Isn't the 580EX II supposed to be a beefed up version of the 430EX?

[caesar2164]

Ok so I recently got a 580EX II after borrowing a friend's 430EX for quite some time...

I used to get on fine with my friends 430EX on auto TTL

then my 580 II arrived and I'm having trouble with it in TTL mode...
it ALWAYS shoots too much or too little...

I either get WAY too much power and thus a white image or WAY too little power and the flash white balance I set is useless and gives shots a weird color cast...

anyone know what's going on?

can someone give me a few rules of thumb to go by...for example:

1. what's a general starting setting for low light indoor shots?
2. what's a general starting setting for adding fill flash in outdoor shots in shadow
3. is it bad to point the flash head at the subject in large rooms or should a large room be treated like outside and point the flash directly at the subjecdt
4. etc...

sorry if these are stupid questions but I'm kind of stumped...I've read the manual like 3 times and I just can't figure it out...

thanks all!

[Curtis N]

anyone know what's going on?Without a few samples with EXIF data, probably not.

[Zansho]

Please post an image with the exif data intact, then we can help you.

But from the sounds of things, your FEC might be too high or too low. I can't really say until I see an image that you've shot first though.

[caesar2164]

ok so here are a few pics using the 430EX:
(btw, does the EXIF say "program (auto) when Av mode is used? because I'm almost positive I used Av mode for these)
http://www.stanford.edu/group/resed/cgi-bin/row/italiana/drupal/files/imagecache/thumbnail/files/photos/IMG_3136.jpg (http://www.stanford.edu/group/resed/cgi-bin/row/italiana/drupal/node/85)http://www.stanford.edu/group/resed/cgi-bin/row/italiana/drupal/files/imagecache/thumbnail/files/photos/IMG_3152.jpg (http://www.stanford.edu/group/resed/cgi-bin/row/italiana/drupal/node/86)http://www.stanford.edu/group/resed/cgi-bin/row/italiana/drupal/files/imagecache/thumbnail/files/photos/IMG_3155.jpg (http://www.stanford.edu/group/resed/cgi-bin/row/italiana/drupal/node/87)

I need to go find some I've taken with the 580EX...

thanks!

Edit: No red crosses instead of images right?
also click on the images to get big versions with the EXIF

[ANGUS]

On my calibrated monitor they look fine.

[TeeJay]

On my calibrated monitor they look fine.

I guess they would do as these were taken with the 430EX - still waiting for the "problem" pics!

TJ

[caesar2164]

yeah, those are the 430EX ones that are supposed to BE fine.

now for the not fine ones (I just took these with stuff in my room, so be kind on composition... =P)

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/th_IMG_4817.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/?action=view&current=IMG_4817.jpg)http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/th_IMG_4818.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/?action=view&current=IMG_4818.jpg)
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/th_IMG_4820.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/?action=view&current=IMG_4820.jpg)http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/th_IMG_4819.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/caesar2164/pics%20for%20Canon%20Digital%20Forum/?action=view&current=IMG_4819.jpg)

my comments under pics in photobucket pages

basically the yellower ones are bounce flash and the camera exposes for available light instead of flash...

the big versions at photobucket should have EXIF

any thoughts?

thanks!

[caesar2164]

more developments:

turns out I was able to replicate the good results of the 430EX using my 40d on auto (green box) mode

what setting can the auto mode possibly turn on that isn't in either program or Av??

[tim]

PEBAC. Without exif we can't tell you what you're doing wrong.

[TeeJay]

Tim, clicking on the images takes you to the original, with the EXIF data shown below.

TJ

[tim]

Tim, clicking on the images takes you to the original, with the EXIF data shown below.

Ah, I found it hidden under "show details".

I have a couple of thoughts:
- When in Av the flash is fill. Shoot manual if you want the flash to be the main light.
- You have to deal with multiple light sources, including the position and strength of all light sources when thinking about white balance. Or just set the camera to ISO 100 F8 1/250th and ambient light will be ignored. At the setting you've chosen ambient light will make it into the image, and you'll have to manually set white balance. Canon cameras aren't very good at WB.
- You have the camera in "manual white balance" according to PhotoBucket - I suspect that means you set the white balance. Make sure you set it to the lightening bolt.

[Jim M]

Your problem is using Av for flash. Unless you want the main exposure to be ambient light with nothing more than flash fill, then don't use Av for flash pictures. This is why the white balance is off and why you can't see the effects of the flash very well. Having the camera set for a flash white balance when most of the light is from the incandescent ambient light will seriously mess up the white balance. The same thing happens with Tv, but you are limited to the maximum aperture of the lens you are using, so it is possible to get a picture mostly lit by flash, but at maximum aperture. Most of us suggest using M for indoor flash pictures where you want the flash to actually be the light source. You can also use P and the green box, but that gives you less control than M.

[caesar2164]

just noticed something,

with the flash set and in manual mode the exposure conpensation blinks at -2
and I can't figure out how to put it back to the center...

[PacAce]

just noticed something,

with the flash set and in manual mode the exposure conpensation blinks at -2
and I can't figure out how to put it back to the center...
You're fine. If you're not exposing fully for the ambient light, it doesn't matter that the meter is showing severe underexposure. Just make sure that it's not on the other extreme, i.e. showing overexposure.

[Curtis N]

Caesar,

Flash Photography 101 (link in my signature) is a short series of articles covering some basic concepts that will make your learning experience less painful. Have a look, I think it will help.

