When it is about photography, not the camera.

[00silvergt]

Just want to rant about an observation I have made in the past few days:

I've been strolling along the internet in the quest to bring my photography to a higher level. So I was glancing at the many galleries of many outstanding photographers and started to notice something.

While viewing the various galleries and finding myself back here to chat around and learn a few things, I also made another observation. Now I am only on the first step of the scientific method while postulating this hypothesis, but at a glance, I noticed a possible important fact that I missed during my arduous journey into the enlightenment of better photography.

All along I thought I was on the proper road; that the road I was traveling was somewhat the righteous road to photographic Nirvana. But then fate decides to wake me and lead me yet to another path. Just when I thought I was walking the proper route.

All this time I spent learning and researching about cameras, lenses, flashes and other accessories a sudden warm thought entered my now capacious mind, filled with facts, charts and figures. Copiously gathering every minute detail of every aspect of very thing mechanical and functional, I have not seen the forest for the trees.

Then, while making the proper calculations for the optimal aperture for the correct depth of field desired for a certain exposure, the details became insignificant. As if a sudden, but warm ambiance has surrounded me as the right side of my brain dominates its sinister counterpart, an epiphany came to me.

Regardless of the timeless amounts of feverishly maintaining my inventories of lenses, bodies, flashes and other gadgets, the thought invaded my mind. An idea so foreign, so extrinsic, so outside of design, yet was so natural and guileless that I would not have been able to conjure it with all the sorcerers from the time of old.

My observations have lead me to open my eyes to the fact that one bit of information was missing from the text of many of the splendid, enchanting myriads of galleries that I viewed. At first realization I speculated that perhaps an oversight has occurred. For as it stands to reason that people who produce such exquisite photographs would of course share their love for the equipment that they used, the tools responsible to create the various masterpieces displayed proudly in their web-based fairs.

I continued to other galleries, one after another. What I expected to have volumes of information of the tools and the mechanics involved, there were none. My cynicism starts to overtake me and I started to ponder perhaps this was some sort of arrogance or parsimonious agenda of the photographer to niggardly stow the secrets of wonderful photography to themselves.

Returning to this faithful forum I see similar quality exposures and noticed that people are more than forthcoming when asked about the techniques and equipment used. So I disregarded my previous thoughts of some dastardly, conniving clandestine operation to keep the knowledge of great photographs from the masses.

This leads me to cogitate yet another possibility. Perhaps the devil is in the details. The greatest aspect to this wonderful past time of ours, though lost in the pages of catalogs and talks of various brands and equipment lies mainly on the photographs themselves! That the fruit of the activity of taking a picture is really that simple and naive. Taking pictures.

WOW what a concept! ;):p I hope you enjoyed that as much I, writing it.

[FlyingPhotog]

Vicodin or Percaset? <j/k>

You're absolutely right. The Measurbators, Pixel Peepers and Gear Freaks will do what they always do but three truths still hold up:

Shut up and shoot...
Enjoy the time spent shooting...
If you like it, it's a good photo...

The rest is noise.

[00silvergt]

Vicodin or Percaset? <j/k>

You're absolutely right. The Measurbators, Pixel Peepers and Gear Freaks will do what they always do but three truths still hold up:

Shut up and shoot...
Enjoy the time spent shooting...
If you like it, it's a good photo...

The rest is noise.

A little of both, please and pass the 420 while you're at it! ;)

I was inspired by a poster here who wanted to get rid of his 40D which he traded numerous times...now he wants a 5D. All the while everyone is telling him, dude it is your technique, shoot some pics...it is now 5 pages long! LOL:p:D;)

[kevin_c]

A little of both, please and pass the 420 while you're at it! ;)

I was inspired by a poster here who wanted to get rid of his 40D which he traded numerous times...now he wants a 5D. All the while everyone is telling him, dude it is your technique, shoot some pics...it is now 5 pages long! LOL:p:D;)

Yeah, I read that one as well :rolleyes: - I get as much enjoyment actually going out and taking pictures as I do seeing the results - Sure it's great to get a real 'keeper' but I just enjoy the act of taking them too.

I've gone back to using my film bodies more now, mainly because I find myself thinking about the shot rather than just 'snapping away' with my 20D.

[Jim G]

I think online forums have rather a high concentration of gear-heads... and while it's possible to be a gearhead and a photographer I think some people are more in it for the gear :)

And hey, each to their own.

It's interesting to go from hanging out with gearheads/techheads to hanging out with arty types who have no idea about the technical side of things... can be a real eye-opener when they pull out some awesome results.

[00silvergt]

I think online forums have rather a high concentration of gear-heads... and while it's possible to be a gearhead and a photographer I think some people are more in it for the gear :)

And hey, each to their own.

It's interesting to go from hanging out with gearheads/techheads to hanging out with arty types who have no idea about the technical side of things... can be a real eye-opener when they pull out some awesome results.

