Beginner Wedding Photog...

[LBrower]

I recently shot my second wedding. The weddings that I have been shooting are for friends/family. I know that I am far from a professional; however, it is hard work so I do charge for my time and effort. This particular wedding, I charged $40 per hour. I am curious to find out people's opinions on if I am charging "not enough" or "too much" or maybe I have a fair price? Included in this price, the couple gets a copy of all edited pictures on a CD. Please be honest...I know you will!! I am scheduled for another wedding in June which I have quoted $40 per hour and a July wedding for $50 per hour.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/Dorsch_wedding_edited10.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/Dorsch_wedding_edited3.jpg


http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/Dorsch_wedding_edited2.jpg

[REXTi]

i think your border is to thick but the shots are nice

[LBrower]

thanks and I agree about the borders. Next time I will make them thinner.

[takeyourpic]

Ok. I'll bite.
So you are charging $40.00 per hour. Let me count up the hours and see if this is what you "actually charged" the couple.
1 hr consultation
1 hr getting gear ready-charging batteries
1 hr travel (assuming both ways)
8 hrs at the wedding
6 hours going through the shots and post processing (this is probably a kind estimate, but I am guessing that from your experience that your PP is limited)
1 hr to upload a gallery for purchasing their prints...
(This is all rough estimate, so this might be above or below what you actually do)
So that is a total of 18 hours at $50 an hour. So if you charged them $900 for your time then for your second wedding then you have to look at what were your costs...Equipment...I hope you have insurance...Did you give them any prints/albums/books/the disc of images to print them on their own? So now take out those factors and see what you have left.

[jillybean]

Valle vista- I hate shooting wedding there
$40.00 hour seems too cheap but only you can determine that.

[John Mottershaw]

I wouldn't recommend an hourly rate.

The time spent at a wedding is only a small part of the job and if you quote for a fixed time you might under or overestimate what's required: I just leave when the job's done, not when time's up.

[LBrower]

Yes, Valle Vista. And I have another one there in June.

To clarify, I only charged for the hours I was shooting.....which was 5 hours. I was paid $200 for the whole gig (including prep time, travel time, shooting time, editing time). My dilemma is that I don't want to overcharge for my level of talent. I hope to keep improving with each wedding/job and eventually feel more comfortable about charging more.

[C.Steele]

My personal opinion - Either do it for free (if you are learning) or charge a decent price (if you feel you are competent). By "decent price" I don't mean you need to charge what other pros charge either. Obviously if you are just starting your business there might be a need to charge under what the average pro in your area charges to get some gigs.

$200 is nothing and sends a bad message about the business of photography. If you can do it for $200, why does "Joe pro" charge $3k? That's a huge gap and brings the value of photography down in your area. The pros in your area will have to keep lowering their prices to compete with the rookies that are charging next to nothing. If you want to do this long term as a business, I don't think that is a situation you want to create.

BTW, I'm not a pro, I'm a rookie like yourself that shot my first wedding for $200 too. After I did it I got this same sort of talk from the pro I second shoot for and it made total sense. I personally chose not to do any more weddings until I and my business were ready to charge a decent price.

Just think about it.

As far as your shots go - they look pretty snap-shotty. Try looking for interesting angles and lighting (#1 looks like it came from a cheap P&S). One of the biggest mistakes rookies make is shooting everything from the standing position (like you did). The majority of the time this is the most boring and stagnant looking position to shoot from. Also, look for moments with emotion or action. In #3 what is special there? It looks like he is pointing at the cake topper and she is standing listening to him explain the process of how it was made. I doubt that is a moment they are going to be emotionally attached to.

Anyway, not trying to be harsh with ya, but you asked for honesty. Sine I have gone through this EXACT same thing myself, I decided to share my thoughts.

Good luck to you!
Chris

[John Mottershaw]

By the way, they should definately cut the the cake together.

[M12576]

C.Steele has a lot of good points. I'm at this same dilema. I'm by no means a pro yet but friends of friends have seen my flickr account and like what they see. I've been asked to do some gigs but don't know what to charge. I'd hate to take a job and not produce what they are expecting. That said, I plan on doing a few shoots for friends at no charge until I feel confident enough to do a stranger's shoot at the rightful charge.

I actually like the first shot.

[jgogums]

I know for me my willingness to want to do a good job shooting a wedding is not dependent on whether I'm getting paid or not. But once your charge money you are representing your self as professional...even if you don't think so. With that "title" comes expectations from the couple (and everyone watching you work) and comparisons to other working pros in your area (and really comparisons to any pro on the web).

