State of the Industry Photography Discussion

[LeesaB]

Recently at a local Pro photog group meeting a speaker really brought up some interesting points, I am placing his powerpoint presentation here for you all to see and to discuss how we feel about the points he brings up.

http://www.sonopp.com/Perspectives/Weddings2008/Wedding%20Photography%202008.pdf

[sapearl]

Really dynamite stuff Lisa - thanks for sharing! I think this really does show a lot of insight into the current state of the industry.

I'm one of the old farts who started with with MF film back in the early 70's doing weddings, and it was only a couple of years ago that I was dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age...... one of the best decisions I ever made :D.

I am a little confused though... according to the author, on the one hand I am an "amateur" because I derive most of my income from another job; but I am an "professional" because I have a vendors license and collect sales tax. Oh well, no definition is perfect. But I do believe the author has identified many of the problems we face today. - Stu

[LeesaB]

It was a very heated "discussion" from what I understand, I did not attend but have been getting emails,Pm's and updates about it.

I think he has a few good points and I also think there are a few things that are a bit far removed.

Anxious to hear what others think.

[Balliolman]

I am not a wedding photographer but the points made in the slides, I am confident, must have stirred up a buzz!

[ssim]

I assume that he was probably speaking to a faction of the PPA in Ohio or some other similar association. Part of the problem is that in a setting such as this he is preaching to the choir to a large degree. I doubt that he got much argument from most of those attending and even those that were "guilty" according to his presentation probably sat quiet. Complacency can be your own worst enemy.

I want to take a few minutes and comment on parts that I really find interesting and factual to a large degree. Keep in mind that my comments are in generality and there are always exceptions to the rule.

I'm not sure many will agree with his interpretation of what constitutes a professional versus an amateur. I'm not sure how the industry can come up with a clear definition or whether they really should. I know if matters alot to some weekend warriors to be called a "professional". When someone asks me what I do for a living I tell them that I am a photographer. I would never say "professional photographer". That just sounds too hokey to me. Just like professional plumber, professional pilot, professional toilet cleaner, you get the message. I find too many people are hung up on that "professional" tag and in my experience it is the people that are doing this job part time that have the need for that.

He talks about using drug store printing services versus a professional lab. That subject has been beat to death here but it is a very valid point. If you cannot afford to use the services of a pro lab at a few cents more then you need to revisit your pricing structure. I have always used a pro lab and recently I needed a handful of prints very quickly for a customer. I could have printed them myself and while I enjoy the ability to print for myself I just will not give ink jet prints to a customer based on what they are paying for the print. There had been alot of discussion on one western Canadian based drugstore chain in one of our forums. I thought that I would give them a try as I had to use someone in a hurry. The process was seamless enough but the results were disappointing. The quality of the color was acceptable (not great but acceptable) but what really turned me off was that they took no effort to remove the curl of the paper from the rolled paper that they run through their machines. It just screamed amateurism. The price difference on these 5X7's between them and my normal lab, 13 cents.

Slide 81 "It was the amateurs who began the trend of giving the bride the CD"
Slide 82 "Amateurs gave away the CD to the bride in part because they did not want to or were incapable of creating a quality wedding album"


I do agree with the concept of what he is saying in the above statements. You have to give some credit to the weekend warriors, they saw this as an opportunity in being able to leverage this to their advantage and have done a bang up job of convincing the brides that this is what they should do. I have seen people on here that will cut a CD at the event and give it to the customer rather than have to deal with the post processing. I still do not provide CD/DVD of images, even low resolution. So far I have been successful in being able to convince the couple that they are better off having me do the post processing and printing. I do believe that there is a significant margin of accuracy in his belief that alot of amateurs do this because they are either incapable of doing the good post processing, they just can't be bothered or they don't have the time because of their full time employment. IMO, this whole CD/DVD has hurt the wedding industry. I have however seen some absolute fantastic post processing by amateurs and some horrid work by pros.

Slide 48 "Many of those other ‘photographers photographers’ undercharge for their photos because they don don’t know t what they should charge"

This subject really gets me. How many times have we seen this on our forum. Not only weddings but all areas of the industry. It smacks of amateurism when do not know how to price or where to find this information. The premise of establishing an business (let's not forget that this is a business) is to make money and part of that is knowing what to charge. If your resource for finding this out is a forum board where the majority of the contributors are cloaked in anonymity I think you need to revisit your goals and objectives.

I'm not sure that I agree with his approach of telling the bride that she doesn't need slip covers on the chairs, a limo and the other things mentioned in slide 58. There are some valid points there but I have always tried to focus on positive selling points rather than portraying a negative towards other photographers or items you might want in a wedding. I know this was a self serving message but no limo, come on now that is almost as standard as a photographer.

