help! how do i recruit when i have no G&N?

[studiotime]

ok, here's some stuff i DO have already:
- website of my recent works (ranges from candids to artsy portraits, and performers)
- postcard showing some of those pics along w/my contact and site info and the types of shoots i do
- put myself on OMP


and here's what i DON'T have:
- female models. not a one!
- tried to post on craigslist for female subjects, and got zero replies

so my big question is:
1) how can i get female subjects at all?? i tried stating that i'm "working to expand present portfolio", and "this is for trade - release for free pics on CD", and still.....nothing :(
2) are these female subjects *really* expecting or thinking we photographers are 'not too important'?? or that *they* should get paid all the time??

could someone pls help or enlighten me on this whole deal?

thanks! :)

[RandyMN]

Start networking. Craigslist is a joke trying to ask for a female subject as there are too many weirdo's out there. And this goes both ways.

Here in Minnesota we had a babysitter get killed by an responder in his late teens that brought her in for his babysitting, and just recently a escort showed at a house where the buyer changed his mind and the results weren't too pretty when the pimp decided he wasn't happy sending his woman out and wasting their time.

[BigD74]

Have you tried ModelMayhem.
I have heard that the models on there are more willing then on OMP.

[DocFrankenstein]

Why do you want to shoot women?

[Hermes]

ok, here's some stuff i DO have already:
- website of my recent works (ranges from candids to artsy portraits, and performers)
- postcard showing some of those pics along w/my contact and site info and the types of shoots i do
- put myself on OMP


and here's what i DON'T have:
- female models. not a one!
- tried to post on craigslist for female subjects, and got zero replies

so my big question is:
1) how can i get female subjects at all?? i tried stating that i'm "working to expand present portfolio", and "this is for trade - release for free pics on CD", and still.....nothing :(
2) are these female subjects *really* expecting or thinking we photographers are 'not too important'?? or that *they* should get paid all the time??

could someone pls help or enlighten me on this whole deal?

thanks! :)

Um.... you don't have to be arrogant or self-important to expect to get paid for your work.

In exchange for their time, models quite rightly expect to receive portfolio material that is both high in quality and suitable for the market they are in - if you have not shot glamour before and have no experience of the industry, how can they be confident that shooting with you will be worth their while?

On top of that, most models I know get bombarded everyday with requests from photographers and are very selective in who they work with simply because they can be.

[cdifoto]

2) are these female subjects *really* expecting or thinking we photographers are 'not too important'?? or that *they* should get paid all the time??

Think of it from their side: If you suck, what's in it for them? Free images? But they're crap...useless in a serious model's portfolio. You want a quality girl for free, they want a quality photographer for free. If you just want to practice your lighting, take your grandma to the park.

[SwingBopper]

Join a group-shoot sponsored by a local camera store or camera club or photographer in or near your area and start building a portfolio of glam shots to add to your web site. Then maybe you'll have something to "sell" in future recruiting. Be patient and humble.

[studiotime]

Um.... you don't have to be arrogant or self-important to expect to get paid for your work.

LOL. no arrogance here :D
i've been hit up by numerous females saying they're only avail for pay, is all :) but i also found their email messages to me.....interesting.

In exchange for their time, models quite rightly expect to receive portfolio material that is both high in quality and suitable for the market they are in - if you have not shot glamour before and have no experience of the industry, how can they be confident that shooting with you will be worth their while?

like i mentioned, i would offer all pics on CD in exchange for their time. total trade, total teamwork here. they'd have full use, and so would i.

On top of that, most models I know get bombarded everyday with requests from photographers and are very selective in who they work with simply because they can be.

of course :)
actually, the ones i've shot (and are in my portfolio) include so-called "controversial subject matter", and the only ones i've shot are the ones i networked from. but the fact that all i have a male subjects......another hinderance, apparently :(

[studiotime]

Think of it from their side: If you suck, what's in it for them? Free images? But they're crap...useless in a serious model's portfolio. You want a quality girl for free, they want a quality photographer for free. If you just want to practice your lighting, take your grandma to the park.

no thanks, my grandma died.

anyway, the females that responded to my (omp) profile have all said they really like my work and that it was "unusual and refreshing", followed shortly w/"...would love to work w/you sometime!".

so i reply in mutual agreement, and let them know that i'd love to on a TFP basis. but that's where it ends for me.

