What business software do you use? (TOPIC REVIVED)

[scubafly]

I'm in the market for software to manage my photography business. Photography is mostly a hobby for me but I do enough work for hire that it is becoming difficult to track by my current bar napkin method. :wink: I've looked at a few different programs but haven't found one that suits me. I use PS CS to edit my photos and don't care to have that feature included in the program. What do you recommend that is less than $500US?

[Tom W]

Way back when I had a simple cleaning business (and not a very profitable one), I used a simple spreadsheet to track things. There are probably some decent templates for Excel, Lotus, MS Works, or other spreadsheets that can serve the purpose.

Quickbooks might be a reasonable choice as well, though I'm a little peeved with Intuit these days with the more recent bloated versions of Quicken.

[vfilby]

Set yourself up a spread sheet to track orders, invoices and payments. Also keep all your invoices and such. As long as you use it consistently it will work like a charm.

The custom programs out there are a waste of money (or time in the case of freebies).

[FlipsidE]

Set yourself up a spread sheet to track orders, invoices and payments. Also keep all your invoices and such. As long as you use it consistently it will work like a charm.

The custom programs out there are a waste of money (or time in the case of freebies).

Everyone keeps saying this, but I don't exactly follow why this is the case. I don't understand why people want to make spreadsheets to track all of this stuff. Why not keep it in a central location...database (even if it's your own access design) or something. Spreadsheets are too rigid, and just don't provide an easy way to pull the data back out.

Databases allow you to pull the data back any way you'd like by using queries and reports. You could keep up with all your transactions, reprint any invoices that are needed, and much much more. IMO, even though expensive, it's gotta be better to use something like quickbooks pro to track all of this. I'm sure a little customization would be needed, but after that, it'd be A LOT easier.

Spreadsheets are great for quick calculation, formatting of data in columns, or making a list of some kind. But, to use to run a business...IMO, you'd need a bare minimum of a home grown database built in mysql or access. Otherwise, it just seems like you'd be doing A LOT more work than you really need to do.

FlipsidE

[vfilby]

Agreed a db is ideal, for data storage in just about ever case. A spread sheet will do an adequate job of keeping track of things. It will not do a good job of managing client profiles etc. I use a spreadsheet because a database would be overkill.

Whenever a photo is purchased I write up an invoice and add a line to the spreadsheet with the date, a description, amount, invoiced, image number etc. When I get pain I mark it as paid. That is all I need, a db would be way over kill for this.

If you need to use it, use it; but, there is no sense using the proverbial sledgehammer to pount finishing nails. They key is consistency not power, if you don't use a db consistently it will be no better than the bar napkins.

[FlipsidE]

Agreed a db is ideal, for data storage in just about ever case. A spread sheet will do an adequate job of keeping track of things. It will not do a good job of managing client profiles etc. I use a spreadsheet because a database would be overkill.

Whenever a photo is purchased I write up an invoice and add a line to the spreadsheet with the date, a description, amount, invoiced, image number etc. When I get pain I mark it as paid. That is all I need, a db would be way over kill for this.

If you need to use it, use it; but, there is no sense using the proverbial sledgehammer to pount finishing nails. They key is consistency not power, if you don't use a db consistently it will be no better than the bar napkins.

I follow where you are going with that now.

FlipsidE

[Tom W]

Spreadsheets like Excel do have some flat-file database functions for sorting & analyzing data and making reports, and you can probably set up some macros for printing invoices and other reports. But I agree that for that type of thing, a spreadsheet just isn't as nice as a database program.

It is possible to exchange data among Excel and Access, but I wouldn't know how to do so. Plus, given that its Microsoft, its probably going to take 3 days to perfect the process. I suspect that you'd rather take pictures than troubleshoot linking and embedding.

[vfilby]

On the filp side (intended), db's are incredibly useful. However, access is ugly!!! There are a few different free db's, I am not sure how hard they are to use under windows.

