How to sell unsolicited photos to parents?

[dcsmith40D]

I went to take pictures of a baseball game the other night. I didn't even know if a game was scheduled or who might be playing. As it turned out I knew one of the parents. He said take some pictures of my son and I'll pay you for them. I said you don't have to pay me... There were quite a few keepers.

That got me thinking. What parent wouldn't love to have pictures of there child in action?

The next day, yesterday, I went to shoot my nephew's lacrosse game. The mothers were excited, pointing out their sons for me to photograph. They may not have spoken to me at all if I hadn't been talking to my sister-in law. I took maybe 250 to 300 pictures. They looked pretty good. Not always the best shots but pretty clear. I showed them to my sister-in law and (coach) brother-in law. They started encouraging me to sell the pictures to the parents. I don't really know how. My brother-in law suggested there is a way to upload them to the web for viewing and that I would pass out card to the parents at the game.

I don't know how to accomplish that without them just taking what ever they wanted for free. I would like to be able to help pay for some of the equipment by selling some of the pictures.

Would you folks be so gracious as to help me come up with a plan? I would appreciate any help.

[Jim G]

Perhaps check out a website like Smugmug or similar and use that to broadcast yourself?

[Gatorboy]

1. Get some web space
2. Purchase Photo Cart (http://www.picturespro.com)
3. Get T-shirts with your domain name on it.
4. Shoot away, upload and sell.

[tomd]

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=377273

This thread has some good info.

[jeffscra]

I was in the same boat last year with my daughter playing softball. I had to get the leagues permission to take and post pictures of the kids. So they approved, I put them up on my Smugmug site, password protected them, and then at the games, I handed out a card to the parents with the link to the days action. They could purchase what they wanted from the website. I shot about 400 pictures in each of the 9 games and posted them. All the parents loved the pictures. I'm not sure if its because I am in a very rural town but all the parents liked them but only to look at. Nobody bought anything. So I was a little discouraged about the whole thing.

[poloman]

I do this for equine events.
I post my photos with the longest side 800 pixels.
I use zenfolio premium and have it apply a water mark to every image.
If you don't use watermarks a mildly savvy individual can copy the image file. Some won't try.....many don't know the copyright laws and will try.
Make it clear that you intend to sell the photos and be very personable.

[dcsmith40D]

I'm real green with dslr. I may be getting a little ahead of myself. Before Friday night, two days ago, I didn't even know I could take nice actions pictures. Two events later, one baseball game and one lacrosse game, and I'm "ready" to sell my goods. After reading several posts tonight, I went to join smugmug to post the pictures and try to sell. My wife made it known that she didn't think it was right to post pictures of the kids I took pictures of on the net in order to sell them. She thought it was a little weird. I never thought of it as weird; however, it is other people's children and without their permission. Now, I don't know what to do.

[jb_browneyes]

this ones a bit long, but given your situation you should probably read through the whole thing. very good marketing ideas in here
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=469328

[Mike R]

I shoot sports for 2 high schools. As others have said, you need a web site to post them on and for parents to be able to easily view and order them. I use Exposure Manager and am very happy with their quality and customer service, along with design flexibility
Feel free to check it out. Remember to get professional looking business cards and to have the web site listed on it. You won't get rich shooting only HS Sports but it will pay for gear and more.Also try to find out what others charge in your region and stay in line with those prices. PM me if you have any questions, for some reason I no longer get notified when there is a response to a thread I subscribed to.

[Tumeg]

You could use smugmug, $150/yr (If you want to chose your prices) and then they can buy prints directly from smugmug.... OR you can upload them to flickr (Get a pro account, $25/yr, so people can't steal the photos) and for each game, make a set, and then hand out cards with your flickr url on it, and then they will either have to figure out how to get to their kid's game's set, or you can explain it to them on the back of the card...

[amfoto1]

www.printroom.com (http://www.printroom.com)

$99 a year plus a small percentage of whatever you charge for prints. It's geared for exactly this sort of thing. You get to spend your time shooting... Rather than maintaining a big website, collecting payments (including sales taxes, which you need to send to local/state gov't regularly), dealing with credit cards (which costs a lot of money to do), making quality prints, packaging and shipping them out.

I leave all the money collecting and order fulfillment up to Printroom!

Plus through them I can offer my customers around 65 sizes and finishes of photos (which is actually only about 2/3 of what they offer) as well as a selection of about 25 other items like key chains, coffee mugs, coasters, puzzles, calendars, etc.

To offer this many choices at home would mean a huge investment in supplies and equipment, not to mention learning how to use it all quickly and efficiently!

You'll still need to edit your shots, organize them and upload thumbnails. Printroom provides software that handles creating the thumbnails and uploading them, and manages your galleries online, as well as your images on your computer.

A couple years ago we used SmugMug and the prints weren't good. I have heard from folks recently that they are much improved, though.

There are more features to Printroom, such as means of tracking traffic to your site, but the above are the most important, I think.

There are other companies that offer similar services to Printroom, some of which seem quite good and might do as well.

Get a good, fast workflow and backup in place, ASAP.

For each venue where you might shoot, find out who is the organizing authority, get with them to find out if they have any agreement in place with another commercial photographer already. If so, you can't shoot there and sell the images. If not, sign a contract with them as the exclusive commercial shooter of their events for a year (or whatever). I will not photograph events where I'm not given the exclusive, period. It's just not worth it! In exchange, allow the organizer to use some your photos as a way of saying thanks, and position your online galleries as a convenience for their participants and attendees to browse, with picture purchases optional.

Regarding your concerns about putting the photos out online for anyone to see, this is an important consideration. However, it's not weird, nor is it really your concern. No doubt the event organizer has an injury waiver signed by the parent of each child, before they can participate. They should also be including a clause about photos being taken at the event and made publicly accessible (published, as in posted on the Internet where anyone can view them). This is getting to be a standard clause in the waiver forms at all the events I work with. If not, I certainly would encourage the organizer to include it! It covers them, more than me. No, I don't use passwords on event galleries, anymore than someone would need "a password" to walk up and sit down on the bleachers to watch the event.

Regarding image theft... Just don't put larger than thumbnails online, then there's really not much for people to rip off!

If the organizer has a web page, get them to post a link to your photo galleries on it. This is critical to help drive traffic and sales. Again, allow them to use some of your photos, such as on their web page.

We also sometimes offer onsite printing (for those impulse buyers in the heat of the moment!). This usually doubles sales for most events. People forget to go to your online galleries later, lose your biz card, etc. If you rely only on online sales, I think you leave about half the money on the table uncollected.

However, there's a cost to offering onsite printing, at larger events. First, you need someone to handle the sales and printing for you, because you'll be busy shooting. At a minimum you need computer equipment and a printer, some chairs, a table or two, and perhaps a popup tent. You'll need to print out thumbnail catalogs on the spot for people to look through, or provide a second computer monitor (or several) for them to review your images. A dye sub printer is fastest, but ones that can handle 8x10 aren't cheap. We make do with inkjet, and charge a small premium even though online images have had more editing and tweaking done. We only offer 4x6, 5x7 and 8x10 glossy prints onsite.

You have to weigh the fact that you might double your sales, against the cost of setting up to print onsite.

Later, when editing, do printout thumbnail catalogs of the images, organized exactly the same way your images are online. Take these with you to subsequent events. People love to look through them and often place orders.

I'm looking into an onsite "virtual kiosk", which is more of a self-service set up. It will involve a computer server and several satellites with monitors where people can view thumbnails of the day's shoot (added throughout the day, still working on the workflow for this, though). They can then place an order themselves right on the spot, which is fulfilled later through Printroom. Initially this would probably be in conjunction with onsite printing, but eventually perhaps it could replace it entirely. Of course, there's some cost involved in this, so it's not something anyone should jump into right away!

You probably won't get rich, but it can be a lot of fun and can generate some revenues to buy a new lens or something neat like that. Oh, and someone mentioned being disappointed in sales... well, frankly I think a lot of people are feeling the pinch of gasoline and milk costs, and just being cautious right now. So, sales have been soft the past 6 months or so, but this will vary from one place to the next.

Finally, if you find established event photographers working in you area, it might be a good idea to work with one and learn the business as a second shooter, before jumping in with both feet and possibly going over your head in the proverbial deep end.

It sounds like you have an potentially untapped market, so after you check around for any direct competition before investing too much effort or money, I say go for it!

[EnronRocks]

Ah, my bread and butter. Sports photographs that parents buy....

Here is the list of things to do.

1) Get a Zenfolio and or SmugMug account (I use Zenfolio and love every minute of it).

2) Get to know the kids; find out who plays the most within the first period/quarter of the game/events. Find out who is a ball hog, find out who has a big ego, these kids tend to be only children and their parents buy em up like crazy.

3) Get your name around, hand out business cards, if it is a pay to get in type deal, go to FedEx Kinko's and get some flyer's made for people to pick up when purchasing admission.

4) DO NOT PRINT YOURSELF! God please don't, use an offsite printer that does it professionally. Be it a Walgreen's in your area, or Ez Prints or a online printer. You will find yourself wasting money on ink and paper, print at home unless you have a dye sub printer is pure ignorance.

5) DO NOT DUE PRINT AND SALES ON LOCATION UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MAN POWER AND EQUIPMENT! I have only done this once at a basketball tournament. We shot the pictures and gave our CF cards to a friend of mine that just cropped them as they came in, all I had to do is buy him food, which at a college arena it also broke my wallet. What he did was he would crop them and upload them to Walgreen via the photo feature on their website, within 30 minutes using 1 hour printing our photos were done and I ran to pick them up when he sent me a text. We had 2 photographers in the gym and my friend at the computer, next time I do this I will get someone I know to go get the pictures for me as well. This was a good idea, but only because we had the man power and a Walgreens (Which I consider to be somewhat professional at printing) less than 5-10 minutes away there and back.

7) When you do on site prints, print em all. Print ones that look good to you, try to spend as little time as possible cropping and all that jazz. With the cost of printing and your sale prince you will make enough with the loss of prints not sold.

8 ) Get to know the athletic direct/organizer of the sports event beforehand. Always plan ahead! Send a email saying you will not charge per hour, but will charge per print sold. People love this, which is what you are doing now.

9) Another problem with on site prints if you choose to have a printer there chugging out prints, you need to realize how much dust and what the environment is like. If you are doing this outdoors, good luck with an ink jet, the dust and dirt would be terrible.

10) If it is in a public venue and you see another photographer, do not try to make enemies with him/her. Talk to them, let them know that this is just a hobby and make them think you are taking pictures because you know someone that is on the team. You have every right to be there just as he/she does.

11) Be sure you have enough batteries and CF cards for the entire event. I always take my laptop and external drive and stop dumping photos while there during team swaps, breaks, and warm-ups. Sometimes I have enough time to grab something to eat/drink.

