Flash Recycle Time Between "M" and "ETTL"

[SYS]

When I shoot using my 580EX in ETTL mode, I noticed that the flash recycles almost instantly for the next shot. When shooting in the "M" mode, though, the recycle time is much longer, especially in 1/1, and improves in speed with the ratio of 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that ETTL has a faster recycle time because it's light output isn't as much as in M mode as it emits just enough to cover the distance from the flash to the subject?

Also, if you need to shoot fast, then having the flash set to M mode is out of the question because of its slower recycle time?

[Curtis N]

E-TTL can use a lot of power, or very little.
Manual flash can use a lot of power, or very little.

Recycle time depends on the amount of power used, regardless of how it's controlled.

Dial your flash down to 1/128 power in Manual mode, and you can shoot "machine gun style" 'till your CF card is full.

[SYS]

E-TTL can use a lot of power, or very little.
Manual flash can use a lot of power, or very little.

Recycle time depends on the amount of power used, regardless of how it's controlled.

Dial your flash down to 1/128 power in Manual mode, and you can shoot "machine gun style" 'till your CF card is full.

That makes sense. Likewise, shooting at a very fast shutter speed also recycles the flash fast due to less light being used, right? It seems like the max shutter speed of 1/250 is enough to recycle the flash pretty fast for my need of shooting violin and piano recitals. I'm getting much better results shooting in M flash setting than E-TTL....

[Curtis N]

Shutter speed doesn't matter (as long as you're not in HSS mode). The flash is faster than your shutter.

Aperture and ISO do matter. f/4 and ISO 400 will require only 1/16 as much light as f/8 and ISO 100.

[SYS]

Shutter speed doesn't matter (as long as you're not in HSS mode). The flash is faster than your shutter.

Aperture and ISO do matter. f/4 and ISO 400 will require only 1/16 as much light as f/8 and ISO 100.

Okay, thanks for clarifying this for me. I hadn't realized the role of ISO and the aperture on flash output even though that ought to be obvious! :)

[Maureen Souza]

Hmmmm.... I like learning something new.

Thanks!

[martinsmith]

Shooting on Sunday I used my 580 on camera and in ETTL mode. It took noticeably longer to recycle than when I use it off camera at full power. I always use fully charged batteries.

[tim]

Wow. Just wow.

Given fresh batteries the flash charge time is proportional to the amount of light the flash put out. If you put the flash in M 1/1 it's going to take the max recharge time. If you put it in ETTL you're VERY unlikely to use a full charge, so it'll be a lot quicker to recharge.

Martin, you're saying that it's quicker to recharge when used off camera at full power than when used on the camera in ETTL? I don't believe that's possible, given fresh batteries each time. If they were the same set of batteries and you used it off camera at full power then by the time the flash was on the camera cycle time will be longer.

[martinsmith]

Well, all I can say is a shoot I did the weekend before, I used my 3 flash guns, The 580 on full most of the time as main light. There were 2 of us jointly taking pics using the same set of lights. Between us, we took over 300 pics at times with barely a second between shots. No missfires occured even just before the 1st set of batteries died.

Shooting this Sunday in ETTL, there were many missfires with shots a couple of seconds apart. The only thing I can think is that the preflash may be draining a little more power.

[tim]

So your 580EX firing full power in manual recharged in one second?

[Wilt]

Between us, we took over 300 pics at times with barely a second between shots.

Martin, before you FRY your flash, read your owner manual carefully about the number of consecutive flashes before you need to let your flash rest, to dissipate heat. Somebody on POTN fried a couple of flashes before wising up!

[Matt30D]

Dont's start fires with your flash!!!!

[PacAce]

Well, all I can say is a shoot I did the weekend before, I used my 3 flash guns, The 580 on full most of the time as main light. There were 2 of us jointly taking pics using the same set of lights. Between us, we took over 300 pics at times with barely a second between shots. No missfires occured even just before the 1st set of batteries died.

