For Sale Forum Requirement suggestion...

[Anomalyi]

Would it be out of the question to consider the idea of requiring a 30 or 90 day membership before being allowed to post in the "For Sale" forum?

I know before, the mods were through with the headache of dealing with excessive postings and said "No more posting in the "For Sale" forum. All transactions should be held privately at your own risk. Eventually, the mods compromised and now allow limited posting with many many rules. The forum seems to be under much better control, but unfortunately, it still attracts scammers.

As a community, we look out for one another. That was one of the arguments I presented when we weren't allowed to post anymore. I had said that we need to be able to look out for one another and warn others when something raises a "red flag" so-to-speak. I think it's fantastic that we get to look out for each other and I think it's very important.

Requiring an account that is active for ~90 days would help deter people from creating an account, posting 15 or 20 times in whatever threads they choose within a few days and then throwing up a $500 - $5000 piece of equipment, waiting for some sucker to come along and send a money-order their way. It would also deter fools from starting threads that advertise their scam-site, like I saw a few days ago.

This certainly isn't something that's absolutely necessary, but it would act as sort of a spam filter. As we all know, they aren't 100% (nothing is) but it certainly help weed out some annoyances and create more time for the mods to focus on more important things, rather than deleting scam posts and their associated account.

Regardless, keep up the good work guys.

Thanks.

[Jeff]

I'll second the request.

If time and post limitations can be imposed to avoid idiotic comments in the Glamor & Nude forum, it can and should be done for the For Sale/Wanted to Buy forums.

I'd rather endure some childish comments than see someone get taken for any amount of hard earned cash.



Regardless, keep up the good work guys.


I'll second this too. Love the forum

[slappy sam]

I agree. Makes total sense, and its already been done with the g+n forum.

[Jon]

So someone registers and then comes back in 60, 90, whatever, days with 0 posts, or 600 "Nice Duck"s, and you still don't know any more than you did Day One?

[Anomalyi]

Of course.

There will always be people that are willing to wait 3 months to dupe someone on a photo forum, but there's a lot more that won't.

3 months is a long time and a lot of work just to potentially throw away that one shot that probably isn't going to work out anyways. Will they remember the site 3 months later? Will they make any posts in that 3 months time to get to know others in the forum?

You could always make the change and then write a script that sends them an email reminder in 90 days specifically reminding them they can now attempt to rip-off an unsuspecting POTN member. --yes, I feel good about that. That helps about as much as your constructive comment.

Kids are always going to potentially grab two pieces of candy out of the bowl on Halloween, but at least there's less likely a chance if you're standing there, rather than sitting a bowl unattended on your door-step...

:rolleyes:

[Pete]

It doesn't matter how long or how many posts you'll impose on a potential seller.

If someone has the intention of ripping something off to the tune of several hundred (or thousand) dollars/pounds/whatever, then there's nothing to stop them spending time in grooming member here and pumping up their reputation.

Patience is always a virtue, especially when you have nothing to lose and plenty to gain.

[cdifoto]

If I have something to sell, I want to sell it right away, not 90 days later.

[_aravena]

^Then you'd find somewhere else to do it. People sell camera equipment all the time without using POTN. Do you think we actually make up a noteworthy percentage of camera sales? If someone wants to sell they can join and provide some valid posts and perhaps PM a mod. Obviously by some I mean a good amount. If people want to rip someone off, that's what's ebay and craig's list is for when they get here and realize they have to wait. Maybe they'll realize that this site is smart or takes up too much time to bother trying.

I'll motion for this as people always ask for something from the seller to prove reputation and these people sometimes have nothing and worse say very little. Look at all the people buying from rip off sites even with Resellerratings occasional awesome comments on them. It's a good deter.

[cdifoto]

So basically what you're saying is, you want to turn legitimate new sellers away because you cannot or will not exercise common sense.

[_aravena]

I never said I wouldn't like the genius you obviously are, I said to help those that don't. Not all fools need taken advantage of. No common sense, oh well, , that's what I get from you.

Doesn't matter to me personally though.

