I'm curious. What makes the DReb so bad for action photos?

[FlipsidE]

I'm just curious. I've heard that the Dreb is just not a camera suited for Action Photography. But, what about it makes it that way?

Thanks in advance

FlipsidE

[snibbetsj]

It doesn't have AI Servo focus (except in Sports mode). This feature will "track" the focus point keeping the subject in focus (fairly well). So if you want a well focused photo of an action shot with the Rebel you need a small aperture and a fast shutter speed. Not the best combo for most sports.

Jeff

[FlipsidE]

Makes perfect sense now. I do appreciate it.

FlipsidE

[PacAce]

It doesn't have AI Servo focus (except in Sports mode). This feature will "track" the focus point keeping the subject in focus (fairly well). So if you want a well focused photo of an action shot with the Rebel you need a small aperture and a fast shutter speed. Not the best combo for most sports.

Jeff

But that still doesn't completely explain why the DRebel is not a good sports camera because you do have AI Servo with the DRebel in the Sports mode.

I think the other reason why the DRebel doesn't make a good sports camera is because it just doesn't have a fast frame rate along with the fact that it doesn't have a big enough buffer to be able to keep up with the fast action of most sports. After a couple of shots, it'll be so busy writing the images out to the card that you'll be standing there watching the action happening while you wait for the camera to free up again. The same thing happens on the 10D, too, although you can get a couple of more shots between the "breaks".

[robertwgross]

I think the other reason why the DRebel doesn't make a good sports camera is because it just doesn't have a fast frame rate along with the fact that it doesn't have a big enough buffer to be able to keep up with the fast action of most sports. ...

If all sports photographers were absolutely perfect, then they could hit the shutter button once and capture the exact split second moment that really captures the action.

However, a shutter button press is a human brain-to-index finger action, and you never know which tenth of a second it will start and end. As a result, you may get the perfect frame, and you may get something one tenth too early, or two tenths too late.

That's where the sports photographers get the good out of a really fast camera with a fast rep rate and big buffer. They can learn to get on the button just a fraction of a second too early, and then they capture a burst of ten (or whatever). If frames 1-4 are too early, and frames 7-10 are too late, then frames 5 and 6 might be absolutely perfect.

However, an ordinary Digital Rebel shooter can shoot good sports photos. It just takes more luck. Maybe a lot more.

---Bob Gross---

[FlipsidE]

As action photography won't be my primary focus, I think the four shots before the buffer fills will probably be enough. I know it's rather slow in frames per second, but I can probably deal with that too. Funny though...I plan to shoot wakeboarding events with a 100-400L and a Dreb. Yep, a $1400 lens for an entry level DSLR. This is all months in the future of course, but I'm kinda excited about it. Main wakeboarding season is already over here. So, I'll have to wait until next season (probably starts in late April or May).

FlipsidE

[snibbetsj]

FlipsidE wrote:
Yep, a $1400 lens for an entry level DSLR

What's wrong with that? :)

Jeff

[FlipsidE]

FlipsidE wrote:
Yep, a $1400 lens for an entry level DSLR

What's wrong with that? :)

Jeff

I dunno...just seems out of place. Seems one of those semi-high end L lenses belongs on a 20D at least.

FlipsidE

[Kinger]

FlipsidE wrote:
Yep, a $1400 lens for an entry level DSLR

What's wrong with that? :)

Jeff

I dunno...just seems out of place. Seems one of those semi-high end L lenses belongs on a 20D at least.

FlipsidE

I see nothing wrong with that, I plan on doing the same thing in the spring. In fact I almost got one on eba the other day, there were 3 of them, but they all sold above what I would be willing to pay for a usd one.

[snibbetsj]

snibbetsj wrote:
FlipsidE wrote:
Yep, a $1400 lens for an entry level DSLR


What's wrong with that?

Jeff


I dunno...just seems out of place. Seems one of those semi-high end L lenses belongs on a 20D at least.


Nothing wrong with it. The DRebel is a fine camera and can produce wonderful photos. Look at some of 'em. Plenty of gorgeous portrait, landscape, macro, nature and even wedding shots with the Dreb, some great sports pics too. timmyquest got some great action shots with his DRebel and 70-200 f2.8, before he got his 1D, and so did a lot of other folks. Don't think twice about about getting good lens, they're worth it.