He speaks to how the amateurs describe themselves on their sites (slide 106). The one that gets me and again rings amateurish overtones is the one that goes something like "me daddy bought me a camera when I was 12 and I was hooked" or "photography has always been a hobby and my friends kept telling me how good I was". Of course this is all a personal choice in what you want to place in your "about me" but at the end of the day does the customer need to know or really care about your hobby or what you were doing when you were a teenager.

I really do disagree with him on his approach to what equipment you need to have. You do not need to have the absolute best that is available. It is great if you can but it is highly doubtful that most can take is approach. He is correct in his assumption that most professional photographers that shot film weddings used medium format cameras. I have never shot a wedding in 35mm film and all my work was done in medium format and I still will shoot a wedding in these from time to time. Very good work can be done with a nnD class of camera and all things being equal in lighting, post processing, etc. it is very difficult, bordering on impossible to tell the difference from a wedding shot taken on a 20D vs a 1DMKII. Glass is ultimately the more important decision in this equation, imo.

Digital certainly has brought a whole new dimension to the arena of professional photography. The concept of shooting a wedding is not a whole lot different today than it was 15 years ago. If you were interested in photography why didn't you start doing this when it was film only. I know that feeling of sending a few dozen rolls of film to the lab and waiting patiently for them to come back and there are those butterflies when you first open up the proofs that you go back. That instant feedback in digital is a great safety feature.

It is possible that the whole photography industry could see the demise of the brick and mortar studio. I've seen a number of local studios close up shop in the past few years. I've seen suggestions that there be a qualification/certification process in order to operate as a commercial entity, somewhat similar to a plumber or electrician. I wouldn't be against something like that. It would certainly provide a comfort level for the consumer that the person they are hiring has passed the qualification criteria. After all we are asking them to part with their hard earned money.

These are just some of my thoughts about the posted pdf. I do believe that he put alot of thought and effort into the presentation. I do have my flame resistant suit on now.:D

[airfrogusmc]

I am SO GLAD that I don't shoot weddings anymore. I used to be a Hassy guy like Stu. SO GLAD I do corporate work now in a very specialize field.:)

[ssim]

I am SO GLAD that I don't shoot weddings anymore. I used to be a Hassy guy like Stu. SO GLAD I do corporate work now in a very specialize field.:)

The thing for everyone to take note of is that this is not just a wedding photography issue. Like you I have a good contract with an advertising agency that I don't have to worry about this for me personally but I do worry about those that are trying to make it into photography in general. Whether it be portraits, sports groups, music, etc. alot of what he said will apply to those as well.

[LeesaB]

I am not a wedding photographer but the points made in the slides, I am confident, must have stirred up a buzz!

it sure did...and still is LOL

[LeesaB]

I assume that he was probably speaking to a faction of the PPA in Ohio or some other similar association. Part of the problem is that in a setting such as this he is preaching to the choir to a large degree. I doubt that he got much argument from most of those attending and even those that were "guilty" according to his presentation probably sat quiet. Complacency can be your own worst enemy.

I want to take a few minutes and comment on parts that I really find interesting and factual to a large degree. Keep in mind that my comments are in generality and there are always exceptions to the rule.

I'm not sure many will agree with his interpretation of what constitutes a professional versus an amateur. I'm not sure how the industry can come up with a clear definition or whether they really should. I know if matters alot to some weekend warriors to be called a "professional". When someone asks me what I do for a living I tell them that I am a photographer. I would never say "professional photographer". That just sounds too hokey to me. Just like professional plumber, professional pilot, professional toilet cleaner, you get the message. I find too many people are hung up on that "professional" tag and in my experience it is the people that are doing this job part time that have the need for that.

He talks about using drug store printing services versus a professional lab. That subject has been beat to death here but it is a very valid point. If you cannot afford to use the services of a pro lab at a few cents more then you need to revisit your pricing structure. I have always used a pro lab and recently I needed a handful of prints very quickly for a customer. I could have printed them myself and while I enjoy the ability to print for myself I just will not give ink jet prints to a customer based on what they are paying for the print. There had been alot of discussion on one western Canadian based drugstore chain in one of our forums. I thought that I would give them a try as I had to use someone in a hurry. The process was seamless enough but the results were disappointing. The quality of the color was acceptable (not great but acceptable) but what really turned me off was that they took no effort to remove the curl of the paper from the rolled paper that they run through their machines. It just screamed amateurism. The price difference on these 5X7's between them and my normal lab, 13 cents.

