Grad & non-grad ND FILTERS - Holders & Size?

[b.d.bop]

Filters - rectangular ones, such as Lee and Singh-Ray, etc....which size are most of you using?

Is the Cokin P size (and Cokin holder system) the way to go for general purposes or are any of you more strongly recommending larger filters like 4"x6" or whatever.

I'm looking at the Singh-Ray Galen Rowell graduated ND's and scratching my head regarding the size and best holder system.
Man, they are expensive, aren't they?

Also - which solid ND filters do you most of you have and take along (i.e., how many (-) stops)?

Thanks.

[Anke]

I use Hitech with the Cokin P adapter, they are nice grads and not too expensive.
I carry 0.3, 0.6 and 0.9 strengths.

[argyle]

I think your top three choices for GND filters would be Hitech, Lee, and Singh Ray. The Hitech filters are 4x5, and both the Lee and Singh Ray are 4x6. All three are made from resin...don't know about the SRs, but the Hitech and Lee are both made from the same grade/type resin material. I would suspect that the SRs are somewhat similar. Myself, I went with Hitech filters...I found that 4x5 was plenty long enough for me to use with my widest lenses and afforded me sufficient room to reposition the demarcation line. I didn't think that the extra inch of the Lee/SRs would have made that much more of a difference. The Hitech filters were about $30 less than the comparable Lee filter, and a whole lot less than the SRs, so unless you want the additional inch of length, I don't think the extra money would gain anything. With any of these filters, you'd need the larger holder such as a Cokin Z-Pro or Lee. The Cokin P filters aren't recommended for focal lengths less than 28mm...with your current gear list, you'd lose out with any wide angles. And, unless I'm wrong, the Cokin P wide angle holder is only single slotted, so you couldn't stack filters.

If you go for any of these filters, I'd recommend the Lee filter holder over the Cokin Z-Pro. The Lee is a much better design, and really isn't much more expensive than the Cokin (<$20). The Lee uses a spring-loaded brass clip to attach the holder to the adapter ring, while the Cokin uses three tiny plastic pins that are pushed back and forth to attach/remove the holder, which become subject to wear and tear. The pins on the Cokin also prevent you from using the first filter slot that's closest to the lens since they protrude into the space that would be occupied by the filter. You could reverse the pins, but considering their size, its a real PITA to do that out in the field in poor light...very easy to drop and lose. So why bother due to the minor cost differential? FWIW, I started with the Z-Pro but switched to the Lee holder soon after these shortcomings became obvious.

As far as solid NDs go, I use round B+W filters in -2, -3, and -6 strengths, and close to adding a B+W -10 ND. A CPL threaded to an ND will add another 2-stops of light reduction as well. I'm considering (in the future) a SR variable ND which would let me reduce the number of round filters that I have. I'm holding off because SR is modifying their variable ND to allow use of a CPL (the current model will not work with a CPL)...at least this is what has been mentioned. True or not, I can't say...but at $350 for a variable filter, I might as well wait a bit to see if this is true or not.

Here's a shot of the Lee holder, two Hitech GNDs, and the Lee CPL mounted on a 5D/17-40L for reference. The setup as you see it will vignette pretty good at 17mm due to the CPL, but begins to clear at 19mm and is completely gone by 20mm.

http://northlake.smugmug.com/photos/247451733_wkyCd-L.jpg

[b.d.bop]

Thanks, argyle. Very informative.

I guess the thrust of my question had to do wth the filter sizes and holder sizes.

Cokin P vs. Cokin Z-Pro (4x6) or Lee, etc.

What's the story on the sizes? Pros, cons, etc.

[argyle]

As I mentioned, Cokin P are not recommended for focal lengths less than 28mm, so much of your 16-35L's range would probably cause vignetting with the smaller filter. Of the 4x5 and 4x6, it becomes a toss-up. The extra length of these filters (as opposed to the P filters) provide more "wiggle room" if you need to adjust the filter's demarcation line to suit your composition. Trying to accomplish this with a P filter may bring the edge of the filter into the frame. That's basically it in a nutshell as far as the filters go. I already mentioned the major differences between the holders in my previous post. Just one more thing...with the P holder, you'd need to carry two holders with you...the normal holder, and then the wide angle holder for FL's less than 28mm (but you'd be limited to a single slot).

Definitely, the 4x5 or 4x6 for composition flexibility and FL compatibility, and the Lee holder. JMHO.