Just my 2 cents :)

Jeff

[robertwgross]

Seems one of those semi-high end L lenses belongs on a 20D at least.

The beginner asks the question "What kind of lens should I hang on my camera body?"

The expert asks "What kind of camera body should I hang on my lens?"

Think about that.

---Bob Gross---

[Cadwell]

That's where the sports photographers get the good out of a really fast camera with a fast rep rate and big buffer. They can learn to get on the button just a fraction of a second too early, and then they capture a burst of ten (or whatever). If frames 1-4 are too early, and frames 7-10 are too late, then frames 5 and 6 might be absolutely perfect.

Ah... the "spray and pray" brigade... :roll:

The best motorsports photographers I know shoot in single shot mode. They understand what they are shooting and they anticipate the action to get the best shots. If I hear a shutter going in "machine gun" mode, I can be fairly certain that it's coming from the public side of the debris fences.

[defordphoto]

LOL! This never fails to get me rolling. The photog out at the the track with the latest, greatest, fastest camera in the land. But, no! Dare he shoot at max FPS? NO! That would be sacriligeous! How dare he use his camera to the maximum.

Not unlike the racecar driver refusing to kick on the turbo to pass the leader for the win. Just as ridiculous.

ALWAYS use your cameras to the fullest abilities. If you have 8.5FPS and 40-plus frames to shoot. Go for it.

And, should the photo gods shudder (grin) in their graves, but yes, use both AF and AE!

It never fails to amaze me the number of people with $4000-plus cameras that shoot manual. Yes, I shoot manual from time-to-time, but I'll use every capability of my camera(s) whenever I can to maximize the shot.

Shooting full manual focus and exposure does not make you an artist over the person shooting full auto. What makes The Artist is maximizing their skills and their equipment together to produce art.

[blackviolet]

But that still doesn't completely explain why the DRebel is not a good sports camera because you do have AI Servo with the DRebel in the Sports mode.

if i remember correctly, you are stuck in iso 400 in sportsmode on the 300d. the latest firmware hack featured 'semi-automatic' ai-servo - it would track the focus, but you had to quickly remove your finger and then depress the shutter to take the picture.

one of the best things that i love about the 1d over the 10d (i assume this also applies to 20d) for sports is the lack of accidental setting changes when i'm running up an down the sidelines. it would be great if you could set a function to require a button press to change aperture or shutterspeed.

[KennyG]

Jim, I am going to back up Cadwell to the hilt here. The spray and pray approach isn't the method used by any professional motorsport photographer I know, it is simply a skill-less way of making sure you get something right out of a sequence, maybe. The worst shots taken at circuits I work at are from the 1D owners who just point at the action and keep the button pressed.

What you are intimating is that if someone makes a fully automatic camera that you can just leave trackside to take pictures while you are in the bar, transferring them directly to your publisher, that will still make you a photographer? Hmmm... I think not.

Sports photographers have to have more skills than knowing which button to press, or settings to use. They first should understand the sport they are photographing and be able to read what is going to happen next. I can easily tell the difference between the styles of some well-known UK motorsport photographers, without the need of any credits, as some of them treat it just as a job to get a useable shot, where others knew the right one was coming.

Burst has its place, no doubt about that. It is used when taking pictures of say the winner being interviewed, as it can be hard to get the right shot with a dozen flashes going off around you and also avoiding the subject with open mouth or closed eyes. But to use it for every shot on the circuit just because it is there I am sorry to say does nothing for me or the majority of pro's that I work with.

[defordphoto]

KennyG: I agree with you 100%. :)

To just point the camera at any action and hold the button down is absolutely ludicrous. That is not what I was saying. But, when a high action moment presents itself, then a burst is definitely called for. And rarely would there be a chance to fry 40 frames. This whole season I had one long burst of 25 frames and that was it. Ironically, it was my very first shoot with the MKII. The rest of the bursts -- which were few -- were no more than a handful of frames at best.

My point is that I hear so much about photogs poo-pooing the technology and boasting that shooting full manual makes them some kind of artist. That is also ludicrous. An artist uses the tools he/she has at hand to the fullest extent for the given situation, whether it be full manual or full auto.

[Persian-Rice]

The 300D is not awful for sports, it's just not as good as the other cameras out there. Slower focusing, slower fps(if you use it :D) and focusing is less accurate(byproduct of its speed). Again there is a lack of the AI servo and some others.

