Highly Considering Smug Mug...but having a problem with the idea of SELLING!

[jnick]

I'm an extremely nice person, or so I'm told. I go above and beyond for people. I don't care if you're a sibling, first cousin, best friend or even an acquaintance, I will help you out any way I can. Let me just give you an idea...

Besides photography, I'm DEEP into computers. Actually, that's my major in college/career choice. A few months back a friend of mine asked for help getting a new laptop. To cut a long story short, I drove from my house to the college to pick her up, drove back the way I just came to take her to an electronic store, did all of the talking and financial guidance, then drove her all the way back to the college, and finally drove myself home. All in all, it was about a 60-75mile drive and a total of 3 hours that I "donated" to help her out. Once she got the laptop, which happened to be her first Mac, I spent two days teaching her how to use it and transferring all of her files from her old laptop over. We're talking 6 hours per night, back to back.

The catch: I didn't ask for anything in return. No form of payment, no gifts, nada...

So with that in mind...

I REALLY want to open a pro smug-mug account, especially with the 50% off coupon floating around. I shoot various family/friend events and have been told on numerous occasions that I take great photographs. I'm also always told "Oh, I want that one!" or "You have to print that for me!"

As you know, this isn't cheap or economically efficient for the photographer at all. Ink isn't cheap, nor is photo paper. So Smug mug felt like a GREAT idea. If they want the picture, I'd throw them a link to the gallery, they can choose and purchase what they want, and hey, I'd make a few extra bucks as well.

My main reasoning behind creating a smug mug is two fold. First, it allows people to finally have prints of my images, of which I think some capture once in a life time memories. Instead of just sitting in my hard drive, they could be framed on a wall or in a wall unit. Secondly, it will allow me to earn something/some money to put back into photography. As a "poor" college student, it's not easy affording some of this equipment. Even if I only make a profit of $100, that's half the cost of the tripod I want :).

But, I've reached a dilemma. I don't shoot events for strangers or the like. I mainly shoot for family or friends. After all, I'm doing this as a hobby (for now). For example this past Friday and Saturday I shot a two day college graduation for my first cousin and his family of which I'm VERY close to. I took 500+ shots between the two days. Last weekend, I shot a 2nd cousins Christening, of which the parents previewed the shots and fell in LOVE with them.

With that said, I'm having a HARD time thinking of ways to tell my friends or family to go to my site and ORDER prints! Now hear me out for a second...

The graduation I shot, I wouldn't DARE let my cousin by prints from smug mug. I'd just throw the edited shots on the CD for him and let him have a field day with them. However, I'm already getting bombarded with requests from other senior's I know that saw me there taking pictures to get prints or copies of the photos! Now this, I'm on the fence. I don't think I should just freely give away these shots that I spent 5+ hours just TAKING let alone editing.

Then there's the issue with the 2nd cousin... Of course I'm close with their family, but it's come to the point where I'm always doing for them. Fixing their computer, taking pictures, etc. I NEVER asked for anything in return, and that's fine. But would it be wrong to have them order prints, of which if I didn't it would cost ME money to print?

Finally, the last issue I have is what if they just request a digital copy of the image? They don't want to buy the print from my smug mug for whatever reason, but instead want me to mail them a CD of the pictures or email them a single photo...what would you say to this?

Any suggestions/experiences like this is more then welcome!

Thank you!

[CanonXtiDude]

Sounds like a personal issue. I got no problem selling. I would not charge GOOD friend or any family but I find it a bit strange you find it hard selling to strangers. Selling is what makes the world buy stuff. I bet whatever company you work for has salesmen to support whatever product you develop to set it apart from the competition. If you have a hard time selling then just put it at the cost you would bear. I am sure that would not offend anyone. Except me of course. That would mean to me that you are taking food off a photographers table IF you have skill which i assume you do. Anyways thats my .02 cents I still think this is a personal issue you need to take a stand on. Its not a question anyone can answer. Its like me asking people "I don't like to recycle...but people are pressuring me about the environment should I recycle?" I think what you really want here is validation so go ahead buddy go sell those prints and make some money.

[yangez]

If you're too nice, people will take advantage of you.

Take it or leave it, but the fact remains is that you put yourself into this position because you're Mr. Nice Guy. That's all well and good but when it comes to the point where you value other people (and even worse, what other people think of you) more than you value yourself and your own time, there's hell to pay. I'd venture to say that valuing what other people think of you over yourself is not a very healthy thing to do either. I'm not a brilliant photographer by any means but this goes beyond the realm of photography.

If you just explain to your friends/cousins/pretty girl with a computer problem that your time has value and you've spent the better part of your days working on them, they will not have a problem with going onto Smugmug, picking out the ones that they want, and buying it. I will go out on a limb here that many will NOT, just because they've gotten used to getting freebies from you. I mean, if they haven't had to do anything and just gave you all the work (whereas they got an awesome print at the end which they happily take and hang up without giving you any more than thanks), they will certainly not want to buy it now.

