What steps to take for photoging kids sports?

[BikerFox]

Ok, I was thinking of contacitng our local sports department about covering events since I dont think there is anyone doing that currently. But how do you make money at it, just by selling photos to parents? Do you basically cover games and then hope people are interesting in buying photos? Or does the sports organization pay you sitting fees?

Thanks

[DKFSTUDIOS]

It will depend on your market. I do tournaments and do quite well, (hockey mostly). Its nice to give back a % to the orginzation as a way to say thanks (ok so its not nice, but it keeps us in there)
One thing to keep in mind is the ones that are digital and print on location. Impulse buying is what we thrive on.
By the way every one, Im a newbie here.

[robertwgross]

If you work the deal early enough with the team or league management, you can get them to put the "photography agreement" into their team or league registration form that the parents have to sign. Then copies of that go to you, so it protects you if there is any problem later.

So, if the team or league management is doing that for you, you do something for them. For example, you shoot the team photos for free, and the management gets a free print. Then you get to sell the prints to the parents.

---Bob Gross---

[BikerFox]

Robert, thanks. I've heard that as well.

I'm looking for more how do you actually make money - is it through photo sales to parents?

[robertwgross]

I'm looking for more how do you actually make money - is it through photo sales to parents?

I'm not aware of any alternative here to selling prints. They are not going to want to buy photographic rights, and the shots aren't going to be published anywhere, except for the possibility of a small town newspaper.

---Bob Gross---

[IndyJeff]

BikerFox there are two ways of making money off youth sports, basically. On site and online sales. Online is the easiest to get started with. I use printroom, a pro account which does cost $99 a year and 16% commission to include accepting credit cards. You price the prints as you see fit. All commissions and print costs come out of that amount. You upload a thumbnail and when someone buys, you get a notice and upload the fullsize image. This can be done as a one man operation, of course you need to have away that the parents can find oiut about you so a booth set up with someone there is a good way to get the word out.

On site printing is good for "spur of the moment" purchases but, you need a good printer which is pretty damn fast. A laptop to edit and print from and of course someone who can do that. You also need a way for the parents to view the images available.

Just starting out you might be better off with the online sales, unless you already have the setup for fast printing. Just have a good way to let the parents know about you.

[BikerFox]

BikerFox there are two ways of making money off youth sports, basically. On site and online sales. Online is the easiest to get started with. I use printroom, a pro account which does cost $99 a year and 16% commission to include accepting credit cards.

Meaning, I get 16% or the service gets 16%?

of course you need to have away that the parents can find oiut about you so a booth set up with someone there is a good way to get the word out.

That's the main question I had, was how to do that. The only thing I could think of was having the leagues mention it when they sign up, or a signup sheet at each event.

On site printing is good for "spur of the moment" purchases but, you need a good printer which is pretty darn fast. A laptop to edit and print from and of course someone who can do that. You also need a way for the parents to view the images available.

I have a laptop and can do that, but wouldn't it be difficult to do that so quickly? I worry about the quality of image editing and printing. I've been told those printers don't print near as good of quality as a lab.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

For Event Photography, this is what i bring on location:
4 computers with sports and event software, which alows me to do almost everything from ssingle prints to pacages, I only sell in 8x10 sheets and they start at $12.00 and go up to $20 And then there are poster prints to (12x18) and double sided trading cards, laminated.
For printing, I have 3 kodak 8650 dysubs, and anepson 2200.
Printing on location is a must for me, 95% of my customers exspect it.
another nice touch (would not do an event with out them) are graphics or borders. a good 80% or more of my sales are with a border of some sort. And of course, I charge extra for that
For staffing, I like to have at least one other photographer and my self and two computer people if not more. Your sales on a 3 day tournament will be slow the first few days and then you will get slamed on the last day. Its also wise to have paper and pens handy for the parents to write down game and photo numbers. I usualy have a space on the back of the business card for this.. gives them my card as well as a record of what prints they like.

