Canon D60 flash problems

[David Miller]

I just got off the land line with Schiller's Imaging Group, one of the largest camera supply houses in St. Louis, Missouri. I talked several minutes with their lead outside sales person about the the problems I have been having with my Canon D60 and 550EX flash. What I found out is exactly what I have discovered trying to photograph weddings with one of the "new" digital cameras.
My first go-around with digital cameras was with a Olympus C2500L with Olympus external flash. I soon give this camera up because I got so many underexposed files. Of course the file size was extremely small but the main problem was all the underexposed files.
My second digital camera was a FujiS1 with Nikon SB-28 flash. According to the book, this camera was suppose to be able to use the TTL feature of the SB-28 but it also underexposed a large percentage of files. After many trials, we found out that exceptable files could be made with the flash set on "Automatic". We have done about 60 weddings with this camera and the results we good.
We then purchased three Canon D60's with 550EX flashes, thinking that our problem with underexposed candids would be over. After talking with Schiller's, we have found out that most, if not all, professional photographers were experiencing problems with this camera and flash. The real rub with the 550EX is that there is no "automatic" function, only ETTL and manual. I am talking about photographers that are photographing 30+ weddings a year.
I just found out that a friend of mine in St. Louis that is one of the leading photographers in the mid-states just switched over to the FujiS2. He is now using Vivitar 285's on the S2 because the TTL feature doesn't work well enough to be trusted professionally.
After spending several thousand dollars on digital, I must come to the conclusion that camera manufactures are experiencing problems with TTL on digital cameras, no matter what the make. Remember, this is not just my opinion, I have several friends that are professional, full time photographers that are have this problem with TTL. Almost all of them have adopted some kind of independent flash that can be used in "auto". Some are even using their flash on manual.
Respectfully yours,
David Miller

[michaelthomasmitchell]

David,

I honestly don't know if my own experience is relavent to your own. And I don't wish to suggest that others are not knowledgable about Canon's flash system. However, please allow me to relate my experiences with it.

I, too, began my foray into digital photography with the Oly 2500. It was meant to be a "fun" camera from the start, purchased with thoughts of capturing lots of images of my wonderful new daughter. And indeed I did! I bypassed the costly Oly flash and went with a standard thyristor unit. Exposures were about as consistent as I expected. Naturally, the differences between negative film and digital images insofar as exposure lattitude and processing became quite clear; I also realized film had probably been very forgiving towards me for years without me knowing!

The Oly was a nice camera, and I hated parting with it, but when the Nikon D1 arrived, I saw the opportunity to use digital for both personal and professional use. I purchased the Nikon SB-28DX for it, and I don't think any of the thousands of shots I took with it were ever overexposed. Plenty were underexposed!

Later, by now committed to digital for my work, I picked up a couple of Canon D30 bodies. For work, I used the Sunpak 550 grip-style flash units. They're thristor units that offer plenty of power at an affordable price. Exposures were good overall, but again, I was made aware of how film had forgiven even this technology in the past.

Time and again I tried using the internal flash on the D30 just for snapshots, and time and again the results were wildly inconsistent. In various forums where the debate about ETTL vs thyristor was made, I shared that it didn't make much sense to put alot of money into ETTL if the results were not BETTER than thyristor technology. (And indeed, in my experience, it was not.) But one day while shooting a wedding, about six months after first using the D30, I had a bad experience setting up my mono lights for some location portraits, and I thought about how nice the wireless ETTL system might be. Still dissatisfied with even basic ETTL flash with the built-in unit (and fully mindful of its power limitation), I set about doing research. Much to my surprise, I found out that ETTL was a completely different beast requiring a completely different technique than I had been using. Could the fault have been me and not the system? I purchased a 420 and began experimenting.

Over the course of several days and hundreds of shots, I set out to learn all I could about ETTL. My first goal was to see if, when following directions exactly as given by Canon, the system would supply proper exposures. Then, I wanted to break the rules and see if I was rewarded with poor exposures. I didn't just want to perform casual tests. Rather, I made certain that each experiment could be duplicated. It wasn't a single shot that concerned me but rather MANY shots.

The system was not the simplist to learn. There were many variables and conditions. I had many good exposures and a discouraging number of unintentionally poor exposures. What WAS encouraging, however, was being able to analyze the image and EXIF data later and learning WHY the image either was exposed the way it was.

Since I was able to DUPLICATE my results at will, I concluded that the system performed consistently and it was I who did not. However, I also concluded that the system is far more sensitive to variables than a thyristor system. It's capable of far greater accuracy, but at the expense of ease of use and simplicity. In addition, I believe it to be a major drawback not to be able to store a single FEL setting in memory any longer than the shutter button is pressed.

