I really hate to ask this question

[Mum2J&M]

as it seems it gets asked here at least 5 times a day.

But I'm wondering - in all honesty - and PLEASE be honest, how many of you (who've been following my roller coaster for awhile now) feel I would have a snowball's chance in hell in selling any photographs of other people's children or pets.

Thing is, it's time to go back to work in the fall. My kids will both be in school full-time and I'm left either going back to secretarial work for lawyers (I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy), or pursuing some sort of "career" in photography.

I'm not naive enough to think I could earn a living at it. Just really need to be able to chuck in some additional income - say $100-200 per week-ish.

There are many things I'd need to do (I think) such as calibrate my monitor and get a decent printer. Although perhaps I should have them printed elsewhere. It's all a wash at this point. Clearly, lots to iron out.

Guess what I'm saying is, honestly since I trust your opinions, should I push myself to be more assertive and feel confident enough in my work to offer it to others for money, or do you think there is too much more work to be done? I know there is always learning going on and I'm far from the talent/knowledge of many of you. But if I don't do something by say, September/October, I have a feeling I'll be much too involved in an office job and with my kids to have much time for photography in general.

Also, I'd welcome suggestions for other jobs in photography that are out there. I've tried interviewing to work for a studio, which didn't pan out (wishy washy about needing someone). I'm not a retail gal, so I'm not sure a camera shop would be right. I have worked for newspapers before, but in a writing capacity.

I understand running a business is difficult. I would actually prefer to work for someone else. But perhaps I could "market" myself at a relatively low price, or free of charge for the first couple of jobs.

I'm just throwing this out there because I quite honestly don't know where I'm going with this. I just know I enjoy photography a great deal and would like to keep learning about it. I am a relatively shy person, but if I have decent skills, I could find the guts.

I'm not going to jump off a bridge, or run for president based on your honest opinions, so please spill it. I really appreciate your help and input. I know I'm putting myself out there on a limb. :o

I should add, if you've made it this far, if you feel compelled to PM me, please do. I know not everyone is keen about responding to such questions on a public forum.

[FlyingPhotog]

If the "experts" are correct, running a photography business is 90% business and 10% photography. The question is, of that 90% that is the business side, how much of it is selling yourself?

I've never met a successful person (in any line of work) that wasn't 110% sure they're the absolute best person for a given job regardless of the fact that they may not have enough talent to fill a thimble. It's one thing to know you're capable but it's quite another thing to be able to convince someone else you can do the job.

I've been self-employed for nearly 25 years now and I could fill this forum by listing the number of things, places, events, etc that I've missed (parties, weddings, funerals, etc) because my choice was simple: Work and Eat or Play and Starve. Just my opinion but unless you're indepentantly wealthy or don't really need to work to survive, running a sole propietership (sp?) is not something you "dabble in."

To really be successful at something as an independant business person takes a 25/8 commitment for quite a while until you get established.

I wish you all the success and luck you can muster. Bottom Line: You'll never know for sure unless you try...

[S.Horton]

No polls, this is just you, your decision, your life.

If you won't go for it now, when?

You fail? SO WHAT. Enjoy the attempt, leap, just go -- it is later than it seems.

Put up a little poster in the local vet's office, offer an in-home or in-the-park shot of pet/owner, fixed cost, with a print, see what happens.

I haven't seen all of the work you've posted but, trust me, you are WAY better than the local pet photog I've seen. Way better. Way, way better.

Suck it up, go get 'em.

[cdifoto]

First things first; learn to use your kit and stop constantly swapping it around.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=488492

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=485726

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=481501

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=478329

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=473400

And that's just a start...

[S.Horton]

Shifty-fifty - missed that one! I thought you named it the fifty-fifty!

BTW, three responses, same vote -- small sample size, but a trend nonetheless.

[Mum2J&M]

Shifty-fifty - missed that one! I thought you named it the fifty-fifty!

BTW, three responses, same vote -- small sample size, but a trend nonetheless.

Yes, it was the fifty-fifty, but then I had a brain storm. Or a brain fart. Not sure which one. LOL. Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it btw. ;)

[Chet]

Do it for the rest of us wanna be's. Definetly more fun than your other choices.

