macbook pro

[anorman]

I am finally making the switch. I ordered my macbook pro today. Can anyone tell me the loves and hates of it

[slava-slavik]

I'd rather get a new lens than a new MacBook. It's twice as much as the same configuration of new notebook with Windows.

I understand that photographers prefer Mac. Well, I feel like an old school...
:)

[jakegatchell]

I switched a few years ago and had a G3 iMac. Finally about 10 months ago I bought a MacBook Pro. And I absolutely love it. I've never had one problem with it. If I had a windows machine I would have had all kinds of problems now (I've had windows pc's before). I think if you are open to learning a new OS you will do fine.

[breal101]

Learning mac OS is easy, you will love it. Not much to hate about them. My advice is to make a clean break from windoze, many software manufacturers will change your license to mac. Bringing windoze crap to a mac is somewhat like getting married to a beautiful new wife and then having your ex over for dinner every night.

[anorman]

I had an alien ware laptop and in the last year crashed two hard drives gave in bought a Sony and I like it ok but just can't seem to keep up all the time seems tempermental. I am also attending college and one of the first things they asked was if I was opposed to ever using a mac so I took the jump

[anorman]

the only program I have read bad reviews on so far is the office mac 08. I am so excited I just hope it gets here before Friday so I can take work with me this weekend

[Stocky]

The only people I have ever known to resist the move to mac are the people looking to steal software for their PCs.
I see a lot of people complain about the prices too, but by the time you get a similar configuration from a reputable manufacturer you will pay about the same for a Mac or a PC. Apple just doesn't make any really low end machines.
Mine is also awesome for cleaning all of the viruses off of people's thumb drives before they go into one of our work computers :)

[jonstewart]

The only reason I bought the MBP was the screen. The OS is no better than Windows, and is absolutely atrocious at cross platform connectivity, which is a complete pain when everybody uses Windows Server, with the odd sprinkling of Linux servers.

I have *never* had anywhere near as many problems with *any* PC than I have had with Apple (I also have a MacPro, but it runs Vista as primary OS); and with Apple, if there is a problem, you're faced with dumb silence for a month or two while they attempt to fix things; what a joke.

For instance, about 1/3 of the time, my MBP won't wake up from sleep, or sits for 15+ minutes doing nothing. Great when you pull it out in front of a client and it just 'doesn't work (unlike the ads). Everything's up to date, software wise.

The integration between the software and hardware on the MBP is very nice, so I decided to keep OSX as the primary OS, and run vista in parallels, for all the things I need to do that there simply isn't software to do in OSX.

All in all, beautifully made (in China) machine, but the OS has a long way to go. APple need to stop nannying and let us do things the way we want to.

PS This idea that the only people who resist switching to Macs because they're using pirated software is utter BS. I think every piece of Mac software has been pirated also!

Hope this helps! :-)

[jpvaz]

...and is absolutely atrocious at cross platform connectivity, which is a complete pain when everybody uses Windows Server, with the odd sprinkling of Linux servers...


?!? never had a problem with that...

I use a 17" macbook pro from work and have a 15" macbook pro as my personal computer... i run OSX as my main system, then run a copy of the company's server using VMWare and 2 windows clients using VMWare as well to test updates before doing them on the actual server... never had 1 single problem with that... i also have my macbook connected to the company's server wich is running windows 2008 server, with ftp server, exchange server, proxy server, dns, http server, sql server, print server, file sharing and a couple other services... never had 1 single problem about "cross platform connectivity"....

Stocky -> The only people I have ever known to resist the move to mac are the people looking to steal software for their PCs.

Exactly the same thing as OSX, you can find just about any application or game for Mac as easily as you can for windows.

The only people that o know that have resisted the move to mac are people that can't afford a Mac Pro and are hardcore gamers, since a good gaming PC is still cheaper then a Mac Pro and 99% of the games don't take advantage of the Mac Pro's dual processor capability...

I'll post a couple of links later with some very good info for switchers.

[a_kraker99]

I dont get the big hype about Macs.... I build my own PC's though so maybe that has something to do with it.

[cory1848]

The only reason I bought the MBP was the screen. The OS is no better than Windows, and is absolutely atrocious at cross platform connectivity, which is a complete pain when everybody uses Windows Server, with the odd sprinkling of Linux servers.

I have *never* had anywhere near as many problems with *any* PC than I have had with Apple (I also have a MacPro, but it runs Vista as primary OS); and with Apple, if there is a problem, you're faced with dumb silence for a month or two while they attempt to fix things; what a joke.

For instance, about 1/3 of the time, my MBP won't wake up from sleep, or sits for 15+ minutes doing nothing. Great when you pull it out in front of a client and it just 'doesn't work (unlike the ads). Everything's up to date, software wise.

The integration between the software and hardware on the MBP is very nice, so I decided to keep OSX as the primary OS, and run vista in parallels, for all the things I need to do that there simply isn't software to do in OSX.

All in all, beautifully made (in China) machine, but the OS has a long way to go. APple need to stop nannying and let us do things the way we want to.

PS This idea that the only people who resist switching to Macs because they're using pirated software is utter BS. I think every piece of Mac software has been pirated also!

Hope this helps! :-)

Get rid of vista on the machine and you might see a change. I use windows servers at work and at home and I have no problems connecting to them. In fact, all I have to do is browse for connect servers and up pops a list. Click of a button and I am connected. Cant say the same for setting up a PC to connect... I think your set up is wrong, and its probably on your server end. Again, your waking up issues are most likely due to the fact you are running dual OS's.

Ont he pirating software remark, your right...its just the software for mac is harder to find.

How are viruses treating you on the PC? One thing I am glad I never have to worry about. Your choice of virus software can also contribute to sluggishness of the machine. If you have Nortons, dump it (On the the mac).

All OS's can be improved, but Leopard is light years ahead of Vista...cant really argue with that.

[cory1848]

I dont get the big hype about Macs.... I build my own PC's though so maybe that has something to do with it.

Different tools for different jobs...thats all it is... Some people like photoshop, others like paint shop pro...

What most people dont understand is that comparing PC's to Macs is that people tend to compare a $500 PC machine to a $2500 mac... its apples to oranges. By the time the average consumer upgrades everything to similar specs, they are looking at comparable price lines...

[jonstewart]

In fact, all I have to do is browse for connect servers and up pops a list. Click of a button and I am connected.

How are viruses treating you on the PC? One thing I am glad I never have to worry about. Your choice of virus software can also contribute to sluggishness of the machine.

All OS's can be improved, but Leopard is light years ahead of Vista...cant really argue with that.

Thank you for making my point about having to browse for server and connect. There's no way of maintaining a permanent connection to server resources, offline and online, without having to reconnect when you sleep. It's laughable; how hard would it be to do that? Even the crappest version of windows can do that! I particularly hate it when you launch something like dreamweaver in OSX, and it just whines that it can't find the resource (on the server) and you have to manually connect. What a pain.

Never have a problem with viruses on PC's. If you did, then you haven't the right AV software installed. Norton? You think I'm some ignorant buffoon? NOD32 is slick and small.

Leopard light years sahead of Vista? Oh, I think I can argue about that, if I could be bothered. It's not the dual OS's that cause the wakeup problem. I had the same thing with only OSX installed. So much for that theory.

Obviously Apple is your religion. I consider myself more of a free thinker :-)

Jon

[taygull]

Obviously Apple is your religion. I consider myself more of a free thinker :-)

Jon

hmmm.....not sure about the free thinker....pretty opinionated.

[donysy]

at first, you will be very unfamiliar (if this is your first mac), after that you will forget your windows :D .. enjoy your macbook pro.. (don't forget to upgrade your memory to 4 GB :D )

[jonstewart]

hmmm.....not sure about the free thinker....pretty opinionated.

Yep, nothing wrong with holding an opinion. My opinions are based on my experience, but if you go to any of the mac forums, you'll see the same sort of grumbles.