Brides are bombarded with advice on what to ask and look for in choosing their wedding vendors.....and they talk...a lot. While advertising helps in staking a presence and "legitimizing" your business, referrals are gold. By charging waaay below your areas market you may be unwittingly painting yourself into a corner by offering inexpensive wedding packages that you will become known for.

This is where brides on a very restricted budget will refer you. Now you are known as 'Leslie...the one that is really cheap'. It's good to gain experience this way but it becomes difficult to raise prices and move into a different target market once you've been established as a budget wedding photographer.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeting budget weddings. I'm just advising that you think about the message you are sending. If you have another 9-5 type job that "pays-the-bills" and you are doing this as a way to gain experience and make a little money then that is fine. But if the ultimate goal is to migrate to full time pro then be very aware of how you are marketing yourself now. You are always painting a picture of yourself to someone....

Honestly, most full time pros aren't that concerned with photographers charging much less then them. Why? Because they've already established themselves in a market that generally wouldn't consider hiring a photographer that charges $200 for a wedding.

I know that may sound harsh but look at your own bias on how you spend your money. Once you get it in your head that the quality you want in your _________ (fill in the blank) should cost around $XXXX then anything way below or way above general gets taken out of consideration quickly. This is just one reason why most full time pros aren't overly concerned with inexpensive upstarts.

Please don't get me wrong. Everyone has to start somewhere. I think we are all aware of this. But I'm just advising that you be aware of what market you are attracting now and what impact that may have on down the road a bit if you decide to really pursue this as a career.

[Tony Spires]

I cannot even fathom charging 200 bucks for a wedding. I charged 650 for my first wedding and the least I have charged is 500 for 4 hours of coverage and a DVD. Budget clients call me or email me and I tell them what my rates are and then I tell them I have back up equipment too. If they say I am too high at 500-750 bucks, then I wish them good luck and tell them to make sure the photographer they book that is cheaper than me has back up equipment so they don't miss important memories. My booking ratio is high and most of them call me back and say they could not find someone cheaper with back up equipment.

[kja]

Can we see more images, please?

The 2nd and 3rd look way soft to me.

I'm not getting into the price thing except to say that I hope you have a clear contract and that you should either charge what it is worth to you or not charge at all if you aren't confident in what you are delivering. Charging by the hour this way doesn't value your talent more than being able to click the trigger - and Uncle Larry can do that. And if you aren't sure you can bring home the images, you shouldn't be charging ANYTHING imho.

[LBrower]

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. As requested, here are a few more images...and these are from my first wedding which I also charged $40 per hour. And I agree about the "softness" of my pictures. I am working on sharpening my images.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/IMG_8352.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/IMG_8298bw2.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/IMG_8344.jpg

[LBrower]

and here are a few from a wedding where I was the second photographer at no charge..
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/Tyler_Boys.jpg


http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/program_flowers2.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/LeslieBrower/Amber_girls2.jpg

[John Mottershaw]

That sharpness issue - you really do have to sort that out before you charge anything, it's fundamental.

Rule one (of many): focus on the eyes. The most basic way to do this is to use the central sensor in the viewfinder and point it at the eyes, half press the shutter and then recompose.

You may find that it's not a focus issue, in which case your shutter speed is not fast enough and there is some camera movement.

[takeyourpic]

Yes, Valle Vista. And I have another one there in June.

To clarify, I only charged for the hours I was shooting.....which was 5 hours. I was paid $200 for the whole gig (including prep time, travel time, shooting time, editing time). My dilemma is that I don't want to overcharge for my level of talent. I hope to keep improving with each wedding/job and eventually feel more comfortable about charging more.


Perhaps you should look at being a second shooter with someone until you are more comfortable. This would allow you to start your asking price at a higher rate when you can produce more consistent results. If people start to talk about you being the $200.00 wedding photographer it might be difficult later on when you want to actually charge them a fee that would put you on the plus side.

[Skrim17]

I think the images are nice, I too will not get into the pricing thing. I would recommend you take some of the money you charge and get some better glass as some of the images appear soft and I would assume these are from the kit lens or the sigma. a Tamron 17-50 or 26-75 would go a long way to sharpen things up and help you in low light. You have some nice poses, watch the backgrounds on the group shots like the second one you posted.

Don't sell yourself short.

[LBrower]

I think the images are nice, I too will not get into the pricing thing. I would recommend you take some of the money you charge and get some better glass as some of the images appear soft and I would assume these are from the kit lens or the sigma. a Tamron 17-50 or 26-75 would go a long way to sharpen things up and help you in low light. You have some nice poses, watch the backgrounds on the group shots like the second one you posted.

Don't sell yourself short.


Thanks...I am thinking of buying the Tamron lens. You are correct in that most were taken from the kit lens. Any other suggestions on a replacement kit lens??