I don't doubt that many photographers have had trouble using the system. And in fact, I don't think it was the best system for Canon to employ on their digital SLRs. Some years ago, SLRs that included a pop-up flash still relied on thyristor technology with the use of a small sensor located on the camera, usually on the flash head itself. Since the D30/60 was, Canon claimed, not intentionally aimed at the professional market, and considering the design difficulties of employing TTL metering in digital camera bodies, such a system -- cheap, simple, and friendly -- may have been wiser choice. And it certainly does NOT make sense for the otherwise excellent 550 EX not have a thyristor mode included. Certainly, the added cost would have been practically negligible.

But there are plenty of photographers who ARE successfully using ETTL, and many of them seem to share that they had to learn and practice using this completely different before employing it successfully. As for me, I see it as just another tool which I have had to learn, and one which is used for times when it is best suited, and not used when other methods are preferred. My success rate has jumped from probably 50% to about 95% and I can honestly say that it performs for me at least as well as thyristor technology.

I no longer believe there is anything inherently faulty with the system itself. Today, I enjoy a good relationship with ETTL and achieve some very pleasing results using 2, 3 and more units for some very sophisticated wireless flash photography. But clearly, the system is not the friendliest around. You are correct, however, that digital cameras require a completely different system than traditional film bodies. And although I find myself using the ETTL flash system both predominantly and successfully in my work (I'm one of those 30+ weddings a year photographers, as well), it's not a system I leap to recommend.

Best of luck

M

[David Miller]

Michael,
Thanks for the reply. It seems that our experiences are quite similiar - we are both wedding photographers and we both need to trust our equipment.
FEL works much better than trying to keep one of the three focusing points on the bride or groom, whichever we are photographing. The FEL seems to hold a setting for about 16 seconds, once that it is activated. The big problem I have with FEL and our photojournalism approach is that once I activate the FEL my subject thinks that I have taken the "real" picture and really I haven't.
I think that I will continue to use the most accurate "auto" flash I can find and forget the TTL, ATTL, or ETTL units. Of course, you know how we photographers are - suckers for the first new item to hit the market. It would be nice to know that the salespeople we trust should really know their equipment before they sell it, thus saving us valuable time finding out the problems on the job.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[Tony B]

David,

Your observations and experiences using the 550EX parallel those of many other photographers using the D30/D60 with E-TTL flash units. As Michael points out, however, there are techniques to get accurate and consistent results. I have two 550EX's and an ST-E2 that I find very useful in controlled shooting situations.

Unfortunately, Canon's E-TTL (as implemented on the D30/D60) is not a system than lends itself to fast, consistent flash shooting like most of us were use to using thyristor units. I'm an event photographer and using the FEL presents its own set of problems as you are aware.

I often find myself using bracket mounted 283's, etc. on my D60's when I know that I'm going to be shooting fast and can't be worrying about whether my center sensor is over a dark or light area, etc. I believe there are MANY other working photographers who have gone back to thyristor flash units with their digital cameras.

Have you tried using a thyristor unit with your new digital bodies? You may find that the "old technology" is a lot less troublesome in your work.

Good luck,

Tony

[David Miller]

Tony,
Thanks for the reply, it's always nice to hear from other photographers that are in the business. I think that camera manufacturers should get feed-back from people that use their equipment, it might help eliminate some of the problems were are faced with.
I decided to purchase a new FujiS2 to see if I could elimiate the problem of eratic candid flash pictures. I put my Nikon SB-28 flash on the S2 and have taken about 100 files with this combination. So far the TTl seems to work very well but we intend to give this combination the acid test on Saturday at a wedding. It will be used as a back-up camera, however based on the preliminary results I have obtained I am confident that it will work fine. I have always used Canon equipment but I think they need to re-engineer their flash systems to be more convenient to use in candid situations.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[Tony B]

David,

Let us know how the S2 works with the TTL flash under "real wedding" conditions :-) . It would be interesting indeed if the Nikon and Fuji units were significantly better in the flash department. If that were the case with the Nikon D100 using TTL flash, then it would certainly be an edge in it's favor (vs the D60) for many pros whose work is flash intensive....