[PhotosGuy]

Look at this:
PhotoByte is already far and away the leading business-automation solution for photographers! Now it is FREE for WIn NT, XP, ME, 2000 & Mac OSX.
It will run on earlier versions, going back to Windows 95, but the graphic appearance of the software on screen will be less than elegant in some cases, and you may experience MS Windows-related operability issues from time to time; i.e., earlier versions of Windows are less stable and may crash.
http://zimberoff.com/photobyte.htm

[vfilby]

Look at this:
PhotoByte is already far and away the leading business-automation solution for photographers! Now it is FREE for WIn NT, XP, ME, 2000 & Mac OSX.
It will run on earlier versions, going back to Windows 95, but the graphic appearance of the software on screen will be less than elegant in some cases, and you may experience MS Windows-related operability issues from time to time; i.e., earlier versions of Windows are less stable and may crash.
http://zimberoff.com/photobyte.htm

As a computer user and programmer I find that program insulting. It is hard to use, nothing is really intuitive. I downloaded it and tried it, I will never touch it again. As far as I am concerned it is not even a real program, it is written in filemaker pro or something similar.

I did try this before choosing my excel method.

[vfilby]

Also, I am a programmer and I agree it is not intuitive to use.

If I were inclined, I would create something, probably PHP based using MySQL as a backend so it could be used in Windows, Mac or Linux.

I believe there is a market for a "well" written application that is both flexible and easy to use. As I have written, in GWBasic no less, a complete Point of Sale program (running on 2 360K floppy disks - this tells you how long ago that was), I have an idea on how to get some of this working. I'm just not motivated to do it.


I have been tempted for quite some time. There are two limitations that stop me: 1. QT is not free for windows. I can write qt code for unix and gpl it but for windows I need to spend a couple grand on a compiler. 2. I would use a real db, not a file system. So I would require postgress or mysql, which causes extra installation hassels for regular users. I could always make it a plugin system so you could use the db if you wanted.

hmmm..... Maybe I should look into this more.

[FlipsidE]

If someone could come up with an easy to use, well written, and functional photography accounting/bookkeeping system, they could make a killing. I have been a programmer in the past, and I have played around with PHP and MySQL in my spare time. But, as someone else posted above, motivation is my issue.

FlipsidE

[vfilby]

Alright guys, I am willing. Send me your input what you think it should do feature wise etc and I'll start thinking about a design.

Send them to vfilby@gmail.com with some recognizable subject line.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

To make money you have to spend money. I use Sports and Event by Exspress digital for digital workflow. They do have a reports section BUT, i have had it work correctly. I have also has several other little bugs that they want me to pay $2300 for an upgrade to fix. ( I have 4 licensed programs for this) My recremdation is not sports and event. I do know of a company that is suposed to put out better software, and I will keep you posted on that. For all of the "suckers" like my self that are entwined in the Exspress Digital Web of deciet and need help, Im always willing to help

[vfilby]

If anyone is serious in partnering, I wouldn't need technology help, I would need photography business help - if anyone's on this thread like that and feels there's a good market for such a tool, email me at j2eeconsulting@yahoo.com

See my post above.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

Keep in mind that there are so many kinds of photographers. There is not one program that will do it all for us. its better to make a program that has a lot of "blanks" for us to fill in then to make a program that works for every one. I think a lot of event imaging programs try to cover to much. and it creates bugs for all. ok
I think it would be wise to cover the basics for all photographers. then break it up to Photo journlism, event photographers, sports photographers, wedding, portraits ect ect. Manyof us Freelancers will do all of the above pluse doing art prints or framing. We also do digital work like scanning and custum work. and after this post, you will know why im a photographer, i can not spell

[BikerFox]

If anyone is serious in partnering, I wouldn't need technology help, I would need photography business help - if anyone's on this thread like that and feels there's a good market for such a tool, email me at j2eeconsulting@yahoo.com

See my post above.

I'm talking about creating a "real" system written in a "real" language with a transactional database, accessible on the web - I can do that. In fact, I've been doing that, for about 5 years now.