12) Try to have other photographers in your area you know and trust on call just in case you're a too sick to stand up all day. You can then do cropping and such while they shoot, split profits 50/50, sometimes this is a good idea and other times it is not.

13) Keep in mind at some events you do not have to do online prints, just hand out business cards with your future Zenfolio (They kick a**) address on it and have people come to your site to order. If you do get a Zenfolio or SmugMug, get a domain so they do not see the smugmug.com or zenfolio.com crap on your business card.

I am done for now.....

[izatt82]

Ah, my bread and butter. Sports photographs that parents buy....

Here is the list of things to do.

1) Get a Zenfolio and or SmugMug account (I use Zenfolio and love every minute of it).

2) Get to know the kids; find out who plays the most within the first period/quarter of the game/events. Find out who is a ball hog, find out who has a big ego, these kids tend to be only children and their parents buy em up like crazy.

3) Get your name around, hand out business cards, if it is a pay to get in type deal, go to FedEx Kinko's and get some flyer's made for people to pick up when purchasing admission.

4) DO NOT PRINT YOURSELF! God please don't, use an offsite printer that does it professionally. Be it a Walgreen's in your area, or Ez Prints or a online printer. You will find yourself wasting money on ink and paper, print at home unless you have a dye sub printer is pure ignorance.

5) DO NOT DUE PRINT AND SALES ON LOCATION UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MAN POWER AND EQUIPMENT! I have only done this once at a basketball tournament. We shot the pictures and gave our CF cards to a friend of mine that just cropped them as they came in, all I had to do is buy him food, which at a college arena it also broke my wallet. What he did was he would crop them and upload them to Walgreen via the photo feature on their website, within 30 minutes using 1 hour printing our photos were done and I ran to pick them up when he sent me a text. We had 2 photographers in the gym and my friend at the computer, next time I do this I will get someone I know to go get the pictures for me as well. This was a good idea, but only because we had the man power and a Walgreens (Which I consider to be somewhat professional at printing) less than 5-10 minutes away there and back.

7) When you do on site prints, print em all. Print ones that look good to you, try to spend as little time as possible cropping and all that jazz. With the cost of printing and your sale prince you will make enough with the loss of prints not sold.

8 ) Get to know the athletic direct/organizer of the sports event beforehand. Always plan ahead! Send a email saying you will not charge per hour, but will charge per print sold. People love this, which is what you are doing now.

9) Another problem with on site prints if you choose to have a printer there chugging out prints, you need to realize how much dust and what the environment is like. If you are doing this outdoors, good luck with an ink jet, the dust and dirt would be terrible.

10) If it is in a public venue and you see another photographer, do not try to make enemies with him/her. Talk to them, let them know that this is just a hobby and make them think you are taking pictures because you know someone that is on the team. You have every right to be there just as he/she does.

11) Be sure you have enough batteries and CF cards for the entire event. I always take my laptop and external drive and stop dumping photos while there during team swaps, breaks, and warm-ups. Sometimes I have enough time to grab something to eat/drink.

12) Try to have other photographers in your area you know and trust on call just in case you're a too sick to stand up all day. You can then do cropping and such while they shoot, split profits 50/50, sometimes this is a good idea and other times it is not.

13) Keep in mind at some events you do not have to do online prints, just hand out business cards with your future Zenfolio (They kick a**) address on it and have people come to your site to order. If you do get a Zenfolio or SmugMug, get a domain so they do not see the smugmug.com or zenfolio.com crap on your business card.

I am done for now.....


yeah i am going to look into something like this, see what going on for the summer. good ideas by the way

[S.Horton]

I'm real green with dslr. I may be getting a little ahead of myself. Before Friday night, two days ago, I didn't even know I could take nice actions pictures. Two events later, one baseball game and one lacrosse game, and I'm "ready" to sell my goods. After reading several posts tonight, I went to join smugmug to post the pictures and try to sell. My wife made it known that she didn't think it was right to post pictures of the kids I took pictures of on the net in order to sell them. She thought it was a little weird. I never thought of it as weird; however, it is other people's children and without their permission. Now, I don't know what to do.

Ask the coach to introduce you to the league coordinator.

Offer to do a fund raising event.

Get signed, make it official.

Post some photos here for C&C, perhaps?

[EnronRocks]

When I recommend offsite printing I am saving your from this......

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/68Whiskey/Forum%20Images/IMG_0007.jpg

200 USPS Mail Envelopes, 100 Extreme Shipment 100 Standard Mail. I will go through these in 2-3 months. I also charge extra to do this, but people like it because I preview the prints and quality of the print before shipping. I hate doing it though, I have to print them, pack them, print out shipping labels from www.USPS.com and I do one drop off per week of envelopes to the post office. It is a pain in my a**.

It does not cost money to send them, you get the envelopes for free and they are a base rate shipping cost because you can not fit much in there. It costs around $16.00 next day for a envelope and around $4.60 for standard mail. So it is easy to give a shipping cost to people.

[izatt82]

When I recommend offsite printing I am saving your from this......

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/68Whiskey/Forum%20Images/IMG_0007.jpg

200 USPS Mail Envelopes, 100 Extreme Shipment 100 Standard Mail. I will go through these in 2-3 months. I also charge extra to do this, but people like it because I preview the prints and quality of the print before shipping. I hate doing it though, I have to print them, pack them, print out shipping labels from www.USPS.com (http://www.USPS.com) and I do one drop off per week of envelopes to the post office. It is a pain in my a**.

It does not cost money to send them, you get the envelopes for free and they are a base rate shipping cost because you can not fit much in there. It costs around $16.00 next day for a envelope and around $4.60 for standard mail. So it is easy to give a shipping cost to people.

yeah no kidding, i can see why they like it becuase you can preview them, but that is alot of extra time you have to put in. so i guess factor that into your costs

[dcsmith40D]

You guys have gotten my wheels turning. I appreciate the tips. Some of the suggestions seem to be geared to someone with a lot more experience than me. For example get a contract to have an exclusive gig. Wow I sure don't have that kind of confidence. I do want to give people the opportunity to buy the images. If I turned out to get good at this and I could make money at it, I think I would have finally found a job that I would love.

Thanks for the info.

David

[totalphoto]

Check mine, but 4 Canadians....

[jeffscra]

David.....report back and let us know how you make out....

[bobbyz]

Thanks to Alan Meyers and EnronRocks for their very informative replies.

[amfoto1]

Hi again,

Following up here with another 2 cents worth...

David, please don't be intimidated by the contract. It's very much a two-way street and once they understand it most organizers will actually appreciate it and the professionalism you show by presenting it. In exchange for their commitment to give you exclusive right to shoot, you are making a written commitment to be there on time, to do the job to the very best of your abilities, to support their efforts before, during and after the event, and perhaps at future events, and to provide a very real benefit to all their participants.

Of course, you have to follow through on those commitments, too, no matter what, or you simply won't be in business very long.

Plus there are very good reasons besides the economics, for them to very carefully limit the number of commercial photographers swirling around their event. A very big one is safety. Imagine if they left it uncontrolled, allowing any and all who wanted to come in and shoot free access. Some popular events might have more photographers than participants, getting between spectators and the action, stumbling over each other and possibly even getting in the way of the athletes. Yeah, this is a worst-case scenario, but I think you will know what I mean.

Two of us working a large horse show (we usually take turns shooting) last Spring had two additional photographers show up uninvited and try to shoot. All of us working close in and around the arena was clearly not acceptable, posed a greater danger especially to less experienced riders and horses. So I asked the two who did not have any agreement in place to please leave and they did. (Their crew of three or four photographers was there to shoot an adjacent event, so it's not like they didn't have work to do. They just had too many photographers on hand, so tried to edge into our gig.)

While I generally agree with everything else in his post, I have to take strong issue with EnronRocks suggestion #10 - if I understand it correctly:

I would absolutely never misrepresent myself to another photographer or to an event organizer, by saying I was just there just as part of the public, taking shots for fun and my own use... And then surreptitiously make photos to sell.

You won't last long in any business by starting off with a lie, I can assure you. Just last year I saw two big photo vendors (who have a lot invested) get unofficially blackballed from some types of events over just this sort of thing. Organizers know each other and often talk among themselves, call each other for vendor recommendations, etc. So your reputation for honesty, quality and everything else can really make you or break you. Take the high road. It might cost you a few sales today, but earn you more gigs and appreciation in the long run.

So I still say it's best to simply check if there is any sort of agreement already in place between a photographer and the organizer. If not, you're good to go. If so, respect the agreement between the other photographer and the organizer. Note: Even in a public place, organizers can have final say over who comes in to work their event commercially. This is especially true when kids are involved!

Heck, if it's a large event, say if the "official" photographer is just getting a bit weary of shooting that sort of event, or if they're stretched a bit too thin they might even offer you a gig as a second shooter and help you get started in the business. I work closely with a number of other photographers, helping each other out. Eventually you will probably need to, too. So cultivate these relationships. Don't start out by misrepresenting yourself and trying to undercut their business.

Regarding using an inkjet onsite for printing (or any computer equipment for that matter), I really can't think of a much dustier situation than some of the horse shows we have photographed. Yet, we manage to make prints with a $99 6-color Epson . One of these cheap printers lasts us about two years and then needs replacement. We do keep a backup printer on hand, but I don't recall ever using it. Yes, I'd prefer to use a $1400 dye sub printer, for the lower per-print cost and higher speed, but it's just as susceptible to wear & tear, dirt, etc., and is a lot more costly up front.

People are quite happy with the onsite prints, too, although what they can buy online is both less expensive and higher quality. Onsite we feel they are looking for a fast print, not a fine one. At one event last year, one person bought $400 worth of prints in a single sale. (I wish that would happen more often!) But, who knows if that person would have done the same, or suddenly gotten frugal and scaled back their purchase, or bought at all if we'd only offered sales online.

All the more experienced event photographers I've talked with about it have agreed, onsite/impulse sales essentially double your total sales per event, or in other words tend to equal the sales you will make online. Oddly, onsite sales do not seem to draw much away from later online sales, and vice versa. So, overall, if you can do onsite printing, you double your sales. Or, looking at it the other way around, if you don't to onsite printing, you leave about half the money on the table uncollected.

The hard part of onsite selling is keeping the cost of providing the service low enough that you can stay competitive with your print prices. And the most difficult single aspect of this is not the hardware and software, but the personnel. It's not easy to find someone who is skillful with digital image processing and printing, a great sales person, and willing to work for fun, a free lunch and a few bucks! (Note: We charge a little more for onsite prints: +$1 for 4x6 and 5x7, +$2 for 8x10, to help offset the costs involved. This doesn't seem to effect sales.)