Shooting this Sunday in ETTL, there were many missfires with shots a couple of seconds apart. The only thing I can think is that the preflash may be draining a little more power.
There's no way you can take consecutive full power shot with a barely a second between shots unless you were using an external powerpack in addition to the internal batteries of the 580EX! I didn't see you mentioning that (unless I missed it). Were you?

[Jim M]

I'm with everybody else on this - a one second recharge on full power manual just isn't going to happen without an external battery pack. Somebody must have slipped in and adjusted something while you weren't watching.

[SYS]

A slightly off topic, but for those of you who own one, what's the external battery pack that you'd recommend?

[Wilt]

A slightly off topic, but for those of you who own one, what's the external battery pack that you'd recommend?

Canon if specifically for the 580EX.
Quantum for all other flashes.

[SYS]

Canon if specifically for the 580EX.
Quantum for all other flashes.

If I want to use the external batter pack for 580EX as well as for something else, let's say a strobe, then would Quantum work? I'd also guess that it's cheaper to get a non-Canon brand...

[Wilt]

I do not own 580EX, so have no direct knowledge of suitability of Quantum for 580EX.

I can tell you that I have used Quantum batteries on three different brands/models of flash units, and the Quantums are quite long lived!

[SYS]

I do not own 580EX, so have no direct knowledge of suitability of Quantum for 580EX.

I can tell you that I have used Quantum batteries on three different brands/models of flash units, and the Quantums are quite long lived!

Thanks, Wilt. I'll look into Quantum.

[PacAce]

If I want to use the external batter pack for 580EX as well as for something else, let's say a strobe, then would Quantum work? I'd also guess that it's cheaper to get a non-Canon brand...
In this case, the Canon brand would be cheaper except that you'd have to provide your own AA x 8 batteries.

With the Quantum, you can get different cords to connect to different brand flashes and maybe a few lower power strobes.

[Wilt]

In this case, the Canon brand would be cheaper except that you'd have to provide your own AA x 8 batteries.

With the Quantum, you can get different cords to connect to different brand flashes and maybe a few lower power strobes.

And with the Canon, you most likely will need to swap batteries during a wedding, while the higher capacity Quantum would 'keep on ticking' like the Everready battery bunny commercial.

[SolidxSnake]

And with the Canon, you most likely will need to swap batteries during a wedding, while the higher capacity Quantum would 'keep on ticking' like the Everready battery bunny commercial.



Just goes to show how well Energizer's advertisement and marketing is working :D

I think some here are getting confused... he said manual which means full power to some, or manual which means user-adjustable length of the flash burst to others. Keep that in mind until clarified.

[Wilt]

Just goes to show how well Energizer's advertisement and marketing is working :D

I think some here are getting confused... he said manual which means full power to some, or manual which means user-adjustable length of the flash burst to others. Keep that in mind until clarified.

To address that point let's make this blatantly clear, so that it is impossible to misinterpret the facts...

If a 580EX flash is on ETTL and outputs all of its GN190 power when fired, it will take every bit as much time to recycle itself as if it were on M and 1/1 power setting and outputs all of its GN190 power when fired.
A battery pack will permit a flash to recycle faster if it is capable of outputting more current (milliamps) into the charge circuit than AA batteries could provide.
AA rechargeable batteries will permit a flash to recycle faster because rechargeables are capable of outputting more current (milliamps) into the charge circuit than AA alkaline batteries.
If a charging circuit is limited in its input current, no greater capacity battery nor higher current flow rate will overcome the bottleneck caused by the charging circuit!

[SolidxSnake]

To address that point let's make this blatantly clear, so that it is impossible to misinterpret the facts...
If a 580EX flash is on ETTL and outputs all of its GN190 power when fired, it will take every bit as much time to recycle itself as if it were on M and 1/1 power setting and outputs all of its GN190 power when fired.
A battery pack will permit a flash to recycle faster if it is capable of outputting more current (milliamps) into the charge circuit than AA batteries could provide.
AA rechargeable batteries will permit a flash to recycle faster because rechargeables are capable of outputting more current (milliamps) into the charge circuit than AA alkaline batteries.
If a charging circuit is limited in its input current, no greater capacity battery nor higher current flow rate will overcome the bottleneck caused by the charging circuit!



