shooting outside sports in manual...?

[hdd]

since my kids are playing Tee ball now I want to try the manual modes. Ive read post after post on here and im trying to get a basic starting point. I know I need a shutter speed of 1/300 or higher, probably 1/500 to make sure the action freezes when they swing the bat. But where should I put the aperture? Wide open at 1.8(50mm 1.8 lens)? Or does that just depend on how sharp I want the background. Also, when in manual, whats best to meter off? Would I want to meter off my palm since i will focus on the faces of the players, or meter off the BG? So the pro's on here, whats the average scenario on a sunny day? Also, would I keep the ISO low since its sunny, say maybe 400? I know indoors you want roughly 1600 ISO to help with light

thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions.. i love to learn and this is a learning experience

[JeffreyG]

The good news is that on a bright sunny day you can make decisions about aperture and ISO that are not based on scratching like hell just to get adequate shutter speed.

I would personally start by picking an aperture that is fast enough to blow out the background (make it OOF) but slow enough that I have a good chance of hitting focus. A lens like the 50/1.8 is not super great wide open and not super accurate either so I might go for f/4 as an opener.

Next I'm going to pick a shutter speed. Try 1/1000 to start as this is sure to be fast enough for kids.

Finally, let's meter. Unfortunately your XTi lacks a spot meter so some tricks are not available. Here is one you do have. Point your camera at someone wearing white who is out in the same light as the kids. Take their picture and look at the histogram. Now adjust the ISO and the shutter speed if need be until that white garment is looking nice and bright (rightmost 5th of the histogram) but not blown out (blinking). When you hit that point you are all set.

Shoot the game and watch the histogram periodically to be sure the setting is correct and not blowing out players.

[eigga]

Why use M for a bright sunny day. I would suggest AV mode. Set the apeture to match the DOF you want (usually wide open) and the camera will pick the correct shutter for you. There are few situations in good light you would "need" to use complete M mode.

Typically the lowest ISO that allows you to get the shutter speed you need. So start at 100 and go up only if your shutter drops below the 1/500 you want

[JeffreyG]

Why use M for a bright sunny day. I would suggest AV mode. Set the apeture to match the DOF you want (usually wide open) and the camera will pick the correct shutter for you. There are few situations in good light you would "need" to use complete M mode.

The problem with AV mode is that the camera cares about the background and you don't. So if the kid is stadning in front of a lighter background the camera will increase the shutter speed and underexpose the kid. Opposite if the kid stands in front of a shady tree.

Most sports shooters find that since the entire game is usually played in constant light (or at least slowly changing at dusk) it is worth spending 30 seconds to get the exposure set in M mode and know that the atheletes will be exposed correctly.

[eigga]

I guess it depends on your skill, camera, preference and situation.

I just use center weight or spot metering (I know OP doesn't have this)

I find AV is more appropriate in covering my sports but M is not "wrong" I was assuming the OP was fairly new based on the wording and was suggesting a good way to start.

[Wilt]

Why use M for a bright sunny day. I would suggest AV mode. Set the apeture to match the DOF you want (usually wide open) and the camera will pick the correct shutter for you. There are few situations in good light you would "need" to use complete M mode.

Typically the lowest ISO that allows you to get the shutter speed you need. So start at 100 and go up only if your shutter drops below the 1/500 you want

Arguably, if you don't use M to shoot sports, you should used Tv so that you have preset a certain level of action stopping, and let the aperture be the variable as your desire ffor more or less DOF is secondary to action stopping. Av might make more sense for landscape shooting, where DOF is primary and the shutter speed's action stopping is secondary.

[eigga]

So many Choices...

try this
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136949

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135417

[hdd]

from what Ive tested, about 30% more of my pictures come out better in TV mode but I think thats mainly because I control shutter so when I set that somewhat high, it must help with any shake I have. Some AV photos come out good, but it seems I'm doing better with controlling the shutter more than letting the camera choose it.

thats why I was wondering about the manual mode. Manual seems tricky because I get a few good shots, but then the shots get way overexposed and look like the sun LOL. I know its something that you have to learn and it wont come overnight:)

so to get someone exposed right on a sunny day, just meter a white shirt and go from there?

