Event Photography - percentage back

[jpyeast]

Hi folks,

I have been doing a lot of reading on the various views of event photography. I have done several small venues. I have an opportunity to approach a local organization for a large softball tournamnet.

I will not be printing on site, just taking orders. I want to work pretty hard to get this account if possible. They are interseted in a percentage back to the organization if a certan amount of gross sales are met. I have seen this in a couple of post's but I know it's not openly offered and should usually be avoided.

I need to present them with a proposal in a couple days. I would greatly appreciate some input from others on what such a scale would look like. It is a softball tournament with 35 teams.

Thanks in advance guys.
John

[LeesaB]

Hi,

I shoot a lot of sporting events, but more on a team basis. What are they looking for? Single shots of each member? team shots? actions coverage? Do you need to make packages?

What are they thinking in terms of a kickback? Generally this is not something I would do, but if that is the case I would include it in your price.

[Mike R]

Did they come out and say they expect a percentage back,(can't use the word "Kickback" that would make it illegal) Every event is different but if they said the expect it, you should not offer more than 10%. Major events are a lot of work and you really don't know how well you will do.
I covered a major cheeerleading event at a university and they told me up front they would refuse anything I offered. They had fired last years photog and told me that I would be helping them out and that was enough.They even advertised me in the registration packages and in the program. It was a fundraiser for Make A Wish so I offered files to the charity for their marketing purposes and they accepted. they also made sure that I received proper credit when the shots were used. I shot 2600+ pictures that day. That evening I got home at 11:30pm and already had 45 emails asking when the shots would be on line.

Would I do it again? Yes
Was it really worth all the effort? Not really


I also shoot HS sports in two different towns. In one of them I offered to give them part of the proceeds because it's the towns first HS, I live in the town and want to help the athletic program, which was very close to being "pay to play" The other town I shoot in, I don't offer anything back and it was never asked of me. Throughout the year I do a few extra things for them and they have shown their appreciation. The funny thing is that sales are better at this school than at the one I give something back to.

[jpyeast]

Thanks for the response's so far.

They of course have a team parent who has been doing pictures for the team. I know, I know. :rolleyes: He was considering doing it for the tournament. I told them that I cant compete for free, so if that is what they were wanting, I wish him the best of luck. After he talked with the parent, he was only going to do it for their team only. I told him that I would want an exclusive rights if I was to do it. He said that he understood and that it shouldnt be a problem.

He did ask specifically if I was the offical photog, if I would pay them a percentage of sales back to the organization. He ask me what I thought my projected sales would be. They have never consider this type of serivce so he was not sure what to expect. I told him that there was NO way to predict that. There are too many variables, not to mention you can not predict peoples buying tendencies.

I was considering 10-15%. I am also still trying to research in the threads to find out what the calculation is for having additional photog's. As I said, they are scheduled to have 35 teams over 3 days. I suspect I will need 2 people at the booth to manage that process as well.

Thanks again everyone.

[Mike R]

Thanks for the response's so far.

They of course have a team parent who has been doing pictures for the team. I know, I know. :rolleyes: He was considering doing it for the tournament. I told them that I cant compete for free, so if that is what they were wanting, I wish him the best of luck. After he talked with the parent, he was only going to do it for their team only.I told him that I would want an exclusive rights if I was to do it.He said that he understood and that it shouldnt be a problem.

He did ask specifically if I was the offical photog, if I would pay them a percentage of sales back to the organization. He ask me what I thought my projected sales would be. They have never consider this type of serivce so he was not sure what to expect. I told him that there was NO way to predict that. There are too many variables, not to mention you can not predict peoples buying tendencies.

I was considering 10-15%. I am also still trying to research in the threads to find out what the calculation is for having additional photog's. As I said, they are scheduled to have 35 teams over 3 days. I suspect I will need 2 people at the booth to manage that process as well.

Thanks again everyone.

Perfect responses. Don't offer over 10% and Best of Luck.

[amfoto1]

First, I would tell them that - just for them, because I'm a nice guy who wants to be as supportive of their efforts as possible, and because it's a large function with significant sales potential - I will forgo my "usual" $500 a day event shooting fee. Heck, I might even make that $750 or $1000! Doesn't really matter, does it, since I'm forgoing the fee!

But, no, I won't pay out a percentage of sales.

Now, I might pay a flat vendor fee for access to a really big, well established and very high sales potential event, if I were given exclusivity.

And, I will support a non-profit organization in many ways that I feel are appropriate; such as donating limited, non-exclusive usage of some of my photos for their website, newsletters, programs, brochures, etc. In return I expect to get a link from their website, credit and a listing in their newsletter, programs and brochures or wherever images are used, etc.

Perhaps I'd even donate limited image usage for some fund raising efforts, such as a calendar that's offered for sale, produced at their expense and with all proceeds going to them. Or - in a situation I'm currently discussing - postcards to be sold for fund raising in a similar manner.

I probably would not be quite as generous with any for profit organization. But I will support them in some ways, such as limited use of my images on their website in exchange for a link.

I would also consider a sponsorship, with either profit or non-profit, such as a donation of prizes (usually prints or print packages, something related to my work that I can buy wholesale). For my sponsorship, I expect to receive a high level of promotion in return.

Oh, and for most events with some reasonable potential for sales, I don't actually charge a shooting fee. I shoot "on spec", which is plenty of risk to take in my opinion.

In either case - for profit or non profit - I will not pay a percentage of my sales, period. Doing so would just set a very bad precedent, I feel. It shouldn't be about money. A percentage of sales sounds way too much like a "kickback", which sounds unprofessional to me, plus it requires me to open my sales records to them. And, it becomes an ongoing bookkeeping nightmare that might last for years into the future (I just recently sold a set of images from a 2006 event!).

If they insisted, I'd just say "Thanks, but no thanks." and walk away.

A note regarding exclusivity... This is not just greed on the part of the photographer, although most people assume that when you first bring it up. It's also a key safety issue. The last thing a sports or event organizer needs is several photographers tripping over each other and getting in the way of their participants, vying to get "the shot"! Multiple sources also confuse their participants, regarding where to look for photos afterward, how to order them, prices of prints, etc., etc.

From my perspective, though, unless it's a huge event, a non-exclusive gig is simply not going to be profitable enough to make worth my while. So, I've walked away from several where we were denied exclusivity. On two occasions, the organizers eventually hired us for events... And gave us exclusivity.

p.s. I have donated a 10% tithe to a church, out of the sales made while shooting an event there. That's a quite different matter, in my opinion.