UK football help

[grimey121uk]

Im not sure if this is the correct place to post this (feel free to move it moderators if needed)

I want to try and have a go at taking pictures at a premiership football game, not for money or profesional reasons but just as a hobby. Ive emailed my local football team Bolton an am still waiting for a respose.

my main qustions are.
1.what kind of criteria do me and my camera equiptment have to meet for them to consider me.

2.is there some kind of application proccess to go through.

3. what kind of cost are invlovled.

4 do they only allow profesionals?

Although i only have a 40d i would have thought that it would be fast enougth for the action if i shoot wide open and at high iso even with my slow 100-400 assuming the match is during the day:D

[adam LC]

How about hiring a more appropriate lens? 500f4? 400f2.8?

For a premiership game, you'll need accredititaion definaftely. You won't be able to shoot without it, unless you know somebody. As you've mailed a club already; hopefully they'll get back to you soon and give you more info.

I know there's a few guys on potn who shoot premiership games, I'm sure they'll help you more than I.

[grimey121uk]

For me its a hobby and as im a student, super telephoto lenses are way to expensive for me. if i get turned down by premiership i may have to try smaller football clubs from lower leagues

[Gary_Evans]

........ do they only allow profesionals?

Yes. You must have an agency buying your photos, and you must have a proven record of sales for your football images.

400mm 2.8 and 70-200 2.8 are popular lenses with the shooters I know

[grimey121uk]

damm i gouse ill have to start wth low league teams then and work my way up

[jpwone]

Restrictions on photography at League Football matches are strict, licensed and very well monitored.

To publish an image from a league match you require a license. It is very difficult as a freelance to get a license. Licenses are issued by Dataco which is the licensing company owned by the FA Premier League and Football League.

To get a license you have to show paid publication of images at the level you wish to photograph. As you cannot publish without a license you cannot get a license :-)

There are a number of ways around this but you will not be able to directly publish the images.
1. You become a club photographer. To do this you will have to show a club that needs a photographer a body of work at a standard high enough to reflect their league level. The club will be able to use the images and submit them to news agencies.

2. You join a licensed press agency. Publication will be via the agency and in an editorial context.

3. You join a local paper as a sports photographer. Publication will be via the paper and in an editorial context.

Having a Dataco license does not automatically give you entry to a match or ground. You still need to get accreditation. This is usually done by the paper or agency that you are working for and confirms that you are a genuine media photographer working on their behalf. Having got your accreditation sorted out you now need to get permission from the club to shoot for each match you wish to shoot. Again, this is not automatic. Your paper or agency will apply to the club and will confirm who will be shooting on their behalf. The club will limit the number of photographers and the placement of photographers. If their quota is full you will be refused or if a higher status agency needs a spot you may be bumped.

You or your agency will need adequate third party insurance. The minimum for league football is £2 million but you may be asked to provide proof of up to £5 million.

As space is tight for photographers at league matches the clubs rarely (if ever) allow anyone other than accredited and licensed media or their own photographer access. Visiting club photographers have to get accreditation by their club and it is usual to make contact with the club media officer or secretary to ensure you are allowed entry.

If you really want to shoot football check your local non-league grounds. Their are plenty of them and many will welcome a photographer who is prepared to commit some time to the club. The standard of play can be very high and it is the learning ground for many football photographers. If you go this route ensure you have adequate third party insurance or are covered by the clubs insurance.

Hope this helps.

[KIPAX]

To get a license you have to show paid publication of images at the level you wish to photograph.

I would say thats wrong. They don't have to be from the level you wish to photograph at.. Currently for a league licence it is

15 football action shots sold to recognised printed media (regional or national not local) at recognised levels of payment. You must show clippings credited to you and paid invoices.. The 15 pics must have been taken within a year previous to applying.. These can be from any level of football and not just at the level you want to shoot at


There are a number of ways around this but you will not be able to directly publish the images.

