Critiquing

[Sharon]

I hope I'm in the right place to ask this. So here it goes.
I don't know if it's a woman thing or what, but I don't know how to go about telling someone what I think about their picture and do it honestly. I'm not an experienced photographer. But I do have tons of material on the subject and know what is good and isn't. Even if I can't achieve this myself, I sometimes feel that I would like to give my point of view, on say for instance lighting or composition. But I just can't do it. How does one go about doing this without worrying about hurting someone or worrying that they'll be upset about it and get defensive?

[Pekka]

Sharon,

In Finland we are used to giving feedback without any "decorations" - if we think something sucks we say it - for us it's sometimes more difficult to say something is good rather than it's bad! I suppose in US it's vice versa, people seem to say bravo to very shallow performances and mediocre achievements, because they think all positive feedback will give you more strenght and bad feedback is not constructive. Tell me if I'm wrong here.

So part of the problem is cultural.

One part of the problem is that you don't really know anything about people here on the net, their personality can be vastly different from what they write - you just can't know. Don't let this put you down.

My advice is that be honest. You can do it direct and polite way, with humor, solid arguments and knowledge, and if the target takes it in hostile manner it's his/her problem. In feedback forum people ask for feedback, it does mean constant prasising. Honest critique is something I like to give and receive. I don't care to write "well done" if I don't mean it (that's one plus for Finns, what they say they really mean it :) ).

[Sharon]

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you. I won't tell people that I like something if I don't. I just won't say anything or I'll try to find something in it that I do like.

Thanks for your advice.

If anyone gets upset with me, I'll just tell them Pekka told me to. :)

[Pekka]

Sharon wrote:
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you. I won't tell people that I like something if I don't. I just won't say anything or I'll try to find something in it that I do like.
I have noticed that in dpreview samples and galleries forum 'good pictures' get unreserved praising and 'less good' images get nor replies at all. There is nothing in between, discussion which would benefit most all readers and photographers.

If anyone gets upset with me, I'll just tell them Pekka told me to. :)
Then I must add a "kick Pekka" game here. :)

[Curby]

Hi Sharon,
You would be surprised how many people would fully appreciate your honest opinion. I am sure most people post pictures expecting some sort of a nice complement, but others are really expecting to get a detailed breakdown of what could possibly be wrong with a given photograph so they may improve upon their skills. I for one like it when someone tells me about something I have done wrong in a photograph, because I may not have even noticed it. :)

______
Curby

[Sharon]

Thank you, Curby. That's good advice.
Sharon :)

[Rick]

Hi Sharon,

I find that when you offer any type of critique it should contain an honest and complete appraisal of the work. This means comments on the positive and the negative aspects if any. There is always something in a photograph that is of worth to some viewer and it is the responsibility of the critic to assist the artist in bringing out their best. Remember, a person would not have placed the image for critique if they didnt see something in it they were proud of.

When critiquing via the net it is especially important to realize that the printed word lacks all vocal and visual stimuli usually present in a face-to-face conversation. This means that the term tact should be foremost in a persons mind when writing a web or printed critique.

I find that to critique properly one should always offer a work around, solution or alternative for every negative point brought up. At the very least the artist should be guided to where they may find some answers to the questions the negative comments raised.

It is also crucial to determine the venue for the critique; some people place their family pictures or vacation trip images, which especially strike them as wonderful up for critique. These images can contain a tremendous amount of sentimentality to them and should be judged accordingly. I suggest that the standard of judgment of any type of work must be dictated by the venue for which it is intended.

Great Question and Topic by the way!


Rick

[Sharon]

Hi Rick,
Thank you for taking the time to write such an informative reply to my question. You've given many helpful suggestions to guide me through the process.
I really appreciate it.
Best Regards, Sharon

[Leo R]

Hi all. I am new to this forum and also to digital photography. I will not likely be posting any photos for comments for a while as I'm still learning how to use my Pro 90. I feel that after I am comfortable with the technical aspects of using the camera I will be able to concentrate more on the artistic aspects.

