terrorist or paedophile?

[daveftm]

isnt that what we are out in public with our cameras??

good article on the BBC website here....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7351252.stm

[digirebelva]

That sometimes seems to be the prevailing attitude here in the states as well. I havent had the honor of being questioned yet, but I am sure it will happen..Fun Stuff

[JFusion]

Sucks to be in a park shooting my kids and seeing a group of kids playing or some kid doing something funny cute and being afraid to take a photo. Even if someone doesn't say something sometimes the looks are enough.

[photoguy6405]

A license for the camera? Is this something common in Britain?

Anyway, I agree it's sad that it's come to the point that one has to feel intimidated when taking perfectly innocent shots. Of course there are people in the world with bad intentions, but those people are also relatively rare in numbers when compared with the numbers of people who are just fine.

I was glad to see the guy in question get an apology, but if it were me I'd have asked for an apology from the officer who overstepped his authority, also. Don't know if I'd have gotten it, but I'd have asked for it.

[daveftm]

A license for the camera? Is this something common in Britain?

Anyway, I agree it's sad that it's come to the point that one has to feel intimidated when taking perfectly innocent shots. Of course there are people in the world with bad intentions, but those people are also relatively rare in numbers when compared with the numbers of people who are just fine.

I was glad to see the guy in question get an apology, but if it were me I'd have asked for an apology from the officer who overstepped his authority, also. Don't know if I'd have gotten it, but I'd have asked for it.


nope. the licence request from the officer was garbage.. you need no such thing.

[Kittygraphix]

Sucks to be in a park shooting my kids and seeing a group of kids playing or some kid doing something funny cute and being afraid to take a photo. Even if someone doesn't say something sometimes the looks are enough.


I think this problem is stereotypically leaned more towards men.....sorry guys but I don't get this kind of reaction from strangers. And I'm not the tradition looking female. I don't look non-female or anything but I have a full sleeve of tattoos and many other tattoos that show and still when I'm out with my camera at City Park or the Zoo or a concert or just out in the street and people with kids see me with my camera, they usually approach me and ask me to take their kids' picture and email it to them.

Maybe all of you guys should start wearing wigs and dresses when you want to go out for a shoot, that way the general public will be less intimidated by you!

[photoguy6405]

I think this problem is stereotypically leaned more towards men.....sorry guys but I don't get this kind of reaction from strangers. And I'm not the tradition looking female. I don't look non-female or anything but I have a full sleeve of tattoos and many other tattoos that show and still when I'm out with my camera at City Park or the Zoo or a concert or just out in the street and people with kids see me with my camera, they usually approach me and ask me to take their kids' picture and email it to them.

Maybe all of you guys should start wearing wigs and dresses when you want to go out for a shoot, that way the general public will be less intimidated by you!

I think you're most likely right.

[breal101]

Maybe we need to start a grassroots internet campaign with the slogan:

WTF, I'm just a guy with a camera!

A million photographer march might work but then we would have to get off our butts.

[cdifoto]

I don't get harassed much either. Usually interested parties will ask what I'm up to, if I'm shooting for the paper, etc but so far I've never been "interrogated" as if suspected of criminal activity. I don't go to random parks and just start snapping photos though either. I tend to have a dedicated and obvious purpose to my photography.

[Mama Tried]

My Girlfriend has my camera while im in Springfield on business and she said yesterday she shot pictures in downtown Orlando without anyone saying anything. Im like WTF? I dont go there due to being harassed even with my little Nikon Point and shoot.

[Box Brownie]

On a maybe related note I posted over here http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5348816&postcount=2920

:)

[S.Horton]

They do treat you differently with big gear vs. P&S or phones.

You get noticed.

[estisdal]

Why limit youself in this day and age? I say go ahead and be both!

[Molnies]

I've never had any problem, sure people move out of my way and asks what newspaper I work for etc but I've never had any bad comments or problems.
Maybe it's that Sweden is more laid back, or maybe it's because I'm young (22) I don't know, but I fear that I will soon be looked upon as the people in the article.

The only thing I can say is, learn your rights (they are different in every country, so be sure to not just read stuff online that might not be directed towards where you live) and stand up for your own right.

[daveftm]

They do treat you differently with big gear vs. P&S or phones.