There are no ways around it


1. You become a club photographer.

None of the pictures taken as a club photographer will go towards your licence because you would have taken them under the clubs licence. If you can become a none league club photographer then you may be able to sell some to the papers but tis rare to get paid for non league.. Also you need a licence for the first two tiers Conference and Con north/south although not as hard to get but still not easy... ANy lower and it would be hard to sell them.



2. You join a licensed press agency. Publication will be via the agency and in an editorial context.

As 1.. You would be working under there licence and as such you would not be able to use these towards your licence.


3. You join a local paper as a sports photographer. Publication will be via the paper and in an editorial context.

Sorry but as 1. and 2. You would be taking these pics using the papers licence.. as with club and agency they would not be yours even if you did take them.. the licence holder would be the owner


Its very hard to get a licence as you can see... I have 5 towards my 15 and 10 months to get 10 more.. should do it fingers crossed.

Once I have mine I can then sell the club photographs I take and easy make the 15 in about a month for the following year :)

[jpwone]

Sorry Kipax, I should have been a bit more explicit. I did not mean to imply that you could get around the license issue I meant getting to shoot without having a license yourself.

Non-league images are extremely difficult to sell editorially. You really have to enjoy doing it and hopefully recover some or all of your costs by selling images to players and clubs. My own experience is that the local papers don't want to pay (Dorset). There are enough part timers around who are happy to get their name in print and give the images to the papers. Personally I think it is short sighted of the papers. Give it a few years when the pro's have moved on because they can't make a living and the local papers are going to have a serious shortage of skilled sports photographers when the part timers decide that standing in the wind and rain for no return is not what they really want to do. I have had one editor tell me that they now have a policy not to pay for sports images at all. The view was that even if the images they used were poor they cost nothing and that was all that mattered to them.

It is because of the difficulty of selling images at the lower levels that I simplified the requirements for the license to be at a similar level. Teach me to try and take short cuts :-)

[Zilly]

joins dave in having a nervous breakdown
just breath dave:)

[jpwone]

Kipax,

I've just re-read my original response and with the exception of requirements to get a licence (which I simplified) I cannot see that the response warranted a complete trashing. I was pretty explicit about the usage and at no point did I say that the images would contribute towards getting a licence or that they could be used by anybody but the licence holder under which the images were taken.

Would suggest you re-read the original posters questions and then my response in the context of the original questions.

[jamesb84]

Im not sure if this is the correct place to post this (feel free to move it moderators if needed)

I want to try and have a go at taking pictures at a premiership football game, not for money or profesional reasons but just as a hobby. Ive emailed my local football team Bolton an am still waiting for a respose.

Well, you may wait a while for that. Bolton being in the Premiership will definitely hold you back...I'm a West Ham fan, but for the 2 years of shooting sports have NEVER got to go to Upton Park for a game.

my main qustions are.

1.what kind of criteria do me and my camera equiptment have to meet for them to consider me.

Gear wise, there is no criteria set out by the FA/Football League/Premier League. You can turn up with a Powershot if you like. You can see what i'm using, and that has served me well up until now.

For you, well as has been mentioned, this is where you will hit difficulty. For the Premiership, you need: 30 images of "League football", so football league stuff or premiership, published and paid for (and you need to prove it, so keep the cuttings and invoices) PLUS you'll need at least £5 million of Public Liability Insurance (many pro insurance policies will have this as an option).

For the Football Leagues you need: 15 images of Football (conference or football league) published and paid for, and at least £2 million of Public Liability Insurance.

For the Football Conference (BlueSq Prem, North and South), you only need the Insurance (I think thats what it was when I got my option to renew) at £2 million.

These are the restrictions on you. If you manage to get a Football League/Premier League licence, you will also (from this season...officially at least) need recognised professional ID, in the form of a UK Press Card (from one of the gatekeeper organisations such as the BPPA/NUJ/BAJ) which you will have to meet the various membership requirements and further requirements for UK Press Card approval in order to get. Or you can have a DataCo (licensing company) card made for you (which are like gold dust) or you can try and use something like the AIPS card.

