Is this to much?

[melissaandkris]

I have done sessions for several families at church. I have had several more people asking me to do pictures. This consists of me driving to their home or multiple locations. I am just starting out in this and Im not sure what to charge. I have searched "what to charge" and found some helpful stuff but a lot of it go more towards events/sport stuff. I just need help pricing for families. Does this seem like to much? Any help you can give would be very much appreciated. I have a session Saturday.

Also if you have any suggestions for switching around print sizes or anything please let me know!

Package A $40.00
Single pose
8x10 (1)
5x7 (4)
Wallets (12)

Package B $70.00
Three poses
11x14 (1)
8x10 (2)
5x7 (4)
Wallets (12)

Package C $95.00
Four poses
16x20 (1)
8x10 (4)
5x7 (6)
Wallets (24)

Additional sheets are available at $12.00 each.
Sheets can consist of either 1 8x10, 2 5x7, or 8 wallets.

[Nightstalker]

Let me ask a few questions before I try to advise.

1. On average how long will it take you to complete a shoot - by that I mean time from leaving home to returning home PLUS post processing time?

2. What are your TRUE printing costs?

TBH I ask these because your prices seem very low.

Your basic shoot I'd imagine would take 1.5 hours from leaving home to gettin back plus perhaps another 30 mins in Photoshop - so say 2 hours in total for which you'd get $40 out of which you have to take fuel costs and printing costs.

So $20 per hour less costs.

I don't know what costs in the USA are at the moment so can't comment on these but as I say this sounds low.

When I do an event in the UK I sell a single 6x9 print for $15 (equivalent) but my costs are spread across a lot of sales - a small graduation event last week with 10 students netted us $500 in sales in about 2 hours.

[melissaandkris]

Id say average is about 3 hours, then PP work. Printing costs are pretty low, I use MPIX. 5x7 is 0.99, 8x10 is 1.99, 11x14 is 6.99, 16x20 is 15.99. Thats not including shipping or anything though.

[tim]

In general a professional will charge between about five and twenty times what you're charging. I've never seen pricing by the pose. Generally people charge a session or sitting fee (though some do these free), then charge per print. In my area the average price for an 8x12" print from a portrait session is something like $100, though it can vary from $20 to $500. Some photographers have minimum print orders of $1000 from a portrait sitting, and it's not unusual for a good portrait photographer to make $3000 or $4000 sales. A good friend of mine paid $1000 for one framed collage of photos of his kids, that was just the kids playing in a white room for an hour.

You're MASSIVELY undercharging, and if you have any skill at all it'd no wonder you're in demand. Join www.digitalweddingforum.com (if you qualify - working pros with a portfolio only AFAIK) and check out the portrait area.

[amfoto1]

Your pricing model looks like what one would see in a portrait studio at a mall, for walk-in customers.

First be aware that those prices are a "come on". They are just to get people in the door and, usually, their kids in front of the camera. Then the upselling starts. I bet most people end up with $400 worth of images before they are done.

And, walk-in studio pricing has little or no bearing on that of personalized, location shooting.

Location portrait work like your are doing should have a minimum, to cover all your costs of going there and setting up, your investment in equipment (which wears out), as well as the time you put into preparation and post production. You have transportation costs, and need to be skillful at handling many different situations. (Walk-in mall studios have the lighting preset, the photographers hardly even need to know how to use a camera much beyond "press here". It's mostly about plunking them down on right the X and then getting the little kiddies to stop crying and grin.)

One location pricing model I'm aware of starts out at about $500 to $750 for the shoot, which includes a proof book of small images (maybe the best 100, after some editing and intial post production processing) and perhaps a small number of enlargements of their choice, to get them started ordering. Additional enlargements or a finished "coffee table" album of the images would be at additional cost. There may be additional mileage or time charges for traveling beyond a specific distance.

A well-established and respected pro would probably charge a lot more.