You get noticed.

which is the infuriating thing. now if i *was* a terrorist or paedophile, am I likely to draw attention to myself with a 4 foot lens, and a camera like a tank - or would I use a small dicreet p&s?
:lol:

[Longwatcher]

I have been asked a few times what I was doing at a local park, I tell them and they go away. The usual answer is I am testing out some new equipment I bought or trying out a new technique I learned. They pretty much ignore me lately as I think they recognize me by now.

[illm4k3uscr3am]

I shoot the picture and ask questions later. If I get arrested and or questioned by the cops I will refer them to my lawyer. In a public venue one should not be too afraid, now if toy are wearing all black and act hardcore suspicious than I would more than likely call the cops. The cops usually can make the judgment call, so I let them do their job and what I pay them to do. I have never once called the police on someone for photographing, although I did sue someone for taking my picture non stop after telling them not too, but that was more for spite.

[Molnies]

You sued someone for taking your photograph? How did that work, is it illegal in the states to photograph other people after they've asked you not to?

[Kruzkal]

The UK is totally confused...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQrDK9YHas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKl2sEN4yNM

In the end it all comes down to knowing your rights as a photographer (UK):

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/ukpr.php

[daveftm]

The UK is totally confused...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQrDK9YHas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKl2sEN4yNM

In the end it all comes down to knowing your rights as a photographer (UK):

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/ukpr.php

was just about to post this :) I have printed the PDF, am going to laminate it and its going into my kit bag. Hopefully I will never need it, but its going in there just in case....

[Pete-eos]

Can't view youtube at work so it may be one of those videos but this is worth a watch if it isn't...

http://current.com/items/88856223_you_can_t_picture_this

[Kittygraphix]

USA Photographers Rights
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

"As the flyer states, there are not very many legal restrictions on what can be photographed when in public view. Most attempts at restricting photography are done by lower-level security and law enforcement officials acting way beyond their authority. Note that neither the Patriot Act nor the Homeland Security Act have any provisions that restrict photography. Similarly, some businesses have a history of abusing the rights of photographers under the guise of protecting their trade secrets. These claims are almost always meritless because entities are required to keep trade secrets from public view if they want to protect them"

Best advised to print out and lamenate to keep in your camera bag for quick reference. Good advice, Daveftm!

[condyk]

Maybe we should have a poll to check out have many terrorist, paedophile and regular photographers we have here at POTN and then we can assess the extent of the problem :-)

I never get stopped but then I don't take shots of other people's children or knowingly on private property. I think most of this stuff is paranoid.

[digirebelva]

Maybe we should have a poll to check out have many terrorist, paedophile and regular photographers we have here at POTN and then we can assess the extent of the problem :-)

Just make sure the poll includes a box for both, some folks might identify with both:lol:

Also a fill in, for those that we think might be one..:rolleyes:

[sidx001]

The other day I'm out at Table Rock Lake shooting the Dam and the wide open spillways. A young lady is there getting her senior pics taken. I've the 70-200 on so I start shooting too! After they were done, I walked over, introduced myself and offered to email some of the pics I took. They were surprised at my offer and thanked me. 10 minutes later I was yelled at by a man for taking pictures of his cute daughter while she was sitting in the stroller laughing...go figure!

[Stocky]

Well since you asked, I do consider anyone I see taking my picture to be a terrorist, and they will get detained on sight. I guess it depends where you live.

[Kittygraphix]

The other day I'm out at Table Rock Lake shooting the Dam and the wide open spillways. A young lady is there getting her senior pics taken. I've the 70-200 on so I start shooting too! After they were done, I walked over, introduced myself and offered to email some of the pics I took. They were surprised at my offer and thanked me. 10 minutes later I was yelled at by a man for taking pictures of his cute daughter while she was sitting in the stroller laughing...go figure!

I'm surprised the photographer that was taking the senior pictures of that young lady didn't yell at you! haha
Next time try the wig and dress, it seems parents are less intimidated by strange women snapping pictures of their kids :lol:

Although yes this goes to show you the difference between people and their ideas of photographers, good post!

[tjmaroney]

Is anyone aware of a concise list of Canadian photographers' rights, as has been posted for UK and US togs? thanks

to add to the thread - i've yet to be stopped/questioned by anyone while out shooting (yet). perhaps i'm just lucky, so far.

cheers,

T.J.

[Kittygraphix]

Is anyone aware of a concise list of Canadian photographers' rights, as has been posted for UK and US togs? thanks

to add to the thread - i've yet to be stopped/questioned by anyone while out shooting (yet). perhaps i'm just lucky, so far.

cheers,

T.J.