2.is there some kind of application proccess to go through.

See above...the application is notoriously selective, and with the advent of the recognised press ID, it now means that a lot of guys who were doing it for fun at weekends and selling to the nationals for pennies will no longer be given a licence. So for those of us in already, and who are doing it pro/full-time, it's good.

3. what kind of cost are invlovled.
Well, whatever it costs you to get to a game/photograph it and get back home. Petrol costs/parking costs are well, you can imagine. Insurance runs to about £200 per year to get all the things you need (and for goodness sake, GET IT!!!)

I would suggest a long (300mm +) lens with a good aperture (4.0 or better) is vital, plus a 70-200 and 2 bodies is a good start so that's a fairly hefty slab of money too.

4 do they only allow profesionals
See answer 2, yeah, you will now have to meet NUJ/BAJ/BPPA criteria for FULL membership (ie. earning the majority of your income through photography) before you'll get a UK Press Card to get into the ground.

Although i only have a 40d i would have thought that it would be fast enougth for the action if i shoot wide open and at high iso even with my slow 100-400 assuming the match is during the day:D

Well, the 40D is good, the 100-400 is good, but it may lack a bit of bokeh for the shots, but yeah, it'll do for daytime.

My advice would be to go and do a few non-league games (Northern Premier League/Unibond League would be good to start) and get a feel for what the camera/you can do for football. Then apply for a conference licence and try to get out there and selling...speak to local papers and see if they're interested (even £5.00 will suffice as an invoice, just always ALWAYS ensure that you do NOT give a paper ALL RIGHTS!!! as they'll own copyright and your photo will be worthless (both as a future earner, and for your licence application)).

Work your way up from there and see how far you get. It will make the whole thing all the more sweet when you DO step out on the pitch at the Reebok Stadium in front of 30,000 to photograph the premiership, as if you get there...you WILL have earned it.

James.

[dinny66]

Very informative thread this one.
I'm been shooting for Shoreham FC since about August. They're in the non league levels, 'Step 9' in the pyramid. So far I've managed to get 5 pictures printed in my local paper, the Shoreham Herald, and got paid for 4 of them.:D:D Only £10 or so a pop, but it's a few quid (I did actually give to the club as a donation for their floodlight fund, but that's another story:lol:)
Gotta say though, getting that first email saying they wanted it and pay for it was fantastic.
The copyright is single use only for suchandsuch date, so if they want a reprint, I get more money.
I guess I've just got to keep plugging away before making the big(ger) time, but it is fun.

Been using 2 bodies for a while now, to get the distance/closer stuff. Really handy.
Currently 1x50D+Sigma 120-300 f2.8 and 1x40D + (from yesterday) 70-200mm f2.8 L IS. Have used the 17-55 but it's a bit too wide for my liking.

[DarrenL]

Hello Dinny,

I'm down your neck of the woods, I covered a few of the Shoreham home games last season.

Darren

[dinny66]

Hi Darren,
Great images of the John O'Hara Final.
Hope to see you there sometime. Have you moved a a league or two now?

Mike

[chris78cpr]

I found that even shooting div 1/2 teams requires backing from the local paper. Professional football is such a big money sport that they protect their image by limiting photographers to only the professionals so that they don't have sub standard imagery published of them.

Chris

[jamesb84]

I found that even shooting div 1/2 teams requires backing from the local paper. Professional football is such a big money sport that they protect their image by limiting photographers to only the professionals so that they don't have sub standard imagery published of them.

Chris

Well, that is the theory...but in practice newspapers want the cheapest images they can get (and to hell with the quality) or they just go for PA/Getty because they're the big names.

But yes, Everything from Premiership down to "league two" will require a license from DataCo with proof of images sold etc (as detailed above)...and from this season the Conference National, Conf South and Conf North require a license from themselves (though this is just proof of insurance and a set of T&Cs for what you can and cant do with the shots).