In short, I'd advise you to quit giving away freebies, except to your immediately family of course (that's not even giving away). You will find that not only will you get a little bit of cash if your photos are in such demand, but the people who buy your prints will value them more because they had to pay for them.

Being nice is good, being ridiculously nice will get you eaten. I understand that you'll probably reject this entire post just because that's how things go, but nonetheless I had to post it.

[yangez]

By the way, smugmug is awesome.

[Mike R]

IF you feel that guilty charging, you should at least charge enough to cover your expenses, including the cost to maintain the site and don't forget $4.00 gal gas along with other expenses. Why should you go broke?

[bryan k]

I use Smugmug for both my youth sports pictures, family events, personal portfolios, and my good friends childrens events, etc.... With a pro account, its easy to change the pricing model for each gallery...

A little league 4x6 may be $5, and my cousin's son's first birthday party may be a small markup, like .29. Friends kids events may be .45, etc.

Photography isn't an inexpensive hobby... Having a gallery that I host for my friends and their distant relatives who couldn't make the party, is a great thing- but it costs money to host. So if 25 people view the gallery for the next few months, and someone buys some prints for .29 instead of .19, it helps...

If a family member wants to do some cheap printing at home and make a scrapbook or something, and they ask for a cd, by all means, burn them one if you want. But for most people out there, they don't mind spending a few extra pennies to get a great shot for their desks that Aunt Flo's point and shoot couldn't grab....

Its to the point now, people ask if I am bringing my camera, and if I am, they leave theirs at home... I am providing a service- my friends/relatives can relax and not worry about getting a picture of the new baby getting baptised in a dimly lit church....

My only advice when dealing with family- try and be consistant... Again, I am only using a slight percentage markup for family events, so I don't set up different tiers of pricing. I tell my parents/brother to look at them there but I will print whatever they want, and the rest of the family can order from there...

I think its a bit rude to request a CD of all the shots somebody took at an event. I would just say, "I have some editing to do, then I will post them for everyone to see." If they say they wanted a print, great, "You can purchase them directly from the site". Thats always addressed any queries I had received.

If you burn a CD for one cousin's christening this month, you may offend all of your other relatives at future events when you direct them to the site instead...

Don't feel bad, it is a bit of an odd transition when dealing with friends and family, but people who aren't in to photography as a serious hobby, and just have their trusty point and shoot, have no idea how expensive it really is. And when we aren't making much money (since we aren't pros), a few dollars here and there helps pay for the $1500 camera, $3000 in lenses, $250 CF cards, $200 Smugmug account fees, $300 flash, $500 editing software, $100 for a bag, etc. Even if we donate our shooting time and editing time for free, there are many other expenditures we are left to pick up the tab on... Every dollar helps :lol:

Not sure if my rambling made any sense- I hope it did. Good Luck

[jnick]

If you're too nice, people will take advantage of you.

Take it or leave it, but the fact remains is that you put yourself into this position because you're Mr. Nice Guy. That's all well and good but when it comes to the point where you value other people (and even worse, what other people think of you) more than you value yourself and your own time, there's hell to pay. I'd venture to say that valuing what other people think of you over yourself is not a very healthy thing to do either. I'm not a brilliant photographer by any means but this goes beyond the realm of photography.

If you just explain to your friends/cousins/pretty girl with a computer problem that your time has value and you've spent the better part of your days working on them, they will not have a problem with going onto Smugmug, picking out the ones that they want, and buying it. I will go out on a limb here that many will NOT, just because they've gotten used to getting freebies from you. I mean, if they haven't had to do anything and just gave you all the work (whereas they got an awesome print at the end which they happily take and hang up without giving you any more than thanks), they will certainly not want to buy it now.

In short, I'd advise you to quit giving away freebies, except to your immediately family of course (that's not even giving away). You will find that not only will you get a little bit of cash if your photos are in such demand, but the people who buy your prints will value them more because they had to pay for them.

Being nice is good, being ridiculously nice will get you eaten. I understand that you'll probably reject this entire post just because that's how things go, but nonetheless I had to post it.

Wow...I think you actually hit the nail on the head here...

I don't reject that post one bit. I want to sell for the reasons I posted, but I just didn't know if it was "morally" wrong, per say. Which is why I wanted other photographer's opinions.

Just to clarify, I RARELY make prints for people of the event. Normally, I will just email them the picture or put it on CD for them. At that point, whether they print in at home or pay pennies for prints at those express photo-booths is beyond me.


CanonXtiDude: You're right as well. It is personal and I am looking for validation. I was just wondering if photographers in general (mainly hobbyists/amateurs) charge distant family/acquaintances for prints.