In the meanwhile, I look forward to viewing the artistic endevours of others and learning from any critiques posted. I took 50 pictures today just to familiarize myself with the aperture priority mode. The pictures are not great but the 2 hour hike through a beautiful cedar woods was good for the soul--spring and sunshine at last.
;)


Leo

[James]

Hi Group,

I think the Forum is a great idea, and constructive critiquing should be a part of it. But I also recognize that some of us like Leo R and myself are new to Digital Photography and others are professionals with years of experience and training.

Pekka, perhaps an Icon that displays the experience level of the photographer would help. For example, Leo and I are new to this so we could be critiqued as enthusiast, and others could who are profesionals can be critiqued accordingly.

This way when the photos are displayed the viewer immediately knows how to base thier judgement.

The one area that I do agree with is honesty, I feel we all must be honest with each other.

James

[Greg]

Hi everyone,

I too am new to digital photography. I have only had my Pro90 for 8 days, 4 of which I was sick and did nothing with it:(

I am still at the stage of learning how to use the camera. I have already made the mistake of shooting with ISO on 400 (in a low light situation) which was practically useless due to the noise.

I have also manually set too low of a shutter speed which resulted in blurry pictures, been so fascinated with the subject action in the LCD that I forgot to press the shutter release the rest of the way to take the picture:), etc.

However, all of these mistakes resulted in new knowledge which is useful. The beauty of digital is that this feedback is instant. I hope to post some pictures here next week for honest feedback (just be gentle:) after I feel better and learn more about the camera.

The azaleas, dogwood etc. are blooming in our yard so I hope to get my 500D soon for experimentation with close ups.

Thanks for creating this forum, Pekka. Looking forward to spending more time here. Take care everyone and happy shooting and posting, Greg

[Thom]

Pekka wrote:
Sharon,



My advice is that be honest. You can do it direct and polite way, with humor, solid arguments and knowledge, and if the target takes it in hostile manner it's his/her problem. In feedback forum people ask for feedback, it does mean constant prasising. Honest critique is something I like to give and receive. I don't care to write "well done" if I don't mean it (that's one plus for Finns, what they say they really mean it :) ).



Pekka ... you seem to have a double standard. Polite and with humour??? do you recall your first post to me on usenet? Totally out of line and accusing me of intentionally trying to show the G1 in a bad light?

I quote:

"Are you joking?

On ribbon picture you shaked G1 so well it can't focus (which btw
seems to be nigh to impossible to go with G1). It seems in every
picture you have different apertures and speeds in different cameras
(keywords here should be "manual" and "knowledge"!), you do not
mention using ISO at all (50 is G1's main strenght).

Then you say "The image is exposed for the shadows" and complain
"resulting in loss of blue sky"? Notice any problem with this sentence
my dear Watson? Why E10 was not exposed for the shadows (answer: you
needed to show E10 had better sky colors).

"Both images shot at approx same focal length and aperture".
Your pictures say approx nothing because you can't get test pictures
with similar exposure. Check the lowest picture pair: E10 exposure is
way different, so obviously its sky will give show some blue color
compared to G1 shot where you took much brighter shot. What you should
have done is to set G1 to lower contrast mode and not measure exposure
from shadows. This way you could have preserved both sky color and
shadow detail.

Notice how blue a sky you can get with E10:
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/olye10/samples/020127-0325-13.jpg
:-)

Color differences will be reality if you don't use excatly same speed
and aperture, and manual white balance (which IMHO should be used in
every shot (which not all cameras like the mistakently praised Oly3030
sadly do not offer).

From all the DC sites I trust Phil Askey the most. He knows how to
shoot, how to review and how to make websites.
http://www.imaging-resource.com is a joke. Shooting posters to test
skin colour - get real! Judging from their resolution charts Nikon D1
renders white as yellow!

See some real photos:
http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/canong1_samples1/

Sorry about ranting, but I'm really tired of all these "comparisons"
by people who are biased (need to justify their purchase) and do not
know even basics of photography.

PS. I do not own G1.

Pekka Saarinen
http://studio-on-the.net" here endeth the quote.

I have no intention of starting another flame war with you, but glad to see you seem to "now" follow your own advice. That hasn't always been the case.

