Do I need to upgrade my monitor ?

[Olegis]

Hi all,

My PC monitor is quite old - it's a 17" MAG DJ-707 model that I bought in 1998 (I'm not sure, maybe even before that). The monitor has shown excellent performance untill now - I noticed no quality / brightness degradation.

Recently I became more aware of color management, as I started to produce more pictures that are worth printing. I don't own any decent quality photo printer, so my prints are developed in a local lab (I know it's a good lab because almost all the local major news-papers and magazines are using this lab). Sometimes I get the results I wand and sometimes not - the colors are off and the brightness / contrast is not what I see on my monitor.

So I know that in order to get the results that I want, I need to set up a good color management environment - which starts with monitor calibration and profiling. The question is - is my monitor too old for this ? I have read that old monitors are often incapable of producing accurate, "perfect" whites and blacks.

Do I have to upgrade the monitor ? Is you think I do - what is your recomendation for the replacement ?

[scottbergerphoto]

I would start with calibrating your monitor with a colorimeter package like the Spyder with Optical and see how your prints come out. Regardless of whether you buy a new monitor or not you need to do this to get accurate prints from your system.
Scott

[Olegis]

Getting the calibrator would be the next logical step, the questions is - should I start trying to get the optimal results with my current monitor, or building my image editing environment with a new one ?

This site (http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.html) claims that the life span of an average CRT monitor is about 4-6 years. After that the color and the luminosity shifts the monitor will produce will be too severe for a calibratin system to handle - if that's true, any further image editing with my current monitor is useless.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Olegis,

Personally,. I would NOT bother to try and calibrate that "pig" :? :lol:

The very first thread I started on this forum.. (which is no longer in the database I think) was extolling the virtues of a good display, and expressing my suprise at how many of us were investing in such quality photo equipmet and then trying to post process on "junk"


Well.. that "Mag" is about as "junky" as it gets. :roll:

Religate the Mag to Word and spreadsheets and get yourself a nice Aperture Grill and a card to drive it (Matrox) as fast as you possibly can.

19" is your bare minimum. Mkae sure it is one of the so-called "perfect flat", and aperture grill and a good brand. I am loyal to Sony,.. but Mitsubishi and others are very good as well.

It will have the most profound effect on your total computing that any PC upgrade will offer,. and it is a must for your post processing work.

[LouDawg]

I have a ViewSonic P75f+ and it is a wonderful 17" CRT. Colors are very vibrant. I used Adobe Gamma to calibrate it (haven't bought a colorimeter yet) and prints from mpix match it almost exactly. Good enough for my usage. Plus its great for gaming :)

As far as size goes, I personally like 17"

[Hellashot]

Are you processing your images before you give them to a store to print? There'll always be differences between printer brands - even between models of the same brand. Digital has changed a lot putting more variables into the mix.

If you're a control freak you might want to research printers so you can do your own printing at home.

[AzzKicker]

I have a Dell 17" Ultrasharp thats just beautiful. I had a Viewsonic G70f that turned to crap. It was blury for some reason, text was a pain to read, literally I was getting headaches.


I got the Dell ultrasharp and this biatch is almost perfectly calibirated out of the box.

[LarryB]

If you decide to go with the Spyder (which you should) and get a new monitor (which you should) make absolutely certain that the new monitor you get has the capabilities of adjusting all 3 color guns (R, G, B) individually.

I purchased a couple of monitors recently that claimed that all three color guns were individually adjustable. But, when I went to calibrate them, the green gun was fixed and could not be adjusted! Only the red and blue gun were adjustable. Needless to say, I was unable to properly calibrate these monitors to within specs. Not even close actually. I was also more than a little upset that the description said all three guns were adjustable when in actuallity they weren't. grrrr :evil:

[AzzKicker]

Your graphics card SHOULD let you adjust all three though.

[Olegis]

Thanks for your replies !

CDS - I agree that the MAG isn't the best monitor around, but it was the only decent monitor I could find where I live back in those years, all other brands were really crappy or really expensive. My budget doesn't contain any large figures, so I would like to choose the best affordable monitor. Below is the list of affordable monitors I could find in my area :

Philips 109B43 (http://www.pba.philips.com/product_details.asp?product_id=83) at ~$291
Samsung SyncMaster 955DF (http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?prod_id=AN19JSBL) at ~$360
LG Flatron F900P (http://www.lge.com/catalog/prodlist?categoryId=CTG1000496&modelCategoryId=CTG 1000497&parentId=CTG1000439) at ~$330
ViewSonic G90f (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/crtmonitors/graphicseries/g90f/) at ~$294

The Sony and the Mitsubishi brands are just too expensive here - above $500 ! What do you think about this list ?


LouDawg - I would like a 19" nomitor.