Or you can be both...I enjoy the technical side, I'm an engineer in mind, but also appreciate the talent and skill required to make a great photograph; artist at heart. I guess, I generally and genuinely love photography.;):oops:

[bacchanal]

When I'm not taking pictures, I'm almost always thinking about the details, the equipment, measurebating, pixel peeping, whatever you want to call it. However, when I'm behind the camera I generally do not let these things occupy my train of thought...or I should say, I'm at my best when I do not let these things take over my mind.
Ideally, I want to know my equipment inside and out, so the technical aspects of a shot become automatic during a shoot. When the artistic part of my brain composes a shot, I want the technical part to take over and create the best shot that I know how to. I'm not to that point yet, and I doubt that I will ever master this hobby...but it is something that I hope to continually strive to do. You can have it both ways I think.

[Cyth0n]

What an extraordinarily eloquent post. Thank you for taking the time. You are, of course, correct. If you trawl any photography forum, you will find endless debate over numbers, to the extent that you may start to believe that one photograph is quantifiably better than another. All of the best photographs that I've taken have been whilst shooting for pure enjoyment, without concious regard for numbers.

Numbers are a good place to start learning, but always remember that numbers don't take photographs.

[airfrogusmc]

Yep the internet seems to attract those more interested in gear. The only thing that matters is the finished photograph.

[jbergdoll]

One can have all the gear in the world and still suck at photography. The eye that can see the photographic outcome without a test shot or a LCD screen is the most valuable piece of equipment one can have in this quick to gear-gasm world of photography.

[00silvergt]

What an extraordinarily eloquent post. Thank you for taking the time. You are, of course, correct. If you trawl any photography forum, you will find endless debate over numbers, to the extent that you may start to believe that one photograph is quantifiably better than another. All of the best photographs that I've taken have been whilst shooting for pure enjoyment, without concious regard for numbers.

Numbers are a good place to start learning, but always remember that numbers don't take photographs.

Yep the internet seems to attract those more interested in gear. The only thing that matters is the finished photograph.

One can have all the gear in the world and still suck at photography. The eye that can see the photographic outcome without a test shot or a LCD screen is the most valuable piece of equipment one can have in this quick to gear-gasm world of photography.

Funny, and not to offend anyone who has their gearlist on their signature, its your prerogative...however just making the quick observation that those who are inclined to think that hardware is second to the human factor(except Cyth0n, again no offense) do not have a gear list in their signature. I personally have amassed a great deal of photography equipment, may not be more than some of you, but certainly more than some who have listed their equipment, some who even added things like a Giotto Rocket Blower to add fluff and weight to their equipment list. But I don't, because albeit I care about my equipment, in fact I'm very anal retentive about it since it cost me some blood and sweat, but I won't publish because it is my pictures that matter, not what I use.

Yes, I've seen and sometimes participated in the debates of one camera over another ad nauseam. I'm inclined to be technical, since what brings home the proverbial bacon deals with the technical side of life, but I also have an artistic side which can easily be disturbed by the nitpicking of semantics. LOL

[DocFrankenstein]

Such a long essay! Brevity is a virtue.

[Cyth0n]

Although I think that the artistic eye is more important than numbers, doesn't follow that numbers aren't important. To borrow your analogy, I don't believe that numbers and artistic intuition are seperate roads. Rather, they're the same road leading to 'photograpic Nirvana', and you need both to get all the way along it. However, on its own, your photographic intuition will get you much further.

To say they're seperate things would seem to suggest that the way to take the hypothetical 'perfect photograph' would be to forget everything you know about cameras and how they work. The real magic happens when you know the numbers so well that you don't even need to think about them. At that point, you can combine art and technology seamlessly to take the perfect photograph.

Sadly, I'm not there yet :D

[00silvergt]

Such a long essay! Brevity is a virtue.


It was meant to be long winded...a bit of surprise factor to it. Patience is also a virtue.;):p

[elader]

I love ooking through pbase's 'popular' galleries. So many fabulaius photographs and no lens discussions. Most of these guys are out there making art, not argueing about 5D vs 40D

[00silvergt]

I love ooking through pbase's 'popular' galleries. So many fabulaius photographs and no lens discussions. Most of these guys are out there making art, not argueing about 5D vs 40D


LOL Elader, I must check that place out!

[yogestee]

LOL Elader, I must check that place out!

Start here if you like.. :p

http://www.pbase.com/jurgentreue

[bacchanal]

Funny, and not to offend anyone who has their gearlist on their signature, its your prerogative...however just making the quick observation that those who are inclined to think that hardware is second to the human factor(except Cyth0n, again no offense) do not have a gear list in their signature. I personally have amassed a great deal of photography equipment, may not be more than some of you, but certainly more than some who have listed their equipment, some who even added things like a Giotto Rocket Blower to add fluff and weight to their equipment list. But I don't, because albeit I care about my equipment, in fact I'm very anal retentive about it since it cost me some blood and sweat, but I won't publish because it is my pictures that matter, not what I use.

Yes, I've seen and sometimes participated in the debates of one camera over another ad nauseam. I'm inclined to be technical, since what brings home the proverbial bacon deals with the technical side of life, but I also have an artistic side which can easily be disturbed by the nitpicking of semantics. LOL

I keep my gear list in my sig, so that people can see what I have experience with, which occasionally is relevant to a discussion. It isn't there for any bragging purpose or anything. That you mention "fluff" and "weight" when talking about gear lists suggests that you are seeing things from your own skewed perspective...not to mention the tone of your writing...semantics aside.
I do happen to think that the artistic factor is more significant than the technical. However, I believe that an artist tends to have technique...and in photography most technique tends to involve a little bit of tech (among other things). Whether you're using a pinhole camera or a digital MF it would seem that it is generally beneficial (artistically) if some thought is put into the technical process at some point. It doesn't have to enter your mind during the shot...but it is there in the back of your mind.