Oh, and we always use pre-printed clear labels to quickly put a copyright statement *and* our name/email/website address on the back of each and every photo that's sold onsite. (And my online service prints the same on the back of every print they sell.) There's also a business card slipped into the envelope, and sometimes flyers for special offers, etc.

Finally, if you do this be sure to make some bigger sample prints to display at events. These show the quality of your work and will probably compare very well against what the vast majority of Moms and Dads with compact digital cameras - or, ugh, camera phones - can produce. They are your competition, too, in a sense. Nothing you can do about that but show how your shots are better, to get some sales from them, too. Note that most Moms and Dads shoot from the stands, while hopefully you will be working around the playing field or arena to get better angles on the action.

Have fun!

[izatt82]

this all sounds like really good info. after reading all of this i really think i have an untapped market. i live in a smaller town and as far as i know nobody really shoots the summer sports. I think one guy might already have the high school locked up, but i would be fine with just starting off with summer baseball. who knows I think i will try to make some contacts and see what happens.

great info on this whole deal

[Gatorboy]

200 USPS Mail Envelopes, 100 Extreme Shipment 100 Standard Mail. I will go through these in 2-3 months. I also charge extra to do this, but people like it because I preview the prints and quality of the print before shipping. I hate doing it though, I have to print them, pack them, print out shipping labels from www.USPS.com (http://www.USPS.com) and I do one drop off per week of envelopes to the post office. It is a pain in my a**.

I use WHCC and they offer drop shipping -- it saves you a lot of time and effort.

[Shetography]

Thanks everyone , this has answered some questions i have had for a while but never asked.

[dcsmith40D]

I started an account with Zenfolio and uploaded some photos. I would appreciate comments/suggestions regarding any improvements I could make to the offerings as well as pricing and picture quality.

http://porchshop.zenfolio.com

[izatt82]

i think the only thing i would change right now is the first page you go to has a white background and i think it would be easier on the eyes if it was a darker color. just my 2 cents what do you guys think?

[izatt82]

okay guys, well it looks like i need a new angle. good old small town usa here in my small town has struck again. the photog and the league do not have a contract, he just does them. so do i move on to a differant area? or do i create competition? i figured that something like this was the case, because this town has a big good ol boy network if you know what i mean.

[dcsmith40D]

i think the only thing i would change right now is the first page you go to has a white background and i think it would be easier on the eyes if it was a darker color. just my 2 cents what do you guys think?

I think you are right on target with that. I need to figure out how to change it.

[izatt82]

i would think themes would change it? or maybe go into visitor view

[dcsmith40D]

I changed it. Its better. Thanks

[illm4k3uscr3am]

okay guys, well it looks like i need a new angle. good old small town usa here in my small town has struck again. the photog and the league do not have a contract, he just does them. so do i move on to a differant area? or do i create competition? i figured that something like this was the case, because this town has a big good ol boy network if you know what i mean.

Go after it, give him a run for his money. Competition only powers better performance. You may steal the business from him or make him change the way he does thing for the better.

[dcsmith40D]

The parents have not been as eager to part with their money as I thought they would. I don't have cards yet but did hand out information sheets. The sheets included my name, email address, phone number and Zenfolio address. The last two games have 3 and 5 visits to the respective galleries. I would guess that 2 of each of the visits were from people I know that would not be potential customers. I could understand them not purchasing prints. I don't know why I can't get them to look. I do know that a good looking card would be better than the info sheets.

porchshop.zenfolio.com

[bobbyz]

The parents have not been as eager to part with their money as I thought they would. I don't have cards yet but did hand out information sheets. The sheets included my name, email address, phone number and Zenfolio address. The last two games have 3 and 5 visits to the respective galleries. I would guess that 2 of each of the visits were from people I know that would not be potential customers. I could understand them not purchasing prints. I don't know why I can't get them to look. I do know that a good looking card would be better than the info sheets.

porchshop.zenfolio.com


Why would anyone buy when they can get for free. Please change your settings to disable downloading of original files on your zenfolio account.

[izatt82]

yeah do that for sure, and you have to do it for each gallery

[dcsmith40D]

Oh!

[dcsmith40D]

I fixed it. Thanks for pointing that out. I think I had disabled the download on the first gallery. I didn't realize it needed to be done on for each.

Thanks,

David

[Mike R]

Another thing that you shoud do is to get the Zenfolio name out of you web address, even if you have to buy a domain. When people know your host, they can find out your print costs and mark up. I don't use Zenfolio but I'm sure you can have your own domain. You also want to remove their name from any page it may be on.

[izatt82]

you can buy a domain pretty cheap and then forward it to your other site. i am still working on how to get the zenfolio off the pages

[Mike R]

you can buy a domain pretty cheap and then forward it to your other site. i am still working on how to get the zenfolio off the pages

Just contact them, they probably have an option to turn it off.

[izatt82]

yeah i have been trying to find it before i asked, but i think i will just ask them.

[dcsmith40D]

I went to buy some of my own prints on Zenfolio. I wanted to buy a poster sized print; however, was denied due to insufficient resolution. I knew I had messed up on the first gallery when I took the pictures in sRaw as opposed to Raw. According to the manual, that caused the photos to be 2.5 mpix instead of 10.1 mpix. Even so, not being sure that it wouldn't work, I picked one out to print in poster size. I was not allowed to. So I went to the other galleries and picked one from each. Neither had the required resolution. I don't know what resolution they had, only that the resolution was too small.

What am I missing? Is it because I cropped the photos prior to upload?

Ignorance is a curse.

Thanks for any help.

David

[mattograph]

This is great info.

Thanks to all!

[theyangster]

I went to buy some of my own prints on Zenfolio. I wanted to buy a poster sized print; however, was denied due to insufficient resolution. I knew I had messed up on the first gallery when I took the pictures in sRaw as opposed to Raw. According to the manual, that caused the photos to be 2.5 mpix instead of 10.1 mpix. Even so, not being sure that it wouldn't work, I picked one out to print in poster size. I was not allowed to. So I went to the other galleries and picked one from each. Neither had the required resolution. I don't know what resolution they had, only that the resolution was too small.

What am I missing? Is it because I cropped the photos prior to upload?

Ignorance is a curse.

Thanks for any help.

David

I'm a little confused by sRaw? is that a special feature on the 40d? (I'm pretty sure my xti doesn't have that)

but yes, if you cropped before upping, then you might loose resolution (also depends on your DPI)

did you shoot in raw and then try to up them as raw or did you convert to jpeg/tiff?

I'm actually almost in the same boat as you, getting parents to buy pics is hard thing to do, I'm hoping since I live in a fairly upper-middle class area, parent have a bit more cash to spend

nice pics btw

alex
alexyangphotography.com :)

ps I used domainsite to register a domain, came out to around $9.50 for a year

[Mike R]

I'm actually almost in the same boat as you, getting parents to buy pics is hard thing to do, I'm hoping since I live in a fairly upper-middle class area, parent have a bit more cash to spend

nice pics btw

alex
alexyangphotography.com :)



I find that economics doesn't play much of a part in it. There are a lot of factors. The size of the school along with the fact that some schools don't consider sports important. Are there a lot of parents at the games?, Do a lot bring their own cameras? Are you the only photographer down on the floor or on the sidelines? How is your marking, Do the parents know about you? I shoot for more than one school. In towns which I would describe as you do. In one town I give the booster club a kickback, and the parents know it. Sales are poor. Next year I'm only going to cover Varsity home games. At the other school, I don't give them a kickback and sales are great. They have even bought me gifts as a way to say thanks for being there. This is a larger school. That school has "parent clubs" for each team rather than a booster club and the parents already are calling to lock me in to cover their teams for next year. I'm at the point where except for Football, all I can cover is home games so I can get to all the teas that want me. As more people find out about you, your business will grow by word of mouth. I don't do any advertising and the calls keep coming.

[bobbyz]

I went to buy some of my own prints on Zenfolio. I wanted to buy a poster sized print; however, was denied due to insufficient resolution. I knew I had messed up on the first gallery when I took the pictures in sRaw as opposed to Raw. According to the manual, that caused the photos to be 2.5 mpix instead of 10.1 mpix. Even so, not being sure that it wouldn't work, I picked one out to print in poster size. I was not allowed to. So I went to the other galleries and picked one from each. Neither had the required resolution. I don't know what resolution they had, only that the resolution was too small.

What am I missing? Is it because I cropped the photos prior to upload?

Ignorance is a curse.

Thanks for any help.

David

David, it will help if you tell which picture/gallery is creating problems. I just went to your site and on atleast 2 galelries, I can select 16x20 size, no problems.

[dcsmith40D]

David, it will help if you tell which picture/gallery is creating problems. I just went to your site and on atleast 2 galelries, I can select 16x20 size, no problems.

I appreciate the responses that I have gotten both here and by pm. I had picked pictures from all three of the galleries. I only tried one from each. I was trying to find what I considered perhaps the best ones. Each of the photos that I picked would not let me go beyond 12 x 18. I wanted to print at 20 X 30 just to get their attention.

I don't have time right now; but, I intend to try resizing to see how that would help. Will I be able to tell about the picture quality after the upsize? Or is it a crap shoot?

I don't shoot sRaw only Raw. I didn't understand the implications at the time. I did assume that shooting Raw would solve all issues with large prints. Now I'm thinking my lens is inadequate to shoot such a large field of play. But, damn. I have close to 3 grand tied up in a hobby that I just started about 5 weeks ago. I like to spend money as much as the next guy. The wife isn't so enthusiastic. When I shot the two games last weekend, it was very gray. Overcast is an understatement. I started thinking, I should have spent the extra $800 to buy the 70-200 f2.8. Not $800 dallars but $800 plus the other $950 I spent on the 70-200 f4. Now after finding out I can't crop the pictures I took 75 yards away to help frame the photo, I'm thinking I need length as well as speed. So I was looking at perhaps 100-400 f?. Don't get me wrong I want it all.

[theyangster]

I find that economics doesn't play much of a part in it. There are a lot of factors. The size of the school along with the fact that some schools don't consider sports important. Are there a lot of parents at the games?, Do a lot bring their own cameras? Are you the only photographer down on the floor or on the sidelines? How is your marking, Do the parents know about you? I shoot for more than one school. In towns which I would describe as you do. In one town I give the booster club a kickback, and the parents know it. Sales are poor. Next year I'm only going to cover Varsity home games. At the other school, I don't give them a kickback and sales are great. They have even bought me gifts as a way to say thanks for being there. This is a larger school. That school has "parent clubs" for each team rather than a booster club and the parents already are calling to lock me in to cover their teams for next year. I'm at the point where except for Football, all I can cover is home games so I can get to all the teas that want me. As more people find out about you, your business will grow by word of mouth. I don't do any advertising and the calls keep coming.