[b.d.bop]

As I mentioned, Cokin P are not recommended for focal lengths less than 28mm, so much of your 16-35L's range would probably cause vignetting with the smaller filter. Of the 4x5 and 4x6, it becomes a toss-up. The extra length of these filters (as opposed to the P filters) provide more "wiggle room" if you need to adjust the filter's demarcation line to suit your composition. Trying to accomplish this with a P filter may bring the edge of the filter into the frame. That's basically it in a nutshell as far as the filters go. I already mentioned the major differences between the holders in my previous post. Just one more thing...with the P holder, you'd need to carry two holders with you...the normal holder, and then the wide angle holder for FL's less than 28mm (but you'd be limited to a single slot).

Definitely, the 4x5 or 4x6 for composition flexibility and FL compatibility, and the Lee holder. JMHO.

argyle, you're encyclopedic, man. This is great.

Let me ask you this: do you happen to know whether the Cokin Z-Pro adapter rings are interchangeable with the Lee filter adapter rings?

[argyle]

argyle, you're encyclopedic, man. This is great.

Let me ask you this: do you happen to know whether the Cokin Z-Pro adapter rings are interchangeable with the Lee filter adapter rings?

That I can't answer. But considering the fact that not all manufacturers use the same tolerances in the design/manufacture process, that would be reason enough for me to stay with the hardware made by each specific manufacturer. There could be some slop in the setup when combining parts from Manufacturer "A" and Manufacturer "B"...

As far as the Lee goes, I'd try the wide angle adapter ring only first (I have both the "normal" and wide angle rings and am re-thinking the need for the normal ring). The Lee WA ring allows the holder to sit back closer to the lens front (by about 4mm or so) to prevent vignetting. It would seem that this should be usable with the longer focal lengths as well and negate the need for the normal ring. Maybe I'll give this a try this weekend to confirm...

[b.d.bop]

That I can't answer. But considering the fact that not all manufacturers use the same tolerances in the design/manufacture process, that would be reason enough for me to stay with the hardware made by each specific manufacturer. There could be some slop in the setup when combining parts from Manufacturer "A" and Manufacturer "B"...

As far as the Lee goes, I'd try the wide angle adapter ring only first (I have both the "normal" and wide angle rings and am re-thinking the need for the normal ring). The Lee WA ring allows the holder to sit back closer to the lens front (by about 4mm or so) to prevent vignetting. It would seem that this should be usable with the longer focal lengths as well and negate the need for the normal ring. Maybe I'll give this a try this weekend to confirm...

Man, you've clued me in to plenty on this topic, argyle - thanks a million. :)

This whole forum is superlative.

[JDubya]

I use Cokin P-size Galen Rowell filters--the ND-3G-HS and the ND-2G-SS. They're very nice.

[b.d.bop]

I use Cokin P-size Galen Rowell filters--the ND-3G-HS and the ND-2G-SS. They're very nice.Have you used them on a wide angle, and if so, how wide? Also, FF or crop sensor? Thanks.

[argyle]

Have you used them on a wide angle, and if so, how wide? Also, FF or crop sensor? Thanks.

I'm betting a crop...and with the P, you'd need to carry two holders with you (and still be limited to a single slot with the wide angle holder). FF like the 5D is a different animal. With the larger Lee holder, I can have all three slots in place and not get any vignetting with the 5D/17-40L at 17mm, plus have the ability to stack filters (and I only have to carry the one holder). Can't do that with the P wide angle holder.

[b.d.bop]

I'm betting a crop...and with the P, you'd need to carry two holders with you (and still be limited to a single slot with the wide angle holder). FF like the 5D is a different animal. With the larger Lee holder, I can have all three slots in place and not get any vignetting with the 5D/17-40L at 17mm, plus have the ability to stack filters (and I only have to carry the one holder). Can't do that with the P wide angle holder.

argyle, where is this Lee gear available?
I see only one style of Lee slide-in resin filter holder on Calumet and B&H (the type you went to after the Cokin Z-Pro fell short of your expectations):

http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/LE5000/

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/87108-REG/LEE_Filters_FK__Foundation_Kit_Standard.html

I'm assuming that's the one you first alluded to and not the wide angle (single filter) holder style, is that correct?

Also, since I'd need ring adapters for lenses in three sizes: 72 (a couple of lenses), 77 (a few lenses including the 24-70L wide angle) and 82mm (the 16-35L wide angle) - do I order the wide angle type adapter rings for everything or the standard adapter rings, assuming I'm going to go with that wide angle holder?

