Off camera: What to do?

[Olyst]

The more I read here the more confused I am as to what to do next. I have a 430ex. I would like to start experimenting off camera flash.

Options I'm considering:

ETTL Cord: Cheap, but limitating by the lenght
STE-2: Wireless, more expensive
580Ex: More and more expensive, get to have 2 flash (the fun starts!)

STE-2 & second 430-ex : Wallet will suffer, fun with 2 flash off camera.

Is there any other alternative that I should think of? What would you recommend me?

Let's say for a 500$ buget or so .

[Dermit]

For maximum expandability and looking toward the future i would get the 580EX II, or even a used 580 EX/550 EX. The STE2 will cost a couple hundred USD and all it does is trigger a flash with ETTL. Shell out a few more bucks and get a Canon flash that will also trigger a slave, but you have the benefits of having a second flash. Then later on if you need more reliablility in the triggers you can look into some radio triggers. Depending on shooting conditions you may never need radio triggers.

I think I could do 90% of anything I currently shoot and do just fine with a 580EX and a 430EX with the supported hardware, i.e. lightstand, umbrella bracket, camera flash bracket, off shoe cord (for the flash on the bracket).

[Curtis N]

PC cord and hotshoe adapter.
Manual flash.
You'll be in business for around $30.

[robsk8ter247]

ebay slaves?

Cheap and wireless.

Im in the same situation as you though my friend its hard to decide.

[Dermit]

I've always been in the camp of not buying stuff I either will not need later, or I might have to ditch due to unreliability and buy what I should have bought in the first place. It's far better to save for the right stuff the first time. The only good thing I've heard about ebay triggers is that they are cheap, unfortunately that's also the worst thing I hear about them as well :D ...as in they are unreliable.

What Curtis mentions is the cheapest quickest route to off camera flash. But if you have the $500 budget as you mentioned why not go for the 580EX and be wireless right off instead of buying a 30+ foot PC cord to trip over that will end up in a drawer in the near future.

One flash is do-able for a llot of shots, but two gets you in a much better zone.

[Olyst]

I've always been in the camp of not buying stuff I either will not need later, or I might have to ditch due to unreliability and buy what I should have bought in the first place. It's far better to save for the right stuff the first time. The only good thing I've heard about ebay triggers is that they are cheap, unfortunately that's also the worst thing I hear about them as well :D ...as in they are unreliable.

What Curtis mentions is the cheapest quickest route to off camera flash. But if you have the $500 budget as you mentioned why not go for the 580EX and be wireless right off instead of buying a 30+ foot PC cord to trip over that will end up in a drawer in the near future.

One flash is do-able for a llot of shots, but two gets you in a much better zone.

I usually try to be from that camp too! I also remembered when I got the 430, that the guy at the shop told me If I ever want to use multiple flash (I was trying to decide between canon and sigma flash) then canon would be better. Start with 430 and if or when I want I should get the 580...

Curtis being a fixture here, I never underestimate his advices...

[Welby]

Got my cactus triggers yesterday and these things work awesome. No misfires in 10 shots from one end of my house to the other about 15mtrs ( dunno feet ). For the price i reckon there great.

[nadtz]

Lots of people also say canon wireless is unreliable (though not cheap). For $500 Id have myself 2 or 3 cheaper flashes, stands, umbrellas and the ebay triggers. Hopefully those radio popper triggers will come along and and bridge the inexpensive and reliable gap, in the meanwhile for what I do the ebay stuff does fine (if you need 100% reliable then you will go with that works best for you).

Thats not to say canon wireless is useless, but with a $500 budget for a beginner you can get more mileage out of your money. I firmly believe problems you have in TTL mode(s) are easier to understand when you know what you are doing in manual mode to begin with.

[Dermit]

Lots of people also say canon wireless is unreliable (though not cheap).