[nicksan]

I have one of those gearlist just like many others here do. Don't get me wrong, I am not offended at all, however I thought your commentary was rather interesting. (My head started to hurt after I read your original post.:D;))

Yes, "Digital" complicates things. The fact is photography is much more accessible these days. You have all kinds of people with DSLR's. I am one of those people that entered the world of photography world "Digitally". I am a gearhead. I like computers. I like music studio equipment. I like photography equipment. Anything I do, I like to collect anything related to it.

Does that inhibit me artisically in any way? I don't think that is the case at all. Frankly, I don't see the connection between having something simple as a gear list and artistic ability. In fact a lot of us have gearlists so when we enter discussions about gear (yes...them things called cameras and lenses:D) b/c we can keep things relevant...talk about gear we own now or used to own.

Yes, it's what's behind the camera that counts...I have read that hundreds of times.

I think showing off gear is elitist thinking. I also think discarding the importance of gear is elitist thinking.

There is nothing wrong with discussing the technical aspects of photography and the gear associated with it. There is nothing wrong with having or not having a gear list. There is nothing wrong about debating about the 40D vs. 5D.

What's wrong is dimissing it all as "gear-head" talk, stereo-typing people on the internet posting in forums such as this on (and that includes every last POTN member here) as "more gear oriented than not"...

Ooops...that turned into a rant. I apologize.


And no...I have a gear list and I am not offended by your comments.:D;):lol:


Funny, and not to offend anyone who has their gearlist on their signature, its your prerogative...however just making the quick observation that those who are inclined to think that hardware is second to the human factor(except Cyth0n, again no offense) do not have a gear list in their signature. I personally have amassed a great deal of photography equipment, may not be more than some of you, but certainly more than some who have listed their equipment, some who even added things like a Giotto Rocket Blower to add fluff and weight to their equipment list. But I don't, because albeit I care about my equipment, in fact I'm very anal retentive about it since it cost me some blood and sweat, but I won't publish because it is my pictures that matter, not what I use.

Yes, I've seen and sometimes participated in the debates of one camera over another ad nauseam. I'm inclined to be technical, since what brings home the proverbial bacon deals with the technical side of life, but I also have an artistic side which can easily be disturbed by the nitpicking of semantics. LOL

[00silvergt]

I keep my gear list in my sig, so that people can see what I have experience with, which occasionally is relevant to a discussion. It isn't there for any bragging purpose or anything. That you mention "fluff" and "weight" when talking about gear lists suggests that you are seeing things from your own skewed perspective...not to mention the tone of your writing...semantics aside.
I do happen to think that the artistic factor is more significant than the technical. However, I believe that an artist tends to have technique...and in photography most technique tends to involve a little bit of tech.

I am sort of a cynic naturally, again I don't mean to offend, but when you look at some gear list that includes things like a rocket blower and a SB724...that's just silly. But I apologize again if you are offended, I don't mean to strike just because you have a gear list, again that's your choice, I don't disagree nor agree I was just making a quick observation, no need to get bent out of shape. It is not not that serious, brother. I wasn't commenting about bragging rights or anything like that I just wanted say that listing your gear was somewhat indicative on what are your priorities. Maybe?

[S.Horton]

I have no idea what you just said, but it sounded about right. ;)

[nicksan]

You sure you don't agree or disagree?
It sounds to me you already have a pretty strong opinion on this matter.

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with listing something like a rocket blower in a gear list. There are going to be people who have never heard or used such a thing and to that person it might be very relevant that the person responding does own one, is using it often, and knows whe he or she is talking about.

To me, that is the importance of a gear list.

You want to talk about SanDisk Extreme III CF cards? Bam. I've got them. what do you want to know.

Very relevant and useful to me...but again, I am a gearhead...and I am not offended by your comments.;););)

I am sort of a cynic natural, again I don't mean to offend, but when you look at some gear list that includes things like a rocket blower and a SB724...that's just silly. But I apologize again if you are offended, I don't mean to strike just because you have a gear list, again that's your choice, I don't disagree nor agree I was just making a quick observation, no need to get bent out of shape. It is not not that serious brother. I wasn't commenting about bragging rights or anything like that I just wanted say that listing your gear was somewhat indicative on what are your priorities. Maybe?

[AndreaBFS]

I don't mind the gear obsession except when it's in the context of, "I can't get any good pictures, so I need to upgrade/get new gear in order to improve my photography." I'm all for having the best and latest, but for the right reasons. In my opinion, "getting more expensive/better gear will improve my ability to get good pictures" is not the right reason.

I also don't like the way other people with SLRs strain to look at what kind of camera I have or stare at me when I'm taking pictures. It wouldn't have bothered me one bit, but after being here a while, I feel self-conscious because I wonder if they're doing it to make sure my gear isn't as nice as theirs. I'm probably wrong about that, but before I got here I never would have imagined the depth of the gear obsession.

