The Snowball Effect...need some advice (LONG)

[FlipsidE]

So, as some of you probably know, starting probably next April, I am considering taking up shooting watersports (specifically Wakeboarding). But, tonight, my mind just starting going wild when I finally saw the snowball effect this could start. I may be blowing this out of proportion here, but I am curious if any of you have any advice for me.

Let me start out by saying that I don't plan to make any money with photography (at least at the begining). I'm more in it for the fun of seeing the results of a good shoot. But, at the same time, I think it'd be kind of foolish to turn down the opportunity to make a few dollars if the situation presented itself.

So, let's say next year, I go out to shoot an event. A rider or parent (most of these kids are in high school) comes up to me and asks me if they can get some prints of some of the pictures I've taken (of their son, daughter, friend, themselves, etc.). So, here is where the first little pebble starts to roll down the snow...the model release.

As a quick aside, I dropped by barnes and noble today to check out a few books on technique when I picked up a photography legal forms book. Now, this just hadn't crossed my mind, but since I will most definitely start out by photographing kids in high school, they'll need a parent/guardian to also sign the release.

So, anyway, I ask if they are 18, and they say no. So, I ask them to get their parents to sign the form also. Unfortunately their parents aren't there. So, I can't help them until they get that release signed.

Now let's assume that we have the model release signed and in my posession. So, the parent/rider asks me how he can contact me for prints. Now, I've already made up my mind that I will use something like printroom.com or pictures4life.com rather than printing my own prints. But, at the same time, this is an excellent time to hand out my card (if for nothing else than exposure).

Now the above paragraph raises a few more issues. First question, do I need to have a business started? For both the sake of printroom/pictures4life and the sake of my business card, it would seem almost necessary to have a business started. Would you agree? Or would you disagree? Secondly, what about the contact number?. Do you all use a cell phone or a land line phone for a contact number? And if you use a land line, do you use a personal or business account? Thirdly, what about my townhouse complex?. I rent a townhouse versus owning a house, and I'm not sure what kind of rules they would have. Now, I know they wouldn't worry about a second phone line being installed (they wouldn't have a problem with that at all). But, they might have an issue with a business line being used inside one of their townhouses. None of my clients will ever actually set foot inside the townhouse for business reasons. But, at the same time, my computers, photos, and contact phone line will be there.

As you can see, something as small and innocent as going to take a few photos of a wakeboarding event has now turned into a huge snowball. And, I'm sure it's only going to get bigger from there.

I'd like to make this entire process as simple as possible, but at the same time, I want to be ABSOLUTELY prepared. If even on my very first wakeboarding photo shoot, someone asks if they can buy a print, I want to be ready to react w/out hesitation. What all do I need to do? Do I need to go about researching all of the questions I brought up above? Should I go ahead and get the ball rollin on starting my own business?

Thanks in advance.

FlipsidE

[IndyJeff]

Why are you getting model releases? Are you planning on selling the images for advertising use or something?

[FlipsidE]

I thought model releases were required when any money is made from the sale of a photo (be it to the subject or anyone else). Say a person wanted a photo of a friend of theirs doing a trick. Wouldn't I need a model release for that?

FlipsidE

[CyberDyneSystems]

If you sell the photos for publication or advertising.. then you need a model release.

If you sell the phtos to the people you photograph? Never heard of such a thing.

If you sell the photos in an art gallery or as "art" then you don't need a model release if the photos were taken in a public place.


As to the main aspect of your question,


This is why I shoot birds :wink: :P

[Scottes]

If you sell the photos in an art gallery or as "art" then you don't need a model release if the photos were taken in a public place.

Are you positive on this? I had always thought otherwise.

Then again, "display" isn't "commercial" right? So you *only* need a model release if you're going to make money from the sale of a photo?

[FlipsidE]

If you sell the phtos to the people you photograph? Never heard of such a thing.

- Wow...I guess I was COMPLETELY off on that one. My bad.

