BreezeBrowser and Noise Reduction

[pigasus]

I've just run a few photos through BB v2.2 using the new Smart Noise Reduction (SNR) options. And I thought I'd give you my initial impressions. First, let me lay out my workflow. I converted the images to linear 16 bit TIFF's and then adjusted them in Photoshop using (my slightly adjusted version of) Pekka's LS342, 400-800 HQ action.

SNR seems to do exactly what it says it's meant to do. Noise reduction is good and the loss of detail is kept to a minimum. Only with certain types of photos, for example bird photos with lots of feather detail, is the loss of detail more significant.

How does SNR compare with Yarc's ARF1? Well, they are different animals. ARF is an Artifact Reduction Filter. SNR does not specifically remove artifacts. So if artifacts are your problem ARF wins here. ARF also seems to reduce noise somewhat, but not as much as the SNR high or SNR normal settings. Maybe about the same (or slightly less) than the SNR low setting. So if you've got a noisy image SNR wins. ARF degrades detail in bird feathers to about the same degree as SNR does.

With regard to conversion speed, adding SNR to a BB conversion seems to double the time it takes to convert (on my PC). ARF was much faster.

Overall, the SNR images seem slghtly sharper than the ARF1 images. If I had used ARF2 (which includes a sharpening component) that probably would not have been the case. But just because the images are sharper it doesn't mean they are better. Personally, I prefer the ARF1 images as I found them less digital and more photographic.

So for now I'll continue to use Yarc with ARF1 for most of my linear conversion and BreezeBrowser for everything else I do with handling my images.

Please remember, the above are my SUBJECTIVE impressions. We'll just have to wait until Roger does his definitive comparison (:D) to get something more scientific.

One last observation about the new BB. It includes a set of camera specific profiles which can be assigned to the images at time of conversion. I tried out a linear conversion using the supplied D30 linear profile. Forget it! LinearSharpen rules! OK!

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Weeelll... This has got even more complicated... Like Sally, I tried various images to see the effect of SmNR and it seemed to be positive.

I read the additional info on the BB web site and followed the link to the SmNR home page to discover that it is a separate PS plug-in. The stand-alone version offering far more controls than the BB built-in

So "if ARF and SmNR are not the same thing", I reasoned, "who says you can't use both?" So I coughed up the 20 bucks. And, oh my, don't things start to get complicated. :eyes: The SmNR basic interface has two sldiers with 1-10 settings; the advanced interface has 6 sliders with an assortment of settings (1-5, 0-100 x 2, 0-255, 1-15 x 2). ??? There's a mask, which can be adjusted using the black-point slider - just a host of permutations.

So, any "definitive conclusions" will definitely take a while. :) In the mean time, here are some subjective opinions.

The SmNR does add time to the BB conversion as does ARF to YP. I haven't done any measurements, but I'm happy to take Sally's word that ARF is faster.

The plug-in, however, is like pouring treacle - about 40 seconds for an image. Don't know whether this is affected by chosen settings.

Most of my pictures I take at ISO 100/200, so overall noise isn't usually a huge problem, but I did find SmNR helped was in the background. SmNR does a nice job of getting rid of that "pepper and salt" effect (which is made worse by sharpening) where adjacent pixels are a markedly different shade of the same colour. SmNR makes the gradations of colour much smoother with the "smearing" that Gaussian blur produces.

Because SmNR is a standard PS plug-in you can apply it to a selection, which makes it more flexible.

I did run SmNR on one noisy image that I took in very low, artificial light and it did a nice job of cleaning up the noise. This is the before (full-size crop):

http://www.pixelpixel.org/images/linked/cdp/presmnr.jpg

and the after:

http://www.pixelpixel.org/images/linked/cdp/postsmnr.jpg

I had already reprocessed this image with YP and ARF and got a better result than BB (before SmNR).

Before I ramble on any further: SmNR and ARF don't appear to be mutually exclusive. Is it worth using SmNR every time? I don't think so at the moment. Is it worth using at all? Definitely, but I couldn't offer a prescription yet.