The Mac v PC debate is so entrenched, that many Apple users tend to get very defensive when you point out a deficiency in OSX. However, as another poster did point out, no OS is perfect, and all can be improved. The two OS's are just different, not better or worse. If you have special needs or requirements, Mac might indeed be better for you.

The whole idea that 'Apple just works' is fine when it does!

It might amuse you that my fav OS of all time is / was X windows, running on Unix, some 15 years ago. It had many of the features that of the current incarnation of OSX, including 'spaces'.

Free thinker? Yes, I think so. I use both OS's when it better suits the task. OSX when on location or in the studio capturing, and Vista to do the processing and business admin.

(At least Adobe software runs great on both!)

[cory1848]

Thank you for making my point about having to browse for server and connect. There's no way of maintaining a permanent connection to server resources, offline and online, without having to reconnect when you sleep. It's laughable; how hard would it be to do that? Even the crappest version of windows can do that! I particularly hate it when you launch something like dreamweaver in OSX, and it just whines that it can't find the resource (on the server) and you have to manually connect. What a pain.

Never have a problem with viruses on PC's. If you did, then you haven't the right AV software installed. Norton? You think I'm some ignorant buffoon? NOD32 is slick and small.

Leopard light years sahead of Vista? Oh, I think I can argue about that, if I could be bothered. It's not the dual OS's that cause the wakeup problem. I had the same thing with only OSX installed. So much for that theory.

Obviously Apple is your religion. I consider myself more of a free thinker :-)

Jon

Then sell it to someone that can use it...Didnt mean to upset you... IF you do some research on the wake up problem, you might find a solution...

My point on the AV is that I dont even have any installed. Dont need that junk slowing my machine down and I dont have to worry about scanning every file I put on my machine...Thats laughable to me...

Like I said previously, different tools for different jobs... IF you dont need it, why do you have it?

[jonstewart]

Then sell it to someone that can use it...Didnt mean to upset you... IF you do some research on the wake up problem, you might find a solution...

My point on the AV is that I dont even have any installed. Dont need that junk slowing my machine down and I dont have to worry about scanning every file I put on my machine...Thats laughable to me...

Like I said previously, different tools for different jobs... IF you don't need it, why do you have it?

No, don't worry, Cory, you didn't offend (or upset) me in the slightest.

The wake up problem is one of the things that Apple has apparently been slow to fix. They have fantastic product, and are great at selling it, but it takes a while to get stuff fixed. What is annoying is the dumb silence, where they will not admit there is a problem, and then a new version of whatever software comes out, and hey presto, it's fixed. (Last example of that was iTunes not closing down properly in Windows).

On the virus side, I only scan incoming files, but must do since all the data ends up on the (Windows) Server. This is a lot quicker than scanning everything.

I, for one am glad that I have the choice of both operating systems on my Macs; for instance, I accidentally deleted some files from the notebook (yes, I made a mistake :-) ) but was a bit shocked to find the only way of recovering them was to run R-Studio from the Windows installation on the computer (???), which it did. Couldn't find (and in conjunction with searching various forums) a Mac program that would do that.

I think it's great having the choice, and if it wasn't for OSX (and to a lesser extent Linux) Windows wouldn't be half as good as it is.

Sorry if I appeared a bit 'strident' in my last post; it's been a long day so far, and it isn't over yet!
Jon

[NC_Photo]

I have a MacBook and I love it. I had never even touched a Mac until college...my school was all Mac and boy was I upset..lol.

I bought a PowerBook G4 as my first and while I do admit that I had a problem with it (screen stuck on the grayish/white and wouldn't come out of it). Silly me didn't buy Apple Care....yeah, yeah, I know....but I did pay the $50 phone fee to have someone walk me through fixing it. After that I never had any problems. I have to admit, I was REALLY hard on that computer and I still use it occasionally as backup.

I bought my MacBook last January and really loved it. I work at a studio that is totally PC and I *totally* agree with the statement that someone posted about people who don't want to make the switch don't want to actually pay for software. I've noticed that with PC friends.

The funny thing is, these days when you call up Dell to buy a computer it sound really cheap - but thats because it comes with NOTHING on it. Once you pay to add on all the things you might need or want the price is damn near close to Mac. Even my dad, who has only used PC and JUST got high speed internet last year is thinking about making the switch because of the ease of using a Mac.

[kink]

love it

[anorman]

Yup I got:
Processor 065-7441 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Display 065-7448 MacBook Pro 15-inch Widescreen
Memory 065-7444 4GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
Hard Drive 065-7465 200GB Serial ATA @ 7200 rpm
Optical Drive 065-7453 SuperDrive 8x DL

[StealthLude]

I dont get the big hype about Macs.... I build my own PC's though so maybe that has something to do with it.


It’s ok... I own both and still think MAC fanatics are crazy.

They make a good machine; but so do many other PC manufactures.

Personally I rather custom build my own PC than pay Apple for their inflated prices… heck; I hope you ipodders and mac users keep buying. Help my Apple stock go up haha.

[Stocky]

My sister in law carried her macbook into an apple store the other day because she was having problems with it. It was 13 months old and out of warranty, but they swapped out the hard drive(with a larger version) and replaced some plastic on the case on at the store free of charge. Try that with a Dell at your local mall some time.
If you happen to live near an apple store the service is awesome, and they actually know what they are talking about at the genius bar.

[jpvaz]

Canon vs Nikon... Mac vs PC.... same war, different names...

Back on topic:

http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/ -> Good site to look for software, keep up to date with software updates, etc.

http://www.macosxhints.com/ -> MacOSX tips and tricks

http://osxhelp.com/ -> I think the name says it all...

http://www.thinkmac.net/ -> MacOSX tips, tricks, hints, tutorials and reviews

http://www.coolosxapps.net/ -> Tips, reviews and free Mac OSX applications

http://www.opensourcemac.org/ -> Free MACOSX software

http://www.macfixitforums.com/ -> Got a hardware, software problem? These guys have the solution (most of the time...)

And last, a small PDF i got from the net, it's a compilation of the most used shortcuts on Mac OS.

http://rapidshare.com/files/116339576/Mac_OSX_-_Shortcuts.pdf

Hope this helps you.

[donysy]

Yup I got:
Processor 065-7441 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Display 065-7448 MacBook Pro 15-inch Widescreen
Memory 065-7444 4GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
Hard Drive 065-7465 200GB Serial ATA @ 7200 rpm
Optical Drive 065-7453 SuperDrive 8x DL

hi-end mbp you have ..
congratulation .. enjoy your mbp :)

[jonstewart]

My sister in law carried her macbook into an apple store the other day because she was having problems with it. It was 13 months old and out of warranty, but they swapped out the hard drive(with a larger version) and replaced some plastic on the case on at the store free of charge. Try that with a Dell at your local mall some time.
If you happen to live near an apple store the service is awesome, and they actually know what they are talking about at the genius bar.

I'm delighted for her (really!), but do you think the hard drive should have failed at 13 months? I had an ipod fail at 13 months and they just didn't want to know. (This is UK though, not US)

...and btw, have you ever tried the same at a Dell store in your local mall? No? In which case it's a meaningless statement if you mean to offer some comparison.

A company I do work for has a fleet of Dell's - notebooks, workstations and servers. They never have a problem with Dells which isn't fixed same working day, most usually by a technician arriving with the replacement unit.

We're all happy when customer service exceeds our expectations. Hoever, some of us have higher expectations than others :-)

We can continue trading stories like this but it boils down to no significant difference between leading brands.

My nearest store is a long, long way away. (There's always PC World, but they don't count - on any basis!)

[jonstewart]

Yup I got:
Processor 065-7441 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Display 065-7448 MacBook Pro 15-inch Widescreen
Memory 065-7444 4GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
Hard Drive 065-7465 200GB Serial ATA @ 7200 rpm
Optical Drive 065-7453 SuperDrive 8x DL

Hey, you stole my notebook!