Found this on Canada
http://www.zvulony.com/photograph_rights.html

[sidx001]

I'm surprised the photographer that was taking the senior pictures of that young lady didn't yell at you! haha
Next time try the wig and dress, it seems parents are less intimidated by strange women snapping pictures of their kids :lol:

Although yes this goes to show you the difference between people and their ideas of photographers, good post!

<grin> nah, the photog was a young kid with a little fuji P&S. I think he was more surprised than anything else. The mother ended up buying 2 16x20 prints from me!

[tjmaroney]

Found this on Canada
http://www.zvulony.com/photograph_rights.html

thanks, Kat!

cheers,

T.J.

[Kittygraphix]

<grin> nah, the photog was a young kid with a little fuji P&S. I think he was more surprised than anything else. The mother ended up buying 2 16x20 prints from me!


Haha! Go YOU! That's awesome!

[exile]

Well since you asked, I do consider anyone I see taking my picture to be a terrorist, and they will get detained on sight. I guess it depends where you live.

What, the freedom of the press doesn't apply in Iraq? :rolleyes:

[ggt1_02]

Well since you asked, I do consider anyone I see taking my picture to be a terrorist, and they will get detained on sight. I guess it depends where you live.

Same thing in Afghanistan.:rolleyes: I had never seen so many shepherds with cell phones!

[Steve Parr]

Best advised to print out and lamenate to keep in your camera bag for quick reference. Good advice, Daveftm!

You're kidding, right?

Put yourself in the position of, say, a policeman.

You see someone with a DSLR and, say, something like a 100-400mm; big white lens. For whatever reason, you decide to confront the person.

Are you honestly going to be swayed by something that someone printed out from the internet?

I'd love to know how many people have pulled that out of their bag, as if it means anything, only to be laughed at...

[hard12find]

There are a couple of cases here in Washington State where municipalities have had to pay for violating photographers civil rights. I say about time.

If questioned by Police if you are respectful and inform the officer of your rights, possibly backed with the printed BOR, then yes they should be swayed. If not he should be reported or sued. Thats how we educate people.

Jim

[bildeb0rg]

After snapping a (howling) toddler at a rugby match and showing the mother the pic, she asked if I did weddings too as she was getting married soon.
Does this make me a both ???

[Steve Parr]

There are a couple of cases here in Washington State where municipalities have had to pay for violating photographers civil rights. I say about time.

If questioned by Police if you are respectful and inform the officer of your rights, possibly backed with the printed BOR, then yes they should be swayed. If not he should be reported or sued. Thats how we educate people.

Jim

Any time you start "informing" a cop of anything, you've become confrontational; the only question is to what degree. I don't know a lot of situations where that has had an overly positive outcome for the person who was approached by the cop.

Reporting the cop, if you truly believe he is out of line, is an acceptable way to go. However, don't expect to ever be told the outcome of that report. Suing the cop or even the city, to me, is kinda' silly. What would you sue for?

As for the "Photographer's Bill Of Rights", again, I think it would be a big mistake to use that as a means of "informing" the cop of what your rights are. I think it would escalate a situation which, otherwise, wouldn't have escalated.

No cop worth his salt is going to put any validity to something that you pull out of your pocket while you exclaim "But I got this on the internet!!!"

[digirebelva]

No cop worth his salt is going to put any validity to something that you pull out of your pocket while you exclaim "But I got this on the internet!!!"

Hey it worked for the people on Craigslist:D

[daveftm]

You're kidding, right?

Put yourself in the position of, say, a policeman.

You see someone with a DSLR and, say, something like a 100-400mm; big white lens. For whatever reason, you decide to confront the person.

Are you honestly going to be swayed by something that someone printed out from the internet?

I'd love to know how many people have pulled that out of their bag, as if it means anything, only to be laughed at...

Have you seen the Youtube videos posted on this thread? The authorities are as much in the dark in the UK as anyone. As soon as they are asked under which law they are asking you to stop taking pictures, they begin to hesitate. Having a guide FOR MY USE to my rights in my bag, for when I'm stopped can only be a help to me.

Its not as if I'm going to start leafleting the local police when I'm stopped....

[Kittygraphix]

Any time you start "informing" a cop of anything, you've become confrontational; the only question is to what degree. I don't know a lot of situations where that has had an overly positive outcome for the person who was approached by the cop.

Reporting the cop, if you truly believe he is out of line, is an acceptable way to go. However, don't expect to ever be told the outcome of that report. Suing the cop or even the city, to me, is kinda' silly. What would you sue for?