Well, let me first state that I shoot for my school's yearbook, having only started in my senior year. You could say I'm one of the only serious photographers who appeared at games and such, sure a few parents bring their P&S, only a few with their DSLRs'. I guess a bit more exposure could help, I did appear at our schools major fundraiser (taste of the town) where I was able to get a lot more exposure.

Good to know that hopefully my base will grow... :)


DCsmith40D-

I've noticed that you've priced your pictures at near base prices, meaning you'll only get 10-20 cents profit per pic no?

On the same token, what is a fair price to charge for school sport pictures?


EDIT- Due to my involvement in yearbook, there is somewhat of an embargo for my sports pics since many have appeared in the yearbook since we obviously want to keep it a secret...

[Mike R]

Shooting for the year book is good. Try to get them to give you credit in the book.Your base will grow, it may just take a season for it to happen. A fair price to charge is whatever the rate is in your area. You need to find out what others charge at other schools. I get $10.00 for a 5x7, $12.95 for an 8x12, $18.00 for an 11x14. The 11x14 is tthe size that the parents club purchase to give each senior on the team. I also offer a "package" of (2) 4x6 prints for $8.00 and it's popular. Most sales are for 5x7 and I never sold an 8x10 so I no longer offer it.

[dcsmith40D]

[quote=theyangster;5262211]Well, let me first state that I shoot for my school's yearbook, having only started in my senior year. You could say I'm one of the only serious photographers who appeared at games and such, sure a few parents bring their P&S, only a few with their DSLRs'. I guess a bit more exposure could help, I did appear at our schools major fundraiser (taste of the town) where I was able to get a lot more exposure.

Good to know that hopefully my base will grow... :)


DCsmith40D-

I've noticed that you've priced your pictures at near base prices, meaning you'll only get 10-20 cents profit per pic no?

On the same token, what is a fair price to charge for school sport pictures?

Yes you are right. I can't give em away. I'm obviously not getting people to the site, at least not the target audience. I've gotten a few friends to look and some of you good people. But, I don't think the teams have even visited the last two galleries. I base that on the specific visit count on individual photos. The ones on the first page of the gallery have 6 or 7 visits while the ones on the subsuquent pages only 2 visits per photo. In other words, they weren't interested enough to look and see if their own picture was there. Thus, I'm saying no team members even looked. Any 13 year old kid will look through the whole 85 or so photos just to see himself. It's my fault; I still don't have cards.

I really don't know where to start with a card design or I'm too lazy to get it together.

[Mike R]

A card doesn't have to look like it was designed by a graphic artist. A simple white card with black lettering is fine. I chose a 'linen" type card with raised letters and like it more than my previous card with a mountain/sunset landscape on it. Choosing a nice font was the most difficult part.
Think about this, If someone doesn't like the graphic or image on your card, they may not bother checking out your site. If you go to Staples you can get a basic card the same day.

[Gottria]

Funny, this is the first year I started to sell photos of sports and I started just as described here on this posting. I noticed that the local Little League didn't have anyone shooting at opening day, so I started to take some random shots. Two days later our head coach sends me an email saysing that the league has contacted him asking for my pictures. So I sent and email to the president of the Little League and offered my pictures to the league at no charge as long as the league uses them for their site only, leaves my watermark on it and can provide a link to my site. I'm working out a contract wiht them that I also will be the only photographer at their yearly baseball tournament and playoffs. Now I need a rough draft for a contract, anybody have one???

Greg
www.CVphotography.net

[dcsmith40D]

Nice pictures Gottria. I only tried baseball once. That's what gave me the fever. Here's a couple of mine.

[Gottria]

Nice shots dc. Baseball is nice and easy shoot IMO. Basketball and scoccer, well that's for another post.

http://www.pbase.com/gottria/image/94512141.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/gottria/image/95125010.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/gottria/image/94512479.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/gottria/image/94552784.jpg


I upload at a small size and 72dpi, I was told if somebody does copy the image the prints will look like crap.
Image #2 is sliding into 2nd base, so I had to crop quite a bit, plus I think it's the compression makes it look a bit off.

[amfoto1]

I agree with Yangster.... your prices are way too low. You need more profit per pic to make it worth your while to go shoot.

If sales are not happening, prices have nothing to do with it. You just aren't getting the traffic. I've had some galleries exceed 2500 visitors, but most probably end up around 250-300 after being online a while. You know what you need to work on!

First, regarding pricing, for online orders I charge:

Wallets: $10

3x5.5, 4x5 & 4x6: $7

5x7 & 6x9: $10

8x10 & 8x12: $20

These are the sizes I sell the most of, in a choice of border or borderless, glossy, luster or matte finish. It's rare for people to order larger.

Larger size prints I offer, but seldom sell:

9x12, $25
10x15 & 11x14, $30
12x18, $40
16x20, $45
16x24, $50

Conversions to B&W or sepia, printing on metallic paper, are available at slightly higher prices. I've sold some other products such as key chains, coasters, mouse pads, calendars, etc. I haven't sold, but have available printing on canvas, too, very pricey!

Oh, and there's also a bit of a surcharge for onsite printing, to cover the extra costs involved. But that's another discussion topic and we only offer 4x6, 5x7 and 8x10 glossy onsite.

I've seen some other photographers charge a little less, some a little more for event/sports photography prints. But usually not anything radically different. If you underprice too much "just to get started", you will create an image of a "bargain" priced photographer in customers minds, and have a very hard time ever switching to a more sustainable price model!

My biggest display print sample that I use onsite is 16x20". I'm not sure a 20x30" would be necessary, although I think I know what you are trying to do with it. But, don't shoot sRAW or JPEG if you want high quality prints that big. I sent you a response to your PM, some ways you can res up smaller images. For that sort of thing, I size it myself in Photoshop, put it on a CD and take it to the Wolf Camera that's three blocks from my house. They'll output a 16x20 on their Epson 7300 for $19.95. It's okay, but I had trouble calibrating to their color profile, although they say they are using Epson inks and luster paper (not my favorite).

To get attention at the events, instead I'd recommend a big banner. I got a 1.5 foot by 5 foot banner printed at Staplesthat says "EVENT PHOTOGRAPHY" in bright colors and large enough to see from anywhere around the arena, for about $60. This is designed to hang on the front of a portable table I use, on which I place lot's of merchandising info and catalogs of past events.

Some people get t-shirts made with "Event Photographer" in big letters on the back. But I'm pretty hard to miss even without one... I nearly always have a photo vest on, usually a small bag with extra stuff, and two cameras with flashes and big zooms hanging off my shoulders.

http://photos1.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/d/6/f/0/event_2335024.jpeg
Photo courtesy of David Yu.

It's not visible in the photo, but I also have a very official looking, brightly colored name badge with my photo, signature and "Event Photographer" on it. I just made it up in Photoshop! It looks impressive though! ;-)

Oh, and by the way, the "photo vest" is a $15 fishing vest from Walmart. It's lighter weight than a "true" photo vest I used to use. Perfect to hold what I need with digital cameras, too: Lot's of pockets for batteries, extra CF cards, etc.

Something that I have at my display table is an email notification sign-up sheet. There are several clip-boards with these sheets, where people can give me their email address if they want to be "the first to know" when the images are up online for viewing.

Regarding business cards, you can get blank ones at Staples or just about any office supply store and print up your own at home with any inkjet printer. Avery has free formatting sheets on their website, although for something as standard as business cards are probably already pre-loaded into a lot of software like MS Word.

One suggestion if you make your own biz cards, don't get the matte finish ones. If they get wet, the ink will run and they are illegible (don't ask me how I know!). Get the glossy cards instead, they hold up better if they get damp, but are a little more expensive and limit you to printing only on one side. They also look less homemade!

Now, I don't shoot school sports, but I would think that getting the participants - the kids themselves - looking at the images and bugging their parents, would be the way to really get traffic going strong. Most kids are more tech savvy than their parents, anyway! I'm not sure how best to get the kids looking at, and wanting prints of, their photos... Maybe some others can share what's worked for them.

I'm not familiar with Zenfolio, but can you turn off the larger image display option? I think the image displayed in the slide show is large enough. It was about 4x6 on my monitor. I'd not put any larger view on there.

Using Printroom, they provided software to reside on my computer, which prepares web ready jpegs, uploads them and manages galleries. It automatically converts images to small 72dpi files, that I know won't produce decent prints even if someone does manage to steal one.

Because of this, I stopped bothering with the "Proof" watermarks like you are using, or even the optional copyright warning at the opening of the galleries. I think both these send a subtle negative message to my clients, "I don't trust you". (Note: There's a copyright notice on the back of all my prints that go out from Printroom.)

I also use Photoshop to produce printed thumbnail catalogs of each event (12 to a page, 240ppi), to take to the next event so people can leaf through them. These get a lot of viewing at equine events, and generate more sales for me... I don't know if the same would be true at school sporting events.

Speaking of which, if you shoot RAW you only need to partially post-process the images to get them online for people to see. A week ago Sunday I shot about 700 photos at a horse show, and then sorted and edited that down to just under 450 "keepers" to post online by Monday evening. I use Bridge and Adobe Camera RAW to edit batches of 40 or 50 images at a time, just saving my settings on each image. I can do so much in Bridge (and some other similar softwares) that it allows me to avoid any more extensive, image-by-image final tweaking until and unless a print is ordered.

I then just run Photoshop Image Processor to convert all the RAWs to JPEGs as a single, large batch. Finally I sort them into several folders/galleries to make them more convenient for customers to view online. I then just use the Printroom software to generate the JPEGs and do the uploads.

I used to go through image by image, and spend 3 or 4 very long days doing what now takes me about 6 to 8 hours total.

One last thing... Some interaction with participants and parents is important if at all possible. In between the action, I try to chat with as many participants and audience members as I can, and almost invariably I find those are the first folks to come by my web galleries and place print orders! Some photographers seem to stand off and "just do their thing" quietly and with little interaction. But I find schmoozing works better for me!

[dcsmith40D]

Thanks Amfoto for all that information. I never cease to be impressed with how generous a lot of the photographers are here. I didn't know if photographers had their own tight net club so to speak, that would be tight with information. However, my experience here has been very encouraging and I'd say rewarding. Thank you.