[BikerFox]

For Event Photography, this is what i bring on location:
4 computers with sports and event software, which alows me to do almost everything from ssingle prints to pacages, I only sell in 8x10 sheets and they start at $12.00 and go up to $20 And then there are poster prints to (12x18) and double sided trading cards, laminated.
For printing, I have 3 kodak 8650 dysubs, and anepson 2200.
Printing on location is a must for me, 95% of my customers exspect it.
another nice touch (would not do an event with out them) are graphics or borders. a good 80% or more of my sales are with a border of some sort. And of course, I charge extra for that
For staffing, I like to have at least one other photographer and my self and two computer people if not more. Your sales on a 3 day tournament will be slow the first few days and then you will get slamed on the last day. Its also wise to have paper and pens handy for the parents to write down game and photo numbers. I usualy have a space on the back of the business card for this.. gives them my card as well as a record of what prints they like.

Sounds like a pretty pro setup.

But how do you deal with the fact that photos need editing right there on the fly, which takes time??

[DKFSTUDIOS]

First you shoot in a style that reduces your editing, use adobe for an auto correct when you have time. Also rememeber our standards of what makes a great print is about 75% above the costumers expectations. To have a "perfect" photo is not as important as having a happy custumer.
In adition to the The sports and evet programing can adjust each picture befor you print, so you basickly edit it in front of the custumer to thier liking. They feel important when they are part of the corection and it help sales.
When a parent first sees the picture they think its great, then when you lighten or darken it a little they are just in awe. when we crop it in a little more ect. parents love it

[BikerFox]

The sports and evet programing can adjust each picture befor you print, so you basickly edit it in front of the custumer to thier liking. They feel important when they are part of the corection and it help sales.

So you don't run into rpoblems getting "swamped" doing that? I'd be afraid a line would form; maybe I'm too pessimistic.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

Of course there is a line.. the event software i use helps with work flow over adobe ect. but if you have a line persay, you look busy, tells people your product is in demand, and if your in demand, you sell more. That is also part of the reason i have 4 computers, not one. The key is people that can push the work through, aka your sales people. as soon as the order is done you just simply say next and keep it going

[blackviolet]

what we do with rugby is go to a field where there are sevaral kids games going on throughout the day (or 2 fields if they are close by). whichever is the 'home' team, we tend to focus more on their kids (for example Belrose), as there may be 6 or 7 games in the day, but a Belrose team will be playing in all of the games. we note the age groups of the teams (to help us find their parents the following week as well as the 'away' team later in the season). we try to get at least one shot of each child carrying the ball as well as making a tackle.

we then do any editing throughout the week and thursday/friday print out all of the acceptable prints in 4x6. any that are exceptionally good, we'll blow up larger.

my wife can go to the field the next time they have 'home' games to showcase the prints. almost every parent buys the 4x6 for a few bucks and many will order enlargements (often multiple copies!). the 6 and 7 year old's parents will buy many pictures throughout the year, where after about 13, parents are less likely to buy photos. sports cards are also a huge hit, too. meanwhile, i hit a different field and start the process again. by the end of the season (15 games+), we will have hit all the teams in one league and then can choose some teams in another league. people also like getting photos of their kids playing in the grandfinal/championship game - if they win... so we will bring a laptop and people can order prints (to be mailed/delivered) at the end of the game, but yes there is always a big crowd and it's difficult. i like the idea of having extra computers and some helpers

cricket is much harder as the players all wear white (no numbers) and have hats or helmets on. but we use a similar process.

good luck - i hope it all works out for you

[DKFSTUDIOS]

With the cost of printing, doing prints befor they are sold is hard for us to do. we do a few examples but they tend to sell each tournament..Parents tend to buy on the impluse.. often if i do a poster print its sold with inthe hour, though the parents are usualy nice enough to let us use if for an example.
We also tend to shoot 150-200 pics per game so there are lots to choose from. for us the more comptuers the better
with our system all the picures are loaded into one comptuter and the rest draw from that one computer which is also a print servr
our bigest seller is graphic borders avalable in all sizes, and we only print in 8x10 sheets. we do encuage parents to combine prints of there are parents that only want one print. if you show the parents u want to help them save, then they remember that.. and buy more later
We never just focus on the home team. I feel that is unfair to the rest of the teams, and would also decrease our sales.
when we do a tournament that has more then one feild or court, if i dont have enough photographers, we shoot a few periods of one then go to the next.