[Jeff]

For a legit seller it's a small price to pay ... for a scammer it's a bigger inconvenience. Haven't you heard that car thieves will move on to another car when there's the smallest bit of deterance? It's just easier to get the next car. Why spend the extra effort on this one. Same theory here.Sure you're not going to prevent everything. That's not the assertion. I'd think too that once you made x number of posts over x number of months a potential buyer can tell if you're just the "Nice Duck" kinda person or one with constructive comments and questions.So back to G&N. Is there a real need to secure that? Other than just avoiding childish comments? I see those every day in tons of threads.Here's a question: Could POTN eventually get the reputation of a scammers paradise? These guys email their buddies, create new accounts for free, sell, scam, run for the hills? Do it again the next day. Sounds alot like the problems eBay is having now. Just open a new account an scam at will.Yes I'd want to sell my stuff today too not 90 days from now. But I think it's worth it to the seller to build a little bit of a reputation too. And does the pain to a few outweigh the benefit to many?
Sorry about the blob, my neatly formatted paragraphs went away somehow.???

[tommykjensen]

For a legit seller it's a small price to pay ... for a scammer it's a bigger inconvenience. Haven't you heard that car thieves will move on to another car when there's the smallest bit of deterance?

Thats not the same. The car thief is out in the open and the longer he stays there the bigger risk he is running getting caught. A forum member is anonymous and it does not matter how much time he use to prepare for a scam.

[helkat]

The other forums that I am a part of (that are not photo related) have a minimum post count AND a minimum length of membership before you can sell an item and before you can even view the ISO forums (to avoid potential scamming of member who have ISOs via PMs).

[eddarr]

It's simple though. POTN simply offers a location for commerce to takes place, it does not determine if a buyer/seller is legitimate. I agree that time and post count does make me feel better but it is a false sense of security. This is not ebay, if a person can't use their best judgment then I suggest they purchase only from Best Buy.

I think Pekka has made it pretty clear that other forums do not affect the manner in which this forum is managed.

[orisky]

a 100 post minimum was suggested in this thread as well, and quickly shot down.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=458652

[Karl C]

Sticky (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=423244)

All transactions are between the two parties involved. As stated previous in other threads, POTN is not and will not be responsible for managing any online sales and will not get involved in disputes.

Skip said it eloquently... (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4996487&postcount=5)

[orisky]

It's not about asking the forum owner to take responsibility for a transaction. It's about deterring the quick scam artists from doing a hit and run on the Sell forum. Just my opinion.

[DAMphyne]

I've got something you just have to have.
Just put your money in an envelope and send it to this P.O. box.
You know I'm safe, I have over 1000 posts.

[ssim]

As a community, we look out for one another. That was one of the arguments I presented when we weren't allowed to post anymore. I had said that we need to be able to look out for one another and warn others when something raises a "red flag" so-to-speak. I think it's fantastic that we get to look out for each other and I think it's very important.

I beg to differ on the whole looking out for each other. How can we do that. For those of us that actually use our real name and can be easily found there is no issues. It is those who want to use handles that they can hide behind that bothers me and I learned a lesson on here, albeit a small one.

I received a pm from a person that had been on here for a long time and had over a thousand posts at the time. They were interested in a couple of my pictures to hang in their house. This was awhile ago and I was somewhat naive and agreed to email them jpg's for the images in question and they would send me a check. Suffice it to say that the money never was never sent and the member just refused to reply to me even though she continues to post here. I would love to post her name in an effort to protect others from the same scam but I haven't. I did receive a real name (supposedly) but when I started to Google this name in Las Vegas, where she lives according to her profile, it was an impossible search as there were too many possibilities.

I don't possibly see how we can look out for each other on here unless we can post those names of the undesirables, even if they happen to be long time and high post members. There is a fallacy in that mindset that someone that has been here for awhile and has "x,xxx" posts are trustworthy.

I have bought from the buy and sell here but only after researching the OP. I personally feel that it should just be "buyer beware".

[Jeff]

I would love to post her name in an effort to protect others from the same scam but I haven't. I did receive a real name...

So why not put a comment in the feedback forum using her username? That wouldn't be considered flogging or anything, just relating the facts of what happened. She could respond if she cared to.

Either way, members looking to do business with her in the future will have the info to consider.

[tommykjensen]

So why not put a comment in the feedback forum using her username? That wouldn't be considered flogging or anything, just relating the facts of what happened.