Do not, I repeat, do not give them a CD/DVD with large digital files of your images (CD/DVD with low res, watermarked, for-proofing-purposes-only are okay). Too often what happens if they get hold of the images in relatively finished form, they'll have them printed at the cheapest place in town and the results will look like crap. Then guess who is suddenly a lousy photographer in the eyes of everyone who sees those prints?

Try to get model releases on every person shot. There may be some you can sell for stock, for additional income. You'll also then be able to use the released photos in your own ads and marketing materials. Technically you usually don't need a release to put them in a personal portfolio, "brag book", or enlarged on the wall of your studio, or on a publicly accessible online gallery, but it's a good precaution in any event. Give them one more 8x10 in exchange for the release. Some sort of "compensation" is necessary to validate the release anyway, and a complimentary print from the shoot is pretty much industry standard with non-professional models.

You may just be starting out, but if you under price (as it appears you are... dramatically), every job will cost you money and you will very soon be out of business. Even if you do survive, in people's minds your "value" will be established at the cheap end of the spectrum, and you will have a tough time overcoming that and raising your prices to where they should be.

If you want to generate some initial sales, it would be better to offer a much higher price in conjunction with a 25 or 50% off special for "portfolio building" purposes, than to just offer the lower price. That way people know the "regular" pricing, and are excited to be getting a discount.

It's also always a good idea to give a little extra, something to make each and every customer say, "Wow!" This might be an extra print they didn't expect, or something like that. Or it could be something that becomes your "trademark", too. It's okay to be a little creative with this.

I know a pet photographer who produces a calendar every year of his 12 favorite shots from the previous year, then donates all the proceeds from it's worldwide sale to one of the non-profit pet organizations he works closely with. People line up to have their pets photographed by him, in part because he is well known and does great work, but I bet more than a few are hoping their pet makes it into the calendar, as well. I've seen him working a show all by himself, doing four times the business his competition was doing! That was another pro who had two shooters, a print setup with a post production person, a lighting & posing specialist, and two or three hawkers going around soliciting business! Six or seven to one odds, but guess who was winning the competition!

[tim]

For portraits I don't give customers anything on CD. They look at the photos in my studio and make their purchasing decisions there. I once gave proof sheets to a customer, the photos were 2" across with a watermark on them, but i'm not sure i'll do that again.

[melissaandkris]

Thanks for the very helpful info. I have raised my prices somewhat and will do a bonus 4x6 proof album as a "freebie". I don't plan to sell CD's either. I am pretty new to photography so I guess I just didnt feel "adequate" to charge so much but if the customers are happy and referring me to other people, I guess they'd be willing to pay closer to normal price for them!

Tim, I registered to DWFstart and got an email saying I was admitted so I will definitely read up there too. Thanks again!

[tim]

Don't do the free proof album, people will scan them and blow them up to 8x12 or bigger not bothered that the quality's quite poor.

I think a good exercise for you might be to add up ALL your costs and divide it by the number of expected customers in a year. Costs include equipment cameras, lenses, memory cards, lighting, etc. Assume cameras will last 2-3 years, lenses 5 years. Put a few hundred down as repairs and maintenance. Include depreciation, transport (a reasonable rate to charge yourself for use a personal vehicle might be 75c/mile), insurance, professional memberships, office, power, phone, prints, albums, etc. You'll soon see why photographers charge quite a bit - there are a TON of overheads. If you get a studio and assistants costs skyrocket.

[melissaandkris]

Don't do the free proof album, people will scan them and blow them up to 8x12 or bigger not bothered that the quality's quite poor.

I think a good exercise for you might be to add up ALL your costs and divide it by the number of expected customers in a year. Costs include equipment cameras, lenses, memory cards, lighting, etc. Assume cameras will last 2-3 years, lenses 5 years. Put a few hundred down as repairs and maintenance. Include depreciation, transport (a reasonable rate to charge yourself for use a personal vehicle might be 75c/mile), insurance, professional memberships, office, power, phone, prints, albums, etc. You'll soon see why photographers charge quite a bit - there are a TON of overheads. If you get a studio and assistants costs skyrocket.

I didnt even think about that....That's why you guys are the pros I guess! Thanks for the exercise idea, that will be interesting to see how it comes out.