Best of luck with your site, it's a really great service and I'm sure will be succesful. It's ok ... I know you do not value my opinion, that's fine, but just wanted to say anyway that you are very talented web designer and I admire your photography, but personally, I still think you're an obnoxious jerk. I'm being totally honest, as you suggest, and remember your own advise ... "if the target has a problem, it's his problem."

Regards ...

[Pekka]

Thom,

You're critiquing something I wrote about your comparison pages of Oly E-10 and Canon G1. It was not a "please critique my latest photo" thread, it was a hardware comparison debate, where you evaluated cameras by using examples with totally different variables. I did not even own a G1 back then, but the mis-information and you mantras required response and I flamed there. I have a lot of temperament, but normally it will need some kicking to be released. You did it back then.

Thanks for wishes, and yes your opinion of my person can be formed from one usenet thread - but please read the other threads as well.

PS. I was really tempted to press "delete" on your post, but I managed to keep my fingers out of it. :)

[Thom]

Pekka wrote:
Thom,

You're critiquing something I wrote about your comparison pages of Oly E-10 and Canon G1. It was not a "please critique my latest photo" thread, it was a hardware comparison debate, where you evaluated cameras by using examples with totally different variables.

Response: Exactly what lead you to determine that?

I did not even own a G1 back then, but the mis-information and you mantras required response and I flamed there. I have a lot of temperament, but normally it will need some kicking to be released. You did it back then.

Response: What did I do to illicit such a damning post from you, without any previous discussion on your part?I would ask that you would go back to the original site and re-evaluate your misinterpretation of my "mis-information."

http://www.theinnerimage.com/E10/e10-g1samples.htm

You basically jumped me without any questions for clarification of the information at all and accused me of bias toward the E-10. That was not the case. You also accused me of knowing nothing about photography and trying to justify my purchase. Your bashing of my knowledge and experience was based on one visit to a site you clearly misinterpreted, for whatever reason, maybe my point wasn't clear enough, I don't know. As to justifying a purchase, I owned both cameras at the time and was presenting what I found as the differences between the two, with no attempt at fine art or getting into, "if I had applied .5 stop exposure compensation the images would be similarly exposed. " The variables you imply that I manipulated were done by the cameras, not my me. The particular images you call mis-information were both shot at the same aperture and framing. That was my intention, as I stated at the time, if the camera's metering system choose to bias for overexposure, that is what I posted, to show the difference, NOT to justify any purchase. If you note, I also judged the G1 images ultimately superior for a variety of factors, most importantly their film like quality and lack of noise.

Thanks for wishes, and yes your opinion of my person can be formed from one usenet thread - but please read the other threads as well.

Response: I have, and I am sure most of your posts will be very helpful to many, especially those just starting out in photography. The digital medium does require application of advanced technical knowledge, much like shooting transparency film ... techniques such as interpreting the reflectivity of a scene and exposure compensation, which are often lost on those used to shooting negative film and having their mistakes "corrected" by the printing process.

PS. I was really tempted to press "delete" on your post, but I managed to keep my fingers out of it. :)

That is exactly what I expected you to do, why would feel the need to do that? Afterall, "the word is free," right? I applaud your restraint. I apologize, as this is not the place for such discussion, but your comment about being polite and humorous prompted my response. We Americans can also be brutally honest with our opinions, but if you search out my comments on dpreview, robgalbraith, or usenet, you'll find that I do know a little about the subject and I try to be as helpful as possible. I do not normally flame people or pass judgement. If you don't delete my as a member, I would do the same here.

Thank you for your consideration.

[Pekka]

Thom wrote:
That is exactly what I expected you to do, why would feel the need to do that? Afterall, "the word is free," right? I applaud your restraint. I apologize, as this is not the place for such discussion, but your comment about being polite and humorous prompted my response. We Americans can also be brutally honest with our opinions, but if you search out my comments on dpreview, robgalbraith, or usenet, you'll find that I do know a little about the subject and I try to be as helpful as possible. I do not normally flame people or pass judgement. If you don't delete my as a member, I would do the same here.

Thank you for your consideration.


Thom,

Of course I have no intention to delete anyone, you are welcome here as are all. We might have an argument about how to build camera comparisons, and this is what the usenet flame was all about. But that was some time ago. What I suggest now is the we mentally erase all past encounters and start again fresh:

Hi Thom,

I'm glad that you registered on my forum, and look forward to see you here often.