David

[dcsmith40D]

I changed a few things that you had suggested. I raised the prices, got rid of the Zenfolio Logo, I got rid of the water mark and I added a picture to represent the "Porch Shop."

http://porchshop.zenfolio.com

[illm4k3uscr3am]

I find that economics doesn't play much of a part in it. There are a lot of factors. The size of the school along with the fact that some schools don't consider sports important. Are there a lot of parents at the games?, Do a lot bring their own cameras? Are you the only photographer down on the floor or on the sidelines? How is your marking, Do the parents know about you? I shoot for more than one school. In towns which I would describe as you do. In one town I give the booster club a kickback, and the parents know it. Sales are poor. Next year I'm only going to cover Varsity home games. At the other school, I don't give them a kickback and sales are great. They have even bought me gifts as a way to say thanks for being there. This is a larger school. That school has "parent clubs" for each team rather than a booster club and the parents already are calling to lock me in to cover their teams for next year. I'm at the point where except for Football, all I can cover is home games so I can get to all the teas that want me. As more people find out about you, your business will grow by word of mouth. I don't do any advertising and the calls keep coming.

To say economics is not a part is incorrect. I can live in East St Louis, and take pictures at a school that has 5,000 kids, but since their parents can not afford to pay the electric bill and rent, they can not buy a picture no matter the cost.

I would have more luck moving to a private school with less than 100 students.

So far for this baseball season (Started March 13th) I have sold $475.19 worth of 4x6's and 5x7's, nothing lager than that. Now dance season made me profit the most this year, I sold roughly $1,000 worth (Minus printing costs; This was done before I bought a Zenfolio). I need to get a more precise plan for cash payments, I guess carry around a receipts book or something.

[AdamC]

you can buy a domain pretty cheap and then forward it to your other site. i am still working on how to get the zenfolio off the pages


What zenfolio account do you have? This is a feature of the Premium account.

[dcsmith40D]

I have the premium account. I don't feel like I have a good understanding of what owning my own domain means. Does it mean you just own a name and thus forwarding to another site is all it does? When I say "all it does", that might be plenty. I don't have a handle on it.

[bobbyz]

I have the premium account. I don't feel like I have a good understanding of what owning my own domain means. Does it mean you just own a name and thus forwarding to another site is all it does? When I say "all it does", that might be plenty. I don't have a handle on it.

You get your own domain name like say XyzPhotography. Then you make small changes in your zenfolio and all will set for you. THen when people go to XyzPhotography.com they will go to your http://porchshop.zenfolio.com/

Customers won't see porchshop.zenfolio.com in their address bar.

Look at my zenfolio site in my signature.

[inthedeck]

Very good info. here. I've been thinking about the same thing...and finally got to go to a kids' game the other day. I even know people there, but, haven't heard from the League President yet...so, let's hope that happens soon. Until then, I'll have time to practice taking more shots, when I have free time.

Here's to success!!! :wink:

[illm4k3uscr3am]

I have e noticed though; some customers notice a performance difference with my Zenfolio site when using my custom domain at certain times compared to my brinkerphoto.zenfolio.com one.

[dcsmith40D]

Okay, I got the domain set up. I added it to the signature.

[dcsmith40D]

Had first sale. Wow, I'm in business now.

[Mike R]

Had first sale. Wow, I'm in business now.

Congrats on the first sale! I looked briefly at your site and suggest you have the Zenfolio name removed from the bottom of the page. Customers can find out what your mark up is. If they can, they will, and regardless of what the markup is, some people will complain and it can hurt sales.

[mattograph]

You know what would be really great? If the OP could turn this into a poll, asking "What company would you recommend for family shooters". It would be great to get a quick summary of who folks are most happy with.

[dcsmith40D]

Congrats on the first sale! I looked briefly at your site and suggest you have the Zenfolio name removed from the bottom of the page. Customers can find out what your mark up is. If they can, they will, and regardless of what the markup is, some people will complain and it can hurt sales.

I did check the "Remove Zenfolio brand from Visitor Pages (Premium feature) " box. It did remove a larger zenfolio label at the top. I don't know that I can get rid of the "hosted by Zenfolio" at the bottom.

[bobbyz]

I did check the "Remove Zenfolio brand from Visitor Pages (Premium feature) " box. It did remove a larger zenfolio label at the top. I don't know that I can get rid of the "hosted by Zenfolio" at the bottom.

You can't.

[PhotosGuy]

If the OP could turn this into a poll, asking "What company would you recommend for family shooters". Start a new thread & put a link here.
Or refer to these:
What image hosting/online sales program do you use? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=393106)

What are you using to sell prints online? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=391298)

online hosting and selling (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=99121)

[dcsmith40D]

Update: I have sold a grand total of $97 worth. In so doing, I have made several trips to the playing field @ 14 miles to the gallon, rented the 70-200 F2.8 lens + 1.4 teleconverter for $48, cards and other expenses. The thing is, I feel good about it to some degree. I'm actually thinking of spending another $48 for the same rental. Boy, I wish I could figure out how to buy that lens without the wife knowing how much that cost. I'm a big fan of 12 months same as cash. I have never been a big fan of saving money for 12 months and then paying cash.

While I am rambling, I should mention that I signed up for photograph classes. In the two classes I've attended, I haven't learned anything new to what I have learned right here on this forum from reading. I have a long way to go I know. The Photography 101 class may not get past what I have learned from reading people like PhotosGuy. My instructor told us that he doesn't want us to shoot raw or in manual mode. I have been shooting almost exclusively raw and in manual mode.

[gravy graffix]

My instructor told us that he doesn't want us to shoot raw or in manual mode. I have been shooting almost exclusively raw and in manual mode.


wow... ok.:(

[dcsmith40D]

wow... ok.:(

I think he doesn't want to deal with it in 101

[cory1848]

dcsmith40D - Thanks for this post, your an inspiration as I am trying to do the same thing as you..

My problems have been trying to get in touch with program directors and people in charge. I shot my first game last weekend with 3 and 6 yr olds...One of the coaches is a good friend of mine and he has tried to get me in touch with the AD but the AD isnt one for returning calls or messages...I havent got written permission yet but have the ok for my friend to shoot his kids. I didnt try to sell anything last game before it was mearly to get my feet wet and to get some promo images but I may start doing that this weekend.

As far as the photo class and not dealing with manual mode, find another instructor...The first things I learned in photo class ( I have a minor degree in photography) was how to use the camera and what all the settings do. Do you start driving a car without learning how to steer, where the gas and brake pedals are, how the mirrors work, etc? I learned the technical stuff first and then apply that to the creative side. Just my 2 cents...

I shoot full manual too but I may experiment with AV this time around...I found myself worrying more about the exposure settings than the composition, and I need to get away from that... I figure if I set the ISO and App, why worry about the shutter speed? Let the camera deal with it...

[dcsmith40D]

dcsmith40D - Thanks for this post, your an inspiration as I am trying to do the same thing as you..

My problems have been trying to get in touch with program directors and people in charge. I shot my first game last weekend with 3 and 6 yr olds...One of the coaches is a good friend of mine and he has tried to get me in touch with the AD but the AD isnt one for returning calls or messages...I havent got written permission yet but have the ok for my friend to shoot his kids. I didnt try to sell anything last game before it was mearly to get my feet wet and to get some promo images but I may start doing that this weekend.

As far as the photo class and not dealing with manual mode, find another instructor...The first things I learned in photo class ( I have a minor degree in photography) was how to use the camera and what all the settings do. Do you start driving a car without learning how to steer, where the gas and brake pedals are, how the mirrors work, etc? I learned the technical stuff first and then apply that to the creative side. Just my 2 cents...

I shoot full manual too but I may experiment with AV this time around...I found myself worrying more about the exposure settings than the composition, and I need to get away from that... I figure if I set the ISO and App, why worry about the shutter speed? Let the camera deal with it...

Thanks for calling me an inspiration; I never would have seen that coming.

I haven't gotten in touch with anyone for permission yet. For some reason I have settled in at one field where lacrosse games have been the norm. I have just started taking pictures of the games. I don't feel good about approaching the parents with business cards or bothering the coaches. I have gotten a few cards made. I do approach the coaches at the end of the game and ask that they pass the information along to the team. I also hand a card out to a parent here and there when they are gathering their kids after the game. Again, I ask that they pass the information to the other team members. I even had one coach ask me which team I was shooting for. I told him both. I explained that the pictures would be available to look at at porchshopphotos.com (http://porchshopphotos.com) and I handed him a card. He appeared excited telling me they would appreciate some action shots. I can tell by looking at my web hosting site very few people have gone to even look at those pictures. I know I am not promoting the pictures well enough. I think the prices may scare a lot of people off.

I tried av mode briefly during one of the games last Sunday. I took a peek after one of the shots and noticed the white shirt on one of the coaches was blown out. I changed back to manual mode. I have mixed results with my manual shots too. But at least its my fault. I don't want to use the camera on an automatic setting and have it screw my pictures up for me. Learning how to shoot more consistently good pictures in manual mode is really what I want to learn. I don't know if I want to spend the money for Photography 102 to find out if it is worth it or not.

As far as finding another instructor, I think the instructor is really pretty good. He is teaching the class to people who have just gotten their slr cameras and don't know anything about how they tick. I'm not there anymore because I've been reading and playing with my camera for 2.5 months. I felt like I wanted to sign up for 102 from the beginning. The sign up sheet stated that 101 was a prerequisite for 102.

[izatt82]

wow... ok.:(


yeah same here I think I would have a hard time paying for that class.

[ndelacova]

This has been a great thread so far. I too have wanted to get into event photography for some time. I made my first sale recently too. A whopping $20.00. I guess I have to start somewhere. I created a webiste where parents from the school can look at events that have passed. I put cheap (beyond reasonable) prices to get my name out there. Yet, only one customer. Many people have often told me that I should do this on the side but no one has ever hired me. I too want to buy more toys but I would like my hobby to pay for itself. I guess the next step would be to print business cards of sort.

Thanks for all the advice/info.

ndelacova

[dcsmith40D]

My total is slowly growing. The season is over for lacrosse. I need to figure out something else to shoot. I want to find something that someone would buy. A friend of mine's mother saw my "website" and suggested I go to her daughter's graduation to take pictures. She thinks I could sell those. I'm not so sure. It is outside around 7:00pm. I may be able to deal with those conditions. I don't feel at all comfortable with in door photos. I recently shot my niece's voice recital last week. It was in a church. The light wasn't great nor were the pictures.

[Mike R]

My total is slowly growing. The season is over for lacrosse. I need to figure out something else to shoot. I want to find something that someone would buy. A friend of mine's mother saw my "website" and suggested I go to her daughter's graduation to take pictures. She thinks I could sell those. I'm not so sure. It is outside around 7:00pm. I may be able to deal with those conditions. I don't feel at all comfortable with in door photos. I recently shot my niece's voice recital last week. It was in a church. The light wasn't great nor were the pictures.