As for the "Photographer's Bill Of Rights", again, I think it would be a big mistake to use that as a means of "informing" the cop of what your rights are. I think it would escalate a situation which, otherwise, wouldn't have escalated.

No cop worth his salt is going to put any validity to something that you pull out of your pocket while you exclaim "But I got this on the internet!!!"


I beg to differ with this entire statement. I was faced with TONS of situations after Hurrican Katrina by both police and military in New Orleans. I did not have the Photographer BOR with me however I did know my rights and spoke with the military and police about them when stopped from taking pictures. If you go about something in a polite and respectful way to ANYONE you will be surprised just how much you can "sway" them.

The NOPD and military stationed in New Orleans after the storm were definately worth their salt. As far as stating "But I got this on the internet!" that would be a silly thing to say and left to teenagers and children who are not experienced enough on how to speak to adults and with conviction, however something more along that lines of "Yes sir, I understand where you may have some concerns of me shooting this but if I could just speak with you briefly about this maybe you can see where I'm justified here." may help to not escalate the situation and perhaps as is was my case actually get a military guide:)

[Steve Parr]

Have you seen the Youtube videos posted on this thread? The authorities are as much in the dark in the UK as anyone. As soon as they are asked under which law they are asking you to stop taking pictures, they begin to hesitate. Having a guide FOR MY USE to my rights in my bag, for when I'm stopped can only be a help to me.

Its not as if I'm going to start leafleting the local police when I'm stopped....

I'm not saying that the cops are right. However, I am saying that the wrong reaction from the photographer can quickly make the reason he was stopped in the first place secondary.

I've seen, first hand, poor decisions made by photographers when confronted and, in every single case, I'm sure the photographer ended up wishing he'd conducted himself a bit differently...

[Steve Parr]

The NOPD and military stationed in New Orleans after the storm were definately worth their salt. As far as stating "But I got this on the internet!" that would be a silly thing to say and left to teenagers and children who are not experienced enough on how to speak to adults and with conviction, however something more along that lines of "Yes sir, I understand where you may have some concerns of me shooting this but if I could just speak with you briefly about this maybe you can see where I'm justified here." may help to not escalate the situation and perhaps as is was my case actually get a military guide

I agree with that.

Unfortunately, as soon as the cop asks "Where'd you get that", and you say "I got it on the internet", it becomes dismissable. If a photographer says anything else ("I got it from an attorney", for instance), he's lying.

I've watched when photographers have been confronted, and you'd probably be amazed how many people who aren't teenagers and children will start screaming about their rights. And, yes, one guy even pulled the BOR out of his camera bag. It was completely dismissed, and rightly so I think, by the cop. For whatever reason, some people they think they can "shut down" the cop. Well, that rarely happens.

Your situation, especially considering you had a military guide, appears to be far different than what we're discussing here...

[AdamJL]

Why limit youself in this day and age? I say go ahead and be both!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Kittygraphix]

I agree with that.

Your situation, especially considering you had a military guide, appears to be far different than what we're discussing here...


Didn't get the military guide until after I was polite and discussed the situation with them when they tried to stop me from shooting pictures.

My point is that when you are confronted by reasonable people and you act reasonably, the outcome is better. When you react like a jackass, you will be treated as such and rightfully so.

[AdamJL]

I agree with that.

Unfortunately, as soon as the cop asks "Where'd you get that", and you say "I got it on the internet", it becomes dismissable. If a photographer says anything else ("I got it from an attorney", for instance), he's lying.

I've watched when photographers have been confronted, and you'd probably be amazed how many people who aren't teenagers and children will start screaming about their rights. And, yes, one guy even pulled the BOR out of his camera bag. It was completely dismissed, and rightly so I think, by the cop. For whatever reason, some people they think they can "shut down" the cop. Well, that rarely happens.

Your situation, especially considering you had a military guide, appears to be far different than what we're discussing here...

By etension, you are questioning the validity of anything that comes from the internet. So because it comes from the net, it's "dismissable".
Riiight.

/closes online banking account

[daveftm]

By etension, you are questioning the validity of anything that comes from the internet. So because it comes from the net, it's "dismissable".
Riiight.

/closes online banking account

exactly. Yeah I got it from the internet... but its quoting the British Law in black and white. feel free to argue with it. :D

besides, when I do eventually get stopped I just *know* I'm going to scurry off with my tail between my legs and not cause "a scene". I'm british after all.... :D:D:D

[CyberDyneSystems]

Everything I say is a lie,..