It is still negative feedback which is not allowed.

[orisky]

There is a fallacy in that mindset that someone that has been here for awhile and has "x,xxx" posts are trustworthy.


Once again, I am not saying that X posts = trustworthy. My suggestion is to weed out the hit and run artists.

[tommykjensen]

Once again, I am not saying that X posts = trustworthy. My suggestion is to weed out the hit and run artists.

It won't help.

If someone see an oportunity to make a few thousand dollars by posting x number times and spend x number of months here then that is easy money.

[photoguy6405]

I think the idea sounds good, but I don't think it'd be effective much at all.

[Jeff]

It is still negative feedback which is not allowed.


Wierd, didn't realize that. What would be the point of have positive only feedback? Along the same lines as the arguements above, someone with x number of positive feedback wouldn't be any more trustworthy than someone with none.

If all feedback was allowed a potential buyer/seller might get a better idea of who they're dealing with. And isn't that a point? For each side to try to confirm the legitimacy of the other?

[Karl C]

Wierd, didn't realize that. What would be the point of have positive only feedback? Along the same lines as the arguements above, someone with x number of positive feedback wouldn't be any more trustworthy than someone with none.

If all feedback was allowed a potential buyer/seller might get a better idea of who they're dealing with. And isn't that a point? For each side to try to confirm the legitimacy of the other?

For one simple reason - it could lead to slander and wrongly accused members.

[Skip Souza]

Wierd, didn't realize that. What would be the point of have positive only feedback? Along the same lines as the arguements above, someone with x number of positive feedback wouldn't be any more trustworthy than someone with none.

If all feedback was allowed a potential buyer/seller might get a better idea of who they're dealing with. And isn't that a point? For each side to try to confirm the legitimacy of the other?
Are you familiar with the adage; "Damned by faint praise."? If no one is saying anything good about a trader it may just be because there is nothing good to say. :p
Each individual is responsible for his own transaction. He should be diligent in his research. Engage in probing conversations with the prospective trader and only then invest in the trade.
There have often been complaints that either members here or outside vendors were offering too good to be true prices then reneged on the deal. What did they expect? One member was quoted such a price then complained about the condition of the item. In his complaining post (long since deleted) he acknowledged "well I guess that is what happens when you only pay $xxx for an XXX (about half the going price).
The scam only works if the victim is an active participant. The victim must want the deal so badly that they are willing to overlook all the warning signs.

[Karl C]

The scam only works if the victim is an active participant. The victim must want the deal so badly that they are willing to overlook all the warning signs.

Sadly, no matter how many times you post suggestions like that, someone will allow themselves to be scammed then they'll complain that POTN should have "safeguards" implemented.

It's not rocket science...

[Woolburr]

What ever happened to buyer beware?

[orisky]

Ok folks. Let me restate my point one more time. It's not about asking the forum to get involved in a transaction or to take any responsibility for a deal gone bad. My SUGGESTION is merely to put a simple change in place that *may* prevent an unsuspecting buyer from doing a bad deal. Some of you may say, who cares, buyer beware, blah blah. That's not me. There are alot of great, nice and helpful, but gullible people here. I'd hate to see one of them get scammed. One time I PM'd a lady just to warn her about a suspicious person who responded to her WTB ad.

Again, NO, having 800 posts does not make someone nice. However, I would highly doubt that a certain type of scammer, those that go around to multiple forums, craigslists, etc to post dishonest ads, would necessarily invest the time to make posts and build tenure within a forum. again, this is just my .02 :rolleyes:

[Jeff]

Are you familiar with the adage; "Damned by faint praise."?


Nope, but I understand the point.

He should be diligent in his research.

Diligent in reviewing nothing but positive (or no) feedback only suckers him in more without any negative feedback (if any).

I wouldn't trust comments from the either party when it comes to legitimacy.

The scam only works if the victim is an active participant. The victim must want the deal so badly that they are willing to overlook all the warning signs.

I disagree. I bought a $12 filter wallet [Buy it now price] from eBay. Got the winning email, (so I thought) clicked the link to pay. It took me too a spoof site where my paypal info was stolen. This was an email I was expecting since I used Buy it now.