Enjoy. You'll love it, once you get all the software you need installed, and finished wondering why you ever needed two buttons on the mouse / trackpad, instead of one!
Jon

[cory1848]

I'm delighted for her (really!), but do you think the hard drive should have failed at 13 months? I had an ipod fail at 13 months and they just didn't want to know. (This is UK though, not US)

...and btw, have you ever tried the same at a Dell store in your local mall? No? In which case it's a meaningless statement if you mean to offer some comparison.

A company I do work for has a fleet of Dell's - notebooks, workstations and servers. They never have a problem with Dells which isn't fixed same working day, most usually by a technician arriving with the replacement unit.



I believe there was a recall on the drives last year due to the fact that some were failing. That has since been rectified. It sucks but drives arent made by Apple.

[jonstewart]

I believe there was a recall on the drives last year due to the fact that some were failing. That has since been rectified. It sucks but drives arent made by Apple.

It's good that they recalled and fixed the problem.

One question (and it's non-judgemental, btw!) What exactly is made by Apple any more, now that it's all PC components?

Love the way the multitouch works on the trackpad, but that's software. Absolutely love the design of the Aluminium bluetooth keyboard I'm typing on; I suppose that, at least, is designed by Apple.

EDIT: yes, APple beautifully assemble components. No question about that!
Jon

[Stocky]

Apple designs all of their products. I don't think they produce do any of the hardware in house, just the design.

[turbo212003]

Mac's are overpriced. end of story.

[cory1848]

It's good that they recalled and fixed the problem.

One question (and it's non-judgemental, btw!) What exactly is made by Apple any more, now that it's all PC components?

Love the way the multitouch works on the trackpad, but that's software. Absolutely love the design of the Aluminium bluetooth keyboard I'm typing on; I suppose that, at least, is designed by Apple.

EDIT: yes, APple beautifully assemble components. No question about that!
Jon

Its not the fact that Apple doesnt make the parts, its the fact the Apples OS is designed to run at its best with the parts being used. The big thing that separates them from PC's is that Apple sells both the OS and the machine designed to run the OS exclusively. Windows is designed to run on anything really, with no consideration to crappy components and what not. Go to any computer show and buy $100 in parts and throw a machine together...Then people wonder why it crashes all the time. Intel makes the processors and Apple worked with Intel exclusively to maximize that processor for its OS. Cant really say that for PCs. Now, go buy top quality parts to run windows on and you will have one nice machine, however like I said before, your price point will be comparable to Apples.

To your question about what is actually made by Apple, I should ask....What parts are made by Windows?

[cory1848]

Mac's are overpriced. end of story.

So arent Ferrari's, but have you ever driven one?

[jonstewart]

Its not the fact that Apple doesnt make the parts, its the fact the Apples OS is designed to run at its best with the parts being used. The big thing that separates them from PC's is that Apple sells both the OS and the machine designed to run the OS exclusively. Windows is designed to run on anything really, with no consideration to crappy components and what not. Go to any computer show and buy $100 in parts and throw a machine together...Then people wonder why it crashes all the time. Intel makes the processors and Apple worked with Intel exclusively to maximize that processor for its OS. Cant really say that for PCs. Now, go buy top quality parts to run windows on and you will have one nice machine, however like I said before, your price point will be comparable to Apples.

To your question about what is actually made by Apple, I should ask....What parts are made by Windows?

I generally agree with you here. I have no issue with the cost of Apples: Others do. I bought my MacPro because it was the cheapest way to buy a workstation class PC.

Apple and Dell have one thing in common; They actually test all the component configurations to work with the OS. That's not something you can say of many other manufacturers. Theoretically, all PC components are compatible with each other and the OS, but in real life, this is often not the case.

Glad we could find agreement here
Jon

[keegsmeister]

They should really invent Macbook Pros in 13.3"....

[Village_Idiot]

This has what to do with the business of photography?

[cory1848]

This has what to do with the business of photography?

You really need to ask that?

[Woodja]

once you go mac you'll never go back

[Concorde Rules]

Had a 15.4" 2.4 for 6 months... up until the HD died after dropping it :p

Love it, solid as a rock, been on pretty much 24/7!

10.5.2 FTW! (Used macs since I was 6, I be a veteran!)

[Village_Idiot]

once you go mac you'll never go back

Once you start making dumb generalizations, you look like a fool.

[garbidz]

I think Macs look cool and their publicity is extremely well made.
Windows interface is ugly and the action sounds are dull.
I hate the way it alerts all the time, but I guess the virus threat has made it parano.

I've had problems getting HP Director to work with my G4 PBook under Leopard. Intel machine has no problems once you tick "open using Rosetta" on its "get info" screen.
With the G4, I get to look at the beach ball (processor busy) a bit too much, specially using LightRoom. Again, the Intel machine has no problems.

From guys who sell machines to ordinary people I've been hearing that Macs give their after sales -dpt. a lot less worries than any one of the Winmachines they are selling. Still, people are reluctant to get the Mac as there are "specialists" around sneering at them and making a lot of comments about the things that you cannot do on Macs.

The fact is, most of these things are way beyond ordinary people's realm.
I do photos, an occasional video, music, emails, net and quite some text and numbers.
I use CS2, MS Office, Open Office, Firefox, Safari, Mail.app, TexEdit, Preview, ReadIris, Skype and Shrook. The only apps that have given me trouble are MS Office (French version, what do you expect!) and OpenOffice beta.

I got an XP discount when I bought an external HD. To use it, I got the Parallels Desktop. Thus far it has been used five times during the last eight months. I have no fanatic feelings towards either one of the OS's. I can well see that most of the world is running their Vistas and XP's and virus protection with success. My opinions on the OS's will not change that fact.

The French government decided to go Linux. Knowing the French, it will not work.
I'll stick to Apple as long as it is available. I am already operating in a foreign language all day, why should I complicate matters further changing OS's!


added may 29.2008: HP*HAS*PUBLISHED*AN*UPGRADE*FOR*HP*MANAGER*MAC*OS 10.5. PPC*AND*INTEL.
it works with HP 3055 and G4 pBook running 10.5.

[snails]

I am going to categorically answer the major comments made here and then I'm going to expect everyone to ignore what I have just said.

1. Apple computers are priced competitively as a similarly equiped Windows machine built by a similarly reputable manufacturer. The value of an Apple computer versus a windows machine is up to the user.

2. There is a large library of software available for OSX that allows Apple computers to work with windows based networks. It's not impossible, nor is it particularly difficult. Again, the value is up to the user.

3. Apple uses the same parts suppliers as other computer manufactuers. For every failed drive, keyboard or monitor there is a proportionate number of hardware failures from windows based computers.

My story: I've owned 5 windows based machines in the last 8 years. I built two of them, the others were from big name manufacturers. They all had problems, and I worked through them. The last one I built in June '07 as a gaming PC. The processeor recently died on me for unknown reasons. My point is that I've done the PC thing and I know what's involved.

I also bought a MacBook in December ('07), I bought the cheapest one available because I just needed something for travel. I immediately added 4GB of ram for less than $100 from newegg, there was no way I was going to pay Apple's $400. As much as this was intended to be my travel computer, it became my main computer.

My thought is that yes, you can build a PC for less than the price of an Apple. But anytime you build a computer there is no customer support. Yes, you can buy a PC for less than an Apple. Typically these systems have lower specifications than the smallest of Apples. People buying Apples know what they are getting with their purchase. PC owners are the same way.

Whatever your choice is though, it's going to come down to what you are comfortable with, what your experiecne is and what you want.

[jonstewart]

The fact is, most of these things are way beyond ordinary people's realm.


I don't think games are 'way beyond ordinary people's realm'. I do agree with you that if you just want to surf, and write the odd email and document, they're perfect!

If you keep it simple, they'll work great for you - and I think that applies to well built windows boxes as well.

My mum has a Dell windows box, and whatever it's supposed deficiencies, it works fine for her!