Good reference. I knew that, I noticed, however, that many were saying that it is impossible to get quick recharges when shooting the flash manual. Of course, their interpretation is shooting at 1/1, but the OP mentioned different ratios in manual, which isn't 1/1.

[tim]

A slightly off topic, but for those of you who own one, what's the external battery pack that you'd recommend?

And with the Canon, you most likely will need to swap batteries during a wedding, while the higher capacity Quantum would 'keep on ticking' like the Everready battery bunny commercial.

Canon CP-E4 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/498738-REG/Canon_1947B001_Compact_Battery_Pack_CP_E4.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114) with batteries (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/431943-REG/CTA_Digital_DB27AA_AA_NiMH_2700_mah.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114) (or these batteries (http://thomasdistributing.com/shop/-maha-powerex-2700-mah-aabr4-nimh-rechargeable-batteriesbr2-free-battery-holders-totalbrnew-5-year-warranty-by-maha-p-286.html?SP_id=&osCsid=l26au4lh0ehbmduh4aksdo2dq5) are a bit better). The battery pack cuts cycle time down by about 70%, and it's cheap - $150 plus 8 AA bats. I've NEVER managed to get it even close to flat on a wedding day, but I don't shoot ISO100/F8. I do use it to power the main light at a reception, but still, high-ish ISO. And the Canon costs a lot less than the Quantum.

[Wilt]

Canon CP-E4 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/498738-REG/Canon_1947B001_Compact_Battery_Pack_CP_E4.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114) with batteries (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/431943-REG/CTA_Digital_DB27AA_AA_NiMH_2700_mah.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114) (or these batteries (http://thomasdistributing.com/shop/-maha-powerex-2700-mah-aabr4-nimh-rechargeable-batteriesbr2-free-battery-holders-totalbrnew-5-year-warranty-by-maha-p-286.html?SP_id=&osCsid=l26au4lh0ehbmduh4aksdo2dq5) are a bit better). The battery pack cuts cycle time down by about 70%, and it's cheap - $150 plus 8 AA bats. I've NEVER managed to get it even close to flat on a wedding day, but I don't shoot ISO100/F8. I do use it to power the main light at a reception, but still, high-ish ISO. And the Canon costs a lot less than the Quantum.

Certainly all true statements. OTOH, I rather doubt that any AA batteries would still be usable a decade and a half later from the date they were put into service, so there are the multiple replacement sets of AA to keep in mind in the expense equation.

Then there is also the unknown of how long that battery pack from Canon remains usable with future Canon flash, whereas the long term applicability of Quantum is well established across many flashes.

[PacAce]

Certainly all true statements. OTOH, I rather doubt that any AA batteries would still be usable a decade and a half later from the date they were put into service, so there are the multiple replacement sets of AA to keep in mind in the expense equation.

Then there is also the unknown of how long that battery pack from Canon remains usable with future Canon flash, whereas the long term applicability of Quantum is well established across many flashes.
Wouldn't the question of the longetivity of a battery apply to any battery whether it's in a Canon powerpack, Quantum's, or anybody else's? :confused:

[Wilt]

Wouldn't the question of the longetivity of a battery apply to any battery whether it's in a Canon powerpack, Quantum's, or anybody else's? :confused:

Yes. But I can state that I have two Quantum packs with the original battery set in them, 1.5 decades later. OTOH, I have thrown out multiple sets of AA NiMH batteries because of cells that the conditioning charger indicate are malfunctioning, and the sets were all put into use within the past five years.

[martinsmith]

PacAce> I only use Fujicell 2700 rechargables in my flash. It seems to be ready to fire again as quickly as I can press the button. It recycles quicker than my pal's SB800 with Duracells'.

Wilt> We were taking about 10-20 shots at a time with minimal pauses not 300 continuous. There were breaks for the model to change, move lights, move props, etc. Oh and thanks for changing my name. Very funny?

[Wilt]

Wilt> We were taking about 10-20 shots at a time with minimal pauses not 300 continuous. There were breaks for the model to change, move lights, move props, etc. Oh and thanks for changing my name. Very funny?