I caught it quickly enough that I didn't lose anything. But it was through no greed or overlooked signs (~50 100% Positive feedback) that I got suckered. Again, I was expecting to receive this email and pay for the wallet. Only thing I could have done was watch more closely where the link went.

I guess I'll ask what I'm thinking with all due respect for Mods & POTN. Why is there such an attitude of 'we can't stop it so why try".

I think all the comments and suggestions are by people trying to make this a better place and to try to look out for each other. No one is suggesting that safeguards be put in place so we can shut off our brains when we log in.

[S.Horton]

If POTN sold 'verified' status to members, whereupon not just e-mail but physical address and more was phone validated, even that would not completely stop a determined, skillful scammer.

If you're uncomfortable here, try B&H, KEH.COM for used gear, ADORAMA.COM for used gear.......

[Karl C]

I think all the comments and suggestions are by people trying to make this a better place and to try to look out for each other. No one is suggesting that safeguards be put in place so we can shut off our brains when we log in.

It's also very conceiveable the suggestions you present will have a diametrically opposite effect as to what you intended. By allowing some form of "safeguard", POTN could end up with wrong accused members who then will possibly cause even larger problems for Pekka and the mods. If someone is erroneously accused of scamming, POTN could be held accountable for a failure with the "safeguard". I can completely understand and respect why the current policy is such.

In the end, the best policy is buyer beware. And, as stated by hortonsl62, if someone is uncomfortable purchasing from here, there are plenty of other places to shop.

Be very careful what you wish for because you might get it.

[orisky]

It's also very conceiveable the suggestions you present will have a diametrically opposite effect as to what you intended. By allowing some form of "safeguard", POTN could end up with wrong accused members who then will possibly cause even larger problems for Pekka and the mods. If someone is erroneously accused of scamming, POTN could be held accountable for a failure with the "safeguard".

How would a X post minimum or X months of tenure cause wrongful accusation of members? This is currently in place for the G&N forum.

[Skip Souza]

How would a X post minimum or X months of tenure cause wrongful accusation of members? This is currently in place for the G&N forum.
How would such requirements guarantee safe and secure transactions?

[orisky]

How would such requirements guarantee safe and secure transactions?

When did I ask for guaranteed safe and secure transactions?

[Karl C]

How would a X post minimum or X months of tenure cause wrongful accusation of members? This is currently in place for the G&N forum.

Again, how would this prevent scammers? They'll just wait until the requirement is met. Or maybe someone who's fulfilled the requirement, and has a good track record, decides to scam another member. It's not uncommon with today's internet.

In end, I still maintain the best policy is buyer beware and to pay with a credit card through established channels, such as PayPal/Google/Yahoo. At least with using a credit card, there is some form of recourse if you're scammed.

If someone is that uncomfortable purchasing through POTN (or FM), there are a multitude of other places to buy used gear, such as KEH and B&H.

[tommykjensen]

How would a X post minimum or X months of tenure cause wrongful accusation of members? This is currently in place for the G&N forum.

The requirements for partitipation in the G&N forum has been established for acompletely different reason. To try and ensure that the members behave properly there and don't make inappropriate comments. This cannot at all be compared to the marketplace and it will not prevent patient scammers from joining and participating and then scam. If there were a post/time limit for marketplace some members WILL see that as some kind of approval and think that as long as a member fullfills that they must be honorable members.

[slappy sam]

Again, how would this prevent scammers? They'll just wait until the requirement is met. Or maybe someone who's fulfilled the requirement, and has a good track record, decides to scam another member. It's not uncommon with today's internet.

In end, I still maintain the best policy is buyer beware and to pay with a credit card through established channels, such as PayPal/Google/Yahoo. At least with using a credit card, there is some form of recourse if you're scammed.

If someone is that uncomfortable purchasing through POTN (or FM), there are a multitude of other places to buy used gear, such as KEH and B&H.
True, some scammers will wait till a requirement is met. However, I don't think anyone here is proposing a solution to stop all scamming. I don't think that will ever be possible, however steps can be taken to REDUCE scamming. I don't understand how this is a bad idea. Scammers could come to this site and post 100 times to be able to sell an item. However, that is a lot of work and I'm pretty sure that once they see they need 100 posts they will go to the next forum or craigslist etc. You can't deny that this would reduce the amount of scamming (not that there is currently a lot IMO). You can still maintain (and must) a policy of buyer beware or checking feedback, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive solution to stop scamming, but merely a deterrant. It can't hurt.