Good luck,

Tony

[David Miller]

Tony,
Yesterday I shot about 45 seniors with the FujiS2. I also shot them with my Bronica SQAi with 180mm lens. I told the seniors that I was testing out a new digital camera. It was my intention to process the film and use the digital files as back-up. I am now going to use the digital files and forget the film. As soon as Tallyn's Photographic in Peoria, Illinois is open this moring I am going to order my second FujiS2 camera. We have shot Seniors in the studio since June and I will tell you that my FujiS2 files are much better in both sharpness and color than the Canon D60. I used the Tamron 28/105 f2.8 lens with a Tallyn's #2 soft-focus filter. The files are beautiful! I will be glad to E-mail you some files. I know that this is suppose to be a Canon Forum but I am glad that I have sold my D60 and replaced it with the FujiS2. Quite frankly, I was just about ready to go back to film. With the D60, I was constantly adding red to the files and increasing contrast in photoshop. I like the S2 files much better. Tomorrow we are going to "test" the S2 at a wedding and on Sunday I will be doing a commercial digital candid shoot for Cargil Corporation, a major US company. Should know much more about the S2 by Monday. I have shot about 100 digital files with the S2 and SB-28 flash and I am confident that it will work fine. I am getting consistant candid flash pictures. I did add +.5 to the flash setting. I think the Nikon 3D matrix and Nikon flash works better that Canon and Canon flashes. I own at least 3 Canon bodies and 8 Canon lenses so I don't say this lightly.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[Tony B]

David,

All I can say is WOW, this is VERY interesting information regarding the Fuji S2. Now you've got me re-thinking my Canon investment (I have two D60's and a fair amount of good glass). I'm curious - why the S2 instead of the Nikon D100? Do you think there is much difference between the two.

Let us know what you think after the Cargil shoot....

David, if you get a chance, I'd like to take you up on your offer to email me a couple of files to illustrate the results you are getting.

I changed my reply title - this is way too interesting ...

cheers,

Tony

[David Miller]

Tony,
Just got back from one of my schools and checked my messages and of course the Canon digital forum. I don't want you to think that all I do is compare one camera to another-what I am interested in is getting the job done. We photographers don't make money buying equipment all the time. Once I get a piece of equipment that I like I stay with it. I chose the FujiS2 over the Nikon D100 because I have had some very good results with the FujiS1. Also Tallyn's Photographic in Peoria, Illinois has been very good to me and they sell the Fuji. Any time I have ever needed photographic help they have been really great to me. Once I took my Fuji Pictrography 3500 printer there and they fixed it on the spot. I had one heck of a paper jam which was my own fault. Probably the Nikon will be ok too! I only bought the Canon D60 because it was available in June and I didn't think the Nikon or FujiS2 would be available until November or December of this year. I'm sure that the Canon D60 helped get the Nikon D100 and Fuji S2 to market. I read on the forum that Canon has a new full 35mm frame digital camera in the wings. Contax has a full frame digital camera also. I am sure Fuji and Nikon will also have full frame digital cameras soon also. Once the 35mm camera manufacturers have full frame digital cameras the digital backs for medium format cameras will be obsolite. Medium format digital backs use a sensor the size of a 35mm film. Why pay $9000, $13,000, or more when a 35mm camera will be able to do the same for less than half the amount charged for a digital back? We have used Bronica SQ cameras since l984 when the first SQ came out. That year I bought a Bronica camera complete with 2 additional lenses for $2100. We are now going to start selling our medium format cameras to buy more digital. Last year 90% of my work was digital. The FujiS2 takes pictures that are as sharp has our medium format equipment. I don't think the Fuji is all that much sharper than the Canon D60 but flash system, in my opinion, is much better. Hope this explains what my studio is doing or where we plan to head. The Fuji files seem to take less work in photoshop.
Have a great day,
David Miller

[Tony B]

Thanks David for the informative reply. Makes a lot of sense. You are absolutely correct also that "working" photographers need gear that WORKS! I have to admit, I've been very frustrated at times with my earlier D30 and the D60s with their awful low light AF since much of my event work is in low light settings. I've spent considerable time and effort (and money) on "work-arounds" for the AF problems. Sounds like the S2 is much better in the AF department also.

I hadn't realized that the digital backs for the MF bodies has such a small sensor... but now that I think about the specs, you are proabably correct in predicting less demand for the MF digital backs...

Since reading your earlier post this morning, I did some research on the S2 and it does seem to be a really great imager !! And perhaps more suited to studio use than the D100 (D100 does not even have a PC terminal !!).