Just noting the irony that the person saying that everything on the internet is invalid is saying it on the internet .. :)

Being prepared in some way to know your rights does not infer you are an idiot and seeking confrontation.

the two issues of having written information to provide or to refresh your own memory vs. the issue of how to behave in public, society and with figures of authority are hardly related.
Knowing and having evidence of your rights does not correlate to being antisocial.
Nor does not infer revolutionary or anti authoritarian thinking.

Without the knowledge for ones own self, then clearly you are in no position at all to discuss anything with the authorities should the need arise. It never hurts to be prepared with education.

Having paperwork to back up your understanding is even better.
One could however get a better source, in the form of local law, as opposed to this general bill of rights. Again , though, this BOR could not hurt, only ones own attitude can.

[Kittygraphix]

By etension, you are questioning the validity of anything that comes from the internet. So because it comes from the net, it's "dismissable".
Riiight.

/closes online banking account


tehehehehe

I think what Steve is referring to is that when people say they read about something off the internet that immediately it's made up or misconstrude. Like for instance proof of alien life, proof of Bigfoot, loose weight and still eat like a fat pig, etc

BUT here it is....finally proof that BIGFOOT exists! Now that you've seen it on the internet you can believe it!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/kittygraphix/Personal/Myspace%20Stuff/Animals/bigfoot_picture_behind_tree_0122-13.jpg

But in the particular case that we are discussing here it is based on facts that are written as law, not on internet stories or chain emails. The printed document is something that should be used as reference and NOT to throw in someone's face, the printed documents reference laws and statutes that give us our rights as photographers.

[Steve Parr]

Didn't get the military guide until after I was polite and discussed the situation with them when they tried to stop me from shooting pictures.

My point is that when you are confronted by reasonable people and you act reasonably, the outcome is better. When you react like a jackass, you will be treated as such and rightfully so.

And my point is that the guy I saw with the so-called "Bill Of Rights" made the assumption, much to his great despair, that it would stop the cop in his tracks. The manner in which the photographer presented it made the fact that he was shooting almost a secondary issue.

And the cop couldn't have cared less about the BOR the guy pulled out. The guy was being a complete idiot, and the cop reacted accordingly. Sadly, though, I don't think the photographer is in an exclusive club. Judging by many of the comments I've read on this topic on POTN, he'd have plenty of company...

[Steve Parr]

By etension, you are questioning the validity of anything that comes from the internet. So because it comes from the net, it's "dismissable".
Riiight.

/closes online banking account

What's the alternative? To accept everything?

The cop has no obligation to accept it, nor should he.

The suggestion that I think everything on the net, such as your bank account, is dismissable, is silly...

[Steve Parr]

Having paperwork to back up your understanding is even better.
One could however get a better source, in the form of local law, as opposed to this general bill of rights. Again , though, this BOR could not hurt, only ones own attitude can.

Absolutely true.

The guy I saw who pulled it out actually told the cop "You can't stop me, I have this!" as he shoved forward the paper.

Well, the cop soon informed him otherwise...

[DwightMcCann]

Absolutely true.

The guy I saw who pulled it out actually told the cop "You can't stop me, I have this!" as he shoved forward the paper.

Well, the cop soon informed him otherwise...
Aha, I see you're looking to get banned again! :lol::lol::lol: As for the BOR, I think you could easily say to the cop, "I understand your concern. When I researched what was OK I found this. Could you give me a reference to the statutes that actually govern this so I can check them out?" Cops are like everyone else, there are good ones, bad ones, evil ones, smart ones and stupid ones. Suggesting that all cops are alike is like suggesting all women are alike ... ain't true. You must exercise your respectful judgment in both cases.

As to your question about what sense it makes to sue a cop or city, plenty! That's how we clarify issues with government entities ... it's what makes America great! We don't have to cowtow to officious authorities just because some few individuals attempt to bully us under the color of authority. I've caused more than one municipality to review their procedures and discipline their functionaries. It only takes one or two cowboys in a department to make everyone look bad. The five or six police officers/investigators I know all seem to agree that while it is best to try reason, suing is sometimes required, usually due to big egos with small minds ... yes, even they know who the trouble makers are! :-)

[Steve Parr]

Aha, I see you're looking to get banned again! :lol::lol::lol: As for the BOR, I think you could easily say to the cop, "I understand your concern. When I researched what was OK I found this. Could you give me a reference to the statutes that actually govern this so I can check them out?" Cops are like everyone else, there are good ones, bad ones, evil ones, smart ones and stupid ones. Suggesting that all cops are alike is like suggesting all women are alike ... ain't true. You must exercise your respectful judgment in both cases.