[Jon]

Well, we could completely eliminate scamming by closing the Buy and Sell forums right down. Don't think we haven't considered it; they're really more trouble than they're worth, and adding things the Moderators will have to deal with doesn't make them any less troublesome.

[Pekka]

We (mods) indeed have considered adding a membership time and posts limit for Marketplace access. But for many reasons as stated above it has not been made active yet. Basic problem is that there can be no guarantee of any kind made that that a member is honest even if he has posted 100 times and spent 3 months here. Adding a post and time limit may seem as such guarantee, which is and impression we do not want to give to anyone.

Fighting spammers and one-timer scammers will be first done by getting more moderators (soon), so we can quickly remove/close posts which are reported and suspected as scams . We also ask members to find out more of a person who places marketplace ads, before doing any transactions. There is no negative feedback thread, but there is a positive feedback thread in http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28608 and there is nothing to restrict you from using Google to search more info of the person and nothing preventing you posting a query in POTN Market Watch forum in case of doubt.

[orisky]

We (mods) indeed have considered adding a membership time and posts limit for Marketplace access. But for many reasons as stated above it has not been made active yet. Basic problem is that there can be no guarantee of any kind made that that a member is honest even if he has posted 100 times and spent 3 months here. Adding a post and time limit may seem as such guarantee, which is and impression we do not want to give to anyone.

Fair enough.


Fighting spammers and one-timer scammers will be first done by getting more moderators (soon), so we can quickly remove/close posts which are reported and suspected as scams.

This is great. I did not know this was happening. In the past, there was a certain poster who was extremely suspicious, questioned by many, and continued to be suspicious. I had reported this person, yet weeks went by and the post was still up. That was one of the reasons why I felt the need to give my .02 here.

This is a good board with very helpful people, Pekka. Keep up the good work.

[Skip Souza]

Therein lies the rub. We will not ban someone just because they are suspicious. As long as they have not broken any forum rules. (Multiple ID's is a big one) then we will not be kicking them out for being suspicious.

Having said that, being suspicious is a very good reason for an individual not to buy from them. Once again it falls back on the individual to make that decision and accept the responsibility. My fear is that with a time/post count requirement the individual will let his own personal guard down. After all the seller must be OK, he passed the POTN time/post count test. What's to worry?
Absolutely nothing can take the place of personal responsibility.

[Woolburr]

I can't for the life of me understand why a legitimate buyer or seller would have a problem with disclosing their name, address and phone number. If you go to make a deal and someone has a problem with sharing any of that information, it is time to walk away.

[Skip Souza]

I can't for the life of me understand why a legitimate buyer or seller would have a problem with disclosing their name, address and phone number. If you go to make a deal and someone has a problem with sharing any of that information, it is time to walk away.

BINGO!

[Woolburr]

We keep hearing all these arguments about more rules and regulations...why? I don't see it as rocket science.

If I am trying to sell/buy something, the first thing I am going to do is let potential buyers/sellers know that I am for real and I expect the same courtesy from them...

When someone refuses to give you basic information...move on to the next prospect.

When someone gives you bogus information....such as a home address of Philadelphia, PA, a phone number from Seattle, WA and want you to mail the package to their sister in Havana, Cuba....move on.

If you err on the side of caution, you might lose a sale or purchase, but at least you haven't given away your hard earned cash or merchandise to a scammer.

[tommykjensen]

We keep hearing all these arguments about more rules and regulations...why? I don't see it as rocket science.

If I am trying to sell/buy something, the first thing I am going to do is let potential buyers/sellers know that I am for real and I expect the same courtesy from them...

When someone refuses to give you basic information...move on to the next prospect.

When someone gives you bogus information....such as a home address of Philadelphia, PA, a phone number from Seattle, WA and want you to mail the package to their sister in Havana, Cuba....move on.

If you err on the side of caution, you might lose a sale or purchase, but at least you haven't given away your hard earned cash or merchandise to a scammer.