[blackviolet]

we take about 1200 or so pics on a busy day with 6 or 7 games. some weekends we also shoot on sundays. we focus on the home team but also take photos of the other team as well. remember that we travel to the other fields as well. so later when we take photos of that team, we've already had lots of prints to choose from.

printing up 100 or so 4x6 prints costs next to nothing (only about $.20) each and we'll sell most all of them for $3 each (2 for $5, etc.) plus take in quite a few orders for enlargements. we did quite a few 20x30 posters last season and squillions of a4/8x10. we always print way more prints for the 6, 7, and to some extent 8 year olds as their parents buy everythig we have.

we also do lots of team photos at the end of the year.

[nemesis099]

First off what equipment would you recommend (camera and lenses) to photograph sports like soccer, lacrosse, and football? I have a digital rebel and I'm thinking of getting the Canon 100-400. I'm not sure if this is the lense I should get? I'm also not sure if my rebel is fast enough for sports photography (might get a 20D).

My other question is what printer do you use at the event to print with? I have the computers to use but I do not know of a good fast printer (within a reasonable price).

Also has anyone tried to take photos at private school events? Before I do any I will of course talk with the school or league.

And also I have to say the advise so far has been very good!

Thanks!!

[DKFSTUDIOS]

While the rebel is slow, you should be able to make it work with the right camera settings. I sugest a 70-200 2.8. Yes, its pricy but in the end its worth it. I shot for years wiht fstops of 3.5 or higher. There is a HUGE differance with the 70-200 2.8. The lense is also faster.
For printing, I sugets the soney or kodak lines of dye sub printers. and most of all, i sugest a good workflow program. While sports and event has problems, it does help workflow. There are other programs out there. I would look into them befor i would consider sports and event by exspress digital.
It also might be wise to spend some time working with other sports and event photographers. You can save your self alot of hassel if you have an idea what you are doing. Its really easy to think you know how to do it but when u get to the feild you relize its a lot of extra work. Not to anger any one on the forums, but if photography is a part time job or more of a hoby, leave the shooting to the professionals. We make ALL of our living at this. When some one comes in and undercuts us becuse they are just trying to make extra cash hurts us all. I once had a problem with a hockey assocation that sais well this photographer last year could sell this for xamount of dollars. but his pictures were not any good. your pictures are great, but why cant you sell for that price.
I simply said that people pay for knowledge. If you want cheep prints higher some one that does not have my knowlege of photography.

[nemesis099]

While the rebel is slow, you should be able to make it work with the right camera settings. I sugest a 70-200 2.8. Yes, its pricy but in the end its worth it. I shot for years wiht fstops of 3.5 or higher. There is a HUGE differance with the 70-200 2.8. The lense is also faster.
For printing, I sugets the soney or kodak lines of dye sub printers. and most of all, i sugest a good workflow program. While sports and event has problems, it does help workflow. There are other programs out there. I would look into them befor i would consider sports and event by exspress digital.
When some one comes in and undercuts us becuse they are just trying to make extra cash hurts us all. I once had a problem with a hockey assocation that sais well this photographer last year could sell this for xamount of dollars. but his pictures were not any good. your pictures are great, but why cant you sell for that price.


Thanks for the advice. I have actually just started looking into this because I was taking pictures for my family of their kids playing sports and they really think I should look into doing this in my area where no one is in the market (as far as I know). I know that I missed pictures last time because of the cheap Sigma lense I had (some where fuzzy also) which is the reason for the upgrade.

I'll have to check about the dye sub printers since I haven't looked those up before.

I also plan on charging a premium for pictures and that all. Before I do anything though I will have to talk with the Private schools in my area and the leagues to see if they will allow me to shoot (don't want to be sued). Right now I think I will stick with taking pics of my cousin for more practice (plus my Uncle buys a lot of the pics to send out to family).

Thanks again for the advice!!

[BikerFox]

Not to anger any one on the forums, but if photography is a part time job or more of a hoby, leave the shooting to the professionals. We make ALL of our living at this. .

DFK, thanks so much for all the info.