Regards,

[slejhamer]

A question for Sally or Roger: Do SmNR and ARF function only in the conversion process, or can they be used post-conversion as well?

I see a lot of what Roger calls the "pepper and salt" effect in my G1 RAW pics converted to TIFF, so I think SmNR may work well for me. However, I'd like a powerful post-conversion noise filter "just in case."

Thank you both for your posts.

[pigasus]

slejhamer wrote:
A question for Sally or Roger: Do SmNR and ARF function only in the conversion process, or can they be used post-conversion as well?
Hi Mitch,

ARF is only available as part of the Yarc Plus conversion from Raw. SmNR as supplied with BreezeBrowser is likewise only available as part of the BB conversion from Raw. BUT you can purchase SmNR directly from it's creators in the form of a Photoshop, Photoshop Elements or Paint Shop Pro plug in which would be used post conversion. Here's the web site for SmNR: http://knm.webhop.org/SmarterNR

I think I'm going to download the trial version to have a play (after I shoot some high ISO images to experiment with).

[slejhamer]

Thanks Sally! I will check out the plug-in version.

pigasus wrote:
you can purchase SmNR directly from it's creators in the form of a Photoshop, Photoshop Elements or Paint Shop Pro plug in which would be used post conversion.

[teekay]

Just downloaded the trial plugin and also updated BB to 2.2 to try SNR out in various ways - during RAW conversion and in post-processing with PSP.

I like it!

My G1 sometimes produces quite noisy skies and this SNR really improves them, so far with imperceptible loss of detail elsewhere in the image, even with SNR set at its highest ("high" in BB, 10 in the plugin).

It's *really* slow, but with some photos the salvage will be worth the wait.

[kdobson]

The speed of the plug-in is affected by the slider settings. A setting of 10 (in Basic mode) for both luma and color is slow. A setting of 5 for both is much faster.

You can get a similar effect by setting the sliders to 5 in basic mode, changing to advanced mode, then setting the Overall Blending to 90 or 100, instead of 75. This will give you a stronger effect, but will be faster.

You can then save these settings as a preset file to quickly restore them for other images.

- Kevin
http://knm.webhop.org/SmarterNR

[mwrr]

I looked on the BB site and couldn't find the "additional info" part you mentioned with the link to the SmNR site. I found that link (http://knm.webhop.org/SmarterNR) in another message here but am curious about the association between BB and the stand-alone SmNR.

[quote]Roger_Cavanagh wrote:
I read the additional info on the BB web site and followed the link to the SmNR home page to discover that it is a separate PS plug-in. The stand-alone version offering far more controls than the BB built-in

[l_nes]

Hi Sally

You say: "I converted the images to linear 16 bit TIFF's and then adjusted them in Photoshop using (my slightly adjusted version of) Pekka's LS342". Are you using it on the 100/200 iso pictures as well ??

What is the "slightly adjusted versjon" ?? :-)

Lars

[Roger_Cavanagh]

mwrr wrote:
I looked on the BB site and couldn't find the "additional info" part you mentioned with the link to the SmNR site. I found that link (http://knm.webhop.org/SmarterNR) in another message here but am curious about the association between BB and the stand-alone SmNR.

Roger_Cavanagh wrote:
I read the additional info on the BB web site and followed the link to the SmNR home page to discover that it is a separate PS plug-in. The stand-alone version offering far more controls than the BB built-in


Mick,

The reference to Smarter NR is in the BB help file. Sorry for the misleading information. It explains that Chris Breeze did a deal with Kevin Dobson, the developer of SmNR to include a simplified (i.e., fewer options) version in BB.

Regards,

[mwrr]

Thanks! I found it in the BB Help just like you said.

[Roger_Cavanagh wrote:
I read the additional info on the BB web site and followed the link to the SmNR home page to discover that it is a separate PS plug-in. The stand-alone version offering far more controls than the BB built-in
[/quote]

Mick,

The reference to Smarter NR is in the BB help file. Sorry for the misleading information. It explains that Chris Breeze did a deal with Kevin Dobson, the developer of SmNR to include a simplified (i.e., fewer options) version in BB.