FlipsidE

[LarryB]

.....I may be blowing this out of proportion here,.....

Please don't take this the wrong way but.....kinda....yea. I will try to elaborate as follows.

Let me start out by saying that I don't plan to make any money with photography (at least at the begining). I'm more in it for the fun of seeing the results of a good shoot. But, at the same time, I think it'd be kind of foolish to turn down the opportunity to make a few dollars if the situation presented itself.

Why don't you want to make money? How are you going to pay for all the things you will need to operate a business? (second phone line, additional camera equipment, additional computer equipment,...and the list goes on) If you give it away, people will expect that from you. It is extremely difficult to raise your prices to a decent level when you start out at free.

Look at it this way....let's say that one week you ran across someone giving widgets away. Then the following week that same person was SELLING those same widgets at the going rate. What would you think of that person? Or those widgets?

So, let's say next year, I go out to shoot an event. A rider or parent (most of these kids are in high school) comes up to me and asks me if they can get some prints of some of the pictures I've taken (of their son, daughter, friend, themselves, etc.). So, here is where the first little pebble starts to roll down the snow...the model release.

If you are selling images of a person TO that person, there is no need for a release. If you are planning to sell those images commercially, THEN you need a release.

As a quick aside, I dropped by barnes and noble today to check out a few books on technique when I picked up a photography legal forms book. Now, this just hadn't crossed my mind, but since I will most definitely start out by photographing kids in high school, they'll need a parent/guardian to also sign the release.

See above.

So, anyway, I ask if they are 18, and they say no. So, I ask them to get their parents to sign the form also. Unfortunately their parents aren't there. So, I can't help them until they get that release signed.

You have just lost your first sale. If you hassle them, they will walk away and NOT come back....and tell all their friends.....who will tell all their friends......yadda yadda

Now let's assume that we have the model release signed and in my posession. So, the parent/rider asks me how he can contact me for prints. Now, I've already made up my mind that I will use something like printroom.com or pictures4life.com rather than printing my own prints. But, at the same time, this is an excellent time to hand out my card (if for nothing else than exposure).

Now the above paragraph raises a few more issues. First question, do I need to have a business started? For both the sake of printroom/pictures4life and the sake of my business card, it would seem almost necessary to have a business started. Would you agree? Or would you disagree?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "do I need to have a business name"? If so, yes it would be a good idea. Or do you mean "do I need to have a business license (if needed in your area) and a sales tax ID number etc". Yes you do. You do know you have to collect and report income and charge/pay sales tax....right? Otherwise, if you are out taking photographs with the intention of selling them, you have indeed already "started a business".

Secondly, what about the contact number?. Do you all use a cell phone or a land line phone for a contact number? And if you use a land line, do you use a personal or business account? Thirdly, what about my townhouse complex?. I rent a townhouse versus owning a house, and I'm not sure what kind of rules they would have. Now, I know they wouldn't worry about a second phone line being installed (they wouldn't have a problem with that at all). But, they might have an issue with a business line being used inside one of their townhouses. None of my clients will ever actually set foot inside the townhouse for business reasons. But, at the same time, my computers, photos, and contact phone line will be there.

While it is not particularly necessary, a dedicated phone line for business purposes is a good idea (also a write off :) ). That way you know when you are getting a business call. Plus, it establishes you as someone who is serious about being in business. And did I mention it's a write off?
As far as the complex owners go....as long as you are not conducting "foot traffic" business in your townhouse, I see no reason for the complex owners to care. What about Real Estate agents that work from home? Or Life Insurance salesmen that make their calls from home? You'd be surprised at how many businesses are run from home....or townhomes. :wink:

As you can see, something as small and innocent as going to take a few photos of a wakeboarding event has now turned into a huge snowball. And, I'm sure it's only going to get bigger from there.