Yes, not always expressing the popular opinion is often frowned upon.

I agree with you, to a point, that not all cops are alike. But, shove a iece of paper in their face, while you say "But I have this!" will elicit the exact same response, every time...

[Kittygraphix]

But, shove a iece of paper in their face, while you say "But I have this!" will elicit the exact same response, every time...

Actually no one here suggested that we shove a paper in anyone's face like an overgrown ogre while yelling at them, you are the one that jumped that gun from my earlier statement.

USA Photographers Rights
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Best advised to print out and lamenate to keep in your camera bag for quick reference.

The words I used was "for a quick reference" , not "for a quick beat-down".

In ANY situation if you react to anyone by getting in their face you will not get a nice consequence, that is just stating the obvious

[Steve Parr]

Actually no one here suggested that we shove a paper in anyone's face like an overgrown ogre while yelling at them, you are the one that jumped that gun from my earlier statement.

I "jumped that gun" because I've actually seen it happen. The one time I see someone pull the BOR from his bag, and he acts like a complete tool.

The words I used was "for a quick reference" , not "for a quick beat-down".

In ANY situation if you react to anyone by getting in their face you will not get a nice consequence, that is just stating the obvious

Well, based on a lot of the comments I read here, I think it's a safe bet that many here would not be courteous and respectful and would, instead, take the "I have this so deal with it, Cop" approach.

Again, I've only seen someone try to rely on that piece of paper only once.

And he was arrested.

And I smiled...

[flipstyle72]

I have a few friends who are of the law...and I can honestly say that I'd never talk bad or be argumentative to a cop..because police brutality does exist!! lol at least in New Orleans...and in it's jails.

If i was shooting and was told not to, i'd have to politely oblige and sneak back when they weren't around.

[digirebelva]

I was always told to be courteous to cops regardless of the situation..Usually helps to diffuse a situation (unless the cop has is on a power trip)..Most like to err on the side of caution anyway..so being nice and respectfull can go a long way in having the cop actually listen to your side..

[Kittygraphix]

I "jumped that gun" because I've actually seen it happen. The one time I see someone pull the BOR from his bag, and he acts like a complete tool.




It wasn't because he pulled the BOR out of his bag that he was arrested, he could have pulled a jack rabbit out of his bag and gottent the same response. It was because he was a tard and wanted to prove himself bigger and smarter than the cop. That NEVER goes well and almost guarantees you being escorted away

I've been busted on condemned property and have been able to finesse my way out of being arrested and/or being able to continue to shoot my subject before the storm and after with both military and cops. It's all in the approach :)

[AdamJL]

Well, based on a lot of the comments I read here, I think it's a safe bet that many here would not be courteous and respectful and would, instead, take the "I have this so deal with it, Cop" approach.


I've no idea where you are getting this from.
So what if we'd pull that out of the bag. You can do it respectfully, and talk about it with a police officer. Your world seems very black and white.

[AdamJL]

What's the alternative? To accept everything?


Proof of "black and white" before you flame me.
How about "accept some things, not others".

[Bill Roberts]

I have a few friends who are of the law...and I can honestly say that I'd never talk bad or be argumentative to a cop..because police brutality does exist!! lol at least in New Orleans...and in it's jails.

If i was shooting and was told not to, i'd have to politely oblige and sneak back when they weren't around.


Then all I can say is that is a terrible indictment of the society you live in.
The police are NOT above the law.

[Steve Parr]

It wasn't because he pulled the BOR out of his bag that he was arrested, he could have pulled a jack rabbit out of his bag and gottent the same response. It was because he was a tard and wanted to prove himself bigger and smarter than the cop. That NEVER goes well and almost guarantees you being escorted away

You're right.

He was arrested for copping the attitude that he thought having the BOR allowed him to have.

The cop quickly assured him otherwise.

I can't believe that there would be only one such person on the planet, and I got to see him...

[Steve Parr]

Proof of "black and white" before you flame me.
How about "accept some things, not others".

Okay, fine.

On what basis should a cop accept the "BOR" when someone pulls it out?

[AdamJL]

On the basis that the cop and photographer are having an honest, open, discussion.