So if anyone has the "photography knowledge" just shoot me an email - if there's a market for it, we can create something.

[BikerFox]

Tony, send me an email... j2eeconsulting@yahoo.com

P.S. I was born in Houston

[TonyKInTexas]

.

[vfilby]

Alright, here are my thoughts for those still following.

1. Let's take this discussion off the thread, or start a new thread.

2. As far as platforms go I would vote for QT but qt/win is pricey. It is really the only way to manage platforms decently. There is wxWindows for platform independant code but it is more complicated to get running.

3. As for php, it has it's place and it performs its job quite well. However unless we are talking a stricly webbased app then I would say no. This would require the user to setup a web and db server. A pain and unnecessary hassle.

I have both unix and windows dev capabilities here. QT is free (for gpl'd code) under linux and works quite well.

I have more but I'll leave them for later.

[defordphoto]

Greetings. Now that an offending party has been removed, I have decided to revive this topic as I feel the coherent members participating were on a mission. Please feel free to continue the conversation and I apologize for the interruption.

Thanks for your patience.

[vwpilot]

Have any of you tried out FotoBiz software? http://www.fotobiz.net/

I use this and once you get used to it it works really well. Its also packaged with a great pricing software that makes figuring out what to charge really easy.

It keeps track of clients, invoices, and receivables, you can run reports for accounting purposes and it even has a huge database for keeping track of all your images for stock purposes.

You can take prices you work up in the quote portion of the software and immediately turn them into a printed quote you can send clients and then take that quote and turn it into an invoice.

Might want to check it out if you need a very complete invoicing/client database.

[scubafly]

Thanks for all the tips. I've been looking at BlinkBid but haven't purchased it yet. I'm torn between using a program specific to photography or just using QuickBooks. Anyone out there using BlinkBid?

[defordphoto]

Have any of you tried out FotoBiz software? http://www.fotobiz.net/

Yes I have. Also have used FotoQuote. Nice software if it would be written in anything other than FileMaker, which is a database software. I think that is what originally started some of the problems why I shut down this thread, but the software is very kludgy, non-user friendly and very slow, but it does work.

[TonyKInTexas]

Sounds like PhotoByte which is also a FileMaker Pro application.

Have any of you tried out FotoBiz software? http://www.fotobiz.net/

Yes I have. Also have used FotoQuote. Nice software if it would be written in anything other than FileMaker, which is a database software. I think that is what originally started some of the problems why I shut down this thread, but the software is very kludgy, non-user friendly and very slow, but it does work.

[vfilby]

I tired photobyte and was extremely disappointed. I am busy right now but I think a db driven program would be ok. It would be even better if you had the option of using a db or a file system.

The big challenge here is designing the db schema in such a way as to conveniently and efficiently store the info.

The problem I have is I don't know which data to store. If some fellow pros would be will to divulge which data is important needed and such I would like to give it a go.

[dhbailey]

The best would be a system you devised yourself, I would think.

Decide just what sorts of records you will really need, both for tax purposes as well as for clarity in running your business.

I would think that for a photography business using a relational database would be ideal, but you will have to learn how to build your own databases to go into the setup.

One database would hold customer information, name, address, phone, and a unique defining customer number (that will be the field to relate the customer records to other databases and reports). One database would hold your product information -- cost of hiring you to photograph an event (base fee for first hour or two plus hourly rate for extra time), price of prints, price of digital copies of pictures, price of physical photo albums you put together, price of digital photo albums, anything you charge for should have a predefined price in this database. That way as you can your prices you only have to change them in this database once and the price changes will be used in your calculations. Each thing you sell would have a part number, which would be the unique linking field to relate item prices to the other databases. Another database would be the order/invoice database, where you enter specific wishes for the customer.

There are books on building business databases such as these. Alpha Five, version 5 Home is more than sufficient for this purpose, but others such as Foxpro or Filepro or Paradox are useful this way.