[Mum2J&M]

And then there are those of us who've had a tremendous amount of gear - three maybe four times - who will NEVER live it down. I am passionate about photography. Have been for ages. Started as a pre-teen. For me, it's more about deciding on the right focal length, etc., etc., etc. and not being able to DECIDE. Once you've had it, you sometimes want it back... or you wonder what else is out there. It's not always about bragging rights, or about sucking as a photographer and assuming it's going to turn your world around. Gear does make a difference. Different strokes for different folks. If I couldn't have afforded what I have, I'd still be doing photography. No question about it. I pushed the limits with my gear, but feel I've learned a great deal more about what it has to offer. When I first started out with film, I had no idea what a "fast" lens was, or why I might prefer a prime to a zoom. I've never been a "gear head" either. Perhaps because I'm a female... who knows. But I've enjoyed the ride and plan to keep on shooting regardless of where I am with buying/trading, etc. I couldn't give a crap what anyone thinks about it as a 40-yr-old stay at home mom. The less conspicuous, the better to be honest.

[S.Horton]

If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad.

(Wait, someone said that already)

[salexande867]

I have a gear list and I appreciate that other do as well. I personally like to look at what other lenses, etc. people use. That is the best form of advertisment and I use it when determing what gear I want.
When I see a photographer on here that I think takes great shots, I look to see what gear they chose (because they obviously know what they are doing).

[airfrogusmc]

Well the true elitists would be showing this right?
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/deardorff/deardorff2.jpeg

[mantra_sone]

www.larajade.com

She uses a Rebel and a couple of lenses (60mm and 18-55 if I remember correctly).

She definitely has an eye that can overpower any gear any day of the week.

[slappy sam]

Totally agree. I got caught up in it for a while, then took a step back and now I don't go near the gear forums :P

I keep a simple gear list to let people know what I'm using. If they ask me why I didn't zoom in farther with my 70-200, its probably because I don't own one.

[artyboy]

i didnt have a gearlist until i posted a question and someone replied "perhaps you could list out your gear in your signature...". regardless, no offence taken. but its useful to have a gearlist, esp when going thru the gallery section with no camera/lens details captioned below the photos.

[00silvergt]

You sure you don't agree or disagree?
It sounds to me you already have a pretty strong opinion on this matter.

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with listing something like a rocket blower in a gear list. There are going to be people who have never heard or used such a thing and to that person it might be very relevant that the person responding does own one, is using it often, and knows whe he or she is talking about.

To me, that is the importance of a gear list.

You want to talk about SanDisk Extreme III CF cards? Bam. I've got them. what do you want to know.

Very relevant and useful to me...but again, I am a gearhead...and I am not offended by your comments.;););)

First of all I'm glad you weren't offended. That's right, I neither agree nor disagree about someone having their gearlist. Again, it is not that serious! I have my opinion on listing a rocket blower, sure, that's right. I think it is silly and frivolous. As much I as respect your opinion and others for having a gearlist, respect mine to think that it is silly to list a rocketblower.

Using your example, if I wanted to learn about the Extreme III, well to be frank, I would ask my engineer friends at Sandisk. (Which btw, I'm getting another 8GB Extreme III for $60 bux shipped woohoo!). But yes I see your point however, I don't function that way, I won't browse people's gearlist to ask them about an item I am interested in. At the very most I would look at the gear list if I see something like a wide angle shot with a lens that I have in the archives and check to see if they shot it with a larger sensor. But that's rare.

[S.Horton]

www.larajade.com (http://www.larajade.com)

She uses a Rebel and a couple of lenses (60mm and 18-55 if I remember correctly).

She definitely has an eye that can overpower any gear any day of the week.

Wow -- There's some talent.:cool:

[majkid]

Vicodin or Percaset? <j/k>

You're absolutely right. The Measurbators, Pixel Peepers and Gear Freaks will do what they always do but three truths still hold up:

Shut up and shoot...
Enjoy the time spent shooting...
If you like it, it's a good photo...

The rest is noise.

Hi Flyingphotog.

Couple of things.

a) Nice site. Followed the links and had a look.
b)I agree with your last comments 'Shut up and shoot' etc
c) Impressive set of gear. L Glass etc. Not exactly budget gear. If you live by your reasoning then why L Glass and not standard/budget.

Just thought I would ask :)

[Glenn NK]

Gear List - an ego booster or something practical?

Sometimes there is a question asked that I can answer, or at least help with somewhat, and often the answer will be based on an equipment solution.

For example, it would be pointless (and rather ignorant) to suggest that the OP buy a good tripod when they have a better one in their gear list than the one I have.;)

[digirebelva]

Hi Flyingphotog.

Couple of things.

a) Nice site. Followed the links and had a look.
b)I agree with your last comments 'Shut up and shoot' etc
c) Impressive set of gear. L Glass etc. Not exactly budget gear. If you live by your reasoning then why L Glass and not standard/budget.

Just thought I would ask :)

Probably for the same reason I got an L glass..after using some of the "budget gear" and being really dissapointed in the shot quality on most shots (i.e. soft, vignetting, etc.) I did my research, and got one..now if the picture quality sucks its not the equipment, its me..its what I did or did not do....;). Thats not to say all budget gear is bad...but I guess the old saying goes at least as it pertains to glass....you get what you pay for..having used both I agree with the saying.

