RAW and white balance

[Chazs]

So I was taking pictures at a brand new concert hall today amongst several "professional" photographers. We were all discussing blown-out highlights, exposure settings, lens settings, etc. One chap with several Nikons questioned about what white balance a colleague of his was using on his Sony (I think) 14 megapixel camera. (There was very little lighting in the hall, and odd colors from what there was). The Sony chap says he just keeps it on auto white balance, and I chime in with "I'm shooting RAW and will worry about the color temperature later."

Mr Nikon says, "Well, that isn't entirely correct."

Am I missing something here? Is it NOT possible to gain proper white balance from a RAW image compared to setting the white balance on the spot with a white or gray card?

[Malaxos1]

Auto WB works great on my 20D for the most part. Unless I am using my hot lights, I will set it to auto. I have been shooting RAW a lot latley and you can select what color temprature or one of the presets, like cloudy, daylight, flash, ect... Also in Photoshop CS there is a white balance dropper that you can point to something that should be white and your colors will all come together. I used to use a gray card and a light meter, but not anymore as shooting in RAW will allow for some major adjustments. With just my own metering in camera I used to be very close and will do some minute levels adjustments. Now in RAW I can adjust the actual exposure slightly. This gives me a better, sharper image without some degrading you get when adjusting a JPEG. I am sold on RAW. I used to do weddings in JPEG and was very happy, but now that I am hooked on RAW I went out and got a 40gb portable storage unit so that I can shoot a complete wedding in RAW...Dean

[Nic]

Sony does not make a 14MPx camera (I think - pretty sure as a matter of fact) - Maybe it was a Kodak.

[robertwgross]

... "I'm shooting RAW and will worry about the color temperature later."

Mr Nikon says, "Well, that isn't entirely correct."

Am I missing something here? Is it NOT possible to gain proper white balance from a RAW image compared to setting the white balance on the spot with a white or gray card?

You are entitled to shoot RAW and worry about color temperature later. In that respect, Mr. Nikon's statement is not exactly true.

However, his statement is somewhat true in that it might be easily possible to get a good white balance in the computer, so to speak, but it might not be a totally accurate white balance to what was actually there. On the computer, you will be white balancing either to what the editor thinks is untinted white, which may not be accurate to the real scene, or you may be white balancing to what your memory tells you is untinted white, which might not be accurate either. White is in the eye of the beholder.

---Bob Gross---

[Steven M. Anthony]

I'm not sure, from a physical sense, that white is in the eye of the beholder. But it is often difficult to say what is white. Is the snow in Bryce canyon white--or when the sun is reflecting off the hoodoos is it really a bit orange? Is the lead guitarist's white shirt still white when the blue and red lights are on him?

Are you trying to capture reality? If so, why are you using a medium that squishes everything into two dimensions...?

I view white balance like sugar in my coffee--I sweeten to taste.

[Chazs]

Maybe it was a Kodak

Nic. You're right. He WAS usign a Kodak, and had a few other bodies in his bag. I just forgot which one was on the tripod. :oops: (Boy, full frame 14MP sure gives a lot more detail than 6.3MP. :( )

I sweeten to taste.
Steven, I do too. Lately though it's been sweet on the computer, but salty from the printer. Time to replace the S820D printer with an i9900.

[KennyG]

I shoot 100% RAW and sometimes take a white balance shot, using an ExpoDisc, for reference. It is taken as the first shot on the CF card and using C1 can be applied to all shots from that card.

I use the method mainly for indoor or artificially light subjects. Otherwise, I find the 1 series bodies have good AWB and I can simply let C1 pick up the setting from the image file.

[edsarkiss]

when you're shooting RAW, the white balance (or color temperature) of each exposure serves only as a hint to the processing software as to where it should color correct as a starting point.

the WB setting may save you some time when converting RAW->TIFF (or JPEG) if the camera chose "correctly", but it does not change the "color" of the RAW file as it would if you were shooting JPEGs.

you're right in what you said. keep on truckin'!

oh ... and bobbygross said some good stuff too -- you can either use a greycard to get the technically, mathematically perfect white balance, or WB for the "mood". imagine a string quartet lit by some very warm tungsten or even filtered red/orange light. if you set the WB with a greycard, the result will be nothing like the situation actually was in terms of color/lighting mood.

[PacAce]

oh ... and bobbygross said some good stuff too -- you can either use a greycard to get the technically, mathematically perfect white balance, or WB for the "mood". imagine a string quartet lit by some very warm tungsten or even filtered red/orange light. if you set the WB with a greycard, the result will be nothing like the situation actually was in terms of color/lighting mood.

My sentiments exactly! Accurate white balance is not always desireable, especially when trying to capture the mood created by lighting.

Having said that, I will add, this. If you are going to worry about WB during processing, then setting the WB on the camera to AWB might make it easier to get the WB the way you want it. But, if you DO want true white balance, then the only way to achieve that is by having a neutral gray or white object in at least one of the shots as a reference (for custom white balance setting or for use in PS).

[CyberDyneSystems]

You are correct in your thought that by shooting RAW no white balance is set in camera,.. and you can adjust at will durig post processing.

BUT, as Bob said.. that does not mean you will actually get "correct" white balance when you post process UNLESS you have taken a photo of a white card on site and have it as a reference. In which case you can apply the "reference" to all your images in PP.


Of course with concert events.. this is all a bit moot in most instances,. as the lighting is "prone to change" during an event.. thus a white card reading is made useless every time the lighting cue changes... In a theatrical event that can be easily as many as 200 times during the course of the event...

[robertwgross]

I'm not sure, from a physical sense, that white is in the eye of the beholder. But it is often difficult to say what is white. Is the snow in Bryce canyon white--or when the sun is reflecting off the hoodoos is it really a bit orange?

Exactly my point.

---Bob Gross---

[Nic]

Don't get so carried away by Kodak's 14Mpx - there's a review - either Stene's or DPReview which is not at all flattering for Kodak - MPx is NOT the ultimate criterium.

I prefer my 20D and MkII.

[photofinish]

I have a stupid question: when you want to set custom white balance indoors, do you use a flash to illuminate the white card?

[dhbailey]

Concerning white balance, I have a question:

In my music studio, things have an orange-ish hue because I use incandescent lighting. When I shoot a picture using AWB, the pictures come out with the orange-ish hue, in other words, a faithful representation of what my eye sees.

When I shoot a white card or a 20%-grey card and then set the white-balance according to either one, the result is the same -- the white paper of the music book on my stand is white, the orange-ish hue is gone, everything looks just like it would look under sunshine.

Which is the more accurate picture? I guess it depends on whether I am trying to record something that is happening (then I would use AWB to capture just what the camera and my eyes see) or if I am trying to capture a great picture, in which case the manually-set white balance might give a better result.

What do most of you other folks here do in such a situation?

[robertwgross]

I have a stupid question: when you want to set custom white balance indoors, do you use a flash to illuminate the white card?

Yes, but only if flash is your illumination for the real shot.

You could do your scene with tungsten light or fluorescent light or anything else. You can even try weird stuff by setting the custom white balance with one light and then shooting the real shot with another light, but I don't recommend that for accuracy.

---Bob Gross---

[Marc Colemont]

I'm coming from lighting for concerts and TV.
I started using Canon 10D (second hand) to make shots of setups of concerts and TV.
You can safely set your white balance to either 3200 or 5600 depending on how they setup the show. Just ask the lightopertor or LD on a concert what they use as base 3200K or 5600K.
Either way if they are taping with video cameras they do two things:
- the followspots with or without a warm filter to go from 5600 to 3200.
- or the tungstenlights with our without cold filter to go from 3200 to 5600.