Thank you guys for taking the time to reply! I think I'm going to go ahead and buy the smug mug account and try and have the graduation pics up by the weekend for the other various seniors.

However, the one question I wouldn't know how to handle is if they request a digital copy of the photo instead of paying for prints? Obviously I'd want to say "No" but how do you go about it in a "nice" way?

Thanks!

[S.Horton]

Two things come to mind.

First, you won't make a 'few bucks' -- probably almost zero.

Second, if you want to give away the photos, you can do that on SmugMug easily.

[jnick]

I use Smugmug for both my youth sports pictures, family events, personal portfolios, and my good friends childrens events, etc.... [snip]

Not sure if my rambling made any sense- I hope it did. Good Luck

It definitely did! I didn't realize I could vary the price of the prints based on photo album. That actually makes the decision slightly easier. I was told that the express photo station my cousin who graduated uses is like $.20 a photo. If I set the price to $.29, if he didn't mind paying the extra pennies, I'd still be making a "profit", even if it's nearly nothing...it's something.

Thank you for the clarification!

[Aaagogo]

if you have family members that owns business or shops or has things that you need, i'm pretty sure they will not be happy if you just take their stuff for free.

if they can understand why you charge, good, if not, just stop being their photographer.

money in exchange for time, experience, equipment is only fair

[Stocky]

By posting in the business section you are always going to get answers about how you should charge. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and I have done a little of the same just remember that answers here will always be biased. ALWAYS.

When I go climbing with my friends I don't charge them money to belay even though that is a more expensive and time consuming hobby for me right now. The people I know that spend their time fixing up cars don't charge their friends to take them around the block for a spin. If someone wants to go for a run I don't quote them my hourly rate.

I don't see photography as being any different.

[Aaagogo]

i feel that your analogy is misrepresented.

when you go climbing with your friends, you are sharing and enjoying the passion with your friends, you belay your friend, and then he belays u back. you're not climbing for them or rather, ask someone who has all the equipment to go with you just for you to climb, then you go home when you are done climbing.

same as fixing up their cars, taking people out for a spin is different than fixing the car for you

running... you don't run for someone right

By posting in the business section you are always going to get answers about how you should charge. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and I have done a little of the same just remember that answers here will always be biased. ALWAYS.

When I go climbing with my friends I don't charge them money to belay even though that is a more expensive and time consuming hobby for me right now. The people I know that spend their time fixing up cars don't charge their friends to take them around the block for a spin. If someone wants to go for a run I don't quote them my hourly rate.

I don't see photography as being any different.

[Stocky]

Maybe those weren't the best examples as I was climbing out of bed this morning when I wrote that, and it was all I could think of off the top of my head.
Its just that I don't consider helping people with their computer or taking pictures at an event that you are attending anyway is the time to take money from your friends. There is nothing wrong if you are ok with that, its just not for me. I think I will always plan to help out family members and good friends for free. Heck, if you have to go to the event you might as well make the whole thing more tolerable by brining a camera with you.
I see this as a personal decision based on how good a friend you are with the people involved.

Perhaps I am biased because I do have friends that will help you work on your car if you need it. I didn't even pay for my wedding photos . They were a gift that included an album AND a CD of the files.

If you want to charge your friends for the pictures I wont judge you. I just want to make sure that you see the other side which is rarely brought up here. If you do go that route make sure that you have a sound plan. Online sales sites like SmugMug are very reasonable if you are using it to start a business, but the start up costs are high for something like what you seem to have in mind. I would be worried that you won't make your money back, never mind a profit, and thats a fair bit of risk for a self described poor college student.

[KirkHMB]

I didn't sign up for my smugmug pro account to make oney, more to stop losing time. I'd get 4-5 requests for CDs or individual pictures for each event, and spend an hour+ burning CDs each weekend. It's easier to share via smugmug, and if they want to buy, they are priced cheap, but at a slight profit ($40 last year, not even enough to pay for the account). I just don't have the time to give away.

And some family events are setup to allow right clicking, others are not. All depends on how close people are, and how you want to treat them.

[jnick]

By posting in the business section you are always going to get answers about how you should charge. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and I have done a little of the same just remember that answers here will always be biased. ALWAYS.

When I go climbing with my friends I don't charge them money to belay even though that is a more expensive and time consuming hobby for me right now. The people I know that spend their time fixing up cars don't charge their friends to take them around the block for a spin. If someone wants to go for a run I don't quote them my hourly rate.

I don't see photography as being any different.

But see, this is where I run into a slight issue. I agree with your points. However, when do you go from being kind/generous, to being used? As bad as it is to say, some members of my family, and even some friends think they have things coming to them. They just expect that when they say "I want this picture" that they will get it on the spot, for free.