[lungdoc]

Probably easiest to use the palm of your hand method (need an exposure crutch (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89123)), some use grass in this setting. Idea is to meter off something known in the same light as subject - say your hand in bright sun - make the adjustment to make it equal gray card (in my case I open up three clicks) and set it there. This won't work in real changing lighting like alternating significant clouds where Av is probably easier. Classic example for this is shooting racecars where the light doesn't really change but meter fooled by cars of differing colors. Other sports can be the same.

[Mama Tried]

I use TV also to adjust motion blur

[cosworth]

Why use M for a bright sunny day.

Because as long as a cloud doesn't change anything your light rarely changes.

Unless you point the camera at the sun.

M is best suited for sunny days. This is sorta backwards actually. Shoot in M.

[Wilt]

from what Ive tested, about 30% more of my pictures come out better in TV mode but I think thats mainly because I control shutter so when I set that somewhat high, it must help with any shake I have. Some AV photos come out good, but it seems I'm doing better with controlling the shutter more than letting the camera choose it.

thats why I was wondering about the manual mode. Manual seems tricky because I get a few good shots, but then the shots get way overexposed and look like the sun LOL. I know its something that you have to learn and it wont come overnight:)

so to get someone exposed right on a sunny day, just meter a white shirt and go from there?

If you meter a white shirt, your photo will be UNDERexposed, because the meter simply takes what it sees and triest to render it with the brightness level of 18% gray.

[JeffreyG]

Should just add, the times where AV orTV really might be better is if the field is half shaded or the day has really patchy clouds. Basically anything where the light falling on the players really will be changing constantly. If you shoot that in M mode you need to develop two settings (one for player in sun, one for player in shade) and then go back and forth.

Av/TV would handle such a situation fairly well.....subject to it's other usual issues. Like imagine if the player runs into the shade but is standing in front of a sunlight background. Av/Tv will always underexpose that player.

[eigga]

I use M for just about every sport except baseball/softball. On a bright sunny day I do not have the skill to change between the meter for the batter and the field, especially on sharply hit balls. Tee ball might not be so hard :)

I would suggest to start with AV or TV and work to M as a beginner. Pros need the ability to use all 3 and the knowldge to know when to use them.

[primoz]

Why use M for a bright sunny day.
Very short reply.... because cameras are too stupid to handle that.
A bit longer reply... because cameras are too stupid to handle that :) Ok seriously... they are. With sport, it's normally about athletes. And on athletes, face is one of most important thing. Cameras (even if you use spot), take readings for surroundings too. While it might work for landscape, where you want everything to be normally lit, with sport it doesn't. With sport it doesn't really matter if background is a bit over/under exposed. Athlete is important, and with AV or TV, you let camera to decide what is best way to lit WHOLE scene. But since you are not after whole scene, you normally end up with under exposed athlete. Not to mention less then perfect conditions like snow, water etc.

[primoz]

If you can, go with much shorter times then 1/300 or 1/500. On sunny day, you shouldn't have problems getting to 1/2000 or even faster with pretty low iso. And to be on safe side, go with fast times, even if iso is set a bit higher, rather then hoping everything will work fine with iso50 and 1/300.
And if you will be shooting with 50mm lens, which I still think is bad choice, don't use f1.8. DOF is so shallow at f1.8, that not many things will be in focus. So close lens down a bit (at least f3.2 or f3.5). But if you ask me, I would rather go with 17-70mm. 70mm is not long, but still better then 50mm. I don't know how close you can come, but for 50mm, you should be really really close. Too close to be allowed to be.

[bobbyz]

Arguably, if you don't use M to shoot sports, you should used Tv so that you have preset a certain level of action stopping, and let the aperture be the variable as your desire ffor more or less DOF is secondary to action stopping. Av might make more sense for landscape shooting, where DOF is primary and the shutter speed's action stopping is secondary.

I disagree. For sports controlling the aperture is real important. So I would recommend Av mode at wide open apertures, if one doesn not want to use manual mode (which I prefer, indoors or outdoors)

With wide open in Av mode, you will always have fastest shutter speed for given ISO.

With fixed ss in Tv mode, you letting the aperture float, which won't always give you the nicer blurred backgrounds that you looking for.

There is reason people buy and use f2.8 lens at f2.8 for sports, even for outdoors in very bright light.

[bobbyz]

I think OP needs a longer lens. 50mm f1.8 is too short and slow to AF, I wouldn't use it.

[Wilt]

I disagree. For sports controlling the aperture is real important. So I would recommend Av mode at wide open apertures, if one doesn not want to use manual mode (which I prefer, indoors or outdoors)

With wide open in Av mode, you will always have fastest shutter speed for given ISO.