Or, if you're going to be a small business, you might find that doing it all on paper is much easier, or simply having a physically printed price list and then using your word-processor to print the invoices or work-order sheets will be more than sufficient. Keep two folders, one to hold your business expense receipts for the month and one to hold the paid invoices for the month and at the end of each month, enter the totals (for each category in the expenses) in a spreadsheet to keep a running total for the year. That will satisfy the IRS.

Keep it as simple as you can for the size of your business -- it is easy to get very bogged down in business software when all you really need is a single piece of paper for each job. Don't end up having to spend as much time at your computer doing the paperwork as you spend with the camera.

[vwpilot]

but the software is very kludgy, non-user friendly and very slow, but it does work.

Yeah, that is why I mentioned that once you got used to it, it was pretty good. I like the features, I wish it was a little more user friendly, but it does what I need and once you know how to get around it, its not hard to use at all.

[dougsturgess]

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about PhotoByte. It's not intuitive and a real pain to try to use. I can't believe people even use it. They must have a lot more patience than I do.

As a computer user and programmer I find that program insulting. It is hard to use, nothing is really intuitive. I downloaded it and tried it, I will never touch it again. As far as I am concerned it is not even a real program, it is written in filemaker pro or something similar.

I did try this before choosing my excel method.

[convergent]

I've gone back and forth between Excel and Quickbooks... I'm trying QB again now, but its hard to beat a simple Excel spreadsheet sometimes.

[wilzdezign]

It is probably not much, but I just downloaded and started using Microsoft's Accounting Express 2007 (http://www.ideawins.com). It allows me to create full vendors and banking accounts, plus create invoice and quotes as Word templates that I can modify.

[Trigger Happy]

I heard of a piece of software that is directed towards photography business software. It's called MyVBA (http://www.myvba.com) and provides online calendar management, booking and reservations, lead generation and professional networking. It's primarily a tool that optimizes and streamlines the sales process so that clients can see your calendar of availability and book you online. It also keeps track of sales statistics and analytics. Hope that helps.

[dbvirago]

Yeah, I tried Photobyte too. As stated not intuitive. It might have been a decent program regardless if there was some documentation, but none seems to exist. Little things, like how to set it up, how to use it, how to get rid of all the 'test' data that comes preloaded.

I too, am a programmer. I have written an app in VB with an Access back end to handle tracking my stock images and income. I could expand this to handle my entire business and make it user friendly,etc. but I probably won't. Why? Because as other have said, a spreadsheet is good enough. You need to track income and expenses. Everything you do is some variation on those two. If you really want more, I would suggest Quckbooks. I have used Quicken for 20+ years and if Quickboos is as good, it's a winner.

[Converge]

Quickbooks pro and FotoBiz

[sfaust]

PhotoByte is a good idea gone terribly wrong! I tried like hell to figure it all out, and it was a mess. Nothing intuitive about it at all. It's like if it was written by one of the software engineers that have no clue about usability, human factors, or how people think.

Actually, I would bet it was hacked together over a period of years without any forethought into a logical flow. I picked it up, tried, got frustrated, put it down. Then did it again after 6 months or so with the same results.

Well, recently I decided to try FotoBiz. So far, excellent. Much more intuitive, although it does suffer from being a DB application rather than a native one. But its very usable.

It has shaved a substantial amount of time off handling communications, writing estimates and bids, usage agreements, invoices, confirmations, etc. All communications I send out can be done in half the time, and it also logs it for future reference. You have a full report of paperwork send to t a client. Makes me wonder what the hell I was trying to do with excel, ms word, my own hodgepodge of templates, forms, etc.

There are only a few things I'd like to do with FotoBiz that I can't seem to do at the moment, but otherwise its a real time saver for commercial photographers. I don't think it would add as much value for a portrait or wedding photographer. Ie, they generally don't need to write licensing agreements, bids, estimates, and so on. That's where the power of FotoBiz comes into play.

So far, two thumbs up for FotoBiz. And the $199 update from FotoQuote made it attractive.