PS. If you need to quote reply excerpts from here and there you can use (quote) and (/quote) tags in block parenthesis (see help on top menu) to separate quoting from text.

[Thom]

Hi Thom,

I'm glad that you registered on my forum, and look forward to see you here often.


Thank you, Pekka.

[Andrei]

Congratulations with reunion, guys !

I read carefully your positive discussion.

Thom wrote:

Hi Thom,

I'm glad that you registered on my forum, and look forward to see you here often.


Thank you, Pekka.

[Eric F.]

My opinion of critiquing is as follows:

(1) If I have posted a picture, your honest comments are welcome and appreciated. As someone mentioned above, offering a solution or suggestion would be better than just saying the picture sucks...
(2) You are welcome to visit my website. Check out the pictures etc. But you should realize that some of the pictures I have placed there are for family and friends, not for the artistic value. I am also not a website builder, it is just a free service which I use to get the photos out there on the web. So the point is, that posted pictures would be more approprately critiqued and unposted web albums should only contain positive comments. This is way I approach photos.
(3) Photos are Photos. Hardware is Hardware. Like Pekka, I have very low tolerance for those who must justify their camera buying decision or feel that they must have better hardware than you. I think that any camera will take great pictures and they all take bad ones.

I hope that this forum can stay away from the "my camera is better than yours" discussions that seem to dominate the dpreview site. Staying on how you can take great pictures, what you did to get that shot, tricks that I uncovered that made that photo look great, is what I visit forums for.

I have learned a great deal from the posts outlined above and look forward to learning a lot more.

REGARDS,
ERIC

[Sharon]

Eric,
Very well said. I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks, sharon

[andreas]

Pekka wrote:
Sharon wrote:
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you. I won't tell people that I like something if I don't. I just won't say anything or I'll try to find something in it that I do like.
I have noticed that in dpreview samples and galleries forum 'good pictures' get unreserved praising and 'less good' images get nor replies at all. There is nothing in between, discussion which would benefit most all readers and photographers.

If anyone gets upset with me, I'll just tell them Pekka told me to. :)
Then I must add a "kick Pekka" game here. :)


Hi,

Well, i think very often also bad photographs get a lot
of praising there. I would prefer if my photos would
receive more constructive critique because i think
this would be great to improve the own skills.

Regards,

Andreas

[koumou]

Want to see Critiquing at it's worst.Take a look of what this guy had to say about my images.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&page=1&message=1102173

Of course not everybody in that thread agreed with him,so that's some comfort there.He,He,He

Koumou


http://members.tripod.com/koumou/

[andreas]

koumou wrote:
Want to see Critiquing at it's worst.Take a look of what this guy had to say about my images.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&page=1&message=1102173

Of course not everybody in that thread agreed with him,so that's some comfort there.He,He,He

Koumou


http://members.tripod.com/koumou/


Hi Koumou,

Okay the initial statement of this guy wasn't very balanced. At least he seems to be a pro and in the further dialogue tried to explain his point of view.

Well, here is another example to underline my point of
view regarding my posting:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1005&page=1&message=1097409

Regards,

Andreas

[Flyguybones]

I am an experiienced freelance photographer i own a pentax manual MX and a cannon digital rebel and I think that when it comes to critiquing someone you sould know what your talking about from experience...not from reading about it in a book. There is no way to tell what something will look like until you actually do it. I think that when you critique someone it should be straight forward if you don't then you arent helping...you are just prolongling their agony. Just give the help its not like you should to feel bad about your opinion.

[Belmondo]

The value of a board like this is as a learning tool. When you post a photograph and invite comment, you should be prepared for the worst. If you're doing it for ego gratification, the proper place to hang your pictures is in 'Share photos.' There's always someone willing to say something good about your pictures over there (criticism is discouraged).

Back to Critique Corner....I've seen comments here from time to time that border on being 'brutal.' This is unnecessary in my opinion, but well within the lincense of being a reviewer. I can't help think that tact is a virtue, and there are always at least two ways to say something.