With fixed ss in Tv mode, you letting the aperture float, which won't always give you the nicer blurred backgrounds that you looking for.

There is reason people buy and use f2.8 lens at f2.8 for sports, even for outdoors in very bright light.

I did state it was arguable! :)
To present the other side of the coin (Tv)...if you are attempting to 'freeze' action at a controlled level...just a bit of motion blur.
For example, a rowing crew has a very predictable tempo and rate of motion. And it absolutely does not matter if the camera is using F/2.8 or f/5.6 simply because the other crew boat is so far away in its lane, from the boat of interest in its lane, that the other boat is always out of focus, so shutter speed would indeed be the variable that you want tightest control over, and not at all care about DOF!

[Paul S]

I found shooting LAX in AV mode last week the Exposure varied. I was not happy. The players had all different color sweats on. The next day I spot metered in AV to one player . Av gave me a shutter setting. Then switched over to M mode. Made a few adjustments And all the photos looked great !

[yogestee]

I guess it depends on your skill, camera, preference and situation.

I just use center weight or spot metering (I know OP doesn't have this)

I find AV is more appropriate in covering my sports but M is not "wrong" I was assuming the OP was fairly new based on the wording and was suggesting a good way to start.

What are you shooting?? The 100 meter dawdle?? Shooting sport the place to start is in Tv with a shutterspeed of 500th or more to freeze the action..If the lighting is constant shoot in manual mode taking your meter reading off the grass or similar..Do a few lighting checks at different places of the park..

[eigga]

What are you shooting?? The 100 meter dawdle??

Outside in decent light I know the shutter speed is not an issue. 1/500 is rarley an issue so I prefer to adjust the aperture and manage my DOF.

When light is an issue I use M, honestly have never use TV or needed it. Would you need Tv if you are always getting shutters of 1/1000 (most sunny days) or more at f/3.2? Just seems silly to me unless you want a specific blur effect.

[hdd]

ok, so bascially some like TV, some like AV, others like Manual:) bascially from what im reading it doesnt matter if you like AV or TV.. If you cant get high shuuter speeds through AV, then switch to TV to have shutter control.

also, i see most say to focus on the grass in manual or a few other spots and sorta get a average of the light and go from there? Either way, in TV or AV, it seems both of those features should end up getting the same basic results given good light:)

my biggest issue is that my photos just dont seem to have great POP to them. I hate editing photos to get them right and would perferr great shots right off the camera. I see lots of photos here and the people look crisp and actaully seem to pop out. Maybe its just a better lens. Im happy with my photos and they are 3 times better than P&S's:) Just trying to always better the shots

[bobbyz]

If you cant get high shuuter speeds through AV, then switch to TV to have shutter control.


I don't understand what you mean by this?

If you can' get required shutter speed with Av (slow lens for example), how can you switching the mode to Tv or anything else going to help?

regarding pop, I would post some of the shots with exif info so people can provide their recommendations.

[Wilt]

ok, so bascially some like TV, some like AV, others like Manual:) bascially from what im reading it doesnt matter if you like AV or TV.. If you cant get high shuuter speeds through AV, then switch to TV to have shutter control.

Some, like me, choose any one of the three modes, based simply on what is of the greatest importance for a given shoot! In some cases, I want control of DOF so I use Av. In other cases, I want control of motion capture, so I use Tv. In other cases, I want absolutely consistent shot-to-shot exposure to be in all shots, so I shoot in M.


also, i see most say to focus on the grass in manual or a few other spots and sorta get a average of the light and go from there? Either way, in TV or AV, it seems both of those features should end up getting the same basic results given good light:)

There is no single best mode, there is only the parameter that you are willing to be the variable...aperture variable (Tv), motion variable (Av), no variable (M), push-here-dummy (P or GreenBox)



my biggest issue is that my photos just dont seem to have great POP to them. I hate editing photos to get them right and would perferr great shots right off the camera. I see lots of photos here and the people look crisp and actaully seem to pop out. Maybe its just a better lens. Im happy with my photos and they are 3 times better than P&S's:) Just trying to always better the shots

Have you considered that others' photos might pop simply because they DO spend a bit of time tweaking in Post Processing?! And with a good program, it need not be super time consuming and painful. Yesterday I took photos during family Easter gathering, then spent maybe 15 minutes tweaking the dozens of photos shot during the day before burning them to CD to give.