[majkid]

Probably for the same reason I got an L glass..after using some of the "budget gear" and being really dissapointed in the shot quality on most shots (i.e. soft, vignetting, etc.) I did my research, and got one..now if the picture quality sucks its not the equipment, its me..its what I did or did not do....;). Thats not to say all budget gear is bad...but I guess the old saying goes at least as it pertains to glass....you get what you pay for..having used both I agree with the saying.

Thanks for the reply.
Someone who understands that the gear you use does have an effect of the quality of image produced everything else being equal.:)

Mike

[nicksan]

See, it's this type of thing that gets to me.

OK, so you have a hookup at Sandisk. Most of us don't. By your standards, isn't that kind of similar to listing gear out on a gear list? To point out hookups you have at Sandisk, etc?

My point was even something mundane as a rocket blower or a sandisk card listed in a gearlist can potentially be useful to someone else and that's the spirit of the gear forums. To share information, to help each other out. Even talk about lenses, cameras just for the fun of it. Call it what you like. Being a "gearhead". For me, I enjoy photography and I enjoy talking about the gear used to take photos. I really fail to see what the big deal is.

All that talk about how "I never visit the gear thread" is completely elitist thinking. So you want a new lens. What do you do then? You want a 300mm f2.8L IS. It costs almost $4000. Do you just go out and buy it because "it's not the gear that counts" or do you talk to people who own the lens and see if you feel comfortable with the $4000 you are about to spend?

Gearlists make it easy to locate folks who have the lens, ask them questions or check out their galleries.

Seems pretty logical to me.

BTW, I'm still not offended.:lol::lol::lol:


Using your example, if I wanted to learn about the Extreme III, well to be frank, I would ask my engineer friends at Sandisk. (Which btw, I'm getting another 8GB Extreme III for $60 bux shipped woohoo!). But yes I see your point however, I don't function that way, I won't browse people's gearlist to ask them about an item I am interested in. At the very most I would look at the gear list if I see something like a wide angle shot with a lens that I have in the archives and check to see if they shot it with a larger sensor. But that's rare.

[liquidhands]

First of all I'm glad you weren't offended. That's right, I neither agree nor disagree about someone having their gearlist. Again, it is not that serious! I have my opinion on listing a rocket blower, sure, that's right. I think it is silly and frivolous. As much I as respect your opinion and others for having a gearlist, respect mine to think that it is silly to list a rocketblower.

Using your example, if I wanted to learn about the Extreme III, well to be frank, I would ask my engineer friends at Sandisk. (Which btw, I'm getting another 8GB Extreme III for $60 bux shipped woohoo!). But yes I see your point however, I don't function that way, I won't browse people's gearlist to ask them about an item I am interested in. At the very most I would look at the gear list if I see something like a wide angle shot with a lens that I have in the archives and check to see if they shot it with a larger sensor. But that's rare.


Have to agree with nicksan.... also, it isn't polite to call ppl silly and firvolous just because you don't agree with their choices... that kinda makes you elitist.

[00silvergt]

See, it's this type of thing that gets to me.

OK, so you have a hookup at Sandisk. Most of us don't. By your standards, isn't that kind of similar to listing gear out on a gear list? To point out hookups you have at Sandisk, etc?

My point was even something mundane as a rocket blower or a sandisk card listed in a gearlist can potentially be useful to someone else and that's the spirit of the gear forums. To share information, to help each other out. Even talk about lenses, cameras just for the fun of it. Call it what you like. Being a "gearhead". For me, I enjoy photography and I enjoy talking about the gear used to take photos. I really fail to see what the big deal is.

All that talk about how "I never visit the gear thread" is completely elitist thinking. So you want a new lens. What do you do then? You want a 300mm f2.8L IS. It costs almost $4000. Do you just go out and buy it or do you talk to people who own the lens and see if you feel comfortable with the $4000 you are about to spend?

Gearlists make it easy to locate folks who have the lens, ask them questions or check out their galleries.

Seems pretty logical to me.

BTW, I'm still not offended.:lol::lol::lol:

LOL, great, I really don't want to offend you or anyone else. Two adults can get into a heated argument without hurting people.

Wait, so your are saying it would be prudent for me to indicate I know engineers at Sandisk? Why don't I list all my contacts and maybe you guys can hit me up? Dude, that's just downright silly! (no offense,;):p).

If someone needs to know something about Sandisk Extreme III cards, then they simply need to post in the Gear Forum and say, "I need information on the Sandisk 8GB Extreme III." Then, folks like myself, will chime in and say, "What do you want to know? I know a guy who knows a guy who works at Sandisk." LOL Right?

Come on, Elitist? I never said I never visit the gear column, I even admitted in many of my posts that I'm somewhat technical and gear oriented.

Okay, I see I need to redirect this thread. Like the other thread about a similar issue, people are now going off in different tangents. I am guilty of this and to a certain extent deserve some of the flame for my quick statement about my observation regarding gearlists. I will reiterate what I said, it is your prerogative, it doesn't bug me or even if it does, that's my problem. Notice I personally don't have one. I never will. I want to be remembered for my photographs not my equipment.