[nicksan]

If you absolutely need a regular income (i.e. office job) then I would think long and hard before I make a decision to go full time into photography.

You need to think about how suddenly the hobby you enjoy becoming a responsibility. That's why I can't see myself doing anything like that in the near future since I shoot for the joy of it, and nothing more.

When you accept money, you have an obligation to deliver. That's just another place where you feel pressure and perhaps stress depending on the type of work you accept and the importance of that work.

I looked at your gallery several times and you have great stuff in there, no doubt. I can feel the joy from the photos. You absolutely LOVE your kids. It's clear by looking at the photos. It's not "work" for you.

Anyways, it's completely your decision, and should stay that way and not dictated by a poll here!

[Mum2J&M]

If you absolutely need a regular income (i.e. office job) then I would think long and hard before I make a decision to go full time into photography.

You need to think about how suddenly the hobby you enjoy becoming a responsibility. That's why I can't see myself doing anything like that in the near future since I shoot for the joy of it, and nothing more.

When you accept money, you have an obligation to deliver. That's just another place where you feel pressure and perhaps stress depending on the type of work you accept and the importance of that work.

I looked at your gallery several times and you have great stuff in there, no doubt. I can feel the joy from the photos. You absolutely LOVE your kids. It's clear by looking at the photos. It's not "work" for you.

Anyways, it's completely your decision, and should stay that way and not dictated by a poll here!

Thanks for your input. My Stepfather, an unbelieveable nature photographer who's traveled the world and sold much of his work, said he'd never do it for a living because it would take away the enjoyment. I guess a lot of it could be very hard - not only the photography itself, but dealing with difficult clients, etc.

Maybe part of what's so appealing to me is photographing other people's young children as mine are growing up. I can no longer capture those precious moments, but would love to capture them for someone else. I think I'd feel a lot of pride in that having had the experience myself. Does that make any sense?

Photography does seem like an almost impossible field to "break into" unless you've had a thousand years of experience and know just about everything about every aspect of the technicalities of photography while being able to see things no one else can and capture that image to make others see it the way you do. Extremely competitive too.

Although I've got a long way to go, I get concerned because I've always abandoned things because I felt I wasn't good enough. I just gave up. Probably why, after seven years of college, I'm still not landing a career I enjoy. It's always been paycheck to paycheck. The only jobs I ever enjoyed were for my college newspaper, a major Boston newspaper, and a small, local paper in Boston. But, at the time, I was paying my own rent and had no other income. Go figure.

[eddarr]

$100 - $200 a week. That is pocket change. You can get that doing odd jobs.

My suggestion to at least get you started is to work on getting some repetitive business. It's hard to get a wedding or portrait work, you spend as much time trying to find the work as you do taking the picture. Look for some jobs that you can do repeatedly for people. For instance, photos of homes for real estate agents for the MLS list. I know, I know it is crap work. But depending on where you live there may be enough work to keep you surprisingly busy. It's actually quite easy and very forgiving. The pay is not great but if you get the agents you can make $200 a day without even trying.

This is just one idea. But you get the idea. If it is about making money with photography sometimes you have to find ways to pay the bills while you work to get that National Geographic photo shoot. Anything that will bring you a consistent weekly income will pay better than that one big score.

But most of all make a decision and go full speed to make it happen.

[Mum2J&M]

$100 - $200 a week. That is pocket change. You can get that doing odd jobs.

My suggestion to at least get you started is to work on getting some repetitive business. It's hard to get a wedding or portrait work, you spend as much time trying to find the work as you do taking the picture. Look for some jobs that you can do repeatedly for people. For instance, photos of homes for real estate agents for the MLS list. I know, I know it is crap work. But depending on where you live there may be enough work to keep you surprisingly busy. It's actually quite easy and very forgiving. The pay is not great but if you get the agents you can make $200 a day without even trying.

This is just one idea. But you get the idea. If it is about making money with photography sometimes you have to find ways to pay the bills while you work to get that National Geographic photo shoot. Anything that will bring you a consistent weekly income will pay better than that one big score.