[tutumon]

Leslie,
Most of the comments are already spot on. I understand the reason you're charging what you are is where you feel you are in your developmental process and your quality of work. But both these things will improve as you gain more experience. What will be hard to change will be the first impressions clients have about you. If you're labelled as "the $50 buck and hour photographer", it'll be very hard for you to market yourself to higher end clients later on. So here are some avenues of thought
1. Check what other photographers are charging in your area and set your price accordingly BUT make sure that your work is equal if not better than your competition. This comes only with experience, so second shoot some more.
2. Like some people have mentioned, don't charge anything until your images can market themselves. I'm not saying you have to be a world class photographer, but your quality of work should be very acceptable.

Also, do you have backup equipment? LIke someone mentioned earlier, you cannot afford to shoot a wedding - paid or free - without backup equipment. So it might be wise to stock up before you do any other weddings.

All the best to you.

[Skrim17]

Canon makes a FABULOUS 17-55 2.8 IS, the Tamron is a 17-50 2.8.

The canon will run you 1k new, the Tamron about 300 or so.

[SuzyView]

I still don't think after many weddings that I am as good as some of the great wedding photographers here in NOVA. But my gear helps tremendously and I have gained many skills. I shoot mainly for friends who don't seem to mind my crazy style of working, but it's more than just hourly. It's the work itself. The shots you have put up are average to me, not very sharp, could use more PP. Learn to work on angles that flatter or poses that make the most of everyone in the party. The first shot the lighting is harsh on the plate, maybe you were too close. I do that too, and I have to stand on a chair and really expose for light better.

Here is another thread, you may like to see. This poster has some shots that show crisp images:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=480845

The best advice is to learn the art of lighting and how to get the best of the gear you have. I started out with a 10D and 28-135 and was perfectly happy until I found this forum. Then I learned so much. Keep working at it and look at galleries and lighting suggestions. It will make a world of difference. Good luck!

[Raphael V]

$200 a wedding is cheaper than what most budget photographers charge in India, and you are in US.... beats me.
Once you get this 'damn cheap photographer' label, you'll only get these 'damn cheap paying clients'. It will become difficult to get out later.

[John Mottershaw]

Thanks...I am thinking of buying the Tamron lens. You are correct in that most were taken from the kit lens. Any other suggestions on a replacement kit lens??

Buying a new lens will not solve the sharpness issue. If your pictures look so obviously soft at small internet sizes, I promise you that unless you are using the end of a bottle, the problem is not with the lens. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed if you think that spending money on gear will solve the issue.

[bellapop]

Buying a new lens will not solve the sharpness issue. If your pictures look so obviously soft at small internet sizes, I promise you that unless you are using the end of a bottle, the problem is not with the lens. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed if you think that spending money on gear will solve the issue.

I agree. I have two very nice lenses - 70-200 f/2.8 L and 24-70 f/2.8 L and I am just now starting to get better focus. It takes lots of practice, getting used to the sensors, the right shutter speeds for hand held, steady hands, etc. Also sometimes lens may need to be calibrated. Practice Practice Practice. That's what I'm doing : )

[Atheist]

Thanks...I am thinking of buying the Tamron lens. You are correct in that most were taken from the kit lens. Any other suggestions on a replacement kit lens??
The tamron is the lens for you since its f2.8. I have the sigma 17-70 and i find myself looking for light often

[silvex]

My personal opinion - Either do it for free (if you are learning) or charge a decent price (if you feel you are competent). By "decent price" I don't mean you need to charge what other pros charge either. Obviously if you are just starting your business there might be a need to charge under what the average pro in your area charges to get some gigs.

$200 is nothing and sends a bad message about the business of photography. If you can do it for $200, why does "Joe pro" charge $3k? That's a huge gap and brings the value of photography down in your area. The pros in your area will have to keep lowering their prices to compete with the rookies that are charging next to nothing. If you want to do this long term as a business, I don't think that is a situation you want to create.

BTW, I'm not a pro, I'm a rookie like yourself that shot my first wedding for $200 too. After I did it I got this same sort of talk from the pro I second shoot for and it made total sense. I personally chose not to do any more weddings until I and my business were ready to charge a decent price.

Just think about it.

As far as your shots go - they look pretty snap-shotty. Try looking for interesting angles and lighting (#1 looks like it came from a cheap P&S). One of the biggest mistakes rookies make is shooting everything from the standing position (like you did). The majority of the time this is the most boring and stagnant looking position to shoot from. Also, look for moments with emotion or action. In #3 what is special there? It looks like he is pointing at the cake topper and she is standing listening to him explain the process of how it was made. I doubt that is a moment they are going to be emotionally attached to.