As to the comment, it doesn't anger me, but you should realize that everyone has to start somewhere and work their way up. I'm sure you were "born" a pro sports shooter, right? Not sure I agree with "leave it to the pros" and just give up. My plan is to start small and move my way up over time. Thanks

[nemesis099]

DFK, thanks so much for all the info.

As to the comment, it doesn't anger me, but you should realize that everyone has to start somewhere and work their way up. I'm sure you were "born" a pro sports shooter, right? Not sure I agree with "leave it to the pros" and just give up. My plan is to start small and move my way up over time. Thanks

I think he was more talking about those that just want to do this for fun on the side and are not looking to move up at all. If you are looking to become a pro sports shoter I think starting it as a side business until you can live off of it should be fine after all most people don't just jump in to see if they can make it.

[BikerFox]

If you are looking to become a pro sports shoter I think starting it as a side business until you can live off of it should be fine after all most people don't just jump in to see if they can make it.

Yes, that's what I meant. In my industry (IT/tech) it frustrates me when I see people cop an attitude and look down on people with no experience. It's like, "ok, so you were just BORN with this knowledge and never were on ground 0?" I'm not saying that was DFK's inference at all, just making a comment about people in THIS industry. DFK's great and has posted all kinds of good info. The commente just reminded me of people in this industry and how they are sometimes.

As for becoming a sports shooter, I'm still not sure if that's the area I want to get into. That's what I enjoy the most, but I get the impression it's far more easy to make a living at portraiture and weddings.(?)

[nemesis099]

As for becoming a sports shooter, I'm still not sure if that's the area I want to get into. That's what I enjoy the most, but I get the impression it's far more easy to make a living at portraiture and weddings.(?)

I was thinking about weddings but after seeing some of the pictures the photographer took at my wedding I just think I lack the creativity for some of the shots he took. I also talked to the photographer at my cousins wedding (really nice guy) and he gave me some advice about some of the shots I was taking and even was jumping over my shoulder to get some shots that I had setup. But anything artistic I would need some help with.

I find sports to be of more a capturing the right moment since you really can't take it again if the shot didn't come out right. Part of the reason I was looking at getting a 20D so that I can get shot of a catch from the jump to the grab to the landing and see which one fits better. Its not spray and pray its just a matter of getting the shot you are looking for.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

the 20 d is a good choice, its much faster then the rebel.
As far as being creative. In part thats what photography is all about. Being creative with lighting, posing, angels, and camera. Not every one can be a sports shooter, not every one can be a wedding or portrait photographer.
now, as far as the coment: As for becoming a sports shooter, I'm still not sure if that's the area I want to get into. That's what I enjoy the most, but I get the impression it's far more easy to make a living at portraiture and weddings.(?) If your only in photography for money, I sugest you stick it IT tech. That coment shows you have more interist in cash then being a good photographer. I dont shoot to live, I live to shoot. Stop Looking at how much you can make and start looking to how you can Create. And, for your information, I make at least 90% of my income shooting sports.
( I know the post I am replying to is the the person who said half of what i just wrote)

[BikerFox]

If your only in photography for money, I sugest you stick it IT tech. That coment shows you have more interist in cash then being a good photographer.

Ok, i'm going to remain calm here, since this is a great thread and I would hate to see it get locked down. I went OUT of my way to say that i was not being negative on your comment. Please re-read the post. IMO yours was insulting. You don't know me, or what I do, or why I do it. I would suggest you remove that from your post and say it in private mail if you don't want to reword it.

People have to make a living FIRST, and THEN they can look at doing what they "love to do." My impression is it's "more difficult" to make money in sports than other types of photography. Sports are also seasonal.

I dont shoot to live, I live to shoot.

Oh give me a break. You can pay the rent without making an income? If so please tell me how.

Stop Looking at how much you can make and start looking to how you can Create.

I can do both, thanks. And please don't proceed to tell me how to live my life.

And, for your information, I make at least 90% of my income shooting sports.