'martinsmite' :oops: just call me 'Milt'

[PacAce]

'martinsmite' :oops: just call me 'Milt'

No, Martin. If you really want to get even, call him Wilted. :lol: ;)

[Wilt]

No, Martin. If you really want to get even, call him Wilted. :lol: ;)


That is striking low, Lenny! ;)

[tim]

Certainly all true statements. OTOH, I rather doubt that any AA batteries would still be usable a decade and a half later from the date they were put into service, so there are the multiple replacement sets of AA to keep in mind in the expense equation.

Then there is also the unknown of how long that battery pack from Canon remains usable with future Canon flash, whereas the long term applicability of Quantum is well established across many flashes.

True, but AAs and the CP-E4 have a low up-front cost, AAs are pretty cheap, and the system is light. I just got some sealed lead acid batteries to power some flashes, they should last a good while, but without the accelerated pack the quantum does. Quantum is a better solution, I think, except for the weight, but it's not a solution i'd go for myself.

[Wilt]

True, but AAs and the CP-E4 have a low up-front cost, AAs are pretty cheap, and the system is light. I just got some sealed lead acid batteries to power some flashes, they should last a good while, but without the accelerated pack the quantum does. Quantum is a better solution, I think, except for the weight, but it's not a solution i'd go for myself.

Yes, the Canon does have the benefit of readily available AA batteries if you should be out in the field and the batteries in the pack have been run down. And it is about $250 less than a Quantum Turbo for the initial purchase. My comment about battery longevity was to point out that my Quantum pack had been in service for 15+ years; in that period of time you would typically need to have purchased and used up 5 sets of 8 AA NiMh batteries at a cost of about $25 per set. So the differential is reduced to $125 with the benefit of a battery pack which fits many flashes, not merely Canon flash. As for weight, worn on the belt, I find that I do not notice even after 12 hours coverage of a wedding day.

[tim]

I bet you look great with a hulking great battery pack on your belt :p I've never managed to get the CP-E4 batteries even close to flat, so that's not an issue IMHO. Different equipment for different people :)

[Wilt]

I bet you look great with a hulking great battery pack on your belt :p I've never managed to get the CP-E4 batteries even close to flat, so that's not an issue IMHO. Different equipment for different people :)

No, my point was not about battery capacity until flat. My point was about the fact that NiMH has a finite life, even sitting on the shelf unused a battery set can go bad and need replacement. That is why the need for 5 sets in 15 years.

[SYS]

If I'm planning on an external battery pack exclusively for my 580EX, my decision would be quite simple. I do know that Quantum can be used for more than one flash, but what other lights can you use it for? Only flash units or more powerful strobes, as well?

[Wilt]

If I'm planning on an external battery pack exclusively for my 580EX, my decision would be quite simple. I do know that Quantum can be used for more than one flash, but what other lights can you use it for? Only flash units or more powerful strobes, as well?

You can use them with Quantum lights, Vivitar lights, Metz lights, in fact (per the Quantum chart) many different brandsand the models, which fall into the category of 'speedlights' and even 'monolights'. If curious, see www.qtm.com (http://www.qtm.com)

[PacAce]

No, my point was not about battery capacity until flat. My point was about the fact that NiMH has a finite life, even sitting on the shelf unused a battery set can go bad and need replacement. That is why the need for 5 sets in 15 years.
Wilt, the Turbo 2x2 and the Turbo SC (and I'm sure the other Turbos are the same) use NiMH batteries, too. So how are they different from the regular AA NiMH batteries?

[Wilt]

Wilt, the Turbo 2x2 and the Turbo SC (and I'm sure the other Turbos are the same) use NiMH batteries, too. So how are they different from the regular AA NiMH batteries?

You point out a fact that I was not aware of. The Quantum Battery 1 and 2 and original Turbo all do not use NiMH. I love the power density of NiMH, but think it absolutely sucks that my Garmin GPS needs to be sent to Garmin if I have NiMH battery capacity issues! So I would hate dealing with the more frequent need to send battery packs to Quantum with the Turbo 2x2 and the Turbo SC, too!