Thats not to say canon wireless is useless, but with a $500 budget for a beginner you can get more mileage out of your money. I firmly believe problems you have in TTL mode(s) are easier to understand when you know what you are doing in manual mode to begin with.

This comes down to how and what you intend on shooting. Canon wireless is very reliable in the right conditions. The conditions are easy to figure out and you get a feel for when they won't work as reliable. In a dimly lit reception hall I get my Canon wireless ETTL to fire 95% of the time. I consider that reliable, others may not. Even in open shade outdoors I get them to fire reliably. But I know that in bright outdoor conditions like we get a LOT of out here in Az that there comes a point where it just isn't happening.

For the dynamic nature of subject to flash distance that exists at a wedding reception I honetly believe the ETTL system will get you a better keep rate than full manual. Think about shooting subjects on the dance floor where they often times traverse the whole length and width of the floor in a relatively short time frame. It is simply not practical to make adjustments to either camera or lights as they move around as would be required with a manual flash setup. Not impossible, but not very practical. But, in ETTL if I know the FEC I need to dial in, if any, for shooting a subject then it does not matter where they move to, the ETTL will deliver the right power and adjust when needed as the subject to light distance changes.

So if you do not think you will need to use you flashes for candid type shooting where subjects are moving about then, yes, your money is better spent on much less expensive non-Canon non-ETTL systems and dialing everything in manually. Don't get me wrong, if I have a consitant subject distance to flash I love and prefer manual flash and my PWs are a great, reliable way to control the triggering. I had an outdoor on location family portrait session yesterday where I only used manual and my PWs and it worked great.

But going back to what I was talking about earlier about not buying stuff I won't need later, or buying the wrong stuff and having to buy the right stuff later... if you think you will need the ability of a flash to dynamically meter itself to deliver the right power as a scene changes (subject to flash distance) then go with Canon. You will have ETTL and the ability to switch to full manual. If you go with only manual non-ETTL/Canon and you do start shooting a lot of candid action shots you may end up having to buy extra gear later to get the ETTL system if you keeper rate is simply too low.

It's all about intent of use. For me, I love the flexibility of being able to do both.

[bobbyz]

PC cord and hotshoe adapter.
Manual flash.
You'll be in business for around $30.

I agree.

You can also use cheap eBay triggers for more than 1 flash situations.

[nadtz]

This comes down to how and what you intend on shooting.

Agreed, as I said before. The thing is how many beginners know exactly what they intend to shoot once they get out of snapshot mode (and of the ones who think they do, how many add to that)? Learning light manually then moving to a TTL system (starting with one light and working from there) will give anyone the same resultant knowledge assuming they take the time to learn. Lots of the questions posted on this forum show that TTL reliance, or lack of lighting skills lead to many of the posts, what I was saying wasnt for someone competant, as I said 'for beginners'

[Dermit]

Agreed, as I said before. The thing is how many beginners know exactly what they intend to shoot once they get out of snapshot mode (and of the ones who think they do, how many add to that)? Learning light manually then moving to a TTL system (starting with one light and working from there) will give anyone the same resultant knowledge assuming they take the time to learn. Lots of the questions posted on this forum show that TTL reliance, or lack of lighting skills lead to many of the posts, what I was saying wasnt for someone competant, as I said 'for beginners'

I agree and understand what you are saying. My post was more to give insight as to what ETTL vs manual would mean to anyone who might not know the pros/cons and when/why to use each so no one has to go in to a system totaly blind. And my point was that if you even have a small inkling of an idea that you would ever want to use ETTL (for the reasons given) you might seriously consider buying into the system early because you can and should use lights in full manual to really learn how it all works like you said. For some, like myself, there are times when I benefit from all my flashes being able to use ETTL. If I had bought into a cheaper non-ETTL system originally those flashes would now be unused and I would have had to spend more to get into the ETTL system later.

Trying to learn flash with ETTL can be like trying to hit a moving target. It can seemingly be very unpredictable until you understand how it works. Very much the same way a light meter in your camera can deliver unpredictable exposures.