BTW, just for the sake of argument, is there anything wrong with bursting for two shots? lol god forbid I take a seconds shot via auto shutter. :D
Really, if you are shooting on assignment and it's between getting a shot you need or sticking with you "photography morals", what would you choose? I honestly think anyone who refuses to use it is a sucker, atleast in a case like that.

[stevo12886]

Ok, this has peaked my interest now. You say that the focus is slower on the Dreb, but is it any slower than the 10D? And really, is there any autofocus that could keep up with a race car (or bike for that matter), hurteling around 160 mph (ok, so that speed was a guess, you got me) on the downhill at Road atlanta?
I also wonder, what is it about the 10D that lets it have a faster framerate and a larger buffer, it though it had identical inards to the Dreb.

[defordphoto]

Persian-Rice: When the action happens, I'll burst however many shots it takes to get The Shot, but I do not shoot spray-and-pray. Did you ever see the photos of the Olympics photogs? Massive numbers of multiple cameras shooting wireless from multiple angles. Amazing stuff. Ever see the finish line at a big horse race? Several hundred cameras all firing wireless and all firing maximum FPS for The Shot.

Stevo: The problem with the Drebel is that its AI Servo is less than adequate. I have shot 230mph cars and 0-90 in 2.3-second sprint boats with the 10d and did quite well. Got a cover and 4, 2-page spreads and an advert in FHM Mag with the 10D.

You can shoot sports with the Drebel, but you will miss a lot of shots. You will get some killer shots too, but you'll have to be right on the ball and have a bucket-full of luck to make it happen.

Once you have shot a faster camera, you'll understand. It opens your world. I know. I have progressed from a D60 to a 10D to a 1D MKII and now also the 20D as a backup for me and a main shooter for my wife.

I will never say the Drebel sucks, because it does what it does very well and produces some excellent photos, but it does have some pretty heavy limitations.

[Persian-Rice]

Yep the 10D is equal in focusing.
Yes there are cameras that can do that. Both 1D cameras are capable of handeling motorsports. You should try one, I tried my classmates and now I'm saving to buy a couple lol.

[MarkH]

Ok, this has peaked my interest now. You say that the focus is slower on the Dreb, but is it any slower than the 10D? And really, is there any autofocus that could keep up with a race car (or bike for that matter), hurteling around 160 mph (ok, so that speed was a guess, you got me) on the downhill at Road atlanta?
I also wonder, what is it about the 10D that lets it have a faster framerate and a larger buffer, it though it had identical inards to the Dreb.

My understanding is that there are differences in the innards, mainly in the amount of memory fitted for buffering. I know the sensor is the same.

Shooting motorsports with my 10D there have been plenty of times when something dramatic happens and my 10D fills its buffer. When this happens I am glad I don't have a 300D but wouldn't mind if I had a 20D instead.

[malla1962]

I'm just curious. I've heard that the Dreb is just not a camera suited for Action Photography. But, what about it makes it that way?

Thanks in advance

FlipsidEthe d rebel was my first slr,i got it 3 weeks before going to a florida airshow. i allso got a 70-200 f4l.i did not have mutch experiance on slr photography,put it on action mode and got some realy good shots.i got more keepers than i expected.i have seen some verry good action shots taken with
the rebel on diferant sites.i think most will agree the camera is a tool and
you must learn how to use it. :D

[Cadwell]

And really, is there any autofocus that could keep up with a race car (or bike for that matter), hurteling around 160 mph (ok, so that speed was a guess, you got me) on the downhill at Road atlanta?


According to the oft quoted Mr. Chuck Westfall of Canon USA in his snappily titled publication "GETTING THE MOST FROM YOUR EOS-1 CLASS DIGITAL SLR TIPS AND TECHNIQUES: CAMERA HANDLING & MAXIMUM IMAGE QUALITY" :roll: whilst talking about "predictive AF" he said:

"Using an EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM lens and a fully charged battery pack, the original EOS-1 with Power Drive Booster PB-E1 could track a subject moving at 300 kph/186 mph as close as 26 meters/85 ft. Using an EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM lens and a fully charged battery pack, an EOS-1D Mark II or EOS-1Ds Mark II can track a subject moving at 300 kph/186 mph as close as 20 meters/66 ft. "

[IncompletePete]

I use my 1D's high FPS quite often, it doesn't make me any less than a photographer! If 2 footballers are running along, battlling for the ball, you want to take many shots to make sure you get the one you want, it's vital given the speed of the action!