Very few (if any) individuals will get into the games as they simply wont pass the selection process for the clubs...I was at Aston Villa v Fulham a few weeks ago, and there were 20 photographers on the list, all of them staff for newspapers or agency...not a single individual. And that was not a high-profile game really, especially as there was a manchester derby, and a london derby.

James.

[danaitch]

There's a pretty tight control with the Premiership. I do sports work for the nearest paper to the Emirates and they give HUGE copy space to reports of each game. They approached Dataco to get me a license but they wanted demonstrated proof of a minimum 50 images published in national publications.

So I was out.

It's a tough area of work to break into but don't give up.

I should add that the Sports Editor told me Arsenal FC threw their weight behind the paper's application but Dataco still said no. It's a pretty closed shop. :(

Fair enough though, it's a world-class environment and without my having 50 national images (local images don't count for anything and they don't care to examine the quality of your images) I couldn't get access.

I'll just keep trying.

[IncompletePete]

Realistically, your only way in is through and agency or the local rag, but in order to do that you'll need:

- Experience in the lower leagues and ideally through assisting the pros.
- Buying the kit i.e. one (ideally two) DSLR, 300mm, 70-200 and a laptop with mobile internet.
- A decent portfolio including examples of full match coverage.

Once you've got the basics you'll have a chance, but even then the competition's pretty tight and it has taken me a few years.

[jamesb84]

Realistically, your only way in is through and agency or the local rag, but in order to do that you'll need:

- Experience in the lower leagues and ideally through assisting the pros.
- Buying the kit i.e. one (ideally two) DSLR, 300mm, 70-200 and a laptop with mobile internet.
- A decent portfolio including examples of full match coverage.

Once you've got the basics you'll have a chance, but even then the competition's pretty tight and it has taken me a few years.

I remember being told once that UK based sports photographers are arguably the best in the world. Look at Getty Images and compare say the Premier League with the Bundesliege coverage. The shots are just "better".

The competition when you're out there with these guys is so fierce. I start wiring off after about 10mins just to get there first, and then keep wiring everytime I get something worthwhile. Sometimes it pays off...this weekend i had a huge online show from the MoSunday (with print in the sports section too), but with most premier league the competition is huge and just not worth trying for unless you've got the backing of an agency or national newspaper. Trying to get stuff sold as a freelance is a nightmare, you need the contacts that come with being in an agency and the reputation that comes with it.

James.

[KIPAX]

and from this season the Conference National, Conf South and Conf North require a license from themselves (though this is just proof of insurance and a set of T&Cs for what you can and cant do with the shots)..


Conference have had a licence system in place for many years. the conference north and south are relativly new leagues and took a season to get under licence. But the actual football conference has had a licence for ages.. I have had mine for hmmm 5 or 6 years i think..

[jamesb84]

Conference have had a licence system in place for many years. the conference north and south are relativly new leagues and took a season to get under licence. But the actual football conference has had a licence for ages.. I have had mine for hmmm 5 or 6 years i think..

Sorry, i read it again and i think i may have come across wrong from editing...on looking at my license renewal i thought that the criteria had changed this season and that was what was "new".

James.

[KIPAX]

:) its just me being pedantic.. bad habit :)

[jamesb84]

:) its just me being pedantic.. bad habit :)

Perfection is no bad thing!! Not in this work.

Saw Accie Stanley got a thumping this weekend just gone...did you get any action or was it all at the other end?

James.

[KIPAX]

At lincoln? yeagh I got enough... they all go on the fishy stanley site as I am not allowed to host football league stuff :(

All mine
http://matchpics.fotopic.net/

[rovers_Andy]

it is tough but if you put the hard graft in it pays off. I started this season for my local league team shooting the youth team for the programme, as a result they have now applied for a league licence on my behalf :-) Cant wait for next season!

[jamesb84]

it is tough but if you put the hard graft in it pays off. I started this season for my local league team shooting the youth team for the programme, as a result they have now applied for a league licence on my behalf :-) Cant wait for next season!

Hey Andy, Who's that?