For anyone, beginer, or more experienced, the best way to advance your photography exposure-wise, lighting-wise, is to absolutely understand what the camera and what the flashes are doing whenever you use them in auto mode. If you don't know how these systems work you will not know how to counteract them when they are fooled.

As nadtz mentioned, sometimes the best way to learn is to use full manual and play with the settings. This will at first potentially introduce a lot of poorly exposed, poorly lit images. But forcing yourself to figure out how to counteract what is going wrong is an important lesson to learn. This holds true for both the camera and your flash(es).

[shutterfiend]

There's a DIY ETTL cord extender on the internet. If I can find it again I'll post.

[hastur]

If you get the ETTL cord you can get your flash off the camera and run it manually or with ETTL. If you need more distance, cut it, put a couple of network connectors on the ends, and add a CAT-5 jumper. You can then move it quite a distance from the camera and still have ETTL. Get comfortable with a single off camera flash. If you add a second flash, get a 580 and put it on the cord and run your 430 with the Canon wireless ETTL system. This gets you two lights, off camera, with the least expense, or about the same as 2 X 430 + 1 X ST-E2 and gets you some more flash power.

There is a cord extension thread on this board, http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123662
I couldn't solder the DIN connectors, so I went with the network connectors.

Some thoughts,

Rob

[Olyst]

Thanks all for the great info. I have not made my mind yet, but 1 thing I need to figure out is if I want to learn the manul way by using manual setting or If I'm willing to put in the Wireless ETTL technology to start with. I'm getting there... I guess the problem with me is that I want to touch to all aspect of the photography...not knowing if this is what I really want and pursue in that route or if the on the camera shoe flash would be sufficient for my needs...

On a side note... I think a 5 in 1 reflector could be fun to play with also!... so many things to experiment with!

Thanks again!

[Olyst]

If you need more distance, cut it, put a couple of network connectors on the ends, and add a CAT-5 jumper.

Yeah, but you need the tools to do so...I do, but not for everyone. I think I can manage the din connection and soldering easily. Will see If I want to go that route or not...

Thanks

[Nitrogen]

580ex II is a good investment, you'll get 2 flashes to work with. The 580ex II has the ability to control 3 groups vs. the ST-E2 which only can control 2. You'll probably want to go this route as its opens up more options for your future upgrades and is a more powerful flash unit.

After I got my first 430 I went out and got the ST-E2. Just this past month I went and got 2 more 430s. I have yet to run into a problem with these not firing. But there is still snow on the ground and I haven't gotten to test drive them outside in the sun. I was surprised to find that with my ST-E2 equipped, my 430s even fired with shoot through umbrellas. This was done inside, at a range of 6 feet. I most likely will end up getting a 580 later on.

Either route you take, I'm sure your going to love it.

[hastur]

Yeah, but you need the tools to do so...I do, but not for everyone. I think I can manage the din connection and soldering easily. Will see If I want to go that route or not...

Thanks

I'm pretty good with a soldering iron, but those DIN plugs were too small for me, I tried.

The only tools I used were a knife, a set of wire cutters and a smallish screwdriver. Cut the cable, strip the outer jacket back about 1/2" with the knife and punch the wires down into their connectors with the screwdriver one at a time. Put the cover back on the jack. Done.
The connectors cut through the insulation on the wires, so you don't need to strip them.

Have Fun

Rob

[bomzai]

I was researching exactly same subject. I had 430EX that I used as my on-camera flash (with bouncers, walls, ceilings, reflectors and what not). Worked well, but it's on-camera :-| and only one flash.