If you're confident about producing quality shots, don't pass on the graduation. It'll help get your name out. Your business will grow, people talk and all it will take is someone from the lacrosse team to talk to people from other teams and they will call you. If the kids like your shots and your site, you have nothing to worry about. I never thought I would be as busy as I am with HS sports. In one school, I started with football, well a football player also played basketball, I got that team, Baseball and softball heard about me and called me in Feb. for this year and have already confirmed next year. I'm at games 6 days a week and thought I would have a nice summer break from it but then was called about shooting for a summer baseball league.

Think about offering slide shows for the teams annual banquet. They are easy to put together and profitable.

[dcsmith40D]

If you're confident about producing quality shots, don't pass on the graduation. It'll help get your name out. Your business will grow, people talk and all it will take is someone from the lacrosse team to talk to people from other teams and they will call you. If the kids like your shots and your site, you have nothing to worry about. I never thought I would be as busy as I am with HS sports. In one school, I started with football, well a football player also played basketball, I got that team, Baseball and softball heard about me and called me in Feb. for this year and have already confirmed next year. I'm at games 6 days a week and thought I would have a nice summer break from it but then was called about shooting for a summer baseball league.

Think about offering slide shows for the teams annual banquet. They are easy to put together and profitable.

When you say already confirmed, are you paid something up front or how does that work? And about the slide show, do they buy that from you? Is it a power point show? I haven't done anything in the last couple weeks. I need to make something happen.

[Mike R]

When you say already confirmed, are you paid something up front or how does that work? And about the slide show, do they buy that from you? Is it a power point show? I haven't done anything in the last couple weeks. I need to make something happen.

L O N G PM Sent

[mattograph]

Well.

After reading this thread copiously, and working diligently on getting everything put together, I set off on my first self-assignment -- a collection of shots from my 5 year olds soccer season.

I took about 2000 images over 8 games, sorted everything with an eye toward being inclusive of all the kids. I tested three providers, finally settling on smugmug. Ordered test prints. Received, tweaked my PP, order again. Learned as much as I could about smugmug. Designed a logo. Put together a collection that I thought was awesome.

Once everything was JUST how I wanted it, I sent out the site all the parents. After 24 hours, I received the following email:

"You have a very nice camera."

Needless to say, I won't be quitting my day job. Just thought I would share.

And thanks to everyone on this thread for their great advice. You saved me tons of time, and I had a ball.

[dcsmith40D]

Well.

After reading this thread copiously, and working diligently on getting everything put together, I set off on my first self-assignment -- a collection of shots from my 5 year olds soccer season.

I took about 2000 images over 8 games, sorted everything with an eye toward being inclusive of all the kids. I tested three providers, finally settling on smugmug. Ordered test prints. Received, tweaked my PP, order again. Learned as much as I could about smugmug. Designed a logo. Put together a collection that I thought was awesome.

Once everything was JUST how I wanted it, I sent out the site all the parents. After 24 hours, I received the following email:

"You have a very nice camera."

Needless to say, I won't be quitting my day job. Just thought I would share.

And thanks to everyone on this thread for their great advice. You saved me tons of time, and I had a ball.

Did you sell any yet? What's your smugmug address?

[mattograph]

mattograph.smugmug.com

No, nothing yet.

[Displaced]

I'm by no means an expert, but I will share my story with you. I got a Smugmug pro site, printed up some cheapie business cards, and went out to a couple of my niece's soccer games at the request of my sis. Well, as soon as I walked up with my 70-200 2.8 the parents started asking how they could get copies. Passed out the cards, took some shots, and sold 7 pics...all to my sister (she didn't even tell me she was ordering or I would have just given them to her). Never heard from any of the parents on the sports shots, BUT I did make some sales to them on my landscapes and other stuff (imagine that). Word of mouth is getting out and I have two paying gigs coming up because of it. Also was asked to attend more kids sports by some parents, but whether that results in direct sales on those or something else is fine with me. I've only started this in April and have almost earned enough to pay for the pro site. I don't push anything. I just show up and hopefully one thing leads to another. Whether I sell another photograph or not, I will not shy away from any request because it may open the door for something big down the line. Keep the faith!

[Mike R]

Well.

After reading this thread copiously, and working diligently on getting everything put together, I set off on my first self-assignment -- a collection of shots from my 5 year olds soccer season.

I took about 2000 images over 8 games, sorted everything with an eye toward being inclusive of all the kids. I tested three providers, finally settling on smugmug. Ordered test prints. Received, tweaked my PP, order again. Learned as much as I could about smugmug. Designed a logo. Put together a collection that I thought was awesome.

Once everything was JUST how I wanted it, I sent out the site all the parents. After 24 hours, I received the following email:

"You have a very nice camera."

Needless to say, I won't be quitting my day job. Just thought I would share.

And thanks to everyone on this thread for their great advice. You saved me tons of time, and I had a ball.

Some people wait until the end of the season to place an order "in case a better shot is taken" Others will order through out the seasons and a lot of them will come up to, to say that you take great shots and they are planning on ordering, guess what ? Most of them that say they will be ordering prints, never do. I have had sales each month since October. My most profitable team and the reason may be that it's the largest team. I don't recall if I mentioned it before but you should try to market slide shows for their banquets.

I've been at my day job for so long that I have accepted the fact that sports photography will not replace the income from it.

[mattograph]

Some people wait until the end of the season to place an order "in case a better shot is taken" Others will order through out the seasons and a lot of them will come up to, to say that you take great shots and they are planning on ordering, guess what ? Most of them that say they will be ordering prints, never do. I have had sales each month since October. My most profitable team and the reason may be that it's the largest team. I don't recall if I mentioned it before but you should try to market slide shows for their banquets.

I've been at my day job for so long that I have accepted the fact that sports photography will not replace the income from it.

Everything you have said has been so. The one thing I have NOT received is a request for digital images, which surprises me.

Now, the up side is that I was contacted by the head of the volleyball program at the school. (A side note: Volleyball in Louisville is like football in Pennsylvania. Last year, our school had FIVE volleyball squads. For just the third grade girls. Its a big deal.)

Anyway, the volleyball coordinator asked me to shoot the teams this year, for money. Real money. I agreed to donate my proceeds, less expenses, back to the church (its a church run school), so it looks like its a done deal.

So, thats something. :)

[S.Horton]

When I read this thread and saw your photos, I thought you were trying to change careers. Are you?

[dcsmith40D]

When I read this thread and saw your photos, I thought you were trying to change careers. Are you?

Who are you referring to?

[dcsmith40D]

Sam,

I went to your pictures. I am impressed. Is photography your career? If so, yeah I'd like to be like you one day. If you were asking me, the op, I have no misconceptions that I will be changing careers based on my experience or talent. I would like to make enough to buy the equipment I already bought. I find photography intriguing.

I am curious as to where you were going with that.

David

[mattograph]

WOOHOO!!!!!!

First sale -- 8 prints! Wow! What a feeling!!!!!!!

[inthedeck]

Congrats mattograph.

[S.Horton]

Sam,

I went to your pictures. I am impressed. Is photography your career? If so, yeah I'd like to be like you one day. If you were asking me, the op, I have no misconceptions that I will be changing careers based on my experience or talent. I would like to make enough to buy the equipment I already bought. I find photography intriguing.

I am curious as to where you were going with that.

David

LOL -- I'm an amateur with too much gear and software. ;}

I asked because if you're trying to switch careers, any advice I'd give is useless.

Now since you're not trying to make a living at it, here's the hard truth, in my experience.

1. If you get a specific request for a 'feature player' shoot, yes, you'll sell prints. Pricing, keep it pretty high, because after you start really post-processing photos for print, you'll notice the amount of time invested is very large. In this case, sell no prints smaller than 5x7, or the parent will compare your pricing to Wal-Mart....... phhhhhhht no sale.

2. If you just go shoot the games and post photos, do not ever expect to actually get paid. People view them online, they're satisfied, that's it. Let that be enough if you're a hobbyist, because you posted them for your own enjoyment.

3. If you join forces with your kid's league, and agree to a 'contribution' ratio for a fundraiser, you'll get a gig. You'll have to shoot it, then print a book of real photos, then go sell the physical photos in person at the next game as an 'official' fundraiser. Even here, expect you walk away with enough to, say, buy an Extreme IV CF card, no more.

4. Same idea as 3, join forces, sell a CD in person of all of the season's photos for, say, $50, split profit, you might make a bit more.

So, let's say you DID want to make money....... Go shoot what almost nobody else can -- events in low or difficult light -- e.g. Night Lacrosse, Football, Soccer, indoor shoots especially Ice Hockey, which costs so much money that your photos are nothing to the parent........ why? b/c parents without a camer can't get indoor action shots. Ever.

When can that happen for you? Give it about a year, after everyone realizes that (a) you're getting shots they can't and (b) they recall who you are and what you're doing.

Welcome to the world of PWAC. The much-derided, unsung parent-with-a-camera club.

;):eek:

PS - I looked at your site. Nice start, but have a look in the SPORTS area on POTN in the sticky area for advice on how to set up and post-process the photos. That area is better than any book I ever found on shooting sports. Enjoy!

[AdamC]

WOOHOO!!!!!!

First sale -- 8 prints! Wow! What a feeling!!!!!!!


Grats!

[golfecho]

First of THANKS to everyone on this forum. I have been lurking for well over a year, and although I have only posted perhaps twice before, just the simple ability to read everyone's issues and solutions helps me out beyond belief.

My question is, now that I am thinking of taking the plunge and establishing myself on the web for sale of my work, I have reviewed some of the various web sales sites available, and I like the looks of Exposure Manager, but I realize most have great features and everyone will have their own preferences. Does anyone have any experience with Shutterfly Pro? I have a shutterfly account for my own printing, but I am wondering if there is a consensus of opinion regarding their "pro" account services?

Thanks in advance for everyone's time and dedication to their craft and our learning from the best.

[mattograph]

First of THANKS to everyone on this forum. I have been lurking for well over a year, and although I have only posted perhaps twice before, just the simple ability to read everyone's issues and solutions helps me out beyond belief.

My question is, now that I am thinking of taking the plunge and establishing myself on the web for sale of my work, I have reviewed some of the various web sales sites available, and I like the looks of Exposure Manager, but I realize most have great features and everyone will have their own preferences. Does anyone have any experience with Shutterfly Pro? I have a shutterfly account for my own printing, but I am wondering if there is a consensus of opinion regarding their "pro" account services?

Thanks in advance for everyone's time and dedication to their craft and our learning from the best.

I just went through the same process, and opted to go with Smugmug. The quality of the prints is great, and it was really easy to use.

My experience with the prints from shutterfly was that they were soft and contrasty. That was about a year ago.

Don't know anything about exposure manager, though........

[M_ark]

<snip>
Welcome to the world of PWAC. The much-derided, unsung parent-with-a-camera club.

I'll Join! Now, where's that signup form...