"yes, officer, I understand what you're saying. However, I believe I am entitled to take pictures here, based on this [insert choice of evidence]. What do you think?"
Nice and polite. I'm sure the officer will talk it through with the 'tog, rather than dismiss it out of hand as he/she would do in your black and white world.

[photoguy6405]

Okay, fine.

On what basis should a cop accept the "BOR" when someone pulls it out?

If the officer is a reasonable person to begin with and not some power-hungry maniac, then they should have a reasonable sense of right and wrong according to the law, and a set of printed "BOR" could be read and determined if it fits or not. I know it's hard to believe, but police officers are generally pretty uninformed when it comes to the law. Excepting narrowly specific areas that they deal with on a day-to-day basis, of course.

Changing direction a bit, I'm wondering something myself. For the most part I agree with your stance as it relates in how to deal with authorities and not shoot oneself in the foot, but as the thread goes on it seems that you're unwilling to deviate from that. What's the purpose of even having rights if everybody should just roll over whenever some uneducated schmuck in a uniform says so? When would YOU reach your limit and start to fight back?

[Steve Parr]

If the officer is a reasonable person to begin with and not some power-hungry maniac, then they should have a reasonable sense of right and wrong according to the law, and a set of printed "BOR" could be read and determined if it fits or not. I know it's hard to believe, but police officers are generally pretty uninformed when it comes to the law. Excepting narrowly specific areas that they deal with on a day-to-day basis, of course.

Changing direction a bit, I'm wondering something myself. For the most part I agree with your stance as it relates in how to deal with authorities and not shoot oneself in the foot, but as the thread goes on it seems that you're unwilling to deviate from that. What's the purpose of even having rights if everybody should just roll over whenever some uneducated schmuck in a uniform says so? When would YOU reach your limit and start to fight back?

I just don't see a point in being confrontational with a cop. I can't think of an instance where it has a positive outcome.

Now, some will gladly get in the cops' face, get arrested, and then pursue a resolution in court. The way I see it, well, I don't want to be arrested. I don't want to have to pay to bring a suit against a cop or a city. I think it's pretty evident, though, that there are those here who'd be comfortable with that.

Instead, I would tell the cop that I thought he was in the wrong, and I would leave. I would then determine exactly what the law for that jurisdiction is. I would print that out, go back, and start taking pictures again. If confronted then, I would pull out a print out of the actual law.

The cop is far more likely to heed that than something some random lawyer on the internet put on his website.

I agree, 100%, that the initial response to the cop will pretty much determine how things will work out. Again, in the instance I saw, the guy almost didn't even look at the cop; he just pulled the BOR out, pushed it at the cop, and kept shooting.

The cop didn't take too kindly too that, and I can understand why...

[photoguy6405]

I just don't see a point in being confrontational with a cop. I can't think of an instance where it has a positive outcome.

Now, some will gladly get in the cops' face, get arrested, and then pursue a resolution in court. The way I see it, well, I don't want to be arrested. I don't want to have to pay to bring a suit against a cop or a city. I think it's pretty evident, though, that there are those here who'd be comfortable with that.

Instead, I would tell the cop that I thought he was in the wrong, and I would leave. I would then determine exactly what the law for that jurisdiction is. I would print that out, go back, and start taking pictures again. If confronted then, I would pull out a print out of the actual law.

The cop is far more likely to heed that than something some random lawyer on the internet put on his website.

I agree, 100%, that the initial response to the cop will pretty much determine how things will work out. Again, in the instance I saw, the guy almost didn't even look at the cop; he just pulled the BOR out, pushed it at the cop, and kept shooting.

The cop didn't take too kindly too that, and I can understand why...

I'm with you that I would choose to not get arrested. We deviate after-the-fact, as I'd be more likely to pursue it through more diplomatic means, including court if necessary, though court would be a last resort. I'd do some complaint filing and letter writing in an attempt to get them to establish either their right to stop me or admission of error, first.

The only problem I see with producing a copy of the actual law is that the officer may still feel that you are smugly throwing it in his face, and it may backfire also. He may not get you for that now, but he's been challenged and may look for anything else.

[wernersl]

I'm with you that I would choose to not get arrested. We deviate after-the-fact, as I'd be more likely to pursue it through more diplomatic means, including court if necessary, though court would be a last resort. I'd do some complaint filing and letter writing in an attempt to get them to establish either their right to stop me or admission of error, first.