Actually - I had considered real estate. When we were trying to sell our house, I asked if the realtor wanted me to take the photographs for the brochure. He did use one of them. As silly as that is. LOL. I don't have a wide angle at the moment though. I also have been asked to take photos of my husband's co-worker's family. And I offered to take some food pics for a restaurant, but the guy's sister already did it. My son's teacher has asked me to take some pics of their class. Are these the types of things you mean? Things like that, if 'steady' enough, would suffice. It's just enough to help us squeeze by until we can refinance the house. The law firms are pretty easy money, but I get ZERO satisfaction from working there.

[Mum2J&M]

What did you mean by "agents"? Thanks.

[eddarr]

The other idea is car dealerships. You see where I'm headed with these ideas. Anybody that needs pictures of something all the time. It won't bring you satisfaction but if it allows time with the family who cares. How hard is it to walk around a car dealership and take pictures of their cars. Set up an action and email them all the photos. Maybe it only pays $200 but it only took you 3 or 4 hours.

I did all the jobs that I thought were important. Running construction companies, starting companies from scratch. I gave up a lot of zero's but I am much happier doing less stressful jobs.

[Mum2J&M]

Interesting. Thanks for that.

[eddarr]

What did you mean by "agents"? Thanks.

Real estate agents or agencies. Are you in a highly populated area? If there are a lot of houses on the market they all need pictures of them. Many agencies would rather hire 1 person to take pictures rather than have the sales agents do it (because they suck at taking pictures). In Las Vegas there are 25,000 houses on the MLS. Get one or two agencies using you and they will keep you as busy as you would like. Around here it pays about $75 per house. Again, I know that's crap but I can devote 1 day a week to it and shot about 7 or 8 houses a day.

[Mum2J&M]

No - not crap. Think it's a good start actually. Keeps me doing what I enjoy.

[LBaldwin]

Starting a business is easy keeping it going is never easy. There have been times when 100-200 would have been a good week for me.

Talent is not enough, you have to have sales skills, a tough hide and stay with it when times get tough. There are so many things you need to get started the least of which is gear. Does your husband back you 1000%. If not it will be tough. My wife backs my business and I back hers. 1000% no questions asked.

Once you have exhausted your family and friends for paid gigs then the tough part begins, challenging the other shooters in your area, pricing without undercutting them and making a profit on each and every shoot.

But to answer your question, sure you can. Bitchy brides, whiney Moms and Grandmas and complaining exec are in your future...

You start with a Cost of Doing Business. That is : everything that you currenly pay for but now want to attribute to your business as a cost. Websites, gear, travel, advertising, electricity, clothes etc. I think you will find it is not so easy. But the first time you get paid for your work it makes all the crap you tale melt away.

Good luck...

[FlyingPhotog]

The other idea is car dealerships. You see where I'm headed with these ideas. Anybody that needs pictures of something all the time. It won't bring you satisfaction but if it allows time with the family who cares. How hard is it to walk around a car dealership and take pictures of their cars. Set up an action and email them all the photos. Maybe it only pays $200 but it only took you 3 or 4 hours.

I did all the jobs that I thought were important. Running construction companies, starting companies from scratch. I gave up a lot of zero's but I am much happier doing less stressful jobs.

The Car Dealership idea would be much more problematic than you might think.

The manufacturers pay big, big bucks to ad agencies to shoot running footage and stills of their cars. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a major maker dealer who would need any kind of promotional material for their line of cars. It's all been provided by "Madsion Avenue" and Hollyweird...

[FlyingPhotog]

Starting a business is easy keeping it going is never easy. There have been times when 100-200 would have been a good week for me.

What's the old line: "The fastest way to make a million dollars doing [insert business] is to start with two million..."

[eddarr]

I'm not going to argue that car dealerships are not a great way to build your photography business. We all know that they aren't.

National advertisements are obviously done by ad firms. But pick up your Sunday paper. All of those photos of cars sitting on a lot are done by someone local. Usually it is one of the salesman. But if you can convince them that you can provide a better service there may be a market for it. Convincing them and actually making money is the hard part.

[FlyingPhotog]

I'm not going to argue that car dealerships are not a great way to build your photography business. We all know that they aren't.