[dcsmith40D]

I know most of you guys are just starting out. Eventually when you get comfortable and want to get in the big bucks for event photography (and spending a few to get started) you HAVE TO SELL ON SITE! That does not necessarily mean printing onsite (which IS expensive) but selling on site.

I use 5minutephoto.com and they have software that processes all of your images onsite and loads them on monitors for viewing in about 5 minutes. Parents can scroll through games during tournaments & competitions, pick their favorites, and save them in a cart (just like online) and submit it for printing.

When i started I only had two computers with one viewing screen, but it was so popular that now I gradually expand my set-up and got my first Dye sub printer. Its not that big, but I make money on it charging 10 bucks for a pic. Parents line up at the viewing stations a couple minutes after a game to see if they want to add their kids photo.

I know that this is big business because I have seen where some people have 10 and even 25 viewing stations. I hope I can get to that point. But believe me when I tell you that you are wasting your time trying to sell photos after an event. Your sales double or more when the photos can be looked at and purchased right then!

So keep up the good work and build your equipment up to rake in the dough!

Good luck!

Critter


That sounds great. However, it seems apparent that you need a good crew to pull that off. Do you have or take the time to crop or otherwise process the photos prior to the parents taking a look at them? From what experience I have, I don't want anybody looking at my shots until I have a chance to review, perhaps delete, crop, apply brightness corrections or otherwise address. I have been taking all of my shots in raw format to allow a second chance at exposure. I'm not trying to suggest that you aren't doing it with success; I'm just curious as to what your process is and how much help does the effort require.

Thanks,

David

[Mr.P]

Check mine, but 4 Canadians....

Nice work, good to see someone from Ottawa on here too!

[Ghostfly]

I do this for equine events.
I post my photos with the longest side 800 pixels.
I use zenfolio premium and have it apply a water mark to every image.
If you don't use watermarks a mildly savvy individual can copy the image file. Some won't try.....many don't know the copyright laws and will try.
Make it clear that you intend to sell the photos and be very personable.

I don't like to put watermarks over my images because they take away from the picture. How would one be able to steal an image from zenfolio if downloading is turned off. Just curious, it's definitely something I was concerned with.

[mattograph]

I don't like to put watermarks over my images because they take away from the picture. How would one be able to steal an image from zenfolio if downloading is turned off. Just curious, it's definitely something I was concerned with.

Two words:

Screen Capture.

[Ghostfly]

Two words:

Screen Capture.

"I see said the blind man"

[mattograph]

"I see said the blind man"

I learned the hard way.

[Jertsal]

subscribed.

[canonloader]

Since this thread started 4 months ago, how many have followed this and made some sales? Or rather, of those who follow this info, where are you at in the process now. :)

I know I have been meaning to hit a nearby ball diamond for the summer games, since last summer, I haven't done it yet. I think I will go Saturday though.

Another question, what lenses does everyone use most? Tripod? Closeups? Artsy stuff with wide angles?

And thanks to everyone who contributed. A great resource.

[AdamC]

Since this thread started 4 months ago, how many have followed this and made some sales? Or rather, of those who follow this info, where are you at in the process now.


I've shot every game of my son's soccer season (9 games so far,) sent a letter of intro home with the kids of our team and emailed several of the teams they've played against. Total sales to date, $0. Plenty of page views though.

[canonloader]

I hear ya. I found out a startling discovery years ago. People like us, online all the time, think wow, the whole world is online, everybody. Well, the truth is, about 1 in ten businesses are really online, and maybe that many private homes. What it is is a big scam by either the cable companies or whoever is offering dialup, but the truth really is, not that many people are online.

I have done SEO for a number of years and have worked for two directories and am working as an editor for one now. There are a lot of websites out there, but percentage wise, not nearly as many as people online think there is. Page view count really doesn't mean all that much, hits even less. To be meningful, you would need 5 to 8 thousand unique visitors a week and a hundred K hits. And only a few of those will lead to sales. The internet is not the wide open flea market people want it to be. Unfortunately. :)

[Mike R]

I've shot every game of my son's soccer season (9 games so far,) sent a letter of intro home with the kids of our team and emailed several of the teams they've played against. Total sales to date, $0. Plenty of page views though.

A lot has to do with the age group of the players. It may be different elsewhere but I find that sales are good if the players are very young and then sales drop off until the HS varsity level. Even the JV level is less than varsity. Sales also vary from school to school. I have better sales from a school that I don't give a kickback to, compared to a school that, although it was not asked for, I give them a percentage because I wanted to help the booster club. Don't give up.

[AdamC]

A lot has to do with the age group of the players. It may be different elsewhere but I find that sales are good if the players are very young and then sales drop off until the HS varsity level. Even the JV level is less than varsity. Sales also vary from school to school. I have better sales from a school that I don't give a kickback to, compared to a school that, although it was not asked for, I give them a percentage because I wanted to help the booster club. Don't give up.

I've no idea if that holds true here as well, but my son's team is U/13, so maybe that's it. I've pretty much given up now, I'm going back to shooting for myself. I think I'll probably keep posting up for sale the photos for the rest of the season though, and I was thinking of handing out free CDs at the end of the year of a slideshow of a selection of the year's best photos. That may spark some sales, but I'll just consider it a gift to the team.

[PhotosGuy]

I don't like to put watermarks over my images because they take away from the picture. How would one be able to steal an image from zenfolio if downloading is turned off. Just curious, it's definitely something I was concerned with. I had this one guy tell me he made a GREAT 8X10 print from one of my images posted here. I asked him to tell anyone who he showed it to that I didn't make it for him.
I usually crop the web images so they aren't in 2X3 format. Last week one guy emailed me & complained that he couldn't get a 4X6" print from it. ;)

[canonloader]

I usually crop the web images so they aren't in 2X3 format. Last week one guy emailed me & complained that he couldn't get a 4X6" print from it.
That's a great idea, but I no longer worry about people grabbing my images from the forum. It would be a compliment to see one of my images on another site.

And then I would send him a cease and desist e-mail. ;)

[dcsmith40D]

Since this thread started 4 months ago, how many have followed this and made some sales? Or rather, of those who follow this info, where are you at in the process now. :)

I know I have been meaning to hit a nearby ball diamond for the summer games, since last summer, I haven't done it yet. I think I will go Saturday though.

Another question, what lenses does everyone use most? Tripod? Closeups? Artsy stuff with wide angles?

And thanks to everyone who contributed. A great resource.

I'm stuck at $198 in my Zenfolio. I just recently (this past weekend) shot my nephews baseball game and posted them. I didn't really shoot the baseball game for potential sales. However, if they buy them that will be ok too. Other than that I had quit shooting for potential sales. Its not that I don't want to pursue it any more, I just don't have a feel for what to shoot this time of year. I 'm not crazy about shooting through the fence at baseball games. I intend to try high school football in the fall. I don't know yet how my 70-200 2.8 will perform for range and low light. And I don't know yet if I can use the 1.4 tele converter due to the same low light sitch. But I'm looking forward to trying. One day I'll break down and get a flash to help out.

[printing]

Nice work

[dcsmith40D]

Nice work
What?

[bobbyz]

I have only shot some soccer games for practice. Only recently I have shot 2 baseball games but from outside the fence. I am in process of printing some of the images and making a printed portfolio to present for next season.

[canonloader]

I stopped at the park near my house yesterday. There were some teams just arriving. I talked to two of the maintenance people working on the signs and asked if there was a photographer working the field. They said there was but not today, she was at another park across town. She uses a laptop and takes the pics and can show them right away and then takes payments right there. This seems like a good approach. Strike while the iron is hot and they see the pics fresh while it happens. ;)

[dcsmith40D]

http://porchshopphotos.com/p983012858/?photo=h210F3F25#554647333

I went to a rodeo of sorts last weekend. I took a lot of pictures. Some are pretty good. The participants showed some interest in buying pictures. However, I don't think hardly any of them have internet access. I decided to order select prints to show at least a couple of the guys to develop word of mouth. I was impressed with the prints.

I called my point of contact to arrange to show him the pictures tonight. He threw me for a loop when he asked me about selling a "cd." I don't feel good about selling a cd/dvd due to them being able to just produce copies for each other. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how to sell DVDs or CDs without giving away potential sales?

Thank,

David

[canonloader]

Does anybody have any suggestions as to how to sell DVDs or CDs without giving away potential sales?
If the CD/DVD is for the computer, you can use Flash to build an exe that will run on their computer. You embed the images inside there and there is no way to get them out, or, you can build a regular flash movie and then use an encrypter to hide them. No way to get them out of that either. They could still take screenshots though.

None of this works on a DVD or CD for the TV though and if the images are on it, you can get them out.

[dcsmith40D]

In my simple way of thinking, I guess I would have to price the DVD high for one copy and then offer copies of subsequent copies a lot more reasonable. Or maybe $20 each with a 10 copy minimum. There is over 700 pictures. How many can a dvd hold?

I think he meant DVD instead of CD.

[canonloader]

A DVD can hold thousands of jpg's really, you can burn 4.7Gb on one DVD.

[cory1848]

http://porchshopphotos.com/p983012858/?photo=h210F3F25#554647333

I went to a rodeo of sorts last weekend. I took a lot of pictures. Some are pretty good. The participants showed some interest in buying pictures. However, I don't think hardly any of them have internet access. I decided to order select prints to show at least a couple of the guys to develop word of mouth. I was impressed with the prints.

I called my point of contact to arrange to show him the pictures tonight. He threw me for a loop when he asked me about selling a "cd." I don't feel good about selling a cd/dvd due to them being able to just produce copies for each other. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how to sell DVDs or CDs without giving away potential sales?

Thank,

David

Copying the CD is exactly what they want to do. I have run into this a couple of times as well. How much do you plan to make for the day? Or how much would you take to call it a profitable day? $$50? $150? $300? Sell it for that...

[dcsmith40D]

I shot three different football games of my nephews team. After the first one was posted to my Zenfolio site, a booster club member told me he wanted to buy a picture of each of the seniors on the team. Long story short, he now wants the pictures on CD to go along with the hardcopies. He proposed two options, 1) he buys the photos on my website and I email him the photos or 2) since I told him I would only net $120, he pay me $150 and I mail him all the photos from the galleries (approximately 600 pictures) on a CD. In that second scenario he prints his own copies from the CD.

There are some things I am unsure of. First off, some of the pictures are quite noisy. I wonder how they will print at 8 x 10. Additionally, how will they project during a slide show. An untrained eye wouldn't recognize them as being noisy on the website. However, when I look at them at 100% on my computer they have a lot of blue, red and green spots in the dark areas.

Second, if I go with his first option to email him the selected pictures so that he can make a slide show, should I re size the pictures? I uploaded them full size to Zenfolio. I feel like I should re size them to keep them from seeing the noisy part of the pictures. That being said, if he has his own prints made from the CD what size files would be required for him to get a good quality 8 x 10?