Here's wishing you the best in that regard. [_]0

I'd like to make this entire process as simple as possible, but at the same time, I want to be ABSOLUTELY prepared. If even on my very first wakeboarding photo shoot, someone asks if they can buy a print, I want to be ready to react w/out hesitation. What all do I need to do? Do I need to go about researching all of the questions I brought up above? Should I go ahead and get the ball rollin on starting my own business?

Sometimes you can overthink things and get so bogged down with details that you "can't see the forest for the trees". A little common sense will go a long way.

One thing I do HIGHLY recommend is an accountant. HIRE ONE!!! He/she can advise you on financial matters (perhaps even set you up with their own software and/or method of doing things) and save you a TON of money in the long run.

Good luck with your adventure. Just take a deep breath...and CHILL DUDE!!! :lol:

[CyberDyneSystems]

Hah.. I can't delete a double post in here :oops: :roll:

[CyberDyneSystems]

If you sell the photos in an art gallery or as "art" then you don't need a model release if the photos were taken in a public place.

Are you positive on this? I had always thought otherwise.

Then again, "display" isn't "commercial" right? So you *only* need a model release if you're going to make money from the sale of a photo?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have not looked this up myself actually.. but this is what I have understood to be the case for some time.

It is the "commercial" use of the persons image that requires a model release.

"Art" for some reason does not necessarily mean commercial (most art institutions are Non profit etc..)

So... no I'm not sure.. but this is what I have read.

[FlipsidE]

LarryB,

Thanks man!! I really do appreciate all that info. I'll stop thinkin so hard about it :).

Thanks again!

FlipsidE

[IndyJeff]

Flip think about all the photographers out there doing event work, be it sports, proms, cheerleading competitions, etc, etc. Now if they were required to get a model release from each and every person who they are shooting can you imagine why anyone would want to go into such a venture? I know I would never consider it. If someone does ask that you not photograph them or their child, politely say ok and thank you. Notify the powers that be that you can no longer shoot that game because of the restriction placed upon you by the objecting person/parent.

You might keep in mind that if you do get an image which might be a good stock shot, a model release would be essential. Beware that when you approach a parent and explain that you want them to sign a waiver for their childs image which you are going to try to market for commercial purposes, they sometimes get very suspicious. I had a couple of shots that I asked for a release for this year and got them. I had one that the parent flat out asked me not to submit their childs image for any kind of stock considerations. She stated she didn't want her daughter to be used to sell products. I agreed not to and thanked her. They went home and did purchase an 8x10 of that same image from my website.

[stevo12886]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "do I need to have a business name"? If so, yes it would be a good idea. Or do you mean "do I need to have a business license (if needed in your area) and a sales tax ID number etc". Yes you do. You do know you have to collect and report income and charge/pay sales tax....right? Otherwise, if you are out taking photographs with the intention of selling them, you have indeed already "started a business".

wait, so if i go to shoot some sports for my highschool, just for the heck of it, and a parent/friend asks me to sell them the photo i cant (legaly) do so w/o a buisness license and a sales tax ID number?

[LarryB]

Stevo,

If you only sell a print here and there you probably don't need licenses. However, if you approach this as a business with the intent of making a profit on a regular basis and promote yourself as such then yes, you will have to put all your ducks in a row and give Uncle Sam his cut. When you do so, you can then deduct the expenses of doing business.

Again, an accountant can advise you on what is needed legally to "hang out a shingle" in your area.

The original post was asking about doing this as a business (for profit). My answer was geared towards that question.

[PhotosGuy]

You might be able to register a business name as a D/B/A/ (Doing business as) through your County Clerk, but you'll have to check it out where you live. Cost here is $10/5years, & your bank will cash checks made out to the business name that you deposit to a personal account if you have a DBA.

I'd go with the cell phone - no need for an answering machine, & you're more likely to get the first call, the call cancelling out as you're going to location...

RE: "do I need to have a business started?" Like "FlipsidE, Inc"? Probably not if you're not running one & we're only talking about $100-200/year. It doesn't sound to me as if it will be your main source of income, but you should check that out with experts where you live.