The greater concern I have is that there is a tendency among some of us to flame the reviewer. I'm not talking about people who become defensive about comments made regarding their own work, but third parties who choose to disagree with a critical review offered in good faith. I've seen people literally throw up their hands and walk away from the forum muttering something like, "I don't need this s**t." There are a couple people who've simply moved on for that reason, and they were valuable contributors to the forum.

Bottom line: it's okay to post negative comments. The fact that a picture has been posted in this board is an invitation for such criticisms. And it's okay to disagree with someone else's opinions. There will rarely be 100% agreement on any subject where subjective analysis is the order of the day.

On the other side of the coin, it isn't necessary to attack anyone personally for their opinions, and it's postively stupid to take offense at someone posting remarks that challenge your own conclusions. As long as it's all done in a friendly spirit and without personal invective, it's just a different opinion and not a personal assault.


.

[martcol]

I have read this thread with intereset and have a few points to make.

Firstly, the critique poster has to take some responsibility for exsposing their shots to the world! I sometimes hold back from posting because of some sharp comments in the past but if I ask people to comment, then I shouldn't complain when they do. Generally here, although sometimes harsh, the criticism is encouraging and constructive.

You get to know those who critique (are they critters?) Watch the way they contribute to other posts and see how they summarise photos. Critique has two (or more) levels. The technical components of a shot and its aesthetic/artistic content or value. With the techie stuff it's good when it comes from people who know. With the other stuff it can be so subjective but it is always interesting to hear what people think.

If I post a photo I can't wait to get back and look at what people say. I would say that no interest is more dissappointing than harsh critique! In fact harsh critique is good (I've learned not to post my Favourite, best ever, special shot!). Good for the soul and good for technique.

Overall then, this is a great forum and feedback is usually good.

Martin

[CyberDyneSystems]

This is a great discussion.. reunions aside... :)

I have always appreciated the fact that this Board has both a sharing, and a critque section...

I must admit I rarely offer any critique here,. I only do so when I think I have something to offer,. and I think that is part of what needs to be considered.

Critique with some sort of generosity in mind.

That does not mean pulling punches.. you can be "brutally honest" at times if the honest truth is inherently "brutal" IMHO.. but there is no reason for the "truth" if there is nothing contructive about it.

Example "This photo does nothing for me"

Brutal and useless..

If there is no ability, or interest to explain what it is about the picture that makes it "do nothing" then why post. It's not that you need to say something "positive" about the image,. it's that we shuld be saying at the very least what it is that went wrong so the photographer can learn from the mistake.

The Critique should allways offer something,. some form of education or alternative.. some idea. Otherwise it is not Critique,. but just insult.

Just my humble opinion... :)

p.s. For posters of images,. we also need to be prepared for the critism!

//and wow,. I just saw how old this thread is,.

[dphoto]

Hello Sharon,

I can't build a car, but I sure can tell you what I like and don't like about particular cars. I'm sure most movie critics can't direct a movie, but they sure can tell you what they like and dislike about a movie. Photography, like any art form, is subjective. When someone posts an image, he or she is asking for your personal, subjective opinion. The poster knows there is no guarantee that your opinion will be favorable. I think the key to remember here is that you are cirtiquing the poster's work, not the poster himself. Be sure to keep your critique to the work itself. Also, you can let someone know that you don't like his or her work with tact (you sound like a nice person, so you probably won't have any problems here). If you don't like something, it's constructive to say why. If you don't know why, be honest, and let the poster know that you don't know why. If you have ideas for improvement, let those be known as well. In the end, remember that someone is asking for your opinion, so if you give it, you are really doing him or her a service.

To be honest, I'd rather get a bunch of replies advising me how to improve a photo rather than get no replies to it at all. And a dialog is always preferable to a simple "good" or "bad". :)

Good luck to you, and get those critiques of yours out there! :) I'll be posting some more photos soon, and when I do, I'll be looking for a critique from someone named "Sharon". :)

-Deva

[CyberDyneSystems]

......I'll be posting some more photos soon, and when I do, I'll be looking for a critique from someone named "Sharon". :)

-Deva

I don't think Sharon has posted anything since August of 2001 :shock: :roll:

[dphoto]

Oh well, I guess I won't be seeing any critiques from her then. :) Nonetheless, I stand by my statments! :)

Thanks CDS,
-Deva