If it's championship then I'll guess i'll be seeing you at some point next season, as long as you come down to Bristol, Cardiff or Swansea.

James.

[cpo13]

it is tough but if you put the hard graft in it pays off. I started this season for my local league team shooting the youth team for the programme, as a result they have now applied for a league licence on my behalf :-) Cant wait for next season!

Just curious Andy - did you also need to get a UK Press Card as indicated earlier in the thread?

[rovers_Andy]

http://www.rovers.co.uk/page/MatchGallery/0,,10303~1520562,00.html

heres a link to some of the better stuff ive shot this season, although i only really like the celebration shots.

As the media department at the club(s) know me and are happy with the quality of the work its just a case of putting my name down on the list of people for each game.

I havent had any problems with stewards yet, and the one time they forgot to put me on the list a quick phonecall sorted it.

In response to the original question of the post, go to the media department in person with your portfolio of images, ask about shooting the youth team or the reserves and take it from there. From personal experience the guys ive spoken to have trouble getting coverage of these games for the matchday programme.

This way you get experience and published images into the bargain (yes you wont get paid for these but its the first step up the ladder) The other possibility is to approach the local papers.

I agree with james point and you need to have f/4 or better for the lenses. I was in a fortunate position to be able to buy all the kit i needed with savings from the "day job"

But one of the midrange canon bodies would suffice to start, you wont have the frame rate but it will force you to work on your timing and anticipation of the action.

Hope this helps

[KIPAX]

Blackburn Rovers? ha! :) I did Blackburn v Portsmouth last weekend and am doing Blackburn v WBA next sunday... I got a massive spread in the lancs telegraph last monday.. 4 pages of pics :) I take it your talking to Rob at PAPR ?

[pawelx]

It seems like there are plenty of professionals shooting UK football at very high levels on this forum.. Out of curiosity, Premiership shots that I normally see published in major newspapers etc, are these massively cropped or just uncropped frames straight out of your magic "L" 300's / 400's?
I am asking, because, while I don't own any expensive "L" telephoto myself, I have read lost of reviews (and seen the prices;) ) and would imagine that these lenses should produce super-sharp images, much sharper than any of the zooms that I've used, then on the other hand a lot of Premiership shots that I've seen are just not that sharp.

Or is it more the case of, you get a slightly blurred or OOF shot of a decisive moment, and publish that, rather than publish nothing?

[rovers_Andy]

Hi Kipax, It was Lee i spoke to at rovers, havent done any first team games for Blackburn yet, will keep an eye out for your pics in the future. Good to see one of the Local photographers getting coverage. Are you doing matches on spec then or with one of the Agencies?

Cheers Andy

[KIPAX]

Hi Andy.. I work for the lancashire telegraph doing sports only.. So i get paid same every weekend no matter what I do.. which will include sitting around waiting for the rain to stop at cricket this weekend :) I normally do accy stanley home and away but our season finished the other week so they have me doing rovers until premiership ends then cricket over summer.. also do ice hockey in blackburn. I have just come back from orphange cup final at darwens ground that will be in grass roots section next week.

if theres any cricket lancashire league or ribblesdale league played this weekend then they will be my pics in mondays telegraph :)

I have done a lot of blackburn ladies games and have a few galleries on rovers website as well..

[North of Auckland]

This is a great read and from a laymen's point of view fascinating. I would never have thought in a million years what you guy's would have to go through to get into and shoot matches. Incredible.

I managed to sneek my 40d and 70-200mm F4 into a David Beckham match when he visited Auckland last year with the Galaxy. I even stood next to the pro's, no-one battered an eye :lol:

I think I managed to grab a couple of half decent shot too BECKHAM (http://www.flickr.com/photos/northofauckland/sets/72157610838068780/) (<clicky), even if I say so myself :D

[rovers_Andy]

Ahh good stuff, im hoping to come down to the LEP just to gain some experience but need to phone back on tuesday, will be attempting cricket for the first time on sunday (providing it stops raining). I'll have a look at the telegraph on monday then.

Cheers Andy