Slide 81 "It was the amateurs who began the trend of giving the bride the CD"
Slide 82 "Amateurs gave away the CD to the bride in part because they did not want to or were incapable of creating a quality wedding album"


I do agree with the concept of what he is saying in the above statements. You have to give some credit to the weekend warriors, they saw this as an opportunity in being able to leverage this to their advantage and have done a bang up job of convincing the brides that this is what they should do. I have seen people on here that will cut a CD at the event and give it to the customer rather than have to deal with the post processing. I still do not provide CD/DVD of images, even low resolution. So far I have been successful in being able to convince the couple that they are better off having me do the post processing and printing. I do believe that there is a significant margin of accuracy in his belief that alot of amateurs do this because they are either incapable of doing the good post processing, they just can't be bothered or they don't have the time because of their full time employment. IMO, this whole CD/DVD has hurt the wedding industry. I have however seen some absolute fantastic post processing by amateurs and some horrid work by pros.

Slide 48 "Many of those other ‘photographers photographers’ undercharge for their photos because they don don’t know t what they should charge"

This subject really gets me. How many times have we seen this on our forum. Not only weddings but all areas of the industry. It smacks of amateurism when do not know how to price or where to find this information. The premise of establishing an business (let's not forget that this is a business) is to make money and part of that is knowing what to charge. If your resource for finding this out is a forum board where the majority of the contributors are cloaked in anonymity I think you need to revisit your goals and objectives.

I'm not sure that I agree with his approach of telling the bride that she doesn't need slip covers on the chairs, a limo and the other things mentioned in slide 58. There are some valid points there but I have always tried to focus on positive selling points rather than portraying a negative towards other photographers or items you might want in a wedding. I know this was a self serving message but no limo, come on now that is almost as standard as a photographer.

He speaks to how the amateurs describe themselves on their sites (slide 106). The one that gets me and again rings amateurish overtones is the one that goes something like "me daddy bought me a camera when I was 12 and I was hooked" or "photography has always been a hobby and my friends kept telling me how good I was". Of course this is all a personal choice in what you want to place in your "about me" but at the end of the day does the customer need to know or really care about your hobby or what you were doing when you were a teenager.

I really do disagree with him on his approach to what equipment you need to have. You do not need to have the absolute best that is available. It is great if you can but it is highly doubtful that most can take is approach. He is correct in his assumption that most professional photographers that shot film weddings used medium format cameras. I have never shot a wedding in 35mm film and all my work was done in medium format and I still will shoot a wedding in these from time to time. Very good work can be done with a nnD class of camera and all things being equal in lighting, post processing, etc. it is very difficult, bordering on impossible to tell the difference from a wedding shot taken on a 20D vs a 1DMKII. Glass is ultimately the more important decision in this equation, imo.

Digital certainly has brought a whole new dimension to the arena of professional photography. The concept of shooting a wedding is not a whole lot different today than it was 15 years ago. If you were interested in photography why didn't you start doing this when it was film only. I know that feeling of sending a few dozen rolls of film to the lab and waiting patiently for them to come back and there are those butterflies when you first open up the proofs that you go back. That instant feedback in digital is a great safety feature.

It is possible that the whole photography industry could see the demise of the brick and mortar studio. I've seen a number of local studios close up shop in the past few years. I've seen suggestions that there be a qualification/certification process in order to operate as a commercial entity, somewhat similar to a plumber or electrician. I wouldn't be against something like that. It would certainly provide a comfort level for the consumer that the person they are hiring has passed the qualification criteria. After all we are asking them to part with their hard earned money.

These are just some of my thoughts about the posted pdf. I do believe that he put alot of thought and effort into the presentation. I do have my flame resistant suit on now.:D
Really appreciate your comments. It's a really different thought and a few good ideas along with some very old thoughts.

[FlyingPhotog]

<SNIP>

These are just some of my thoughts about the posted pdf. I do believe that he put alot of thought and effort into the presentation. I do have my flame resistant suit on now.:D

Very, very well said...

[sapearl]

Am I a professional photographer? I'm not so sure anymore, at least according to Rice's original definition.

Sheldon brings up a good point here. According to Rice I am not a pro since that is not the main source of my livlihood. But on the other hand I've been a weekend warrior for 30+ years with over 400+ weddings and social events under my belt. This is significant, but less than many brick and mortar establishments which have done a greater volume.

But I certainly do not consider myself an amateur either.

I try to represent myself honestly in the marketplace, and maintain the bar at a high level. When potential clients visit I display my work, discuss service level and don't promise capabilities I can't deliver upon. In this regard I certainly am different than the full service studio that has gear and functionality that I do not. I point this out to them and point them in the studio's direction if thats' what they really want; I won't misrepresent.