[Karl C]

Quickbooks has their free version called Simple Start 2008 for Windows (http://quickbooks.intuit.com/product/accounting-software/free-accounting-software.jhtml).

[michael_]

stephen what things would you like fotoboz to do that it doesnt currently?

[sfaust]

stephen what things would you like fotoboz to do that it doesnt currently?

I can't modify the terms and conditions on the back of the invoices, etc, so I just use my own and have pre-printed sheets. Then I just print the invoices on these pre-printed sheets, and end up with the T&Cs I want.

I can't get it to print envelopes properly. It wants to print the envelops on the left side when I choose narrow, but my printer needs the envelopes fed on the right side. I can use wide mode to make it work, but then I have to had feed each envelope.

I want to use a specific invoice number system, but I may be locked into using their sequential numbering. I like to number my invoices the same as my job numbers, which are not sequential. I don't see a way to input my own numbering.

These are the only things I've uncovered for now, and there maybe ways around it. But I can live with them also if need be. Nothing is perfect, and this is far and away better than my old system using Word, Excel, Outlook, and files as templates and forms.

[vwpilot]

Stephen, dig a little deeper into the terms and conditions things. I've been using FotoBiz for quite a few years and, though I dont use it for that, I was almost positive there was a way to customize those to meet your needs.

As for the envelope thing, thats strange, every laser printer I have ever owned does envelopes from the left side, not sure you can figure that one out.

I know that you cannot customize the numbering system for invoices. When I switched to a Mac version, the company was great and gave me the Mac version for free, however, I wanted to start the numbering where my PC version left off. There was simply no way to do it when I spoke with them. I had to actually enter all my old invoices into the new software till I got to where I left off. I was going to do it eventually anyway to have it all on one machine, but I had to do it immediately in order to get my next invoice out with the right number on it. It was a royal pain in the butt and something they said they would consider altering for the next version.

I'd say give them a call if you have any questions. They are very small and extremely helpful over the phone.

[sfaust]

I can change some of the terms and conditions. They have a page for it, but it appears that they are using 3 different terms and conditions from the major organizations, ASMP, APA, and Editorial Photographers. You can pick which one of those you want to use, and then the terms can be modified but only for a few things in a form. I wish they had a template like they do for all the other correspondence that I could use instead. But I'll keep digging, maybe I missed something.

My Epson and HP both feed on the right. But I think wide mode will work now that I think about it. I was trying to use narrow since that is what I was used to with word. No reason I need to stick with narrow.

Bummer on the invoicing. I think they use it for a database id, so it needs to be sequential. I wish they had an internal id, and then you could modify the invoice number. I'd prefer different, but I can live with it.

Over time as I get into it deeper and deeper, I'll find more things I wish I can do, and things I didn't know I could. All in all, its the best $199 I've spend to date on my business!!

[vwpilot]

Stephen,

If you want to use or add another number to your invoice for your own tracking, you could use one of the other searchable inputs such as the shipper number or the PO number position. If you dont normally use those for the actual invoices, then you could probably use either of those for searching or your own records.

Likewise you could also use the notes area as well.

Yup, its not perfect, but its pretty darn good. And the second version is a ton better than the first so I imagine it will only get better with each subsequent version.

[sfaust]

Thats a good idea Jim. I'm already using the client job for my own job number. I'd used the PO number for the clients PO's, but the shipper is something I wouldn't use. The only weird part is that it will show up on the invoices to the clients, but thats not all that important. They won't really know what its about, and probably never question it.

Do you use the image log at all? I use other search and archival tools, but it might be handy when I license individual images. I'd only log the licensed images. Other tools are far more handy and quick when it comes to creating a database of keyworded images. Just curious how others may be using it.

Thanks for the help Jim.

[vwpilot]

No I dont. I do very little stock work so its really not a problem. I'll usually just put the photo file name in the actual invoice and call it good on that. Most of my work is assignment work so the rights writer is a much more helpful item.