Hellashot - of course I do. They send me their updated ICC profile every week, so I can post process my images according to their printing machines. So there are two things to blame - 1. their profile is wrong, 2. my editing environment is wrong. I tend to believe that the problem is at my end, not theirs.

AzzKicker - thanks for recommendation, but I really want a 19" monitor.

LarryB - Is that separate R, G and B calibration is part of the OSD meny ? I haven't seen anything like that in any monitor I've used over the years (at work mostly - Viewsonic and Philips models).

[CyberDyneSystems]

Ahh I see .. your in Israel so proices will be very different.

I actually like the Samsungs ... and Viewsonic has a good eputation.. the only trouble is that the link you provide to the Viewsonic.. no where on there can I find the words "Aperture grill" or even the abbreviation "AG"...


I would assume it is an AG ... but you REALLY don't want to end up with a "shadow mask" (which is the more standard CRT type)

[Scottes]

What about the LaCie 19" ? Just saw it yesterday for $370 US. I wish that I could warrant the purchase right now.

[Olegis]

Scottes - no Lacie's here, I couldn't find any in Israel :cry:

CDS - why Aperture grill ? How is this better than Shadow mask ?

How about the LG ? Their Flatron series are getting very good reviews across the Web ...

[AzzKicker]

Scottes - no Lacie's here, I couldn't find any in Israel :cry:

CDS - why Aperture grill ? How is this better than Shadow mask ?

How about the LG ? Their Flatron series are getting very good reviews across the Web ...

LG is a very good brand from what I hear and BenQ

[CyberDyneSystems]

Shadow Mask: If you ever saw a dull, low contrast CRT.. it was proabably a Sahdow Mask.

AG: Has better color rendition,. finer detail,. much brighter,.. and much better contrast.

In most environments where shadow masks are being used.. you'll find the users have set brightness and contrast to 100% on all of them.. and even then they may not be happy.

With an aperture grill you can actually use these adjustments with settings other than "11" (on a scale of 1-10) ... One of mine is set to below 50% for brightness...

The difference is night and day when you get the chance to see it.
Prior to owning my first AG,.. I had viewsonic "P115" .. which was at the time Viewsonics absolute top end flagship 21" graphics monitor. At the time Viewsonic was not making either AG monitors or "perfect flat" OS despite being there best Graphics "pro" monitor.. it was a Shadow Mask.

I used this for years... untill I got my girlfriend a Sony G400 19" AG "perfect flat".... they had been discontinued for a newer model.. and I got a terrific deal.. it was less than 1/3rd what I paid for the Viewsonic (about $299.00 as opposed $1,000.00)

The Sony positively BLEW AWAY the old Viewsonic Shadow Mask.

I've used nothing but Sony since.

[Olegis]

Thanks for the explanation.

I found only one AG monitor here, which is the Nec-Mitsubishi 930SB - and it was quite expensive (over $400, which is more than I'm willing to pay for an upgrade). I'll try to look into the ViewSonic P95F, which is also an AG monitor, but from the older make - here is a review (http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1316&page=1) of this monitor from almost two years ago.

The question is - are current shadow mask monitors still that bad, or the technology has evolved to something better ?

BTW - the ViewSonic G90f from the link I provided earlier is shadow mask based, not AG.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I don't think Shadow Mask is improving much... it is simply cheaper and what manufactureres make there lower priced office PC CRTs with.

There fine for office work.. (although text is more difficult to read usually) but for color graphic work... :?

Some nice info;
http://www.epinions.com/cmd-review-2B1B-F0049BA-398DD798-prod1
http://www.epinions.com/content_1597415556/tk_~CB0011.1.1


I think some of the info is a little older.. as AG monitors are now more prolific... nor do these articles stress the improveent so much other than to say that AG is "best" or "better" ... but it's some good info.

[Olegis]

Thanks again, CDS !

I had some time researching the Web for the monitor types and technologies, while the POTN was down and I have found quite a few interesting things -

1. The Aperture grille delivers the brightest picture and is best for image editing and graphics work, but is not good for text-based applications (spreadsheets, Word etc). Even the highest quality Aperture grille monitors are quite soft when it comes to text applications (that is at least what I saw and read on the Web).
2. AG monitors have these two horizontal stripes which are used to support the gentle grill. These stripes can be quite annoying (I've seen those on some ViewSonic monitors at my work).
3. Shadow mask monitors are not as bright as the AG ones, but they display sharper text and therefore are more sutable for text-based applications.
4. LG Flatron seems to be the best solution, which includes the advantages of both worlds - AG and SM. The latest monitors (F900P (http://www.lge.com/catalog/prodmodeldetail?actType=search&page=1&modelCategoryId=CTG1000497&categoryId=CTG1000496&parentId=CTG1000439&modelPrefix=40IF19&globalCode=FB910G&globalSuffix=000000&unit=NOTHING&model=NOTHING) for example) are based on Slot Mask, which is similar to the AG from the brightness point of view, but doesn't have these two annoying horizontal stripes.