*sigh*

[studiotime]

Why do you want to shoot women?

it's not that i 'want' to shoot females. as a photographer i like to keep as well-rounded portfolio as possible, and i've been approached for work because of this (from males only). BUT....my aim is actually doing fashion and glam, and i've already had designers wanting to hire me, but i don't have any female models in my portfolio (which is what they really want and need). hence, my question :D

[Hermes]

no thanks, my grandma died.

anyway, the females that responded to my (omp) profile have all said they really like my work and that it was "unusual and refreshing", followed shortly w/"...would love to work w/you sometime!".

so i reply in mutual agreement, and let them know that i'd love to on a TFP basis. but that's where it ends for me.

*sigh*

"would love to work with you sometime" is code for "would love you to hire me sometime." - basically the model version of spam advertising.

if your work is good, go to some local agencies and tell them you are available for testing, should give you a chance to do portfolio work with good models. If they turn you down, that's a good sign that your work isn't up to industry standards, in which case you should really be paying for your models.

[studiotime]

"would love to work with you sometime" is code for "would love you to hire me sometime." - basically the model version of spam advertising.

if your work is good, go to some local agencies and tell them you are available for testing, should give you a chance to do portfolio work with good models. If they turn you down, that's a good sign that your work isn't up to industry standards, in which case you should really be paying for your models.

wow, thanks for the tip (guess i'll be doing some email cleaning....). and yes, i agree w/the getting turned down part (in fact i did that for a while when i first started and it was such a great way for me to grow and improve). however, now my question is - how is it that i can get approached for paid work on one hand by the males, but not by the females?? do i need to change my approach w/them maybe?

TIA! :)

[DocFrankenstein]

"would love to work with you sometime" is code for "would love you to hire me sometime." - basically the model version of spam advertising.

if your work is good, go to some local agencies and tell them you are available for testing, should give you a chance to do portfolio work with good models. If they turn you down, that's a good sign that your work isn't up to industry standards, in which case you should really be paying for your models.
You should not be paying your models when you're shooting to learn and expand your portfolio.

Beauty is everywhere and it's easy to find people willing to pose. Just make sure not to have a flashlight in your pocket when you approach with intent to shoot.

[Hermes]

You should not be paying your models when you're shooting to learn and expand your portfolio.

Beauty is everywhere and it's easy to find people willing to pose. Just make sure not to have a flashlight in your pocket when you approach with intent to shoot.

Unfortunately 'willing to pose' and 'able to pose' are not the same thing.

If you're a total amateur without a clue of what you're doing then I'd agree, shooting a professional model would be a waste of money and would most likely put you under undue pressure.

If, however you're experienced and looking to build a portfolio to get work in a new market then hiring a professional model will help you get the results you need without having to spend time looking for them, teaching them or editing photos especially for them. Modelling at the level that makes or breaks glamour images is not something anyone can do and if it was me, I'd much prefer to spend a few hours and a bit of money to shoot a talented and experienced professional who has proven their ability to get results, than endless hours trying to get new models and amateurs to model at a professional level.

[Hermes]

wow, thanks for the tip (guess i'll be doing some email cleaning....). and yes, i agree w/the getting turned down part (in fact i did that for a while when i first started and it was such a great way for me to grow and improve). however, now my question is - how is it that i can get approached for paid work on one hand by the males, but not by the females?? do i need to change my approach w/them maybe?

TIA! :)

The internet is packed with amateurs who would give their right arm to shoot glamour models without having to pay out anything. Male models don't get anywhere near the same amount of attention from photographers (most of whom are male) as women do, so they are usually more willing to pay for portfolios or accept TFP.

I don't contact models through the internet so I'm afraid I can't advise you other than to be up front about what it is you're offering and what you hope to achieve. New models without portfolios would be better to approach.

Good Luck

[Jarrad]

Exhausted Family, Friends, Friends of friends?

Try Modelmayhem.com (Seriously)

Take an interactive workshop in the area of your photographic interest. (this will probably get you your best results and the fastest).

After that, if you can't find anyone, hire a professional model.

[studiotime]

Exhausted Family, Friends, Friends of friends?
yep! :( kinda sucks lol.

Try Modelmayhem.com (Seriously)

Take an interactive workshop in the area of your photographic interest. (this will probably get you your best results and the fastest).

After that, if you can't find anyone, hire a professional model.

ok, thanks

[studiotime]

The internet is packed with amateurs who would give their right arm to shoot glamour models without having to pay out anything. Male models don't get anywhere near the same amount of attention from photographers (most of whom are male) as women do, so they are usually more willing to pay for portfolios or accept TFP.

true, but even when a mutual trade is being offered?

I don't contact models through the internet so I'm afraid I can't advise you other than to be up front about what it is you're offering and what you hope to achieve. New models without portfolios would be better to approach.

Good Luck

thanks. i went back to omp and seeming to have much better luck now.

[Longwatcher]

I am on both OMP and MM, they function differently but the same.