Jon

[a_kraker99]

I cant speak for MAC but I think the problem that PC's have is the amount of crap they come with when you buy them from somewhere like dell. The average user doesent know what they can get rid of or what they need so they just keep it all. I big line of crap on the bottom right of your screen. Ugh. my pet peeve. Another reason I prefer building my own PC. Clean windows install.

[tbsteph]

Discussing computer brands is almost like comparing Canon with Nikon, Sony etc. Everyone seems to have the absolute answer and those that disagree must be an idiot. (For what its worth, I own both a Dell notebook and a Macbook.)

No question about it, Windows based machines offer a much wider variety of choices. Some are cheaper than what Apple offers, some are not. However, one thing no Windows based machine offers is the ability to run both OSX and Windows on the same computer. If you find that advantageous you have one choice - MacIntosh.

[jonstewart]

or Hackintosh!

[jpvaz]

or Hackintosh!

Funny, i was just about to say the same thing... hehehe

On Macworld's website you even have instructions on how to build a Mac from PC parts, they even use one named "FrankenMac" as a comparison in tests, it belongs to Rob Griffiths wich is one of the editors on Macworld magazine.

http://www.macworld.com/article/133028/2008/04/building_mac_clone.html

[sfaust]

It's amazing that some arguments never die. But its quite predicable too. When you have two competing products which are both high quality, there will always be debates on which is better that can ever be resolved. When you have one product that is vastly inferior, the argument usually dies fairly quickly. The fact this argument is still taking place after this long is testament that they are both equals. Same with Ford vs Chevy, Canon vs Nikon, and so on.

I personally have been entrenched in Windows since windows 1.0 in the mid 80's. It's had its ups ad downs, and so has Apple. Hardware is hardware and the major players in both camps use quality components, many of which are from the same sources, and all of which has had their bouts of premature failures. No manufacturer is immune.

Just about every PC I've owned has been rock solid from the OS and hardware perspective. The issues I've had has always been related to errant applications, bad/outdated drivers from vendors, or software trying to push the limits of the machine for the best performance (games, etc).

If anyone takes the time to price out the machines for EQUAL performance and specifications, the Mac's are neck in the neck with the major players on the PC side. A MacBook pro costs $2K, but its a high end product and can not be compared against a $900 PC laptop as the specs are vastly different. But copy the specs from a MacBook Pro, overlay them on a PC laptop of comparable specs, and that PC will cost you in the same $2K range. Oranges to oranges, they are in the same price range.

I've never believed in anti-virus software, and always felt the threat was over-rated for most people. Granted, the risks are high for those doing a lot of downloads, visiting hacking sites, music sharing sites and software, etc. But I've never been hit with a virus in 20 years, and never ran anti-virus software. I just practice safe computing, hide behind a router and firewalls, and I've been fine. Granted, I install my major applications, and a handful of utilities, and just work, so the risk is lower right off the bat. Every now and then I will use a anti-virus program to search for viruses, but it never turns up anything significant. So I've never felt the need to run it on a daily basis. If I were a tinkerer, I may think differently. But as a basic business and creative (images/video) user, its never been an issue.

To me, that only leaves two important things in the decision process. Compatibility with your existing environment and software applications, and what/how you will be using the computer.

In the business world, Windows rule and integrating a non windows into the environment isn't straightforward or easy. Data sharing and compatibility are concerns, and technical expertise could be lacking.

In the creative world, Macs rule and integrating a non Mac into the environment isn't straightforward or easy. Data sharing and compatibility are concerns, and technical expertise could be lacking.

Two different worlds, but neither better than the other.

(partly typed on a 15" MacBook Pro, and Sony Viao XP Machine. Just for fun, I added a paragraph while on my BlackBerry just so I can say I did :) )

[jonstewart]

Thanks goodness, Stephen. I thought I was the only one there for a minute!

(PS: Good site, and great photos!)

Jon

[garbidz]

I don't think games are 'way beyond ordinary people's realm'. I do agree with you that if you just want to surf, and write the odd email and document, they're perfect!

If you keep it simple, they'll work great for you - and I think that applies to well built windows boxes as well.

My mum has a Dell windows box, and whatever it's supposed deficiencies, it works fine for her!

Jon

if you want to do games, boot up the Mac as a Winmachine with Bootcamp.
I know very few adults who play computer games (or watch television).
Maybe my statistic sample is skewed.

[jonstewart]

You have a valid point there, to some degree. The problem is that using bootcamp may appear simple, but is just the sort of thing that non technical people have a problem (especially when it doesn't work properly), when you consider the vagaries of both bootcamp and Apple's driver pack. Believe me, I have lots of experience of both.

...and I am an adult who plays games! (Wish I had more time to do so!)

All the best
Jon

[FLY GTI]

I bought a MacBook (non Pro) about 2-3 weeks ago. There is definitely a learning curve there. I did get a little frustrated without the right click (haven't tried with a mouse yet), and with the intuitiveness of the macbook. Almost too intuitive at times. IE trying to get smaller picture into iWeb. It gives 3 or 4 preset sizes, with no lower then 600 x 600 pixel resolution. There is now way to lower the resolution within iweb. You have to export the images, with the resolution you specify (I had a hard time figuring this out on my own).

However - even with the learning curve a Macbook is a valuable tool to me. I had a draft website up within 1 hour of powering the book on for the first time, and the final website up the next day. I know this could be done on my PC, but I don't think it could of been done within the same time frame, or as hassle free as the Mac did.

I'm hoping that this is the tip of the iceberg.

[noobzor]

I just got my 15in pro the other day.

From changing from windows to osx it was a huge change, but im gettin there.

I do enjoy the little things as mentioned, alum case, awsome wifi , light sensors, quiet keyboard, nice high res screen compared to my old 17" HP.

I had gotten the 15in , 2.4ghz duo, 4gb ram , 250gb hd.

[jonstewart]

I did get a little frustrated without the right click

Set your multi touch touchpad to 'two finger tap' right mouse button in system preferences. Much better than the mouse!

(Mine is two finger tap == right mouse button, ie context menu, and two finger drag == scroll. This is great since it scrolls both horizontally and vertically, even when using Vista through Parallels.)

Hope this helps
Jon

[flyingwolf]

By the time the average consumer upgrades everything to similar specs, they are looking at comparable price lines...

There is a lot of good back and forth on this thread but this item form page one just had to be commented on.

I recently built my new work machine, its a Quad core, with 8 gigs of RAM, 2 Dual DVI 1 gig video cards powering two 22 inch monitors.

Its the most powerful machine we have in our house and only comes in second to the demo rig we use as work which cost 7k to build (including the cost of the 50 inch plasma).

Total cost for all of that performance? 779 dollars.

Find me a quad core mac with 8 gigs of matched RAM for under 1000 (and don't forget two 22 inch monitors with a graphics card for each).

While I agree that Macs have good specs and are good computers, they are simply no match for a good well built PC.

[EnronRocks]

I am finally making the switch. I ordered my macbook pro today. Can anyone tell me the loves and hates of it

NO WAI!!!!!!!! I ordered one a few days ago, what did you get? The 15 or 17 inch one?

I love my iMac, but there is no way anyone can sit and tell me that they are comparable in prices. A MacBook is way too expansive compared to a Windows laptop prebuilt, and the same goes for anything Apple makes. You are not in anyway paying for the quality of a product when you purchase a Apple product, you are purchasing a lifestyle.

I will admit thought I do love my lil 20" iMac, and I am sure I will love my MacBook pro.

[sfaust]

I recently built my new work machine, its a Quad core, with 8 gigs of RAM, 2 Dual DVI 1 gig video cards powering two 22 inch monitors....

....Total cost for all of that performance? 779 dollars......

Find me a quad core mac with 8 gigs of matched RAM for under 1000 (and don't forget two 22 inch monitors with a graphics card for each).... .