Of course, I will talk to people before dropping $4000, heck I will talk to people before dropping $40. Again, Nicksan, I DO visit the gear section and even participate in the discussions.

But my point when I started this thread was that I (a technical person; gear head- pseudo or maybe former) came to a realization while pursuing my goals of becoming the best photographer I can be, that many of the great photographers online- here and outside do not post their gear. I started to figure out that maybe, just maybe the camera (all inclusive equipment, lenses, bodies, 8GB Extreme III's) may not be as important
as I originally thought. I, probably like many photographer gear head would almost always initiate a conversation with the many photographers I've met in person about equipment and never really figured out, until now why many of them were really not all that interested. They would rather speak of such things as composition, lighting and contrast etc. Which before I thought, was not as important as using the best camera I can buy. Well, not anymore.

The more I learn about this hobby, the more I learn that it is really about Photography and not the myriads of features or the next great camera Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, or Olympus would be releasing. I'm not an elitist by any definition of the word, just enlightened.;) Buds?

[00silvergt]

Have to agree with nicksan.... also, it isn't polite to call ppl silly and firvolous just because you don't agree with their choices... that kinda makes you elitist.

So wait, I never called people silly, just the idea of posting a rocket blower in the gear list. Do you think that posting a rocket blower is silly? I do. But that's my opinion.

[nicksan]

Wait, so your are saying it would be prudent for me to indicate I know engineers at Sandisk? Why don't I list all my contacts and maybe you guys can hit me up? Dude, that's just downright silly! (no offense,;):p). If someone needs to know something about Sandisk Extreme III cards, then they simply need to post in the Gear Forum and say, "I need information on the Sandisk 8GB Extreme III." Then, folks like myself, will chime in and say, "What do you want to know? I know a guy who knows a guy who works at Sandisk." LOL Right?


The whole point is that if someone has questions about Sandisk cards then the best place to get help is from people who use them within a photography context...in this case in the gear forums here. Nothing silly about that. Perhaps YOU don't need such advice from here b/c of your hookup at Sandisk but I think it's pretty safe to say most people, including myself, don't have such hookups. I just find it interesting that you chose to disclose that particular hookup in response to my example.


Come on, Elitist? I never said I never visit the gear column, I even admitted in many of my posts that I'm somewhat technical and gear oriented.

Okay, I see I need to redirect this thread. Like the other thread about a similar issue, people are now going off in different tangents. I am guilty of this and to a certain extent deserve some of the flame for my quick statement about my observation regarding gearlists. I will reiterate what I said, it is your prerogative, it doesn't bug me or even if it does, that's my problem. Notice I personally don't have one. I never will. I want to be remembered for my photographs not my equipment.


Yes, another elitist-like comment. That's a given. The end result of all of the gear we own is to produce a photo. No need to drive that through...


Of course, I will talk to people before dropping $4000, heck I will talk to people before dropping $40. Again, Nicksan, I DO visit the gear section and even participate in the discussions.

But my point when I started this thread was that I (a technical person; gear head- pseudo or maybe former) came to a realization while pursuing my goals of becoming the best photographer I can be, that many of the great photographers online- here and outside do not post their gear. I started to figure out that maybe, just maybe the camera (all inclusive equipment, lenses, bodies, 8GB Extreme III's) may not be as important
as I originally thought. I, probably like many photographer gear head would almost always initiate a conversation with the many photographers I've met in person about equipment and never really figured out, until now why many of them were really not all that interested. They would rather speak of such things as composition, lighting and contrast etc. Which before I thought, was not as important as using the best camera I can buy. Well, not anymore.

The more I learn about this hobby, the more I learn that it is really about Photography and not the myriads of features or the next great camera Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, or Olympus would be releasing. I'm not an elitist by any definition of the word, just enlightened.;) Buds?

I apologize if I sounded like I was singling you out. I wasn't Some of my response was targeted to the general audience, particularly those who dismiss people who talk about gear as mere gearheads.

Contrary to what you wrote, I have met many photographers who are actually very interested and excited about talking about gear they have, talk about what aperture was used and for what reason, etc. I make absolutely no judgments on their abilities based on that. Yes, I am sure there are those who care not to discuss about gear. I feel strongly that those who dismiss gear as mere gearhead talk are elitists.

I completely agree that it is the person behind the camera that is ultimately responsible for the end result. However we live in the world where the contribution of technology and gear is undeniable. Certainly there's a balance between the 2. Dismissing either would indeed be silly...

[nicksan]

This is the same reasoning as "with all due respect, I think you are an A-hole and I hate everything you stand for"...just because you qualify things with "with all due respect" doesn't mean it's OK.
(And yes, I took that idea from Talladega Nights:D:lol:)


So wait, I never called people silly, just the idea of posting a rocket blower in the gear list. Do you think that posting a rocket blower is silly? I do. But that's my opinion.

[00silvergt]

This is the same reasoning as "with all due respect, I think you are an A-hole and I hate everything you stand for"...just because you qualify things with "with all due respect" doesn't mean it's OK.
(And yes, I took that idea from Talladega Nights:D:lol:)

That's taking it way out of context and it is way too far. All that was said was, I think listing a Rocket Blower is silly...nothing more, not I hate anything or what someone stands for...that's too sensitive. I didn't mean that way, Maybe some people are just that much "thinner" (offended easily) but...