You are more likely to find a TFCD model on MM then OMP, however, in my opinion the best option is to aim for some camera phone models on OMP and take some better pictures of them, start with clothed, move to swimsuit and then go where you need to.

A good photographer should be able to make anybody look decent and someone have-way good looking look great. If nothing else think of it as a challenge.

I do recommend you learn basic poses as most of the models in the camera phone category have no clue how to pose.

MM doesn't have nearly as many camera phone models and most of the people recognize that they expect to make no money from MM site. models on OMP are at least hoping to make some money. That is probably the biggest difference.

Lastly for free models, be willing to accept that a certain percentage will just not show up for the shoot no matter how much confirmation you got. I estimate it as 1 in 10 will respond to the initial inquiry and 1/4 of those responding will result in an actual shoot happening. Be ready to live with that. Paying the models even a modest amount improves the flake rate greatly.

Just my experience,

[ryant35]

Why do you want to shoot women?

I feel the same way. That is why I shoot off road race trucks.

I have used Craigslist to try and find models and I had a great turnout the first time. I made a reservation at a studio, and placed my ad. I think it was the fact I had a public location studio and a scheduled time helped a lot.

I had 7 models that night and I had to turn away at least 3. It turned out great.

The next time I found just as many models and they all confirmed. Nobody showed up. I sat there for 3 hours until my wife's friend showed up with her boyfriend for some portraits so it wasn't a complete waste.

[studiotime]

Paying the models even a modest amount improves the flake rate greatly.

Just my experience,

thanks! and it's exactly where i want to go w/this (for now...until i get more of a reputation around for shooting glam).

[DocFrankenstein]

Unfortunately 'willing to pose' and 'able to pose' are not the same thing.
There are photographers that expect the model to create the image and there are photographers that direct the model into their vision.

You're the artist, you have the control, you direct the model, not the other way around.

[Hermes]

There are photographers that expect the model to create the image and there are photographers that direct the model into their vision.

You're the artist, you have the control, you direct the model, not the other way around.

I acknowledged that, my point was that it's an unnecessary waste of time trying to direct and teach someone with no experience for the sake of saving a bit of money, when there are talented professionals out there who take great care in their appearance and who have skill in posing, capturing expressions and portraying emotion.

There's no difference between using a high standard of model in your capture and using a high standard of camera or studio-lighting - they are tools used to create the final image and the better the tools, the easier it is. Yes it's possible to get good images working with amateur models just like it's possible to take great pictures with 100w tungsten bulbs and a 30 year-old film SLR, but any photographer who values their own time and aims to produce the standard of work expected by the industry is handicapping themselves by doing so.

[Alexajlex]

I can tell you flat out that based on my experience that a lot of Modelmayhem.com models are a unreliable.

I posted about this before but I will post a brief piece on this again.

I spent about 2-3 months trying to get something setup with people from MM.

All flakes. I went with outdoor fashion type shots in a public area and studio shots. I always tried to stress that they can bring someone with them to make them feel more comfortable.

In the end everyone who somehow was not be able to make it to the shoot(s).

I had a link with previous pics in my ad to show them I've done these kind of shoots before.

I hate to be cold but honestly it finally clicked. On MM there are a lot of people that are wannabe models and don't go the distance to even have some decent shots to represent themselves. Most of the pics I saw listed from the people that contacted me were snapshots from bars and what not where they were clearly a group shot and the person cropped everyone else out!!!

If they don't really put the effort how do they expect to succeed.

[studiotime]

I can tell you flat out that based on my experience that a lot of Modelmayhem.com models are a unreliable.

I posted about this before but I will post a brief piece on this again.

I spent about 2-3 months trying to get something setup with people from MM.

All flakes. I went with outdoor fashion type shots in a public area and studio shots. I always tried to stress that they can bring someone with them to make them feel more comfortable.

In the end everyone who somehow was not be able to make it to the shoot(s).

I had a link with previous pics in my ad to show them I've done these kind of shoots before.

I hate to be cold but honestly it finally clicked. On MM there are a lot of people that are wannabe models and don't go the distance to even have some decent shots to represent themselves. Most of the pics I saw listed from the people that contacted me were snapshots from bars and what not where they were clearly a group shot and the person cropped everyone else out!!!

If they don't really put the effort how do they expect to succeed.

you couldn't have said this better about the 'models' from MM..!

i did a shoot w/a photogroup once, and the guy who runs it had to do a TON of clever wording on his announcements and profile to get any of them to show, and the 'models' that showed up basically thought the shoot was going to be some kind of pajama party for10 yr old girls - complete unprofessionalism, "don't want to do this" or "don't want to do that" (re. the make up and hair), zero skin care or physical care at all, and to add to all this...their posing offered us nothing but a bunch of headshots at the end of the day.

a real eye-opener for me when i hear someone say they want to be a model!