The only problem I see with producing a copy of the actual law is that the officer may still feel that you are smugly throwing it in his face, and it may backfire also. He may not get you for that now, but he's been challenged and may look for anything else.
like what, a shoe being illegally untied? really though...not much to argue when you inform the kind officer of your rights, especially when you can site the law (in a tactful manor). I'm not saying that one should try to be blatantly confrontational with an authority figure, but i do think that more people should defend their rights. that is the problem, especially in this (us) country...fear. and that is why (some) cops are the way they are, because many people will cower to it. if i conduct myself respectfully, within the law then let them do what they will. i will get mine when i go after the city for that individual's actions.

there are, however, people out there that over-defend themselves...meaning they seek out trouble, usually don't REALLY know the law and get themselves in trouble because of their physical conduct when confronted. knowing your rights does not give you the RIGHT to conduct yourself like a "tool". many people who get locked up over these types of issues do so by their conduct. the moment they become confrontational they are regarded as hostile and the original issue is no longer in question. anyway...either way you look at it, the subject of RIGHTS will always be controversial and argued, etc. just treat people with a moderate amount of respect and decency and be surprised as to how it is returned!

[Jon Foster]

Stories like this/these are one of the reasons I don't go that extra mile to buy a new 1DsMk3 and a boat load of L glass.

Jon.

[wernersl]

Stories like this/these are one of the reasons I don't go that extra mile to buy a new 1DsMk3 and a boat load of L glass.

Jon.
i would guess that cost is the barrier there!

[JWright]

I "jumped that gun" because I've actually seen it happen. The one time I see someone pull the BOR from his bag, and he acts like a complete tool.

Well, based on a lot of the comments I read here, I think it's a safe bet that many here would not be courteous and respectful and would, instead, take the "I have this so deal with it, Cop" approach.

Again, I've only seen someone try to rely on that piece of paper only once.

And he was arrested.

And I smiled...

I'd love to hear the whole story behind this one...

[photoguy6405]

like what, a shoe being illegally untied? really though...not much to argue when you inform the kind officer of your rights, especially when you can site the law (in a tactful manor). I'm not saying that one should try to be blatantly confrontational with an authority figure, but i do think that more people should defend their rights. that is the problem, especially in this (us) country...fear. and that is why (some) cops are the way they are, because many people will cower to it. if i conduct myself respectfully, within the law then let them do what they will. i will get mine when i go after the city for that individual's actions.

there are, however, people out there that over-defend themselves...meaning they seek out trouble, usually don't REALLY know the law and get themselves in trouble because of their physical conduct when confronted. knowing your rights does not give you the RIGHT to conduct yourself like a "tool". many people who get locked up over these types of issues do so by their conduct. the moment they become confrontational they are regarded as hostile and the original issue is no longer in question. anyway...either way you look at it, the subject of RIGHTS will always be controversial and argued, etc. just treat people with a moderate amount of respect and decency and be surprised as to how it is returned!

We don't really disagree. We both feel that defending our rights is a worthwhile endeavor. We just differ on how and why and when. In all actuality, I probably would try to have a rational conversation with the officer, I wouldn't just pack up and leave. But, while trying to do so, I would take note of his attitude, and if it became clear that he was going to be unreasonable I would then leave, and continue the fight with his supervisors later.

[snails]

This is why I don't take pictures of people.

[Steve Parr]

The only problem I see with producing a copy of the actual law is that the officer may still feel that you are smugly throwing it in his face, and it may backfire also.

You're right. The cop would probably react so much calmer to someone throwing some internet tripe in his face.

If the law is going to set him off, what do you think the "BOR" is gonna' do??

[CyberDyneSystems]

Steve, time to reign it in. I believe you've repeated this point several times. No need to continue to push it.

[wernersl]

you could always punch the cop! that would get your point across!

[Bill Roberts]

you could always punch the cop! that would get your point across!

Probably NOT a good idea!

[wernersl]

Probably NOT a good idea!
never said it was...just said it can be done! :cool:

[bbrovold]

I have been questioned by the police for taking pictures in a public area (state fair grounds). It was a strange situation in which the cop didn't really know how to approach the situation but seemed intent on asking questions since "that's what police do". I told him to ask away but told him that photography is "what I do". When he left I took a few shots of his car as he pulled away and stayed on site for a while. He did keep an eye on me until I left. My take on the situation is just strange because it boiled down to the fact that HE didn't understand what there was to take pictures of so HE thought that I shouldn't be there.
Anyway, know your rights and exercise them while they still exist. History repeats itself.