[caesar2164]

interesting,

I was fidling with the flash trying to get good results and I kind of accidentally put the flash on "Multi" with the the ratio A:B at 1/4 : 1/128 and the pics I get are stunning!

Shutter speed: 1/100
Aperture: F/4
ISO: 100

what did I do correctly?

[René Damkot]

Hahahaha. Interesting indeed.
From the sound of it, you've set the 580 to Master, (with no slave present) manual power, 1/4.
If the ISO, aperture and distance (about 3 meters, depending on zoom setting ;)) are correct, you'll get good exposure ;)

[jrsforums]

interesting,

I was fidling with the flash trying to get good results and I kind of accidentally put the flash on "Multi" with the the ratio A:B at 1/4 : 1/128 and the pics I get are stunning!

Shutter speed: 1/100
Aperture: F/4
ISO: 100

what did I do correctly?

Mostly nothing......

Please take Curtis's suggestion and read the "Flash 101 posts. Another good source of flash info is http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/Exposure/

Just trying different things, without understanding what you are doing, will just drive you (and us :lol:) crazy.

[shimmishim]

Definitely read the flash 101. It helped me out a lot. It didn't make sense the first time I read it but after messing with my flash for a month or so... it now makes so much more sense and properly exposing is not a problem as much.

I usually shoot in manual mode for flash photography and make sure the exposure is blinking -2 as to remove ambient light and use the flash as the main light source.

As you'll read flash photography is balancing the flash light and the ambient light.

Curtis is the man for real. He's helped me out a bunch.

[caesar2164]

I read Flash 101 once through and it didn't help too much,

let me try again... =D

[kniteshade]

I recently purchased a 430EX and still have basically no idea what im doing :-)

After reading a considerable amount of online tutorials etc I determined:

Indoors (when flash is the only descent light):
Manual mode, 1/200, pick a suitable aperture, ISO100. The ETTL will work out the correct exposure for you. If the green light on the flash doesn't show (and the photo is obviously underexposed) then the flash can't keep up. So pick a higher ISO, or lower F-value. (slower shutter won't make any difference)

Outdoors, or when you want fill-flash:
AV mode (or Tv), meter on the background. Shoot. If the person your trying to fill-flash with is too bright or dark, then adjust the flash-exposure-comp (either on the flash itself, or the camera)



The bit that threw me, is that using manual mode when using a flash is NOT the same as normally using manual. Using M for normal outdoor shooting you have to work out the correct exposure yourself. When using M with a flash, the E-TTL works out exposure, you just tell the camera a few starting settings, and it makes sure there is enough light.

[tim]

I recently purchased a 430EX and still have basically no idea what im doing :-)

After reading a considerable amount of online tutorials etc I determined:

Indoors (when flash is the only descent light):
Manual mode, 1/200, pick a suitable aperture, ISO100. The ETTL will work out the correct exposure for you. If the green light on the flash doesn't show (and the photo is obviously underexposed) then the flash can't keep up. So pick a higher ISO, or lower F-value. (slower shutter won't make any difference)

Outdoors, or when you want fill-flash:
AV mode (or Tv), meter on the background. Shoot. If the person your trying to fill-flash with is too bright or dark, then adjust the flash-exposure-comp (either on the flash itself, or the camera)

I disagree with your settings. ISO100 uses a MASSIVE amount of flash power, you get no ambient light which makes the place look like a cave. The only time I use ISO100 is in the studio when i'm in total control of the light, and there's LOTS of light to use. My suggestions:
Indoor default: Camera on manual, ISO800, F2.8, 1/60th, flash on ETTL FEC+1. When I photography indoors I range from ISO800 to ISO3200, shutter 1/10th to 1/250th, aperture usually wide open, and use between zero and four lights.
Outdoor: ISO100-400, Av, aperture to suit, FEC-1 or fill flash.

[kniteshade]

Good point.

Though if the room is small enough, and the flash doesn't look too crazy wouldn't I be better off with ISO200-400 to minimise noise ? Or will that generally never be the case? (I haven't played around enough to really get the hang of it yet)


Also - I understand the use/need of FEC for fill-flash, but you mentioned FEC+1 for bounce/direct flash. Is that just to slightly overexposing images (ie same as EC+1 for non-flash photos), or something to do with using a flash specifically ?

[tim]

You'll get more noise at ISO200/400, but still so little it won't matter. ISO is one way you choose how much ambient light gets in, what you do is a creative decision - but ISO100 will usually look less creative and more like you used a P&S!

EC = exposure compensation, it tells the camera how much ambient light you want it. FEC is for flash, it tells the camera how much light to put out.

FEC tells the camera the tone of your subject. FEC of zero means the subject is on average 18% grey. Most of the time the subject is people, who aren't great, they're closer to white, so you use FEC+1 or so. For women wearing white wedding dresses you use +2. For guys in dark suits you use -1 or -2. Really you just have to watch your histogram.

This probably sounds complex, it's really not, it's just a little hard to explain - especially since it's almost 1am here.

The book thread in my sig links to "understanding exposure", which is a good book. I don't think it mentions flash photography though. Time for a new version of the book methinks. Or maybe I should write one.

[rooftopsuicideclub]

Caesar,

Flash Photography 101 (link in my signature) is a short series of articles covering some basic concepts that will make your learning experience less painful. Have a look, I think it will help.

this is a fact! curtis's posts here (especially that one in particular) have helped me learn a wealth of knowledge about speedlites, and more specifically, off camera flash.