Where I live the AG monitors are quite expensive, so I might settle on the LG Flatron solution, especially after I've read all these positive reviews about them.

[Olegis]

Sorry to bring up such an old thread - the monitor upgrade is getting very close now (2-3 weeks), so I have to make up my mind. After researching the market, I came up with the following candidates from all 19" monitors available where I live:

1. Samsung 959NF. It's an older model based on Mitsubishi Diamondtron AG tube. Very highly regarded in local forums.
2. LG Flatron F900P (http://www.lge.com/catalog/prodmodeldetail?actType=search&page=1&modelCategoryId=CTG1000497&categoryId=CTG1000496&parentId=CTG1000439&modelPrefix=40IF19&globalCode=FB910G&globalSuffix=000000&unit=19inch&model=12) is still strong on my list. For some reason there aren't many reviews of this monitor, but the people who have it - just love it.
3. Viewsonic P97F+ (http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/UK/Products/CRTProf/P97f+SB.htm#Overview). Based on AG tube and has some pretty impressive numbers (for example - 1600 x 1200 @ 87Hz).

They all cost about the same, give or take 20-30 dollars. There are of course other monitors like Sony and Mitsubishi - but they are well out of my reach. The thing is - those monitors are not available for display (they are pretty expensive and the stores don't tent to have a stock of such items) and the only way to see and compare them is actually to order them from the importer.

What do you say ?

[CyberDyneSystems]

They all look good to me,.. I'm inclined to say either the Samsung or LG,. in both cases you know wat the tube manufacturer is (Mitsubishi and LG) where as the Veiwsonic is likely to be an LG tube,. we don't really know. (viewsomic doesn't make tubes)

On the other hand,.. if the Viewsonic offers the highest res.. then does say something about the monitors (tubes) capabilities....

I'd say buy based on features, specs and your confidence in the vendor.

[Olegis]

Well, the LG monitor isn't based on AG tube, it's a Flatron - which is kind of hybrid between the AG and SM tubes, offering the best of the two worlds (at least from what LG says, I'm not sure about this one). The Viewsonic is based on some kind of true AG tube, I'm not sure who is the actual manufacturer ... Right now I'm leaning towards the ViewSonic for the following reasons :
1. It's a new model (the Samsung 959NF is more than 2.5 years old).
2. It has a true AG tube.
3. It has the most impressive specifications.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Grab that Viewsonic then!
I'm not at all sure what LG is peddling,. But I do not agree that SM tubes have ANY benifits... other than price.

So unless the LG is substantially less expensive,. it is only LG reaping any benifits from SM technology,. not you ;)

[Sydor25]

I was thinking of upgrading my monitor as well. I'm looking at the Viewsonic G220fB (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/crtmonitors/graphicseries/g220fb/). I have had my ViewSonic PS790 (and it is defintely showing its age) forever and have never had any trouble with it. I'm partial to ViewSonic, but is there another monitor that "sets the bar" at the same price point ($450-500)?

Does anyone here use a two monitor set-up? I would like to use the new monitor for the image only (at least 1600x1200) and use my old 19" for the photoshop desktop (tools, etc). Does anyone do this?

[pcasciola]

Sorry to throw this curveball in, but are any LCDs worth looking at for photo editing, like say the Apple Cinema Displays or something along those lines? I used to have a Nokia 445x which was a really good CRT in it's day, but since I've switched to LCD I really don't want to go back.

[chris.bailey]

Sorry to throw this curveball in, but are any LCDs worth looking at for photo editing, like say the Apple Cinema Displays or something along those lines? I used to have a Nokia 445x which was a really good CRT in it's day, but since I've switched to LCD I really don't want to go back.

Not on that budget. The cheap LCD's really suck.

[Olegis]

CDS - all the monitors I mentioned cost about the same (about USD$400 here; the LG costs about 20-30 dollars less than the two others), so I think the ViewSonic is still the best option. The problem is that I cannot actually see the monitors in action BEFORE I buy, as I already mentioned - these models are relatively expensive and as a result of that fewer people buy them, so the stores do not tend to have these monitors in stock. Sure you can buy one without problems, but only by a special order (no one will order such an expensive monitor just to have in on display for customers).

Sydor25 - this ViewSonic is one HUGE monitor ! And a VERY expensive where I live - I can buy some excellent 29" TV set for the price of this monitor !

pcasciola - I don't feel very comfortable to pay 400-500 dollars for something I may find unsutable for my needs later on. I've read on many occasions that the LCD monitors are quite problematic in terms of colors balance and purity, they still have problems with displaying true deep blacks, they are slow for gaming etc. Of cource there are people who wouldn't agree with these arguments, but I feel that the LCD technology is still too young to compete with high quality CRT displays (especially in applications such as image editing).