Anyway, not trying to be harsh with ya, but you asked for honesty. Sine I have gone through this EXACT same thing myself, I decided to share my thoughts.

Good luck to you!
Chris

I completely agree with you . I have been aproached by many for portrait work and I have turn them down, since I did not want to charge "chicken feed". I want to get paid and get paid well, since it is a LOT of work. All of the work I have done have been free and only for my GF and her daughter's events, but I worked like if it was a 10K paid gig -- 18-24 total hours. This is in my opinon how you learn.

[silvex]

That sharpness issue - you really do have to sort that out before you charge anything, it's fundamental.

Rule one (of many): focus on the eyes. The most basic way to do this is to use the central sensor in the viewfinder and point it at the eyes, half press the shutter and then recompose.

.

Never do that, since it will cause blurry shots. instead move the AF points to the eyes. This focus and recompose works for exposure.

[lil_miss]

The images to me seem a little cold.... the WB perhaps?? The whites are pretty blown :/

I would suggest an upgrade to the IS version of the 18-55 perhaps in the interim... in saying that though I've seen some people produce excellent shots from the non IS so you cant blame entirely the gear....

[John Mottershaw]

Never do that, since it will cause blurry shots. instead move the AF points to the eyes. This focus and recompose works for exposure.

Nonsense. I said that this is the most basic way. And unless you are very close there is no reason why it will cause "blurry" shots. To suggest that there will always be an AF point available exactly over the eyes is wrong. You have to move the AF point on to the eyes, focus and then recompose.

[tdodd]

This poster has some shots that show crisp images:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=480845


I rather like the work of this guy - beautiful crisp images, with great control of DOF, and very natural looking rather than over-processed....

http://meninenuotrauka.lt/

He posts here - http://photography-on-the.net/forum/member.php?u=124002

[slowdad]

I still don't think after many weddings that I am as good as some of the great wedding photographers here in NOVA. But my gear helps tremendously and I have gained many skills. I shoot mainly for friends who don't seem to mind my crazy style of working, but it's more than just hourly. It's the work itself. The shots you have put up are average to me, not very sharp, could use more PP. Learn to work on angles that flatter or poses that make the most of everyone in the party. The first shot the lighting is harsh on the plate, maybe you were too close. I do that too, and I have to stand on a chair and really expose for light better.

Here is another thread, you may like to see. This poster has some shots that show crisp images:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=480845

The best advice is to learn the art of lighting and how to get the best of the gear you have. I started out with a 10D and 28-135 and was perfectly happy until I found this forum. Then I learned so much. Keep working at it and look at galleries and lighting suggestions. It will make a world of difference. Good luck!


agree 100%

for leslie--
i would invest in a tamron 17-50 or a 28-75f/2.8 lens. your sharpness issue will be solved and with more practice you will get a feel at to what you can and cant do and you will be able to move forward.

as for the debate and snippy remarks that are going to happen about what to charge. FRANKLY ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

everyone has to start someplace. if your at the bottom and just starting out,------------------ DONT REPRESENT YOURSELF AS A SEASONED PRO-------------------be honest with the client. tell them straight up,your new at wedding photography.tell them the truth at all times.

1-when you are going to start out, then you should also invest in a few pieces of decent glass and a decent flash.
2-you should take the time to get the basic knowledge about photography
3-be honest with yourself and your skill level and your clients

AS FOR PRICE

again it no ones business except you and the brides. we have all seen the ads for 500.00 wedding photographers on craigs list and local papers. looks at thier work. some of it is really bad(point and shoot---not kidding) and some of them should charge more for thier work IMHO.

ALOT OF PEOPLE CANT AFFORD A GOOD SEASONED PRO. so there is nothing wrong with working that market and developing your skills so that as a photographer you can move up the ladder and skill level and pricing for your clients. AGAIN, honesty with the client is of importance. so im not buying that you should be charging a certain price or else your taking the photography business down the toilet.

THINK ABOUT THIS
im wonfering how many of you seasoned guys that think a set low price should be charged,,,lets say 1000.00--are doing free pro bono work for people that cant afford to pay anything more that 900.00. or better yet,,cant afford anything more that the 300.00 they are going to pay thier dear friend leslie. HOW MANY OF YOU THAT ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT A SET MINIMUM PRICE DO FREE PRO BONO WORK TO HELP PROMOTE THE PROFESSIONAL IMAGE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHY BUSINESS-------------PROBABLY NOT MANY AT ALL

so whats the big deal for someone to start out and develop their skills at this price point ???? perhaps it the eventual competition for business at your market and skill level that really has you concerned. just a thought!!