Keep in mind you are comparing apples to oranges here, unless of course you are offering those systems for sale ready to go at $800 with 1 year warranty. If so, sign me up for 5,000 for my initial order, with more orders to follow!!! ;)

The Apple was designed, built, integrated, and delivered ready to go for you, just plug it in, turn it on, and you're on the internet in minutes.

Your $800 machine is a box of parts. You need to add labor for design, assembly, integration, setup of drivers, software, etc,. Not the same out of the box experience, nor within the range of the average PC user.

To compare favorably, you need to walk into a retail computer store and walk out with ready to go machines, one from Apple, one from say Sony, Dell, Gateway, HP, or similar, with equal specs. That is a fair comparison, and I guarantee you won't find a $800 computer that can hold a match to a $3K Mac Pro system. And if you do this exercise, you'll find they are very much in line with each other price wise.

BTW, $800 just for the parts is an outrageous deal, especially when it includes two 22" monitors, 2 graphics cards, 8GB memory, hard disk space, power supply, case, motherboard, and so on. Can you give us the low down on what parts you used, and the vendors. I've got an aging PC that I'd love to spruce up for $800 to a quad core, 8GB, dual monitor machine as a backup to my main editing system. It would be a great use of $800. I would have expected it to cost far more, so I never really looked into it. But I will now.

Something we all should thnk about two. The OP asked about what we love or hate about making the switch. It seems we are just going down the patch of no return in the PC vs Mac debate.

[Steve Beck]

I am finally making the switch. I ordered my macbook pro today. Can anyone tell me the loves and hates of it

Bet you wish you didn't ask this question with all the Gates lackys. Nice choice you will love it. i have yet to find anything i do not like since seeing the light and dumping windows and moving on to a machines that is what all computer should be like.

[Steve Beck]

This is typical. Must not have actually shelled out the money to BUY windows. it is easy to built a PC with $50 MB, $75 video card, $40 case to screw it all in to, $70 hd etc. Apples to oranges you are trying to compare here.

There is a lot of good back and forth on this thread but this item form page one just had to be commented on.

I recently built my new work machine, its a Quad core, with 8 gigs of RAM, 2 Dual DVI 1 gig video cards powering two 22 inch monitors.

Its the most powerful machine we have in our house and only comes in second to the demo rig we use as work which cost 7k to build (including the cost of the 50 inch plasma).

Total cost for all of that performance? 779 dollars.

Find me a quad core mac with 8 gigs of matched RAM for under 1000 (and don't forget two 22 inch monitors with a graphics card for each).

While I agree that Macs have good specs and are good computers, they are simply no match for a good well built PC.

[sfaust]

I am finally making the switch. I ordered my macbook pro today. Can anyone tell me the loves and hates of it

I guess we should actually get back to the original question.

Here is my experience from using them both over the years, and most recently adding some new MAC's with OS X to our studio.

Short answer is I really like them both. Both are rock solid if treated correctly. Both have issues that bother me. But I would be happy with either one if forced upon me for one reason or another. I guess that puts me right on the fence as a Appindows lover. :)

Price wise, I found the MAC's very competitive with comparable PC's. When I spec'd them out for the same benchmarks performance wise, then matched up the memory, hard disk space, screen technology and size, I found the prices right on par with anything the PC world had to offer.

I've been pushing Windows hard with digital imaging and video for the last 10 years, and haven been living on the tier just below the leading edge. I typically don't buy the latest and greatest, but grab the next model down. I don't switch to a new OS until it been out for a year, and has had a couple updates to get the bugs out. This strategy has worked well for me and always resulted in very stable windows platforms.

Reliability wise, in the 20 years I've been using Windows (yes, I used version 1.0), I've only had issues with WindowsMe. And I had so many issues with that OS over the period of a year, I finally threw the laptop off my upstairs deck against a stone wall (long story why-Sony tied ME to hardware and no drivers for anything else basically), then went out a bought a new machine. Live was good again :) None were without issues, but neither has my MAC experience been either. Stability wise, I find them neck in neck at the finish line.

All my other machines were fairly high end, but all very rock solid. When I got a machine, I would format the disk and install a fresh installation of windows, update the drivers, then install my apps. This dumped all the bloat ware, and made sure I have a clean install. Once everything was working, I made a bootable backup, and started working. Everything was solid and worked fine. I would update drivers and applications as needed. Life was good.

On my home machine, with multiple users, downloading games, apps, adding this, removing that, changing this, changing that, new hardware, swapping, failed install attempts, powering off without shutting down, etc, No surprise it had issues, but I can't really blame the OS in such a hostile environment. And I know so many home users that do the same, and have issues with Windows. I truly believe users do more harm to their system, then the OS or viruses themselves. And I can't tell you how many times people complain that they got a virus, and after talking with them about it found its user error, old drivers, bad installs, or something entirely different. People seem really quick to blame it on a virus, especially if they aren't technically inclined.

But even with all that going on, and not running any anti-virus software, I've never had any signifiant issue with viruses. I didn't download things blindly off the internet. I ran from behind a router/firewall. Used a good spam filter, and didn't open e-mail attachments, macros, etc, without knowing the source. Thats worked for me for the last 2x years (my first PC was a IBM PC-AT-dating myself big time).

Ok, some things I don't like about OS X.

The Finder is 'stupid' compared to Windows Explorer. OMG, give me Explorer on the MAC. I really hated it until I found a replacement called Path Finder. Path Finder is very similar to Explorer, and much better in other ways. But applications still use the Finder dialog box for dealing with files, so I'm still stuck with using it. Its usable, but come on. Why would I have to resize my window and column every time I open the Finder dialogs! Geezzze!

One major thing that bugs me is that when you are running two monitors, the application menus that normally follow the application on the Windows Title Bar doesn't with the Mac. On the Mac, it it always at the top of the main monitor. Thus if you drag an application window to the second monitor and want to use any of the applications menus, you have to mouse all the way over to the first monitor at the very far top left. Doing this often to access an applications menus is really annoying. Some mMAC uses hail that saying they like how they always know where to find it. Heck, I felt the same way on windows, as it was always right at the top of the applications window where you are working! Bingo!

Overall, the OS just feels more restrictive in how you access and use it. Ie, in windows you can resize the window by dragging on any window edge, where in OS X you have to grab the lower right corner. Just one example, but I find stuff like this throughout the OS. They could make live so much easier for us with some user interface tweaking. If feels like they take the approach that my way is best, jump on board. Rather than understanding everyone works differently, and lets give the user more control over their environment.

Apple makes things look cool! Nice. But many times as the expense of ergonomics or functionality. First thing that went was the cool very slim, tiny keyboard, and that mouse with only one button. Right clicking is so convenient and efficient that I needed a 'real' mouse :)

Lack of software variety. You can find most utilities you want, especially with popular items, but you are limited. I found apps to everything I needed, expect for one. SnagIt. An awesome screen capture program. While I can capture screens on the MAC, its no where close to what SnagIt gives you. I couldn't find much for a number of other software I had which was nice, but not really required. So I have limited my self on the 'secondary' software, but I can live without it.

Some things I really do like;

Plug and Play. Really! I opened the box, connected up all the cables, printer, external disks, wacom tablet, etc. This was a test. I powered up the brand new machine and guess what. Everything was configured and ready to work. I was on the internet, the tablet worked, things printed, external drives showed up, and so on. Granted, installing drivers will give some of those things additional features or functions, but it just worked! Try that on your next Windows machine!

Design again, as a plus. When it doesn't interfere with ergonomics, a sweet design is nothing short of satisfying. I haven't seen anything on the PC side that is as stylish and clean as the Apple designed products. As a creative professional, I appreciate the clean styling and lines. It looks great just sitting in the office :)

I'll think of more, but thats all I have at the moment.

[EnronRocks]

This is typical. Must not have actually shelled out the money to BUY windows. it is easy to built a PC with $50 MB, $75 video card, $40 case to screw it all in to, $70 hd etc. Apples to oranges you are trying to compare here.