Again, for my cousins graduation, I had no interest in selling him the photos. To me that's crossing a line. But to the members of the family who I don't see regularly, but yet put myself out there to fix their computers every time there's an issue or create slideshows/CDs of pictures that I took for FREE... and yet get NOTHING in return...to me that's being used.

Not to mention, I just realized that the aforementioned family members sent ME pictures of their newborns in a Kodak gallery, to where if I want prints I must pay. Where's the difference?

[JAcosta]

I personally think you should try to sell. Making a few extra dollars on the side will always help.

[S.Horton]

BTW, even with friends and family, they will order via SmugMug just to save time.

[SuzyView]

I started a pro Smugmug account three weeks ago. I find it easy to use and you can set all your own rates. I took pictures at a very crowded event and got 3 orders, but I didn't care. It was a way for people to see the pictures. Set your prices lower. You don't have to charge $6 for a 4x6. For friends and family, charge less. I find most friends and family want the digital images anyway. Only Grandma wants the 5x7 of Johnny, but she probably can't order from the net anyway.

[amfoto1]

There is nothing wrong with being generous. I'd encourage it.

But, good grief, there's also nothing wrong with charging a little something to compensate you for your time, the wear and tear on your photo equipment, and for your talents and services.

Would you flip burgers at the local fast food restaurant 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year for no pay?

You have to eat, keep a roof over your head and put $4 a gallon gasoline in your car. You will have to replace your camera and lenses when they wear out. You have talents that are worth something to other people.

It's only fair that you receive some compensation, and I think you will find friends and family will be happy to support you, especially if you give them a bit of a discount off your "regular" rates, or a "better deal" than they could find elsewhere.

Take some business classes. There are plenty of real moral issues that need dealing with: CEO pay scales, outsourcing and layoffs, golden parachutes, corporate transparency, tax loopholes, government subsidy programs, and many more.

Charging a fair and reasonable price for your services and productivity is not a moral issue, it's a moral right, pehaps even an imperative for survival!

Over the years, many clients of mine have also become good friends. Should I stop charging them for my services when that happens?

If you don't eventually begin to charge for your services, you'll end up on welfare and just add to the tax burden that's already a pretty heavy load on the rest of us.

You will have plenty of opportunities to be generous throughout your life.

I just turned down payment on the use of several of my photos, donated their use to someone who regularly provides me access to photograph events and is quite supportive of my efforts, with PA announcements during the events, links from their website, credits and my URL in their newsletter, and more.

I also donate the use of my photos, time and sometimes a portion of my profits to certain non-profit organizations and my local church.

[bham]

My friends and family have gotten use to paying for photos that I take. They understand that its my business and that my time and skills are valuable. I don't charge them the same as other customers, and I regularly give gifts of 12x18 prints, canvas', mugs, etc for presents on various holidays, birthdays, etc.

And yeah smugmug rocks.

[jklinksi]

jnick,

I was in the same boat and kept justifying my generosity as a way to build my portfolio. Eventually it became quite evident that people will take as much (and usually more!) as you have to give. For me, as a social worker, giving without the expectation of return was usual, and it took me a long time to establish a value on what I did. Just because I enjoyed it didn't mean that it didn't take time away from other aspects of my life and that it wasn't valuable. I'm not sure what advice I would give for your particular situation, I just wanted to let you know that there are other people that have been in your same boat and have found a way to bail out with out sinking! Best of luck.

jklinksi


ps- I just had a 'friend' ask me today why my print prices were so much higher than the print prices on smugmug front page after I spent 3.5 hours shooting a birthday party on location for FREE last weekend!!!! THE NERVE!!!!

[NSWESP]

Where is the 50% off coupon? I want smugmug pro but cost is an issue for me.

[jnick]

The one that worked for me was "Yahoo". However, I don't know if it's still active.

[eddarr]

Where is the 50% off coupon? I want smugmug pro but cost is an issue for me.

Use Flickr as the coupon code and receive 50% off first year.

[NSWESP]

Use Flickr as the coupon code and receive 50% off first year.

Thanks, Done it :D

[pworm14]

Lots of good advise here so I'll go ahead and give my $.04 (inflation) worth.

Here’s how I do my SmugMug site. Family and VERY close friends get access to private (shared) galleries that have no mark up and have download capability. Yes, you do have to duplicate galleries but that’s really no big deal. They can either order the prints at cost or download the files and have them printed wherever.

All others get to pay.

This has worked out really well for me and I spend far less time dorking around printing or burning CD’s, trying to make everybody happy.

Like others here say, don’t expect to make a lot of coin if you’re just doing this as a hobby. I opened my account in Feb and have made a grand total of just over $400, which is a lot more than I would have made prior to opening a SmugMug account.

Good Luck.....