You think my statement about wanting to be remembered for my photographs instead of my gear is an elitist statement? Wow, we must speak different languages. Dude, this is a photography forum, how is it elitist to think that one should be remembered for their photos vs their gear?

Ok, well if that is the criteria of which an elitist is(by your definition), then I must say I fit, because I do emphasize and stand by my opinion that the most important aspect of photography is me and the pictures I produce, not my camera. I'm not dismissing it's fit in the scheme of things. A camera is a tool. It is important in regards to any tool, like a power driver, a rotohammer, Fluke Lan Analyzer, but it is most definitely not the dominant factor on what makes a photograph.

So you are also saying that I should post all my contacts so that you guys can see what and who I know to hit me up? You think there is nothing silly about that? Really? You're serious?

[00silvergt]

I completely agree that it is the person behind the camera that is ultimately responsible for the end result. However we live in the world where the contribution of technology and gear is undeniable. Certainly there's a balance between the 2. Dismissing either would indeed be silly...

So what are we really arguing about?
I never said that Tools are not important, but just it is not dominant. Yes, it would be silly.

[liquidhands]

That's taking it way out of context and it is way too far. All that was said was, I think listing a Rocket Blower is silly...nothing more, not I hate anything or what someone stands for...that's too sensitive. I didn't mean that way, Maybe some people are just that much "thinner" (offended easily) but...

You think my statement about wanting to be remembered for my photographs instead of my gear is an elitist statement? Wow, we must speak different languages. Dude, this is a photography forum, how is it elitist to think that one should be remembered for their photos vs their gear?

Ok, well if that is the criteria of which an elitist is(by your definition), then I must say I fit, because I do emphasize and stand by my opinion that the most important aspect of photography is me and the pictures I produce, not my camera. I'm not dismissing it's fit in the scheme of things. A camera is a tool. It is important in regards to any tool, like a power driver, a rotohammer, Fluke Lan Analyzer, but it is most definitely not the dominant factor on what makes a photograph.

So you are also saying that I should post all my contacts so that you guys can see what and who I know to hit me up? You think there is nothing silly about that? Really? You're serious?

bleh, it wasn't out of context. You're basically saying ppl are stupid for putting blowers in their gear list... then you say you're not judging. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, just disagreeing with your delivery.

not everyone has a contact at sandisk, so those ppl that don't might find it informative and helpful to see that nicksan has some. (same with the blower by the way).

The tool is very important in any hobby, or occupation.

Don't think you should put anything in your sig... looks fine.

the elitist attitide that I saw was...paraphrasing.... its silly to put gear in your sigs.... you're not sill, just the things you do and your need to show everyone your stuff.
have a nice day.

[00silvergt]

bleh, it wasn't out of context. You're basically saying ppl are stupid for putting blowers in their gear list... then you say you're not judging. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, just disagreeing with your delivery.

not everyone has a contact at sandisk, so those ppl that don't might find it informative and helpful to see that nicksan has some. (same with the blower by the way).

The tool is very important in any hobby, or occupation.

Don't think you should put anything in your sig... looks fine.

the elitist attitide that I saw was...paraphrasing.... its silly to put gear in your sigs.... you're not sill, just the things you do and your need to show everyone your stuff.
have a nice day.


See now you took things out of context. I'm the one with contacts at Sandisk, he told me that something like that should be on my sig. I think it would be silly for me to say/ publish people I know on my sig...In any case these are my contacts I can share to whom I want to share with right?

Okay, one more time...Putting a rocket blower in a gearlist, in my opinion is silly. Having a gearlist, I won't judge you if you do or not I merely made a quick observation. Even if I thought having a gearlist is stupid, that would be my issue and there is really no need to have a debate about that since it is MY opinion, I'm not saying it is a fact.

Again we are detaching from the main point of the thread. I've apologized amply to anyone who I admittedly while sharing my opinion of gearlist may have offended. That was my bad...but you don't need to crucify me for it since the crime doesn't fit the punishment!

The main point of this thread, I am the OP, is that I came to a realization, in my pursuit to be a better photographer that my previous emphasis on what gear I needed to have to improve upon my pictures were in error. I realized that most importantly, it is about Photography as a whole, not just my gear.

I don't know how to make this any clearer so that people will quit misunderstanding my position and purpose in starting this thread.

[nicksan]

See now you took things out of context. I'm the one with contacts at Sandisk, he told me that something like that should be on my sig. I think it would be silly for me to say/ publish people I know on my sig...In any case these are my contacts I can share to whom I want to share with right?


I am not sure where you got that impression. All I said was most of us don't have contacts at Sandisk. In response to my sandisk EXAMPLE, you brought up the fact that you have contacts at Sandisk. I just thought that was rather interesting. YOU DO have that benefit. The rest of us may not. That is why for the rest of us, it wouldn't be totally "silly" to put the types of CF cards we own on our gearlists so that those of us without the benefit of special contacts at Sandisk can discuss with eachother the merits and/or demerits of certain models.

Certainly, you would bring an added benefit to such discussion being that you do in fact have contacts at Sandisk, however I never asked nor insinuated that you put up contact information. That indeed would be silly, as you put it.