That's great, not everyone can. Not everyone wants to. I would prefer to shoot sports, but again, first I have to make a living doing whatever it is I choose as my "next" profession.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

First, I pay a mortgage, not rent.
Second, if I did not speak some truth, you would not be so defensive. You have to think what nervous I struck, and why it angers you.
By threatening to lock me out of the forum just tells me that again, I have struck a nerve with you, and your way of dealing with it is to block it out. Is the truth that hard to deal with?
Next, this is also a second career for me. The first being a Circus performer. Like photography you do things like that for the art, not for money.
The point I am trying to make is simple. In order to be successful in anything, you have to have feeling for what you do. Once you start doing things just for the money, then you loose site of the real reason you even started. I make a living at photography because I love what I do. Because I love what I do, it pushes me to learn more. Try more, and to be better. I am getting to a point where I can price my work with in reason because people want my work. They want it because of my creativity. Not because of price. Now this can only happen because it goes right back to, I love what I do. Because I love what I do, I constantly strive to be better. My goal right now is when I am 6 feet under, to of been considered a master photographer. Not some guy with a camera that made lots of money.

Your posts only indicates that you are driven by financial issues. Yes we all must make a living. But if you are to make a living with something that you love or enjoy, you first must make sacrifices to get there. I have paid my dues.

[BikerFox]

Well, I tried to be nice :evil:

First, I pay a mortgage, not rent.

Whatever - you know the point, it's an expense.


Second, if I did not speak some truth, you would not be so defensive. You have to think what nervous I struck, and why it angers you.
By threatening to lock me out of the forum just tells me that again, I have struck a nerve with you, and your way of dealing with it is to block it out. Is the truth that hard to deal with?


It's obvious that it is YOU who has had a nerve struck.

I'm choosing to ignore your insults and answer you in private mail so this thread doesn't get locked down...

[nemesis099]

I have to say first off I think what Biker is saying is from a logical point of view he wants to make sure he can make money through his art to be able to live. Also DFK for those just starting it is a little hard to just purchase all the equipment you need so you start small and slowley build up your equipment and your clientel so that you can afford to stop working. I bet before you jumped in you checked to make sure you could make money since you invest a lot of money in equipment.

I know quite a few artists some of which are rather wealthy and some that are not. The ones that already have a foothold in the field have an easy time saying "you should only do what you like" then those that can barely afford the rent and food in the same month.

Also making money off of something is not always something that cheapens what you enjoy in fact it is proven to make it more rewarding. Ever think that most people evaluate how good a picture is by the demand for it or how much it costs.

Saying what I just said I also believe that those that are just motivated by money will not do a good job since they don't care about the product as much and will drop out of the market.

I don't know Biker personally so I don't know what he is motivated by and I think assuming things about some one you don't is a bad thing to do.


Now lets get this back on the topic of pictures and off of the discussion about reasons.

[DKFSTUDIOS]

To All
Let me start of by saying, sending me a message full of cussing and putting down my spelling errors or my 1st carear will only make you look more and more like a wanna be.
2nd. I am sure some of you have been there, and have paid your dues.
The title of Photographer is one that is earned. If your trying to become better then listen to what I am saying. With any carear this is more then the tech or creative aspect to it. Its also a frame of mind. Speaking from some exsperance, when your photography is ruled over by how much you can make, you loose site of being a photographer. When you say i dont think i (can because i am not creative enough) or it's easier (to do portratis and weddings) only shows that you do not want to try hard enough to be the best.
When was the last time any of you went out and created a photograph? Been a while? If so, jump in the car and take a drive. Spend 15 minuts walking around your house or apt. Go for a walk. Take your camera. Be a photographer. Be creative.
Finaly, this is the last post I will do on this subject, if you wish u may contact me privetly.

[BikerFox]

I have to say first off I think what Biker is saying is from a logical point of view he wants to make sure he can make money through his art to be able to live. Also DFK for those just starting it is a little hard to just purchase all the equipment you need so you start small and slowley build up your equipment and your clientel so that you can afford to stop working. I bet before you jumped in you checked to make sure you could make money since you invest a lot of money in equipment.


Thanks nemisis,

Some people are just overly-sensitive I guess. That is, in a nutshell, what I was saying. Sure photography is an art, but it's always a career, otherwise they wouldn't have degrees for it in school.

Glad we were able to ge tthis thread back on track before it got shut down...

Oh and I have nothing else to say to you DKF. I do appreciate your advice, I am just making a choice not to converse with someone who is so rude publically.