Cheers,

Tony

[David Miller]

Dear Tony,
Good to hear from you again. I have been checking the internet in between my printing on the Fuji Pictrography 3500. I don't really want to sound so negative about the Canon D60. For some studios it might be a great camera but as a low-light event camera its not the best. I also needed a fast candid flash camera which the Canon D60 isn't the best either. Have you tried Canon's raw file system? Canons raw file software is really great. The first 4 or 5 weddings I shot using raw files. I really liked the re-naming and re-numbering system in the raw software because it works quite well. It is really fast but boy does it eat-up the hard drive. I haven't had time to check out the raw file system on my new FujiS2 yet but hope to within the next couple of weeks. I didn't know that the D100 didn't have a PC connector. I really don't need a PC connector because I use Pocket Wizzard radio slaves all the time. I'm always tripping on the PC cords so I have done away with them. I used to keep my digital camera on "automatic white balance". I really don't understand why this is a "default" setting on a digital camera. With a film camera, 99% of the time we use daylight balanced film. I tried to shoot settings in my studio with digital camera on AWS but depending upon the background and clothes the subject is wearing, the color can really shift. We now keep the digital camera on "daylight" and now our studio pictures have really improved. I must be careful at a wedding because sometimes I change the white balance and forget to change it back. Time to go, my pictrol printer has stopped. Good talking to you.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[Tony B]

Hi David,

I think you are correct... the D60 has a lot of strengths, but it does not lend itself to fast paced event work in low light with E-TTL flash, at least not to the degree that the film bodies do. I'm still learning the best techniques for my applications - although I'm pretty comfortable that I've got it down.

It appears to me that the S2 is really the sweet spot for many working photographers. Excellent image quality (according to you, others, and dpreview.com), better low light AF than the D60, and apparently better TTL flash ?

Each of the DSLR's on the market now appear to have their own set of strengths and weaknesses and the best one depends on the buyer's needs. I feel that the pro level film bodies are still way beyond the digital bodies when it comes to consistent results and intuitive fast handling.. guess its the nature of the technology.

When using the SB-28, are you using it in the TTL mode? I understand the SB-28 also has an auto-thryristor mode ? I wish the 550EX units has an "auto" mode that was not dependent on the E-TTL... sort of like a souped up 283 :-).

After you've used the S2's awhile longer, give us a report back. Thanks for all the information David.

Tony

[David Miller]

Hi Tony,
When we bought our first FujiS1 it was my intention to use it with the SB-28 in the TTL mode. According to the instruction manual that came with the camera, the S1 should have worked in the TTL mode. To make a long story short, it didn't. We got many under-exposed files. The SB-28 does have an "auto" position which worked quite well with the S1. Had the 550EX had an auto position I would probably still own the D60. Two of us photographers have over 75 digital weddings under our belt with the S1 with good results. Some of the files that are not exposed correctly are made into B&W images and now we are considered "creative". June 7 of this year I got my first Canon D60 with 550EX flash. Boy was I excited! It didn't take long to find out that I our altar shots were really good (we used two external Calumet Travelites on stands) but our candid flash pictures were not so hot. Many files were under-exposed! To answer your question is that the 550EX has two settings - manual or ETTL. There is no setting where the flash sets the exposure independly of the camera.
I will know more about the FujiS2 after this weekend and next. The Senior pictures I took with the S2 are exceptional, I believe better than the D60. The S2 seems to have more contrast and color saturation. The files take less work in photoshop than the Canon files. I had hoped the Canon D60 would have made a good candid wedding camera but I was dissappointed. I might not care for the S2 but so far with the tests that I have conducted, the camera seems to get the job done.
Respectfully,
Davidd Miller

[miro]

David, do you have any experience with Canon 1D?

[David Miller]

Miro,
I have no experience with the Canon 1D. Until we began using digital cameras, less than 5% of my studio work was done with 35mm so I never needed a high- end 35mm camera. We use the Canon A2 with good results. My studio has been medium format for the last 20+ years. We began shooting seniors and weddings last summer with the digital camera. Since then almost all my work has been digital using the FujiS1. We have made some beautiful 20X24's and larger with this camera. I needed a camera with an ASA of 100 which is one of the reasons I switched to the Canon D60. By this time next year I should be 100% digital.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[miro]

David, thank you so much for response. Where do you see your studio going? Which equipment will you probably end up using? I'm very interested because I intend investing substantial amount of money into new camera. I have D30 with several lenses, but I'm open for any suggestions. I am dissapointed with D30+550ex flash and couldn't agree with you more. Please keep me updated. One question, though. On S2, which picture saving mode do you use? It seems you can fit only so many photos on 1GB... Also, spec says it's 6 MP camera, 11MP interpolated. What do you use?