National advertisements are obviously done by ad firms. But pick up your Sunday paper. All of those photos of cars sitting on a lot are done by someone local. Usually it is one of the salesman. But if you can convince them that you can provide a better service there may be a market for it. Convincing them and actually making money is the hard part.

How True .. How True...

[theflyingkiwi]

the answer is simple

Stop making polls and go with your gut

[Mum2J&M]

Ok, I'm not trying to become the next best photographer for National Geographic here. I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. I also understand that running a business can be a huge PITA. I worked at a small local paper and was there with the owner from around 9am to 10pm every day. I did everything from seeking out advertisers, to writing, to photography, to writing, to police blogging, to the actual layout. Exhausting. But rewarding.This is why I am asking these questions. I've also mentioned I would prefer to work for someone else. This is one of those ridiculously impossible fields to get into. There is no "entry-level" and it's all very subjective. Like everything else, you need to be a good BS artist. Yes, I could quite easily bounce back into the office work and bring home a few bucks every week. If I'm going to be miserable anyway, I'd much rather at least be learning something that will help me attain my goals and not someone else's.

[BenyBoy]

I have been self employed for almost 10 years, and succesfully self employed for 8 years. All it takes has been already mentioned:

To really be successful at something as an independant business person takes a 25/8 commitment for quite a while until you get established.

Be brave and go for it. You will have no regreats if you fail if you really tried hard.

Best of luck

[td67mustang]

I dont know you from a can of paint but....

Why not do something that you only have to do 1-3 days a week and dedicate the rest to photography. At minimum this still gives you 4 days a week to shoot, maybe more. At lease you wont regret not giving it a try and if it doesnt work out then so be it. BTW I voted get a job doing something in photography, maybe your skill set will lend itself to something you have yet to shoot. Best of Luck!

[LBaldwin]

I think you should at least look into to see what the setup is for the area you live in.
Most require a business license, somtimes a fire inspection of your work area etc.

Along with this is a resale permit and tax ID if needed. Most usually set it up as a sole proprietership to start and use a cash method for your accounting method.

If you need help getting setup just give me a buzz.

[sevillafox]

I dont know you from a can of paint but....

Why not do something that you only have to do 1-3 days a week and dedicate the rest to photography. At minimum this still gives you 4 days a week to shoot, maybe more. At lease you wont regret not giving it a try and if it doesnt work out then so be it. BTW I voted get a job doing something in photography, maybe your skill set will lend itself to something you have yet to shoot. Best of Luck!

FWIW this is some good advice. Earn the money you need to doing something you may not like and enjpy the days you have doing what you love. Eventually, with determination, you can get rid of the crappy job and be a success with what you enjoy.

[slappy sam]

I say go for it, sounds like you don't have much to lose.

Your photos are good but you need to concentrate on improving your photography and not your gear list. This might sound harsh, but I've seen a lot of your posts and most of the ones I see are complaining about gear. I think that you should try to understand that while the gear does help, you can do a lot with a little. I am sure that you can produce professional quality work with any canon dslr, the 30d vs 40d argument is a moot point. Go with whichever you are comfortable with.

I would strongly suggest shooting film with a full manual camera, manual focus 50mm prime or something, and concentrate on using that gear and improving your photographic skills. Your photography is good but your getting very caught up in gear. Remember why you began, or at least, why I hope you began photography. For me it was not to have the latest greatest camera, but to capture emotion, memories, and make art.

I am sure that you can make 100-200 a week with photography, and your work IS very good.

Also, don't rely on the forum to tell you what to do. Even though it looks like they are telling you the same thing :D

[Mum2J&M]

I say go for it, sounds like you don't have much to lose.

Your photos are good but you need to concentrate on improving your photography and not your gear list. This might sound harsh, but I've seen a lot of your posts and most of the ones I see are complaining about gear. I think that you should try to understand that while the gear does help, you can do a lot with a little. I am sure that you can produce professional quality work with any canon dslr, the 30d vs 40d argument is a moot point. Go with whichever you are comfortable with.