However, I dont even use the program's invoices to send to clients. I dont really like the way they look and actually use Excel to produce invoices. I use the invoicing for record keeping of course, but just make a pretty one to send to the client. I have a template and it only takes a few minutes to create the final client invoice after creating it all in FotoBiz and letting it create the invoice numbers.

You might want to call them and ask if they have any other ideas. I've talked with them several times and as I said before they are extremely helpful in trying to figure out solutions for you. They also take the ideas into account for future versions.

[sfaust]

I don't shoot stock either, but thought it might work for the odd images licensed outside of an assignment. I'll play around it with more.

I was using excel to create invoices for the client, and then inputting the categories into Quick Books for tracking. Because it saves so much time, I'm now using the FotoBiz invoices. They aren't as pretty as my own, but there fine, quick, easy, and restate licensing/terms. Anything that saves me time is a good thing.

I'll give them a call when I get a few more questions or issues.

Again, appreciate your help here.

[JoesLdy]

Anyone gone and tried any open source programs? I am looking around sourceforge and finding some that don't look too shabby- at no cost. You might try that out sourceforge.net or just do a search for open source bookkeeping software.

I used QuickBooks for a while - it's not horrible... but I agree that something directly geared at photographers would be nice.

Then again- I just throw my receipts in a folder and guestimate a lot of the time- so who am I to talk? ;)

[michael_]

so i purchased fotobiz and photoquote 5, and with one job it has paid for itself, without it i would have undercharged like no tomorrow.

[sfaust]

so i purchased fotobiz and photoquote 5, and with one job it has paid for itself, without it i would have undercharged like no tomorrow.

And you would have left a lot of money in the clients pocket that they were happy to pay, then bitched till tomorrow about how hard it is to make a living at photography! :)

I wish Fotobiz would merge with QuickBooks. That would complete my software arsenal to LR, CS3, and FB. Then if all three could merge!

Think of how awesome that could work. When you select images in the LR module it creates a workflow for you in CS3 feeding you each image in sequence. When you are done in CS3 it tells LR to print or FTP the images, tells FB/QB to add them tot he clients invoice, and tracks the entire project, images, billing, rights, etc.

Never happen, but a nice dream :)

[michael_]

yes i would have :) cant be doing that

adding them automagically to image tracking would be awesome, i have to admit i think one of the best features is the 'coach' section some really simple tips thats i had never thought of.

Have you contacted fotobiz or cradoc directly asking if they would do that sort of feature?

[sfaust]

No I haven't. But I have a few items that I will send on for a wish list to them. I'll add that one too. I can always ask, and the worse is that they ignore it :)

[michael_]

im inclined to believe they may think about it, smaller dev projects tend to, the motorsport organisation i represent recently purchased lightbox gallery software and we have been in contact with the developers with some ideas and they have already implemented them for us so fingers crossed.

[ChadAndreo]

How about a 3 year later update?

[LVP]

I've been using Foto SF Lite for a little while and I'm pretty unimpressed. It's based on Filemaker and claims to have all the functionality of the non-lite version except networking but it doesn't - for example you cannot export your contacts. Having spent a couple of days inputting them I'd like to export them to my address book but I can't.

Other niggles?

When bulk emailing from the programme you cannot add a signature, which doesn't look very professional.

When I enquired if this would be a feature of an update I was told that it would, along with lots of other 'exciting' new stuff. 6 months later I enquired through their support process when this update could be expected and was told, (a whole week later), there wouldn't be any updates. So I guess they're not bothered about investing in the software's future and are happy to lie to their customers.

Adding your logo to any letters etc looks really naff.

Printing out the wedding day plan results in pages and pages of paper, only half of which is printed on.

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's uses and I'm sure I've only used a fraction of it's functionality but there are some really annoying things about it, (you really should be able to add a signature to a business email after all), which make me think I'm gonna ditch it. Unfortunately I can't find anything which ticks all my boxes so I'm probably going to have to just buy Filemaker and custom build my own database. Unless anyone else has any good tips, (he wrote, hopefully)...