But as far as self image goes, I just regard myself as a photographer who gets paid for weddings, events and the misc. odd job. I do it primarily for the pleasure and just happened to fall into the financial end of it. And that latter is very important because it finances the type of photography I REALLY love to do that does not pay :D. - Stu

......I'm not sure many will agree with his interpretation of what constitutes a professional versus an amateur. I'm not sure how the industry can come up with a clear definition or whether they really should. I know if matters alot to some weekend warriors to be called a "professional". When someone asks me what I do for a living I tell them that I am a photographer. I would never say "professional photographer". That just sounds too hokey to me. Just like professional plumber, professional pilot, professional toilet cleaner, you get the message. I find too many people are hung up on that "professional" tag and in my experience it is the people that are doing this job part time that have the need for that........:D

[LeesaB]

I don't consider you an amateur either.

I think sometimes people generalize without thinking.

I did not make the meeting not wishing I had but glad I got to see the aftermath in PDF.

[sapearl]

Thank you Lisa - I appreciate the kind words :D.

I generally agreed with the original article, but it got splitting a few silly hairs with his advising the b/g what they shouldn't be spending their money on. He used Limo's and chair covers as an example.

We are in the midst of planning our daughter's July wedding. She is carefully watching her pennies and being quite reasonable in her expenditures. There will be about 12 in the wedding party, and while they are not getting a stretch limo, they are getting one of those nicely appointed limo short (airport) buses. This is a matter of practicality for moving a group of people between several venues for pictures, ceremony and meals.

Chair covers - funny about this one. Chair covers typically can run as little a $3 each x 150 chairs = $450. In the scheme of things where the average cost of a wedding in Ohio is around $25,000 this is not a huge amount that will impact a photography package. And I'd have to say the same for the bus my daughter will hire at around $550. I appreciate what the author was trying to say, but we need to pump up our own value, expertise and professionalism rather than attack and erode other areas of the wedding. That will only antagonize people.

I don't consider you an amateur either.

I think sometimes people generalize without thinking.

I did not make the meeting not wishing I had but glad I got to see the aftermath in PDF.

[airfrogusmc]

The thing for everyone to take note of is that this is not just a wedding photography issue. Like you I have a good contract with an advertising agency that I don't have to worry about this for me personally but I do worry about those that are trying to make it into photography in general. Whether it be portraits, sports groups, music, etc. alot of what he said will apply to those as well.

Oh yeah I agree..

But most of my health care clients wouldn't think of using someone without health care experience. I also do some surgical stuff and they just don't let everbody in there. Got a big open heart case I'm shooting on Thurs...

Its tough out there but if you've got a good client base and your well established and have something that no one else can give (your vision and style) I don't hink you have allot to worry about.

[airfrogusmc]

I'm not sure many will agree with his interpretation of what constitutes a professional versus an amateur. I'm not sure how the industry can come up with a clear definition or whether they really should. I know if matters alot to some weekend warriors to be called a "professional". When someone asks me what I do for a living I tell them that I am a photographer. I would never say "professional photographer". That just sounds too hokey to me. Just like professional plumber, professional pilot, professional toilet cleaner, you get the message. I find too many people are hung up on that "professional" tag and in my experience it is the people that are doing this job part time that have the need for that.



Thought you might find what Ansel Adams had to say in the 1940s which relates a little.

"People are being trained in thoroughly superficial ways for what should be serious and profound professions. Our civilization protects our health, our safety, and our pocketbooks, by controlled professional standards and legal supervision. But nothing much is done for our spirit, which is of much greater importance. We are defenseless against gross impositions on our emotions, our esthetic sense. Hence, I believe in the absolute necessity of a strong and severe licensing control of professional photography, and of a firm guild organization among the creative artists and professionals. Medicine, the law, architecture, engineering, and other professions, are strengthened by such procedures of control, and I see no reason why photography should not be among them. Assuming that it requires five to eight years of serious training to be proficient in the major professions, why should photographers be turned loose on the world with only superficial knowledge of their craft, and little or no experience in application?"

Ansel Adams, June 1943

I'm not saying I'm agreeing just that these were issues even in 1943.

[trailrider]

Two phrases that will go a long way for both the bride and the photographer

1. 'buyer beware'
2. Those that can differentiate themselves will not stay competitive.

And I am definitely an amateur.

[Chandler.]

Thanks for posting this. I'm just a senior in high school, but I have a small business shooting family and kids portraits and engagement photography. I used to give away the CD, but I am definitely moving away from that quickly.

[amfoto1]

A professional has to find a way to shoot what his paying client wants, when they want it, and hopefully make it look good.

An amateur gets to shoot whatever he wants, whenever he wants.

[sapearl]

Interesting viewpoint - I actually do both.

But I confess that photography is not my full time main paycheck as I fall into that weekend warrior category. I do pay income tax on it though and the left over profit allows me to pursue my fine art photography interests. The latter would fall into the "whatever I want, whenever I want" category.

A professional has to find a way to shoot what his paying client wants, when they want it, and hopefully make it look good.

An amateur gets to shoot whatever he wants, whenever he wants.