I would strongly suggest shooting film with a full manual camera, manual focus 50mm prime or something, and concentrate on using that gear and improving your photographic skills. Your photography is good but your getting very caught up in gear. Remember why you began, or at least, why I hope you began photography. For me it was not to have the latest greatest camera, but to capture emotion, memories, and make art.

I am sure that you can make 100-200 a week with photography, and your work IS very good.

Also, don't rely on the forum to tell you what to do. Even though it looks like they are telling you the same thing :D

I started with a Nikon FG in the mid-80s. I actually found it easier without all the bells and whistles. Film got way to expensive for a starving student, so I quit at it. Did a little more for some newspapers (just basic with little skill) with film as well. And, yes, I began for the images - not for the gear. Just because I switched around all the time doesn't mean I am a gear head - just that I seriously couldn't make up my mind after having so many decent lenses. As for the 40D, I am determined to make it work - as I've said - just takes some getting used to. I agree that I can't base all my decisions on the forum. Just needed some feedback from those who are in the know. People I know tell me to pursue it, but I realize they have little experience in the field, so I'm not sure, even though it's nice to hear, how much truth is in it.

[slappy sam]

Meh, just pick a lens and go for it. They are all good :D

[sevillafox]

Meh, just pick a lens and go for it. They are all good :D

...provided you know how to use them and your camera.

[GilesGuthrie]

as it seems it gets asked here at least 5 times a day.

But I'm wondering - in all honesty - and PLEASE be honest, how many of you (who've been following my roller coaster for awhile now) feel I would have a snowball's chance in hell in selling any photographs of other people's children or pets.

Thing is, it's time to go back to work in the fall. My kids will both be in school full-time and I'm left either going back to secretarial work for lawyers (I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy), or pursuing some sort of "career" in photography.

I'm not naive enough to think I could earn a living at it. Just really need to be able to chuck in some additional income - say $100-200 per week-ish.

There are many things I'd need to do (I think) such as calibrate my monitor and get a decent printer. Although perhaps I should have them printed elsewhere. It's all a wash at this point. Clearly, lots to iron out.

Guess what I'm saying is, honestly since I trust your opinions, should I push myself to be more assertive and feel confident enough in my work to offer it to others for money, or do you think there is too much more work to be done? I know there is always learning going on and I'm far from the talent/knowledge of many of you. But if I don't do something by say, September/October, I have a feeling I'll be much too involved in an office job and with my kids to have much time for photography in general.

Also, I'd welcome suggestions for other jobs in photography that are out there. I've tried interviewing to work for a studio, which didn't pan out (wishy washy about needing someone). I'm not a retail gal, so I'm not sure a camera shop would be right. I have worked for newspapers before, but in a writing capacity.

I understand running a business is difficult. I would actually prefer to work for someone else. But perhaps I could "market" myself at a relatively low price, or free of charge for the first couple of jobs.

I'm just throwing this out there because I quite honestly don't know where I'm going with this. I just know I enjoy photography a great deal and would like to keep learning about it. I am a relatively shy person, but if I have decent skills, I could find the guts.

I'm not going to jump off a bridge, or run for president based on your honest opinions, so please spill it. I really appreciate your help and input. I know I'm putting myself out there on a limb. :o

I should add, if you've made it this far, if you feel compelled to PM me, please do. I know not everyone is keen about responding to such questions on a public forum.


I'm going to take your request for comment at face value. If I cause offence in the next few lines, I'm sorry. I don't mean to.

I don't think that you should become a full-time professional photographer, for the following reasons:

Your photography is great, but it's borne of love, not of a requirement to take pictures. You seem to love the shots more than the shooting.
Your contrariness over your gear will be a distraction to you when you're shooting. If you're worried about whether you have the right kit, you won't be in the right frame of mind.
Having followed a lot of your posts without necessarily sticking my oar in, I think you seem to have major self-esteem issues. And you make too much out of minor criticisms. In a customer service environment, this will cause a downward spiral: you'll overblow a criticism, which will cause you to lose your belief in yourself, which will reduce the quality of your work and make you more liable for criticism.
Based on points raised above, I question your ability to cope with the pressure of needing your art to clothe your family, even with your modest fiscal requirements.