[commando]

My understanding is that there are differences in the innards, mainly in the amount of memory fitted for buffering. I know the sensor is the same.

I was under the impression that the 10D has a CCD and the 300D a CMOS sensor. Then again i've been reading a lot of stuff lately, I could have mixed them up.

[defordphoto]

They both have CMOS. Essentially the same sensor although the electronics behind them are quite different to reduce the price on the Dreb. The 1D is CCD.

[commando]

They both have CMOS. Essentially the same sensor although the electronics behind them are quite different to reduce the price on the Dreb. The 1D is CCD.

Thanks RFM.

[IndyJeff]

Let me chime in on this subject, the Dreb isn't a good sports camera for many reasons, all of which have been mentioned. Is that to say you can't use it for sports? No but, with a limited number of shots on the burst rate plus the fact that it is not a very high FPS makes two good reasons not to use it for sports.

Now as to the spray and pray shooters, well if you see someone just pointing and firing off all he can get each time he activates the shutter, I am willing to bet that in 300 images he will have maybe 2-3 that are worth a hoot. There is nothing wrong with firing a burst of 3-5 to get the shot your looking for tho. Who knows you may have more than one keeper which will make it harder to decide which one is the best and you, or an editor, wants to have more than just one shot to look at.
Lets take race cars as an example....is it possible to shoot one frame and get a keeper of just that one car? Yes, I do it all the time. I sometimes fire off maybe 3 shots and have a choice. Different angles are in each shot. Somtimes it is better to shoot more than one. Last year at the Brickyard I fired off one frame of Tony Stewart as he was qualifying. Good shot except that reflection of the sun just in front of the drivers side window ruined it. If I would have fired 3, I would have gotten what I needed that day. No other car had that problem, something about the paint scheme and the perfect angle did me in on that one.

Now in other sports, a burst is in your best interest. You never know what will be the best time to shoot for the best shot. So your better off to have a choice of several. What if a guy is about to catch a pass, your following him and you shoot just as the ball hits his hands. BAMM you got that shot but before he comes back down with the ball a DB comes in and flattens him. You won't get the impact of that hit, I guarentee unless your firing a burst.
In baseball your tracking an outfielder as he is chasing a fly ball. You fire off one frame as he catches the ball and get the ball just above the glove. Then as quickly as you can imagine it happening, he runs full speed into the wall. BAMM out like a light. I, once again, guarentee you won't catch the impact on the wall. You might get him on the way to the ground but, not the impact even if your watching thru the camera. Your not that quick, nobody is.

As has been said many times at Indy, "Did you see it?" If you answered "yes" then you heard "well then you didn't get it." If you see it in the camera your not going to have a shot of it.

[defordphoto]

As has been said many times at Indy, "Did you see it?" If you answered "yes" then you heard "well then you didn't get it." If you see it in the camera your not going to have a shot of it.

Great writeup Jeff. The last line says it all. I love it when I get back to the media center and then look at the photos to see what I've got. It's so exciting to see the shots and the action that you "didn't see."

Also when bursting 3-4-5 frames or so, especially in motorsports, there are HUGE differences between frames when your subject is moving at 200-plus mph.

[IndyJeff]

Yeah Jim I know exactly what you mean. During a crash, you catch a glimpse of what is happening but your not exactly sure until you see the film, or as the case is now days, chimp.

When Stan Fox had his devastaing crash on the first lap at Indy, 1995, I had no idea how bad the wreck was and until one guy who missed it completely started telling us how the car was airborne. That is when we started looking at the tire marks along the wall and could see how they were rising as the crash moved down the track. Even then you still don't know what you have. You ask yourself, did I have the impact centered? Was I on it all thru the crash?

This year at Indy I had a two car crash in 3. Two cars slid in unison towards the wall. I was right across from it and it looked good until I saw the results. I was shooting at 200mm and if I would have pulled back I would have had both cars in frame. As it was I was too tight and only had one of them but, the one I did have was a good shot. Lesson learned....when shooting deep, pull back LOL

Oh BTW, I didn't see it either LOL

[defordphoto]

:)

I was watching the 95 Indy on TV. Stan's accident is definitely in the top 10 of the modern era of American open-wheel racing.