[Stocky]

ha ha... My sister has a MM account. If you are in the Baltimore-DC area I might be able to recommend someone reliable, but otherwise I wish you luck.

[DocFrankenstein]

I acknowledged that, my point was that it's an unnecessary waste of time trying to direct and teach someone with no experience for the sake of saving a bit of money, when there are talented professionals out there who take great care in their appearance and who have skill in posing, capturing expressions and portraying emotion.
There's no teaching - they either have the look or they don't.

In terms of direction, you need to direct either way and you have to explain exactly what you want.

The problem with most photographers is that they don't know what they want in the first place.

[Hermes]

There's no teaching - they either have the look or they don't.

In terms of direction, you need to direct either way and you have to explain exactly what you want.

The problem with most photographers is that they don't know what they want in the first place.

You have to explain what you want but that doesn't mean the model will automatically be able to provide it. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that anyone can be a great actor as long as they have the right look because there will always be a director working with them. There is a reason acting and drama schools exist just as there is a reason that modelling academies exist and the top agencies sign almost exclusively from them. There's much more to both jobs than blindly obeying commands.

Speaking personally, it's not a cost-effective use of my time spending the entire shoot 'holding the model's hand' and posing every limb individually for each shot. Explaining the concept, giving the model their motivation, building a rapport and making changes is part of my job - constantly spelling everything out, teaching the basics of modelling and trying to overcome the timidness that comes with inexperience is not, and I honestly don't see how any glamour photographer can work effectively under these conditions. Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree here Doc.

If you have the free-time and the patience to go through all that on the other hand, good luck to you. If I were to comment on 'most' photographers, I'd say that they attach too little value to their own time, and consequently don't realise the extent to which the industry runs on getting consistently good results on-time and on-budget.

To the OP, if you're shooting purely as a hobby and can find a model willing to participate for free then take your time and have fun - you'll probably get some takers sooner or later. If you're creating a portfolio as a precursor to doing regular paid work in the industry then I'd strongly recommend hiring a reputable model (or models), getting your planned images done, and getting stuck into the real work rather than spending your time chasing after freebie models who will be less experienced, less reliable and less knowledgeable.

Good Luck

[studiotime]

ha ha... My sister has a MM account. If you are in the Baltimore-DC area I might be able to recommend someone reliable, but otherwise I wish you luck.

thanks! but unfortunately i'm further up north.
but equally......if ever you're in the tri-state area i have a wonderful MUA who also works for MAC :)

[Longwatcher]

Just a further note on MM and OMP, I have had overall identical flake rates from both sites. My flake rate is actually lower then I stated above, but that is because I have been on these sites for some time and can do a fairly good job of eliminating those likely to flake. this saves much time as I don't even bother to contact them.

There are several indicators
1. big one is they only have web cam or cell phone cam shots in their portfolio with maybe one student or wedding portrait.

2. They tend to have a lot of myspace type angles to the photos with maybe only one classical shot in the mix.

3. little or no makeup or bad makeup (as I would say there is good Goth makeup and then bad Goth makeup if it is a weird style it should be well done or don't bother ) or messed up hair.

4. They say they have much experience, but have bad photos in the portfolio

5. They used to work at Hooters, were an exotic dancer, or their friends told them they should be a model.

A lesser indicator is that they have shots from only one photographer. (this one should never be taken by itself )

There may be some more subtle ones I pick up on also, but those are the obvious ones. Individually they can be ignored, but the more present the less likely that they will show to a free shoot.

For example a model with cell phone shots, but who says in the bio, I am just starting out and need to get a professional portfolio going or something to that effect actually run a decent chance of showing up. They have crappy shots, but have been honest that they know it this is a good sign.

My past year MM ratio was 1 out of 3 I contacted showed up, with 2 of 3 showing after confirmation.
For OMP this past year it was 1 out 5, with 3 of 5 showing after confirmation.
My track record for paying shoots, 100%, although with one reschedule.
My pay me shoots for portfolios, 2 of 3 showed.

Final note on sending models messages, I found you need to keep the first one as short as you think you can get away with - which anyone that knows me can understand when I say - a short message is very hard for me. :)

Just my experience,

[studiotime]

thanks. (and explains why so many have the crappy cellphone pics yet claim to be 'depends on assignment' only). i found those who actually indicated that they have nothing but snapshots and are looking to have better pics done to be the best so far - and now i just have to wait to see if she'll actually show :)

and thanks for those ratios.