All is not lost though. If you take a part-time job - perhaps 24hrs over three days per week - you'll get a steady income, and that will enable you to shift your photography to making you a little more "flush". You could pay for holidays, or a better car, or nights out. You'll get the value and the satisfaction without necessarily having to do the work. And it will give you the flexibility to manage your two jobs in addition to your parenting responsibilities.


I don't know how you can address the other challenges that you'll need to overcome. Perhaps you could do some pro bono work to help you get into the mindset of working for other people. You could go to the local pound and offer to take shots for them to publicise the plight of their animals, and you could become the "designated photographer" at family events and parties. Distribute sample prints and business cards.

I think that you need to start with a light touch, and that if you try to go too pro too quickly you'll become disheartened. You have the skill, you just need the belief and the strength of mind to shake off any non-believers.

[Johan Groenewald]

I worked for a big company for 10 years and left them March 2007. I started doing my own thing and will never look back. Even if you are not financialy better off, I can assure you that working for youself is the best thing any body can do. You will start to think differently about work and life, you will start doing things differently and your life will change. Too many people are too scared to take the plunge and then sit in a place where they can not reach their potential. And I always say: a $hitty day on my own is still better than a good day working for a boss.

[SuzyView]

Hey, how come I'm the only one with the guts to say the second option? You cowards! ;)

I don't need to work, and I volunteer everywhere. But I love the photography I do and I sometimes change for cost, sometimes I just do it for free and it's my gift. My friend insisted on paying me for work I did for her daughter's wedding. I told her I'd be happy if she paid me $100 for the cost of the materials. She said the time must have cost $2000, and she was right, but it was my gift. I shoot much better than I did when I started 5 years ago. I had a 10D and 28-135 and a 550. That was it. Then I joined the forum and you know, I'm much better today at shooting and at collecting pro gear. I have so much, I can't take it all with me to shoots. But I don't like doing this for money as a job because I know I will regret it and agonize over it. If making money is the real issue for you, get a real job. If photography is a passion for you and you think about it, worry about it, really enjoy it above all others, then consider shooting with a local pro and seeing how the business really is. I don't like advertising. I don't like working on the weekends. So, I do it for love and that's it. But if I had to work for money, I'd have a good office job.

[Mum2J&M]

I'm going to take your request for comment at face value. If I cause offence in the next few lines, I'm sorry. I don't mean to.

I don't think that you should become a full-time professional photographer, for the following reasons:

Your photography is great, but it's borne of love, not of a requirement to take pictures. You seem to love the shots more than the shooting.
Your contrariness over your gear will be a distraction to you when you're shooting. If you're worried about whether you have the right kit, you won't be in the right frame of mind.
Having followed a lot of your posts without necessarily sticking my oar in, I think you seem to have major self-esteem issues. And you make too much out of minor criticisms. In a customer service environment, this will cause a downward spiral: you'll overblow a criticism, which will cause you to lose your belief in yourself, which will reduce the quality of your work and make you more liable for criticism.
Based on points raised above, I question your ability to cope with the pressure of needing your art to clothe your family, even with your modest fiscal requirements.
All is not lost though. If you take a part-time job - perhaps 24hrs over three days per week - you'll get a steady income, and that will enable you to shift your photography to making you a little more "flush". You could pay for holidays, or a better car, or nights out. You'll get the value and the satisfaction without necessarily having to do the work. And it will give you the flexibility to manage your two jobs in addition to your parenting responsibilities.


I don't know how you can address the other challenges that you'll need to overcome. Perhaps you could do some pro bono work to help you get into the mindset of working for other people. You could go to the local pound and offer to take shots for them to publicise the plight of their animals, and you could become the "designated photographer" at family events and parties. Distribute sample prints and business cards.

I think that you need to start with a light touch, and that if you try to go too pro too quickly you'll become disheartened. You have the skill, you just need the belief and the strength of mind to shake off any non-believers.

No offense taken. I definitely think I need more confidence. Dealing with criticism has never been one of my strong points. But I am trying to be more open-minded because I know I learn more that way. I definitely agree that if you have faith in yourself - or at least pretend you do - that you can go far to convince the non-believers. ;)