I'm confused... :confused:

Oh, yeah - does the Lee rig hold SR filters?

------> later EDIT:
OK, I think I've got it about figured out now. It's the wide angle ring, not the holder that matters re: vignetting. The holder's the same. I found a source, too, at www.2filter.com

Throw in anything you have to add, argyle & others - I'm all ears.

[EORI]

P mounted on a wide angle filter holder will not vignette on my 5D and 17-40L combination.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5256381&postcount=3

[argyle]

P mounted on a wide angle filter holder will not vignette on my 5D and 17-40L combination.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5256381&postcount=3

But you're limited to a single slot...you can't use more than one filter, so stacking is not an option, nor is the use of a mounted polarizer in combination with the GND. I'm not ragging on the P holder...just bringing up some things that need to be considered with ND grads.

OP: I got my Hitech filters and Lee holder at 2filter.com...just like you found. Hitechs are 4x5, SR's are 4x6...you should be able to use either, as well as the Lee filters, in the Lee holder. Its your call, but rather than buy three adapter rings, pick up a single ring for the lens or lenses that you'll use primarily for landscape shots...then build from there. Luckily for me, 99% of my lenses are 77mm so my choice was simple.

The P size GNDs are long enough, but the main drawback is the wide angle holder that only has the single slot. Could be a limiting factor if you need to stack filters. Cokin has a coupling (I think) that will allow the use of two holders, but then you're probably going to get into some serious vignetting issues. Another way around this is to get a 4 or 5 stop SR GND...however, those are pretty pricey at nearly $300 each. I still say go with the Lee holder and build from there. Matter of fact, you can stack two Hitechs in the Lee holder and their combined cost would be about the same price as a single SR filter.

What you need to get started:

Adapter ring (in the lens diameter of your choice)
Lee foundation kit (holder)
GND's (most folks start with a 2-stop soft and a 3-stop hard)

As far as the filters themselves go, SR has a reputation as being the best, but to be honest I cannot tell the difference between shots taken with the SR or those that were taken with Hitechs or Lees. All three are resin filters, so materially they're pretty much the same stuff. The Hitechs are about one-third the price of the SRs, and the Lees about half the price. For the cost of one SR grad, you can pick up several Hitechs and probably an adapter ring to get started. The choice is ultimately yours, in either case. Not much more I can add, sorry to say...

[EORI]

But you're limited to a single slot...you can't use more than one filter, so stacking is not an option, nor is the use of a mounted polarizer in combination with the GND. I'm not ragging on the P holder...just bringing up some things that need to be considered with ND grads.

Your point is well taken. I was simply pointing out to the OP that the P size filter can be used on a wide angle lens without causing it to vignette. I have also used the wide angle filter holder on top of a CPL, and it does not vignette.

I can see where if someone wanted to stack square filters, a step-up ring (77 => 82mm?) together with the larger 4x6 filter and holder may be desirable, but that's only relevant to those who like to stack square filters (I've stopped doing it since going digital). Also, just how deep of a filter holder (i.e., how many slots) can you mount on a wide angle lens and get away with it? My standard P wide filter holder with 3 slots vignettes noticeably on the 17-40L. Does a 4x6 multiple filter holder avoid vignetting problems on a wide angle? Such information may be helpful to the OP.

[argyle]

Your point is well taken. I was simply pointing out to the OP that the P size filter can be used on a wide angle lens without causing it to vignette. I have also used the wide angle filter holder on top of a CPL, and it does not vignette.

I can see where if someone wanted to stack square filters, a step-up ring (77 => 82mm?) together with the larger 4x6 filter and holder may be desirable, but that's only relevant to those who like to stack square filters (I've stopped doing it since going digital). Also, just how deep of a filter holder (i.e., how many slots) can you mount on a wide angle lens and get away with it? My standard P wide filter holder with 3 slots vignettes noticeably on the 17-40L. Does a 4x6 multiple filter holder avoid vignetting problems on a wide angle? Such information may be helpful to the OP.