Windows only costs $250 ish for Home Premium, to be honest if you are a student you can get a copy for free, if you work for a employer who is part of the Microsoft Software Exchange you can get a copy for free, and if you wanted to shell out a hundred or something dollars a year you could become part of the MSDN network you get copies for free.

The really funny part is, that millions of people continue to run illegal copies of software made by Microsoft, yet they continue to make billions while Apple sits and continues to make ridiculously childish commercials that still make little to no sense to millions of people who actually understand how to use a Windows operated computer.

[cory1848]

The really funny part is, that millions of people continue to run illegal copies of software made by Microsoft, yet they continue to make billions while Apple sits and continues to make ridiculously childish commercials that still make little to no sense to millions of people who actually understand how to use a Windows operated computer.

But isnt that smart business practice? 95% of the population doesnt understand how to operate any computer, so by Apple making it easy out of the box, they are winning some of the market share.... Those childish commercials do actually work...cant fault Apple so being creative...

[sfaust]

.... Those childish commercials do actually work...cant fault Apple so being creative...

Those childish commercials work, and work very very well.

I've used Mac's a lot in the past, but have only been an owner for a few weeks (bought a MacPro and MacBookPro when we switched). I can't tell you how many times I've overhead conversations of PC users walking into the store and reciting Apples marketing messages. No viruses.... It just works.... etc, nearly word for word right out of the ads.

I cringe when they say "I'm tired of dealing with PC issues, so I want Mac because its foolproof", and then watch the salesperson reaffirm their disbeliefs. Or when the salesperson tells there there is no known virus for OS X at the present time, and then sells them the latest Mac anti-virus program with their new MacBook that guarantees it will detect and remove all known OS X viruses (shellware??).

They may be childish, but their message is getting out there loud and clear. And as you know, the truth is only what you hear over and over and over again ;)

[jonstewart]

There is a lot of good back and forth on this thread but this item form page one just had to be commented on.

I recently built my new work machine, its a Quad core, with 8 gigs of RAM, 2 Dual DVI 1 gig video cards powering two 22 inch monitors.

Find me a quad core mac with 8 gigs of matched RAM for under 1000 (and don't forget two 22 inch monitors with a graphics card for each).

While I agree that Macs have good specs and are good computers, they are simply no match for a good well built PC.

I take it those weren't Xeon processors then?
Jon

[garbidz]

You have a valid point there, to some degree. The problem is that using bootcamp may appear simple, but is just the sort of thing that non technical people have a problem (especially when it doesn't work properly), when you consider the vagaries of both bootcamp and Apple's driver pack. Believe me, I have lots of experience of both.

...and I am an adult who plays games! (Wish I had more time to do so!)

All the best
Jon

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I thought all the gamers are technical.
BTW, How does it feel to be an adult? I am only 55 and looking forward to adulthood with an increasing amount of inquietude. My friends have all turned grey and all they talk about is their prostates and their retirement plans.
Is there any way out other than an ikeba..subar..seppuku? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=kcAXSsy_Ea0)
( it looks like something that might spoil your dinner)

[jonstewart]

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I thought all the gamers are technical.
BTW, How does it feel to be an adult? I am only 55 and looking forward to adulthood with an increasing amount of inquietude. My friends have all turned grey and all they talk about is their prostates and their retirement plans.
Is there any way out other than an ikeba..subar..seppuku? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=kcAXSsy_Ea0)
( it looks like something that might spoil your dinner)

Well, when I say I'm an adult, that's only convention., being in my 40's. Inside I've got the vigour and youth of a 20 year old!

Live young, stay young!
All the best
Jon

[Jryan]

I don't know about the price thing there. I work in IT (I do about 80% product photography and 20% IT work these days) and it;s pretty easy to spec out a machine (linux or even windows) that is a lot cheaper than the Mac counterpart unless you are talking about the top end 8 core Mac Pro desktop models. In fact you can spec out a higher end PC.

I like Mac and would move and use parallels but for the cost.

[flyingwolf]

In fact yes I did purchase all of the software on my PC, it is a work PC and I must audit it yearly.

I can get XP Pro (OEM edition) for 50 USD, and even can get Vista Ultimate (system builders edition, no fancy box just the disk and key) for 150 USD.

And your right, they weren't Xeon cores, they were AMD Phenoms.

I spent about a month picking up parts from local stores and online. So there was some work involved there but it took me a whole hour to put together and another 2 hours to install all the needed software (thats not counting the windows installs, its quad booting XP Pro, Xp Pro x64, Vista Ultimate and Vista Ultimate x64).

I still hold true that the best computer is the one that works best for you.
For me these powerful machines all work perfectly for me. For others Macs work best.

It will always come down to personal choice, I love my trackball and would never give it up, others cannot stand the thing. Too bad its no longer sold.

And as for the OP's question, for a while I did have to use a Mac. There was one major thing that always annoyed the hell out of me, lack of small program compatibility.
I use so many small helper apps that simply aren't available for the Mac, for me I LOVE machine code, so PC's work for me.

[jonstewart]

That's a huge saving, not having Xeons, and the memory that goes with them, along with the twin memory controllers, and the fast cache on the board!

The reason I'm interested is that when I bought my MacPro (twin 3.0G Xeons) 18 months ago, it was the cheapest way of buying a workstation class PC (in part because of the high price of parts here in UK).

Nevertheless, you're not comparing similar machines!
Jon

[sfaust]

I spent about a month picking up parts from local stores and online. So there was some work involved there but it took me ....

Any chance you can give us the details on what you got, how much, and where we can get the same parts?

I'm serious, in that I have my older PC that I would be more than happy to gut and rebuild to the level you mentioned for $799. I don't think I could find the 8GB memory, two 1GB video cards, two 22" monitors, and a hard disk, all of similar specs found in a Quad MacPro for $800. Let alone also getting a case, power supply, motherboard, OS, keyboard, mouse, etc.

Revamping my older PC for $800 to a quad core 8GB equivalent of my MacPro would be perfect for backup purposes.

[jonstewart]

Any chance you can give us the details on what you got, how much, and where we can get the same parts?

I'm serious, in that I have my older PC that I would be more than happy to gut and rebuild to the level you mentioned for $799. I don't think I could find the 8GB memory, two 1GB video cards, two 22" monitors, and a hard disk, all of similar specs found in a Quad MacPro for $800. Let alone also getting a case, power supply, motherboard, OS, keyboard, mouse, etc.

Revamping my older PC for $800 to a quad core 8GB equivalent of my MacPro would be perfect for backup purposes.

Stephen, he hasn't built anywhere near the equivalent MacPro spec!
Jon

[sfaust]

What, you mean it was too good to be true ;)

But I was ready to order 5,000 and resell them for $2,500 each. :lol:

[jonstewart]

What, you mean it was too good to be true ;)

But I was ready to order 5,000 and resell them for $2,500 each. :lol:

You just stick to what you do best, Stephen, and stop tryin' to make a quick buck! ;)

Jon

[sfaust]

I guess I should cancel that vacation in Spain that I booked banking on the profits I was going to make :(

[flyingwolf]

So what your saying is your calling me a liar, thanks.

As I said I shopped around for a few months and purchased the parts at different times.

The memory I found for a great deal on Newegg, 2 2 gig sticks for only 98 dollars after rebate (which came in the male 2 days ago). Purchased 3 sets of those in fact, 8 gigs for me, and gave the other 4 gigs to my wife who has XP pro (though 32 bit windows cannot see the full four gigs).

The machine runs perfectly and so far with intense breaking using Sandra I haven't had a single error. The original audio card I bought to supplement the on board audio did cause me problems at first, once it was switched out for a new unit it has been rock stable.

I purchased from Newegg.com, geeks.com, monoprice.com and my local Microcenter Mall. The two monitors were the bulk of the price at 150 each after rebate.

All parts are rated high quality and have been through stress testing.