[amfoto1]

Don't do the free proof album, people will scan them and blow them up to 8x12 or bigger not bothered that the quality's quite poor.

With respect, I have to disagree.

Based on this logic, you should never sell any print or any sort of printed album.

There's nothing to stop them from scanning and trying to reprint any print you sell them, and ultimately your goal is to sell them a large number of prints. In fact, they'll have an even easier time copying the 8x10 they purchase from you, or the page from a wedding album, than scanning the 4x6 you include in a package album.

Put a "signature" watermark on the front of every image and print a copyright notice on the back. That's the best you can do and will (usually) keep them from having scans and prints done professionally, say at a copy shop or photo lab. Also include a printed, informational copyright notice somewhere in the book (or in a file on a CD). Forget about boldly printing "PROOF" over the face of the image, or otherwise obscuring it. Skilled copiers can undo that with a little work (but might make the image look pretty bad in the process, which unfortunately reflects on the photographer, not the person doing the cloning).

There's simply no way to entirely prevent the possibility of print copying. This has been true for a long time, since back in the days of film. It's just easier now, with digital and everyone having scanners and desktop printing capabilities.

By including an album with a large number of shots from the portrait session - say 50 to 100 - you are giving them many more reasons to buy prints and more to choose from, increasing your potential sales. It seems like a gift to them, but to you it's a marketing tool. They can sit and look at it in the comfort of their own home and at their leisure. They can pull it out and look at it again in

Also, clientèle who are spending $500 with you are probably less likely to try to rip off your images, than are $75 clients.

Still, things happen and you can't entirely prevent them. I just draw the line at giving out a CD/DVD with too high resolution images, that they might too easily print themselves. Make these low resolution thumbnails and authorize their use in emails to grandparents and such (who might also buy prints from you).

If someone wants "right to print" sell it too them, maybe $15 per image or something.

If someone wants a digital file to use as a screen saver or as wallpaper, sell it to them, maybe for another $10-15 per image.

Maybe they want a digital slide show to display on their 50" HDTV, sell one to them!

Can they rip them off and use them for something without your consent? Sure.

But, what are you going to do?

Just move on and use the album or proof book - or whatever - as a selling tool for enlargements. It's an antiquated idea to expect people to come to your studio to view a closely guarded proof book (especially of images that were made on location at their home!). Today people expect to receive a set of proof, printed and/or electronic media.

[tim]

The free proof album would've prevented any real print sales. Why would anyone buy something when you can make a perfectly good 8x12 or even bigger from a 6x4" proof? Sure they can scan an 8x10 they buy, but at least you've sold it, the proof book suggested was a freebie. Watermarking would prevent it being scanned.

[Hikin Mike]

I'm not a portrait/wedding shooter, but if I were I would make my money on the sitting fee. ;)

[tim]

A high sitting fee discourages people from coming along. A low initial fee gets people to come to you with little risk to them, then when they see the great photos they can invest in them.

[melissaandkris]

Ok, I raised my prices...did the shoot...and before they even saw the finished product (only on the LCD) they said they wanted the largest package I had and some extra sheets!!! Guess I was worried about being to high for nothing! Thanks guys!

I agree with Tim on the sitting fee though...I wouldnt want to pay a high sitting fee before seeing any of the work or finished product. I think get them in, do a good job and they will want to buy.

[Gary Lindquist]

Ok, I raised my prices...did the shoot...and before they even saw the finished product (only on the LCD) they said they wanted the largest package I had and some extra sheets!!! Guess I was worried about being to high for nothing! Thanks guys!

I agree with Tim on the sitting fee though...I wouldnt want to pay a high sitting fee before seeing any of the work or finished product. I think get them in, do a good job and they will want to buy.

I am glad to hear you increased your fees. Remember, low fees are usually construed by the customers as low quality. I am sure your work reflects much better than the low fees you initially mentioned in this thread.

[tim]

Post some pics!

[melissaandkris]

Posted some to "people". Let me know what you think!