Then I bought used 550EX to have 2 flashes and ETTL goodness. Worked even better, but there're problems:
- 550EX is still tied to camera (hence all the juggling with light reflection of light coming off the top of the camera is still here) when you want to use 2 lights
- If you want 550 to just control 430 off camera, there's a problem of 550 still firing white light communication signal which sure enough gets reflected in your subject's eyes
- If you use 550 just as a controller, you feel sorry that you're wasting such a nice flash unit :lol:

ST-E2 just plain sucks to my mind (2 groups, very small range, no LCD and $200 as a price for all that!). Right now used 550EX is a no brainer replacement to it (almost same price but a TON more versatility plus much longer range (due to white light communication in addition to IR)).

So what else is out there? Pocket Wizards II? No, thank you. $200 per unit for just a trigger?!

Radio Poppers are yet to come out :(. With full version still at $200 per device and juniors not even in a prototype stage yet.

Ebay triggers. Didn't want to go that route, which is dead-end in many ways.

So the only alternative which I found (and used) are EL-Skyports from Elinchrom. You get a SET (transmitter and receiver) for $185. And additional receivers are at $100 (still steep but twice cheaper than PW). You'll need a shoe adapter for it too ($20 from flashzebra.com).

So what I got for these $205:
- two off camera lights
- kept ETTL stuff
- reliable triggering from Very Long range
- expandable trigger system (these are pro-level triggers, so can get as fancy as your wallet allows) - 4 groups, multiple channels etc.

What you miss:
- ability to control flash power from your camera (other than automatic ETTL)

[Dermit]

Then I bought used 550EX to have 2 flashes and ETTL goodness. Worked even better, but there're problems:
- 550EX is still tied to camera (hence all the juggling with light reflection of light coming off the top of the camera is still here) when you want to use 2 lights
- If you want 550 to just control 430 off camera, there's a problem of 550 still firing white light communication signal which sure enough gets reflected in your subject's eyes
- If you use 550 just as a controller, you feel sorry that you're wasting such a nice flash unit :lol:


-Yes, your 550 that is still on camera should not be a problem. For most shots that's exactly where you want your fill to come from. You may have to turn it down quite a bit and I also like to bounce mine off an attached card, but I do not see this as a problem.

-For the 550 to just trigger a slave and not add anything to the subject I just point the on camera flash toward the slave, this way it communicates better and has little if any effect on the subject at all.

-Even when I use one of my flashes as just a controller/master I do not feel it is a waste because there are many other times when I use it for flash. It actually makes me feel better about it since it can do more than one task, versatility is a good thing.

I bought into the Pocket Wizard system for a few reasons. Number one was it was the most talked about and highly regarded system I was hearing about at the time I bought them. I know, and have experienced, shooting with someone who was using other triggers and I could see the unreliability in them. Not always firing, and sometimes double firing mainly due to static which we have an abundance of here in the dry Az desert. In the past I have spent too much money buying things that don't work simply to have to buy the good stuff. So I went right for the good stuff. if I had to do it over again the Skyports would factor in to my decision as I have heard good about them and they are less expensive.

[Nitrogen]

ST-E2 just plain sucks to my mind (2 groups, very small range, no LCD and $200 as a price for all that!).

I haven't shot portraits further than 15 feet so its well in the effective range.

Thank god it doesn't have an LCD on it. Its not that big, people would be complaining about is the the size of the screen!

If I need to control more than 2 groups, I'll go out and get a 580ex II for my arsenal. More flashes woohoo!

As for the price, Canon stuff isn't cheap. But it works as it is suppose to.

When I decide to invest the money into some studio strobes. Then definitely I'm going with some wireless transmitter of some sort.

I love my ST-E2. Works great for me.

[bomzai]

I love my ST-E2. Works great for me.

I apologize for being so harsh on ST-E2. :oops: I agree with you that it pretty much does what it supposed to do. I am just ticked off by its price. Seriously it should not cost more than $120, so most people would buy it. :D

[Nitrogen]

Seriously it should not cost more than $120, so most people would buy it. :D

I second that! Accessories from Canon are always crazy expensive. :(