And again, thanks allot for calling me a liar, all you need is a bit of smarts and you too can save yourself allot of money. But if you want to spend 2500 for what I paid under 1k for, have fun, its your money.

[sfaust]

I don't think anyone is calling you a liar, but there does seem to be some disbelief.

So far we have....

Memory 2 2GB sticks for $98, 8GB = $198
(what brand should I be looking for?)

22" monitors @$150 each for $300
(brand of model number?)

That's half the $799 you mentioned you built an equivalent MacPro spec'd PC for. Even if you just priced the remaining parts at $50 a piece, unheard of pricing, you would exceed the $800 by a large margin.

Motherboard
Processors
2 video cards w/1GB each
Case
Power Supply
Dual Ethernet card/1000 Base-T
Hard disk 320GB/sATA/7200
Audio card
Keyboard, mouse

Under those circumstances, you shouldn't be surprised to find skeptics. But hey, list out your components, specs, cost, manufacturers and throw a little pooh pooh in their direction ;)

[cory1848]

So what your saying is your calling me a liar, thanks.

As I said I shopped around for a few months and purchased the parts at different times.

The memory I found for a great deal on Newegg, 2 2 gig sticks for only 98 dollars after rebate (which came in the male 2 days ago). Purchased 3 sets of those in fact, 8 gigs for me, and gave the other 4 gigs to my wife who has XP pro (though 32 bit windows cannot see the full four gigs).

The machine runs perfectly and so far with intense breaking using Sandra I haven't had a single error. The original audio card I bought to supplement the on board audio did cause me problems at first, once it was switched out for a new unit it has been rock stable.

I purchased from Newegg.com, geeks.com, monoprice.com and my local Microcenter Mall. The two monitors were the bulk of the price at 150 each after rebate.

All parts are rated high quality and have been through stress testing.

And again, thanks allot for calling me a liar, all you need is a bit of smarts and you too can save yourself allot of money. But if you want to spend 2500 for what I paid under 1k for, have fun, its your money.

That 8 gigs of memory I guarantee you wont run in a mac. There is a reason apple memory is expensive, because its configured to the machine. Throw a bunch of crap in it and it will have problems....maybe not right away but I can guess you will be replacing it.

Again, as I said toward the beginning of the thread, Apples run very smoothly due to the fact that every piece of hardware is configured to work with the system for the best performance. You dont take a Ferrari and start putting Walmart parts on it and expect the same performance...

For monitors...I have $160 22" monitor as well, works good for what I need, however is doesnt even compare to the apple version...Sit in front of one all day doing graphic work and you can see the difference.

Not doubting your thriftiness, however, until you have the experience of both machines in a heavy production environment, you wont see any difference...

[jonstewart]

Nobody's calling anybody a liar. I think there's a misunderstanding about the performance of the MacPro's.

I'll reiterate; I bought a Mac Pro because it was the CHEAPEST way of buying a workstation class PC.

The memory used in MacPro's is for Xeon processor based machines, 800MHz DDR2 ECC fully buffered DIMM (FB-DIMM) memory

Here's the cheapest 8Gb pack at newegg http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820349021

as you can see it's $599 alone! Now let's see that computer for under $1000??

[jonstewart]

There is a reason apple memory is expensive, because its configured to the machine. Throw a bunch of crap in it and it will have problems....maybe not right away but I can guess you will be replacing it.

That's not quite right, Cory. The Apple memory is exactly the same as any other memory used for workstation class PC's and server's. It's not configured at all to the machine. I have some Dell Memory running in my MacPro, because it was a lot cheaper than buying memory straight from Apple (but it is of the same spec).

Anything other specification of memory won't work, so this cheaper memory is out; I don't mean it'll be slower: it simply won't work. The computer would throw an error on startup, even if you could fit it in the mem slot! MacBookPro's however, the memory can be bought very cheap, as it's only standard memory (recently 4Gb memory for my MBP was £60($120), whereas the 4Gb for the MacPro was about £600 ($1200). Your prices are much cheaper than here in the UK!)

On the subject of monitors; I have the Dell 2407, which is of the same quality as the Apple, but a bit cheaper - still not peanuts, but a bit cheaper. I can't imagine wanting to run any high end pc on a 'cheap' monitor!


Hope this helps
Jon

[cory1848]

That's not quite right, Cory. The Apple memory is exactly the same as any other memory used for workstation class PC's and server's. It's not configured at all to the machine. I have some Dell Memory running in my MacPro, because it was a lot cheaper than buying memory straight from Apple (but it is of the same spec).

Anything other specification of memory won't work, so this cheaper memory is out; I don't mean it'll be slower: it simply won't work. The computer would throw an error on startup, even if you could fit it in the mem slot! MacBookPro's however, the memory can be bought very cheap, as it's only standard memory (recently 4Gb memory for my MBP was £60($120), whereas the 4Gb for the MacPro was about £600 ($1200). Your prices are much cheaper than here in the UK!)

On the subject of monitors; I have the Dell 2407, which is of the same quality as the Apple, but a bit cheaper - still not peanuts, but a bit cheaper. I can't imagine wanting to run any high end pc on a 'cheap' monitor!


Hope this helps
Jon

By configured I mean Apple requires a certain memory for best performance. All because something is the same spec doesnt mean its the same quality. Now, with that said... I would expect workstation class memory to be up to par, however, I dont think thats what flyingwolf got, at least not for $49 for a 2 gig stick. How much was 2 gigs of your workstation class memory? Last time I checked it was a lot more than $49 (US). Its been awhile since I bought memory, so I could be wrong.
Less than quality memory will work in some instances...its not necessarily a work or doesnt work type of thing... It will work then unexpectedly will crash, throw Kernal panics, slow performance, etc... First thing Apple techs check for when a machine is brought in for problems is what memory is being used. That usually clears problems up right away when that is fixed.

[tbsteph]

There are several places where one can purchase quality memory for any Mac that is priced significantly below that charged by Apple. One example is Crucial. 4G (2 x 2) for a little over $100. I've personally used their products for both Apple and PC based systems without any issues.


http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=MacBook%20Pro%202.6GHz%20Inte l%20Core%202%20Duo%20%2815.4-inch%29#

[hitmanh]

By configured I mean Apple requires a certain memory for best performance. All because something is the same spec doesnt mean its the same quality. Now, with that said... I would expect workstation class memory to be up to par, however, I dont think thats what flyingwolf got, at least not for $49 for a 2 gig stick. How much was 2 gigs of your workstation class memory? Last time I checked it was a lot more than $49 (US). Its been awhile since I bought memory, so I could be wrong.
Less than quality memory will work in some instances...its not necessarily a work or doesnt work type of thing... It will work then unexpectedly will crash, throw Kernal panics, slow performance, etc... First thing Apple techs check for when a machine is brought in for problems is what memory is being used. That usually clears problems up right away when that is fixed.

The memory modules used in mac pros are standard off the shelf components. They are not special in anyway, as is the rest of the hardware (all made by manufacturers that make standard PC components). There are a lot of good reasons for using a mac, but the hardware is no different to that in standard PCs.

[cory1848]

The memory modules used in mac pros are standard off the shelf components. They are not special in anyway, as is the rest of the hardware (all made by manufacturers that make standard PC components). There are a lot of good reasons for using a mac, but the hardware is no different to that in standard PCs.

Go back and read the thread...and you will find where I stated how they are different... IF the hardware was not any different, why cant you install Windows on a Mac as the main OS? Its the same reason why you cant go get your regular Asus board and through it in a mac...Sure you could hack it, but then your asking for a machine that has the potential to fail...