Your title "When it is about photography, not the camera." is a provocative one as you can clearly see! IMO, it is about both. Yes, the end result is the photo, and at least for me it always have been, and I suspect it always will be, however in this technological age, gear plays a big part of the equation.

Can you deny that?

[00silvergt]

I am not sure where you got that impression. All I said was most of us don't have contacts at Sandisk. In response to my sandisk EXAMPLE, you brought up the fact that you have contacts at Sandisk. I just thought that was rather interesting. YOU DO have that benefit. The rest of us may not. That is why for the rest of us, it wouldn't be totally "silly" to put the types of CF cards we own on our gearlists so that those of us without the benefit of special contacts at Sandisk can discuss with eachother the merits and/or demerits of certain models.

Certainly, you would bring an added benefit to such discussion being that you do in fact have contacts at Sandisk, however I never asked nor insinuated that you put up contact information. That indeed would be silly, as you put it.

Your title "When it is about photography, not the camera." is a provocative one as you can clearly see! IMO, it is about both. Yes, the end result is the photo, and at least for me it always have been, and I suspect it always will be, however in this technological age, gear plays a big part of the equation.

Can you deny that?

Ok, I apologize I'm the one who misread your post. Sorry multitasking at work, and like they say, multitasking makes you stupid. LOL

We are actually agree more than we disagree Nicksan...I guess we can leave at that? Again, I was speaking of my personal realization about the hobby which was inspired mostly by the post about the 40D and 5D thing.

[airfrogusmc]

I'm not sure it (technology) plays any more a part than it did 30 year ago. Its different and its a part but its the photographer that makes all the desisions or should be making all the decisions. What camera to use in what situation, what lens to use, what ISO to use, what if any filter to use, what type of PP to use to get that great final print, how to frame the shot and what exposure, fstop, shutter speed will best suit the final image.

[00silvergt]

I'm not sure it (technology) plays any more a part than it did 30 year ago. Its different but and its a part but its the photographer that makes all the desisions or should be making all the decisions. What camera to use in waht situation, what lens to use, what ISO to use, what if any filter to use, what type of PP to use to get that great final print, how to frame the shot and what exposure, fstop, shutter speed will best suit the final image.


Yes, the underlying basics of photography has been unchanged by technology since its inception. Exposure depends on the same basic principles as it did with the Deguerretype. With all its complex circuitry, expensive glass, composite materials, sophisticated meters, the camera is still only a lightproof box which captures light let in by a shutter or hole which exposes a light-sensitive medium.

What I gather from their rationalization is that technology seemingly has allowed more of the masses to pickup the hobby with little or no knowledge of the basics of the principles of photography. I believe that this is a fallacy and may be an over generalization of the actual facts.

Technology to a certain extent opened the doors to many people who has not learned the ideas of Aperture, Shutter Speed, Sensitivity, Depth of Field, etc. With innovations such as Aperture Value (Aperture Priority) and Time Value (Shutter Priority) and full Auto and P modes, it eases the introduction to the hobby.

However, as many of us has stated, these principles can not be avoided if one wishes to escalate their photographic prowess. So eventually one will have to learn how to control exposure, composition and depth of field, to name a few in order to become a more accomplished and effective photographer.

Wisdom dictates that the beginning of Wisdom or learning starts with the admission of ignorance. I am now at that point or believe I am. I am now willing to accept or admit that what I had previously thought was not necessary to become a great photographer is indeed mandatory learning. I have come to the point where it can no longer be ignored or avoided.

I think many initiates to the hobby feel that technology can somewhat compensate for what they lack in personal knowledge. I feel fortunate enough to have taken photo classes to identify what it is I don't know. This is a learning hobby and like most things worth doing, it takes a lot of time and learning. I don't think there are shortcuts to this road and if there were; they may actually lead the initiate towards the wrong path.

Perhaps there is some sort of security granted to the beginner from the various features that modern cameras present. I will submit however, that perhaps these conveniences were not added to compensate for the lack of certainty, (of course P mode and the Basic zones and full auto are certainly there for that purpose) but are merely tools to enhance the ability of the user with the basic knowledge.

I will use the analogy of Microsoft Word. Word 2003, to many they believe this allows them to somehow bypass the step of learning the basics of word processing or composition. However, when Word is used as a "typewriter" with the convenience of quickly editing for correction and creating copies. Word is not used to its full potential and most of its features are wasted. Word is a powerful word processing program which if used correctly, utilizing its tools can aid the learned professional on how to quickly and correctly create documents.

The AV and TV zones I believe are present to enhance, but not compensate for the abilities of the Photographer.

[nicksan]

Oh yeah...that one is a doozy...oh boy!;):D

Ok, I apologize I'm the one who misread your post. Sorry multitasking at work, and like they say, multitasking makes you stupid. LOL

We are actually agree more than we disagree Nicksan...I guess we can leave at that? Again, I was speaking of my personal realization about the hobby which was inspired mostly by the post about the 40D and 5D thing.

[00silvergt]

Oh yeah...that one is a doozy...oh boy!;):D


The funny thing is that it could have easily been finished, I mean logically, it should have been a closed subject with one or two posts. But for some reason, I guess many here think that a 40D was not "sufficient" for a beginner and what a 5D is??? Dude, I still can't get heads or tails of it.