[eigga]

Some, like me, choose any one of the three modes, based simply on what is of the greatest importance for a given shoot! In some cases, I want control of DOF so I use Av. In other cases, I want control of motion capture, so I use Tv. In other cases, I want absolutely consistent shot-to-shot exposure to be in all shots, so I shoot in M.

Perfect.... and I agree with the processing. Taking the image is step #1

[hdd]

Wilt, thnaks for the info! You bascially summed it up in the first paragraph:) Mainly if im shooting the kids playing tee ball, the BG isnt a huge concern. I just want to make sure I capture the bat during the swing so TV would be what I need to freeze that. If there was something I didnt want to show to well in the BG, then I know AV would be used for that. My biggest question was is 1.8 would give you a sharper photo than say f4. But I see that it really doesnt matter since what you focus will be sharp and that the aperture will only effect how sharp the BG is. Im still learning so thats why I wnated to ask some advice

as for manual, its gonna take some learning for me. Ive only had my XTI for 5 days:) Also, thanks for the info on PP work. I figured that was the case. Im just never happy with anything I do:) LOL

[Wilt]

as for manual, its gonna take some learning for me. Ive only had my XTI for 5 days:) Also, thanks for the info on PP work. I figured that was the case. Im just never happy with anything I do:) LOL

Manual is NOT complex at all. If you put your camera in Tv mode and select 1/250, the camera might come back and set 'f/11'. If you put your camera in Av mode, the camera might come back and set '1/250'. But if a white jersey ran past (vs. a navy blue jersey) the Tv 1/250 might set 'f/16', or the Av camera might set '1/500' as the brighter jersey ran past, but you know that you want to expose for the skin tones rather than changing exposure for jersey brightness!

M merely takes the two settings the meter displayed, and YOU set them into the camera (by lining up the indicator to the center of the scale) and they stay set at what you chose. You set 1/250 and you set f/11, and you have consistent exposure in spite of the color jersey running past! You merely need to monitor that the light intensity striking the scene is not changing, such as due to the sun ducking behind a cloud on a partially cloudy day.

[hdd]

I understand Wilt:) If you wanted, couldnt you take a shot in AV mode or TV. See how that exposed and if its what you want, just switch to manual and put those settings in(provided like you said, the light stays the same). I have had a chance to get outside today since its cloudy and cold, but I snapped a pic of my kids inside and natural light. Feel free to help CC these.. These arent action or outdoors but these were shot in AV mode.
1/30 - f1.8 - ISO 1600
http://www.delanofarms.net/testp.jpg

1/80 - f4 - ISO1600
http://www.delanofarms.net/testp2.jpg

1/125 - f2.8 ISO 1600
http://www.delanofarms.net/testp3.jpg

also, I had to overexpose 2/3(or 2 clicks) Not sure if I overexposed to much or not but I just liked the look compared to the 0 setting since the BG wasnt to DARK!

im not sure if I'm on the right track. No tripod so some of these turned out fuzzy do to the low shutter and poor light. Any help would be great for natural light

[hdd]

i also forgot to ask, but is it better to stay in one shot or switch to Al Servo for this? I would assume al servo would be better since if they move quickly, the camera will refocus

[yogestee]

Outside in decent light I know the shutter speed is not an issue. 1/500 is rarley an issue so I prefer to adjust the aperture and manage my DOF.

When light is an issue I use M, honestly have never use TV or needed it. Would you need Tv if you are always getting shutters of 1/1000 (most sunny days) or more at f/3.2? Just seems silly to me unless you want a specific blur effect.

Ever shot motor racing?? Try shooting Superbikes or MotoGP with a shutter speed of 500th sec..I'll tell you these bikes are so quick at 500th they will be a blur unless you focus on a slow corner..Anywhere else you will need 1000th sec plus..

[primoz]

For any sport (or actually anything moving) ai servo is only way to go.

[hdd]

thanks for the info. Im just trying to take as much guessing out of it my first time shooting. I know its gonna take a few games to get everything right though.

Luckly we can get out on the field with the kids still so I will be close up for photos

[eigga]

Ever shot motor racing?? Try shooting Superbikes or MotoGP

Not yet but I have a job later this summer for motorcycle drag racing. I will keep that in mind.

But I was mainly reffering to the OP's question of tee-ball which I have a lot of experience with. Its is awesome to hear what everyone does and their suggestions.