DING DING DING

[Anomalyi]

We keep hearing all these arguments about more rules and regulations...why? I don't see it as rocket science.

If I am trying to sell/buy something, the first thing I am going to do is let potential buyers/sellers know that I am for real and I expect the same courtesy from them...

When someone refuses to give you basic information...move on to the next prospect.

When someone gives you bogus information....such as a home address of Philadelphia, PA, a phone number from Seattle, WA and want you to mail the package to their sister in Havana, Cuba....move on.

If you err on the side of caution, you might lose a sale or purchase, but at least you haven't given away your hard earned cash or merchandise to a scammer.

Okay, I started this thing and I figure I should say something constructive that adds to the 'argument' because this isn't much of a discussion. Pretty much anyone with 2k post count or carries a "mod" tag seems to be opposed to my suggestion, which is fine. I'm certainly not here to tell anyone how to run their forum. Considering the amount of members, forums, traffic, etc... I think you guys are doing a fantastic job and Thank You for that.

The quote above was one of the first comments that stood out and spoke to me. He's absolutely right. There will still be circumstances where even after given all of the requested information, it still won't be enough to prevent fraud. Happens every day on eBay, which requires all of that information and more, in addition to the information given to PayPal. None the less, we all have a responsibility here in the forum to make educated purchases, and if we do not, we are as individuals at fault. We have the opportunity as a community to ask questions pertaining to a member's credibility and the option to report a suspicious thread to the mods.

In all fairness, I was suggesting it not to protect myself or some of the more street-wise members, but for those who are a bit more trusting than they should be and joined the forums and made a purchase in confidence that this is a safe community. I understand that there is no Utopian community and there will always be someone out there trying to get away with 'something'; its human nature. But, I feel like there are much fewer precautions taken to prevent our honest members from being duped than there is opportunity for it.

We all have a choice to be here, to participate here, to buy and/or sell here. I'll do my best to look out for sketchy sales as I'm sure many of you will. Hopefully we'll have some more mods around to help out with that, soon.

Randy-

[S.Horton]

Some lessons come hard, others expensive, a few are both.

I know what you're saying -- I noticed a kid 'trade' gear and get nothing in return.

[Woolburr]

Okay, I started this thing and I figure I should say something constructive that adds to the 'argument' because this isn't much of a discussion. Pretty much anyone with 2k post count or carries a "mod" tag seems to be opposed to my suggestion, which is fine. I'm certainly not here to tell anyone how to run their forum. Considering the amount of members, forums, traffic, etc... I think you guys are doing a fantastic job and Thank You for that.

The quote above was one of the first comments that stood out and spoke to me. He's absolutely right. There will still be circumstances where even after given all of the requested information, it still won't be enough to prevent fraud. Happens every day on eBay, which requires all of that information and more, in addition to the information given to PayPal. None the less, we all have a responsibility here in the forum to make educated purchases, and if we do not, we are as individuals at fault. We have the opportunity as a community to ask questions pertaining to a member's credibility and the option to report a suspicious thread to the mods.

In all fairness, I was suggesting it not to protect myself or some of the more street-wise members, but for those who are a bit more trusting than they should be and joined the forums and made a purchase in confidence that this is a safe community. I understand that there is no Utopian community and there will always be someone out there trying to get away with 'something'; its human nature. But, I feel like there are much fewer precautions taken to prevent our honest members from being duped than there is opportunity for it.

We all have a choice to be here, to participate here, to buy and/or sell here. I'll do my best to look out for sketchy sales as I'm sure many of you will. Hopefully we'll have some more mods around to help out with that, soon.

Randy-

Speaking strictly from a personal standpoint, there isn't anything much sleazier than someone that takes advantage of a fellow enthusiast for the sake of a quick buck. It would be great if there was a legitimate way to prevent this from ever happening, but realistically, there is just no way. Common sense and perhaps even walking away from a few legit deals are the only real ways to combat the problem.

[S.Horton]

There is, actually, if someone wanted to be a market-maker in used gear.

Then the buyer/seller risk is that the market-maker goes bankrupt/corrupt during a transaction.

If such a thing existed, perhaps then people would complain about the commissions.

;}