Several posts previous I mentioned that I can use the 5D/17-40L set to 17mm with the Lee holder and all three filter slots attached without any vignetting. Here's a test pic with just that combination (but you'll have to take my word for it about the holder :) ) :

http://northlake.smugmug.com/photos/275593452_GBMKK-L.jpg

[b.d.bop]

What's an OP? And while we're at it, what's CONUS and what's COI? :(

[argyle]

OP = Original Poster

CONUS = Continental US

COI = Cost of Insurance

[b.d.bop]

Several posts previous I mentioned that I can use the 5D/17-40L set to 17mm with the Lee holder and all three filter slots attached without any vignetting. Here's a test pic with just that combination (but you'll have to take my word for it about the holder :) ) :



Nice demo, argyle!

Did you ned to get
Extension Slides for Hitech Filters - Attach to Both Sides of Hitech Filter and Increase Thickness to 2mm (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/87163-REG/LEE_Filters_SLIDES_Extension_Slides_for_Hitech.htm l) for your Hitechs as they're 1.5mm thick as opposed to the Lee filters at 2mm?

[argyle]

Nice demo, argyle!

Did you ned to get
Extension Slides for Hitech Filters - Attach to Both Sides of Hitech Filter and Increase Thickness to 2mm (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/87163-REG/LEE_Filters_SLIDES_Extension_Slides_for_Hitech.htm l) for your Hitechs as they're 1.5mm thick as opposed to the Lee filters at 2mm?

No need...the Lee holder slots have plenty of spring action in the retaining clips...holds the Hitech filters just fine without any slipping. I just use the basic Lee holder with my Hitechs...

[bps]

Argyle,

Your continued input on filters is awesome. Your informative posts have helped me tremendously in figuring out what to buy.

Thanks mate!
Bryan

[LightRules]

Mike, I PM'd you on the following question. But I'll post my question here for anyone else who might know also:

Does anyone have the Cokin Z holder, using all 3 slots (not a CP filter though), with a 16mm FOV (40D/10-22) or 17mm FOV (5D/17-40), and get no vignetting?

I'm needing to get the answer to this, thanks all.

...I can use the 5D/17-40L set to 17mm with the Lee holder and all three filter slots attached without any vignetting. Here's a test pic with just that combination (but you'll have to take my word for it about the holder :) ) :

http://northlake.smugmug.com/photos/275593452_GBMKK-L.jpg

[condyk]

I went with almost identical to Argyle after lots of research and for use with 40D/10-20mm ... Lee holder, 77mm wide angle, and 1, 2, 3 stop ND Lee's and .3, .6, .9 NDG's from Hitech, I just need a hard edged NDG but am gonna play around to see which, if any, I actually need.

[LightRules]

Holding true to form, my fellow philosopher. You did not answer my question. :evil:

I went with almost identical to Argyle after lots of research and for use with 40D/10-20mm ... Lee holder, 77mm wide angle, and 1, 2, 3 stop ND Lee's and .3, .6, .9 NDG's from Hitech, I just need a hard edged NDG but am gonna play around to see which, if any, I actually need.

[condyk]

Holding true to form, my fellow philosopher. You did not answer my question. :evil:

Yeah, well I don't have the Z, nor either of those lenses, nor a 5D no more and as I try not to speak from anything other than personal experience I'll let the 'forum experts' respond to ya ;-)

[argyle]

Mike, I PM'd you on the following question. But I'll post my question here for anyone else who might know also:

Does anyone have the Cokin Z holder, using all 3 slots (not a CP filter though), with a 16mm FOV (40D/10-22) or 17mm FOV (5D/17-40), and get no vignetting?

I'm needing to get the answer to this, thanks all.

Jojo:

I can't give you a definitive answer...I didn't hold on to the test pics that I took with the Z-Pro holder mounted on the 30D/10-22 combo. I'd be willing to bet though that you won't get any as long as you're using the wide angle adapter ring. I didn't exchange mine because of vignetting problems, I just thought that the Lee was a bit better design. If its a really good deal, and you can live with the Z-Pro's issues, it wouldn't hurt to give it a shot. Hope this helps.

[garbidz]

And just as I completed the order for the Cokin Z-pro a week ago at Adorama I get to read all this.
Well. I'll post my experiences good or bad once I get my stuff and some free time.

[LightRules]

And just as I completed the order for the Cokin Z-pro a week ago at Adorama I get to read all this.
Well. I'll post my experiences good or bad once I get my stuff and some free time.

Per my previous post: "Does anyone have the Cokin Z holder, using all 3 slots (not a CP filter though), with a 16mm FOV (40D/10-22) or 17mm FOV (5D/17-40), and get no vignetting?"

If you have this setup, please let me know (via PM also), thanks.