Best regards,
-Miro

[David Miller]

Dear Miro,
I'm not sure where my studio will be heading in the future. My intentions are to be completely digital next year will very little, if any, film usage. If fact, I intend to start selling some of my medium and large format cameras. All I know is that I'm glad that I didn't jump into the digital camera market when it cost $25,000 to $30,000 dollars for a digital camera. I probably would have purchased the FujiS2 to start with but it wasn't available in June when I started shooting my seniors. Last year I used the S1 for seniors but I had problems with the ASA320 slow speed setting. The ASA setting and ETTL feature caught my eye and since I purchase lots of supplies from my supplier I had no problem getting to the front of the line for the Canon D60. I'm not an equipment junkie and I really can't tell you much about the camera specks for any brand of camera. All I care about is that the system works and that the files will work easy in Photoshop. No more-no less. I see Canon will soon have a full-frame digital camera. Of course the Contax D has a full frame digital camera to. No doubt the rest of the manufacturing companies will start making full-frame digital cameras so I don't think there will be any need to purchase a digital back for a medium format camera. The current medium format digital backs use a sensor the size of a 35mm frame. Why pay $9,000 to $19,000 for a back when we will be able to pay less than $6000 for a camera that has more lenses. Besides, 35mm lens are sharper that medium format lens so we will have the best of both worlds. I have made some really good 20X24 and larger prints with the S1 which only has a 3meg file. Imagine what could be done with a full-frame 12meg file! I shoot mostly Jpeg files at about 3megs. This gives me approximately 440 shots on my 1 Gig microdrives. I can make really good 8X10's, 11X14's, and an occasional 16X20. Most seniors are interested in 8X10's and smaller pictures. I did shoot my first 5 weddings with the Canon D60 in the raw mode which I'm glad I did because I had several under-exposed flash pictures. The raw software really works good to correct these files. Shooting in Tiff and Jpeg requires really good exposures. I try to keep my exposures between -.75 and 0. I got more important things to do that spend my time trying to correct bad files in photoshop. Warning!!! Just because you are using RAW try to keep tight tolerances on your exposures. You can probable correct a file that is 1-1 1/2 exposures under but forget it if you are over-exposed. Over-exposures are almost impossible to correct so make it easy on yourself and don't over-expose! Time to go to church-hope to hear from you soon.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[David Miller]

My last post,
I just did an extensive shoot with the FujiS2 at a major industrial company. This involved both indoor and outdoor pictures in bright sunlight. The FujiS2 performed perfectly. Great exposures and great flash pictures. I used the Nikon SB-28 flash which I had purchased for the S1 last summer. Are there any drawbacks? Not many. The TTL system works great but is limited to ASA speeds of 100 to 400. Also the shutter speed is limited to 1/125 of a second. Outdoors I set the ASA to 100 and the shutter speed to 1/125 of a second. Of course in bright sun light the F-stop was f16 which limits the SB-28 to about 10 feet. Possibly a neutral density filter or I could find a stronger flash that would correct the problem with outdoor flash fill-in pictures. Indoors set at ASA 400 the flash worked perfectly each time. Quantum makes a flash that would work but I'm not keen on using a flash that requires a battery-pack. Most of my flash pictures at a wedding are under 20 feet(candid shots). I plan to sell off some of my medium format equipment and purchase another S2 as soon as possible. I wish you D60 boys the best of luck with your cameras. Until Canon can come up with a good candid flash system I think I will stick with Fuji.
Best of luck,
David Miller

[Tony B]

David,

Thanks for the update. Your experiences and observations have been most informative. Your work with the S2 sure provides some insight into that model's strengths...

Cheers,

Tony

[miro]

David, by any chance did you (or anyone else for that matter) disable fill in flash auto reduction (custom function 10). I just tried it (according to letter from canon - look at my webpage) and flash exposures look *VERY* consistant. I need to make some more tests, but it seems like major improvement.

Cheers,
-Miro

[David Miller]

Miro,
I just called my friend in Springfield about the custom function 10 and he said he checked and his was turned off! His aisle shots at the last wedding were all over the place. He was using digital SHO to try and correct. I didn't have time to play with the D60 so I sold mine and bought the FujiS2. So far all my flash pictures have been really good! I took close to 200 files last Sunday at the Excel Corp. open house and the files were good!
I checked out your web-site and I hope some of the other guys and gals on this forum does the same. Looks real Good!!!!! Keep up the good work.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[miro]

David, I'm sorry, I don't understand. Was custom function 10 turned off (0), or fill-in flash auto reduction was turned off...? Custom function 10 should be 1 for this to work...

Can someone else also try this setting to verify the result...?

Cheers,
-Miro