I'm not sure my questions were stated well. If anyone can help me make sense of it I would appreciate it greatly.

Thanks,

David

I'm speaking of the last couple of football galleries if anybody is interested in seeing the noisy pictures I'm speaking of.

[cory1848]

I shot three different football games of my nephews team. After the first one was posted to my Zenfolio site, a booster club member told me he wanted to buy a picture of each of the seniors on the team. Long story short, he now wants the pictures on CD to go along with the hardcopies. He proposed two options, 1) he buys the photos on my website and I email him the photos or 2) since I told him I would only net $120, he pay me $150 and I mail him all the photos from the galleries (approximately 600 pictures) on a CD. In that second scenario he prints his own copies from the CD.

There are some things I am unsure of. First off, some of the pictures are quite noisy. I wonder how they will print at 8 x 10. Additionally, how will they project during a slide show. An untrained eye wouldn't recognize them as being noisy on the website. However, when I look at them at 100% on my computer they have a lot of blue, red and green spots in the dark areas.

Second, if I go with his first option to email him the selected pictures so that he can make a slide show, should I re size the pictures? I uploaded them full size to Zenfolio. I feel like I should re size them to keep them from seeing the noisy part of the pictures. That being said, if he has his own prints made from the CD what size files would be required for him to get a good quality 8 x 10?

I'm not sure my questions were stated well. If anyone can help me make sense of it I would appreciate it greatly.

Thanks,

David

I'm speaking of the last couple of football galleries if anybody is interested in seeing the noisy pictures I'm speaking of.

What do you sell one print for? Take that number and multiply it by how many seniors there are and charge him that...or meet him in the middle somewhere...

[dcsmith40D]

What do you sell one print for? Take that number and multiply it by how many seniors there are and charge him that...or meet him in the middle somewhere...

I don't think I asked the question especially well, but, the question wasn't about the money.

[videochicke]

I would check into the legality of photographing the kids without releases. Better safe than sorry. When I was teaching, we could not photograph the kids in our class or during activities without a signed release from the parents or guardians.

[dcsmith40D]

I would check into the legality of photographing the kids without releases. Better safe than sorry. When I was teaching, we could not photograph the kids in our class or during activities without a signed release from the parents or guardians.

That didn't really address the issue either.

[WLR]

That didn't really address the issue either.[/quote]


But it's one you have to consider. All you need is one money hungry parent to be a p***k about it, and you're done.

[dcsmith40D]

That didn't really address the issue either.


But it's one you have to consider. All you need is one money hungry parent to be a p***k about it, and you're done.[/quote]

Please go to post #7 of this thread. That was in March. That is when I considered getting a release. The issue was address a few times in response to my question there after.

I appreciate your trying to keep me straight. Right now I'd like some advise on making a CD and associated issues. I'm a little frustrated due to my computer not recognizing the DVD Burner. I got a request for a CD to accompany hard copy pictures. I don't have an answer for the guy. Not only do I not know how I am going to make the CD/DVD, I have questions about what size file would be best to provide assuming I can physically make it.

[Mike R]

I wouldn't sell them a CD. You had wondered how they would look in a slide show. You should sell them a slide how. I charge my teams $265 for a 20 min show of just their team. this comes out to about 200 slides. The show is an exe file and there is not a way for them to make prints from it. If a parent wants a copy of a slide, it's more revenue for you. You can also charge for additional copies of the show, my fee is $30 per copy although I offer to let them burn copies and use it as a fund raiser. About half the teams pay me to burn copies because they like the way I package it.

Another thing to consider is whether you would edit the shots. The shots I post on line have not been editited and I only crop and edit when a shot is purchased.

If the school would like a FEW images for their yearbook, I would donate them.

[WLR]

I guess I missed #7....Anyway, I use Record Now for burning cd's & dvd's. You can get abut 770mb of images on a cd and 4.7gb on a dvd. Don't go cheap on the quality of the media either because alot of the "low end " manufactures dont even make their product themselves. I personally use Sony cd' & dvd's and Mam-A gold dvd's for "the copy that gets kept in the safety deposit box".
Sounds like you have a blown driver for the cd/dvd.

[dcsmith40D]

I guess I missed #7....Anyway, I use Record Now for burning cd's & dvd's. You can get abut 770mb of images on a cd and 4.7gb on a dvd. Don't go cheap on the quality of the media either because alot of the "low end " manufactures dont even make their product themselves. I personally use Sony cd' & dvd's and Mam-A gold dvd's for "the copy that gets kept in the safety deposit box".
Sounds like you have a blown driver for the cd/dvd.

Sorry about my tone. I was getting very frustrated. I have a product for sale for a set price and the customer is telling me what he'd rather have. I wasn't so frustrated with him rather having a different product, but, that I couldn't even come up with a plan to provide it. I took my computer to a geek. About 5 minutes and $35 dollars later I was on my way. I'm in the process of trying to burn a dvd now. This one is for a different customer.

I've yet to come to terms with the other would be customer. That's just because I haven't put forth the effort to argue prices. His thoughts are, if he buys hard copies he should get the digital copy. I don't see it that way.

[dcsmith40D]

I wouldn't sell them a CD. You had wondered how they would look in a slide show. You should sell them a slide how. I charge my teams $265 for a 20 min show of just their team. this comes out to about 200 slides. The show is an exe file and there is not a way for them to make prints from it. If a parent wants a copy of a slide, it's more revenue for you. You can also charge for additional copies of the show, my fee is $30 per copy although I offer to let them burn copies and use it as a fund raiser. About half the teams pay me to burn copies because they like the way I package it.

Another thing to consider is whether you would edit the shots. The shots I post on line have not been editited and I only crop and edit when a shot is purchased.

If the school would like a FEW images for their yearbook, I would donate them.

Thanks for your advice. I don't know that I will initially shoot for that much for the slide show. I wish I had had a product (dvd) and a price established before I got involved with the booster club member. I feel that he will think I am trying to take advantage of him if I charge as much as you suggested. I'm not suggesting the product isn't worth it. I just didn't have a deal up front.

[Mike R]

Thanks for your advice. I don't know that I will initially shoot for that much for the slide show. I wish I had had a product (dvd) and a price established before I got involved with the booster club member. I feel that he will think I am trying to take advantage of him if I charge as much as you suggested. I'm not suggesting the product isn't worth it. I just didn't have a deal up front.

When deciding on what to charge for a slide show you need to consider your time to compile it and your time at the banquet. You also have to consider the cost of a projector and screen. I have had all teams I shoot for pay for a slide show. They think that the price is reasonable and I have kept my prices the same for 2 years. Different parts of the country, even parts of the same state, can have a big influence on what people consider reasonable.

[dcsmith40D]

When deciding on what to charge for a slide show you need to consider your time to compile it and your time at the banquet. You also have to consider the cost of a projector and screen. I have had all teams I shoot for pay for a slide show. They think that the price is reasonable and I have kept my prices the same for 2 years. Different parts of the country, even parts of the same state, can have a big influence on what people consider reasonable.

That makes a big difference. He is not expecting me to show up or provide a projector. All the customer wants is the digital files I think. I was thinking of taking your advise and just offer the slide show on DVD.

[Mike R]

That makes a big difference. He is not expecting me to show up or provide a projector. All the customer wants is the digital files I think. I was thinking of taking your advise and just offer the slide show on DVD.

Once they see a good slide show, They'll keep coming back. If you use ProShow Gold, or ProShow Producer you can make the show an auto exe. file
and put it onto a CD. I switched to ProShow Producer because it offers a lot more, now I can really justify raising my prices next Sept.
Be careful if he wants files to print himself and make it worth your while. Once you do it, he'll expect it every year and so will others.

[dcsmith40D]

Once they see a good slide show, They'll keep coming back. If you use ProShow Gold, or ProShow Producer you can make the show an auto exe. file
and put it onto a CD. I switched to ProShow Producer because it offers a lot more, now I can really justify raising my prices next Sept.
Be careful if he wants files to print himself and make it worth your while. Once you do it, he'll expect it every year and so will others.

I went to ProShow Producer and downloaded the trial version. I tried to play with it but couldn't 't get any pictures moved into the show. Do you know of any tutorials? I'd like to put together something in that program before the 15 days are up.

[WLR]

No problem. We all do a ready-shoot-aim sooner or later....lol.
Been in the same boat. You quote a price for a product and then they want you to reduce the price. The problem with that is if you do reduce the price they now feel you were trying to gouge them (in their opinion) on the price. Always offer them something more......perhaps something you havent put on the table yet. Last inexpensive wedding I shot I gave them a good price for their situation and then they tried to negotiate a lower price. I "added" a gold dvd that I normally "sell" as an addon. Told them this is the copy that goes in the safety deposit box for your grandchildren. Bride almost cried....AND I kept my price, AND for nothing more than the actual cost of the dvd plus the time to burn it while I was walking the dog....
Oh, and the guy that wants the cd also?....Give him a low res version with pictures that wont enlarge over say, 2x3....because you [I]know[I] what they're up to. Made that mistake once. Never heard from them again.

[Sports_Dude]

Give him a low res version with pictures that wont enlarge over say, 2x3....because you [i]know[i] what they're up to. Made that mistake once. Never heard from them again.

What resoultion would you recommend for a 2x3 or maybe maximum 4x6 print? TIA.

[Bodmin636]

Here in the UK at some events I go to you can buy a cd with all the original resolution pictures on of one player/participent for £30. This can have anywhere between 15 and 50 photos on.

[penodr]

I've yet to come to terms with the other would be customer. That's just because I haven't put forth the effort to argue prices. His thoughts are, if he buys hard copies he should get the digital copy. I don't see it that way.

I guess the real question is do you think he will be a repeat customer? My view is that for each picture of a kid you can get one sale, so if they want the print and a digital file just increase the price a bit. These are pictures that you can only really sell to the team and a comprimise that insures future sales might be a good idea.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave

[dcsmith40D]

I decided this weekend to send a slide show of many of pictures from the three games I shot. I wrote him and told him that I would send him the slide show for him decide if he would like to show it at the banquet. I made it clear that I would only send it to him if he promised to only entertain the team and that he was not to give copies to anyone. I also explained that the price he had paid for the prints was for one copy each of the images he had selected. However, I offered to send him the digital copies of the pictures he had purchased with the same understanding, that he not give my work away.

He agreed that he would not give any copies away and said he would tell anyone who inquired where they could purchase copies. That's all I want is a chance to get my goods in front of my target audience.

Mike R had recommended Proshow Producer for slide show productions. I bought it. It can do a lot more than I can figure out in the short amount of time I have. I put together a pretty decent show. I think they will be coming back for more.

David