[Adam Hicks]

The last IRL event I shot at the Texas Motor Speedway I remember shooting mainly single shot mode, as I was taking panned shots at 1/500 ot a bit faster. BUT the glory of a nice camera (faster than the DReb) is when someone starts to spin, or someone is heading straight for the wall. That's when you lock her down and let her go. You need every shot you can get until the car comes to a stop, and you want as many as you can get. I think I burst about 40 shots of a Nascar Truck series wreck that was pretty crazy. It happened not 50 yards from where I was shooting in the pits.

SO for what it's worth, that's how I've settled in to spray and pray. Take accurate, anticipated shots when you can, but have the machine gun ready when you need it!

Adam (who is headed into back surgery at noon, so this is his last post for a bit!)

[Jon, The Elder]

Hey Flipside -
Before this thread started wandering off, you asked about a 300D and the Canon 100/400L.

I have and used this combo for a year. They made me the money to buy my 20D. Horse shows and car track racing

A good photographer can compensate for a lot IF HE KNOWS HIS CAMERA. And that my friends is what it is all about !!

[Roach711]

In confession:

Me: Forgive me Father for I have sinned

Priest: Tell me your sins, my child

Me: Today I had lustful thoughts, took the Lord's name in vain, and filled my camera's shot buffer six times.

Priest: These are grevious sins, my child! Well, the first two are bush league but the buffer thing is nearly unforgivable! For penance, say ten Hail Mary's and have your camera permanently locked in single shot mode. Go forth and sin no more!

[FlipsidE]

Adam (who is headed into back surgery at noon, so this is his last post for a bit!)

- Wish you all the best, Adam.

FlipsidE

[JX]

FlipsidE,

What really matters is how you use your camera. My first camera was a Nikon F2. It did not have auto focus or a motor drive. I was able to take outstanding action pictures with that camera, and I am sure that I could do the same with your Digital Rebel. If you have the money to upgrade to a 20D or a 1D Mark II, then getting good action shots will be a lot easier, but it does not mean that you can not get good quality action shots with your Digital Rebel.

[defordphoto]

Adam (who is headed into back surgery at noon, so this is his last post for a bit!)

- Wish you all the best, Adam.

FlipsidE

Yeah. Prayers for ya Adam. Be well.

[WriterMom]

Stevo: The problem with the Drebel is that its AI Servo is less than adequate. I have shot 230mph cars and 0-90 in 2.3-second sprint boats with the 10d and did quite well. Got a cover and 4, 2-page spreads and an advert in FHM Mag with the 10D.
Is the 10D's AI Servo better than that of the Drebel? So you'd consider the 10D a much better camera for sports photography than the Drebel?

[CyberDyneSystems]

Is the 10D's AI Servo better than that of the Drebel? So you'd consider the 10D a much better camera for sports photography than the Drebel?

Check this thread,.. essentially asking the same question;
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53437

:)

[Jon, The Elder]

Yup - RFMsports and I agree in concept here.

I shoot car track races and horse show events.

I can anticipate pretty good after 30+ years, on just when the car is in position or the horse/rider are "right together".

However- I use the camera burst to back myself up. That tenth of a second makes all the difference.

If the feature is there - why is it there, to USE of course.

And yes I shot with the 100-400L on my 300D.
One of the primary reasons I bought the 20D, was increased speed all around.

[Torcidas]

I used 300D for almost a year in sport photography, and I was i think 1st one in Croatia who buy 20D when he got out.

300D is definitly not for shooting fast moving objects (you can picture many sport events with it), like car races, soccer, basketball and else.

300D don't have AI SERVO exept in sport mode, and in sport mode you can't change many details what I as sport photographer want (automatic ISO max to ISO 400). So you can imagine how frustrating is when i download pictures on laptop and see that many perfect photos are destroyed because he don't have AI SERVO...

Wasia hack help a lot with many custom functions, but didn't make AI SERVO to work. (AI SERVO is on, but you can't take picture with it) :(

There is way to turn AI SERVO in custom modes on, but it is realy pain in the ass so I almost never used it...

[timmyquest]

I dunno...just seems out of place. Seems one of those semi-high end L lenses belongs on a 20D at least.

FlipsidE


My 70-200 f/2.8 fits just fine on my rebel 2000 thank you very much.