[cory1848]

There are several places where one can purchase quality memory for any Mac that is priced significantly below that charged by Apple. One example is Crucial. 4G (2 x 2) for a little over $100. I've personally used their products for both Apple and PC based systems without any issues.


http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=MacBook%20Pro%202.6GHz%20Inte l%20Core%202%20Duo%20%2815.4-inch%29#



Apparently laptop memory is a lot cheaper than desktop... Crucial is a good company, as is Kingston... This is what I was comparing things too..

http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=Mac%20Pro%20%284-core%20Xeon%205400%20Series%29&pl=Apple&cat=RAM

[jonstewart]

Apparently laptop memory is a lot cheaper than desktop... Crucial is a good company, as is Kingston... This is what I was comparing things too..

http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=Mac%20Pro%20%284-core%20Xeon%205400%20Series%29&pl=Apple&cat=RAM

I think that was my point; MBP memory is bog standard; Not so the MacPro memory, which is what we're talking about.

(and Cory, we're singing off the same hymnsheet here, in case my post doesn't make that obvious!)
Jon

[OdiN1701]

Macs are overpriced....

Standard MacPro - $2800

Now what can I get in a PC for $2800?

Here is what I configured for $2775 (no monitor...not counting shipping...same with the Mac)

Dual 2.83GHz Quad-Core Xeons - just like the mac
Motherboard with integrated RAID and SAS (Mac you have to add RAID)
8GB RAM (vs. the paltry 2GB in the Mac....come on...2GB with dual quad cores? Why?)
512MB Video Card (Same card as the mac, but twice the memory)
Dual 500GB HD's in RAID for backup - the mac has a single 320GB
20X DVD w/ LightScribe (vs. the Mac's 16X)

You get much more value for your money with the PC.

[cory1848]

Macs are overpriced....

Standard MacPro - $2800

Now what can I get in a PC for $2800?

Here is what I configured for $2775 (no monitor...not counting shipping...same with the Mac)

Dual 2.83GHz Quad-Core Xeons - just like the mac
Motherboard with integrated RAID and SAS (Mac you have to add RAID)
8GB RAM (vs. the paltry 2GB in the Mac....come on...2GB with dual quad cores? Why?)
512MB Video Card (Same card as the mac, but twice the memory)
Dual 500GB HD's in RAID for backup - the mac has a single 320GB
20X DVD w/ LightScribe (vs. the Mac's 16X)

You get much more value for your money with the PC.

Yup, all that and you still get to deal with Bill Gates lovely operating system....

[OdiN1701]

Yup, all that and you still get to deal with Bill Gates lovely operating system....

What's wrong with it? I've been using MS operating systems since DOS. Been through Windows 3, NT4, Win95, Win98, WinMe (Never used that one on my personal system), Win2k, WinXP, and now I'm using Vista Ultimate.

I have not had any issues with the OS for the most part. Sure there are quirks here and there. But since I've been using Vista, I have had no issues whatsoever. It works great and is much faster than XP from what I have seen.

I have used the MacOS and Apple systems as well and they are no better. They crash too. But the only crashes that I have ever had with my PC's were related to hardware or drivers for hardware. Specifically bad memory (easy fix, replaced by manufacturer) and piss poor Creative drivers causing issues. I've never had Vista crash on me yet. XP only due to bad RAM. Otherwise ran perfect.

[flyingwolf]

Ok folks lets break it down.

After rebates, Monitors were 150 each, 300 USD.
Monitors are 22 inch Sceptre X22WG's.
http://www.sce2ptre.com/Products/LCD/Specifications/spec_x22wg_1080p.htm
With the rebates it was basically buy one get one free. Couldn't pass it up.

Case, Had a case here that I used, so that was of no expense.

Mobo, MSI K9A2 Platimun,
Combined with AMD Phenom 9500 2.2 GHz Quad core.
Cost of 308.99.
(Rebate of 65 USD brings the price to 243.99).

Memory, 4 gigs of G.Skill, DDR2 800, regular price of 129, instant rebate of 40, price, 89.99. Then Manufactuers rebate of 40. Total price 49.99 x2 = 99.98.

Video Cards, 2 Powercooler AX3650's. 89.99 with a 25 mail in Rebate. Total price 64.99 x2 = 128.98.

So, add it up.

300 + 243.99 + 99.98 + 128.98 = 772.95.

I already own a copy of Vista Ultimate but if I wanted to purchase another I could get it from Microcenter Mall for 150. System builders price.

The memory is matched memory, ECC and very stable.
Memtest showed no errors after 24 hours, after 48 hours of burn in the mobo, cpu and video card showed no errors.

I am considering this machine rock solid.

Oh I almost forgot the audio card.
Because the first one was messed up they sent me a replacement. However they never charged my card again after the refund. So I called and asked what was up, they told me the price had been taken care of. Perks of working in the audio industry I guess.

[garbidz]

I would be a bit careful about the "value for money" -statement.
For me, value for money is that I plug in a machine, turn it on and the machine churns what it is supposed to. French fries, espresso coffee, spam, etc.

To me, having to configure something is a negative value.
"Better value" in computing for me would be pretty much what Mac is giving to me nowadays. I do not mind the price if the product is what I want.

This is how free market economy works and I sort of like it.
I gladly let others hunt for exotic high-end components and get their thrills when their creation goes "hummmmm" in a big way.

It is their value judgement, I am not contesting it.
Just let me have my Mac.

[OdiN1701]

I would be a bit careful about the "value for money" -statement.
For me, value for money is that I plug in a machine, turn it on and the machine churns what it is supposed to. French fries, espresso coffee, spam, etc.

To me, having to configure something is a negative value.
"Better value" in computing for me would be pretty much what Mac is giving to me nowadays. I do not mind the price if the product is what I want.

This is how free market economy works and I sort of like it.
I gladly let others hunt for exotic high-end components and get their thrills when their creation goes "hummmmm" in a big way.

It is their value judgement, I am not contesting it.
Just let me have my Mac.

My PC does just what it's supposed to do all the time. To say that a Mac "just works" out of the box any better than a PC is ludicrous. To think you don't have to configure anything on a Mac is also ludicrous. Last I checked, they couldn't read minds and connect to a network without any user input at all. They don't write documents or edit photos for you.

I don't get the whole "It's so easy to use!" statement from Mac users. It's no more or less easy than a Windows PC. I have used both. I find that a Mac is "harder" to use than Windows....mainly because I'm familiar with Windows. I don't know right where everything is on a Mac that I would want to get to - so I would have to hunt around a bit. Same can be said for a Mac user using Windows - they would be familiar with the layout of the Mac OS, but not Windows. The concepts and use of the operating system is exactly the same. Point, click, drag, etc. In that regards, both systems are equally as intuitive. It's just learning the inner workings that will take longer either way.

Of course people have preferences. You like your Mac - cool, use it. But I don't see spending additional money and getting less performance for that money than with a PC. I like fast, reliable systems. I get the best from my money by going with a PC.

[cory1848]

What's wrong with it? I've been using MS operating systems since DOS. Been through Windows 3, NT4, Win95, Win98, WinMe (Never used that one on my personal system), Win2k, WinXP, and now I'm using Vista Ultimate.

I have not had any issues with the OS for the most part. Sure there are quirks here and there. But since I've been using Vista, I have had no issues whatsoever. It works great and is much faster than XP from what I have seen.

I have used the MacOS and Apple systems as well and they are no better. They crash too. But the only crashes that I have ever had with my PC's were related to hardware or drivers for hardware. Specifically bad memory (easy fix, replaced by manufacturer) and piss poor Creative drivers causing issues. I've never had Vista crash on me yet. XP only due to bad RAM. Otherwise ran perfect.

Ever try explaining how bios work to someone that has never really used a computer before? Then tell them that they have to learn that in order to put in a second hard drive....oh yeah, and hope that they still have there Windows registration code handy when the OS detects a new piece of hardware...

Right there is where I give up...why deal with all that crap when on my mac I can just plug it in and it recognizes it and works...

Dont get me wrong, I own a PC that I built and also a PC server with WHS on it...they are useful tools and I use them for what I need, however they are a pain in the ass to maintain so to speak...

For the average non computer geek, I can see why Apples advertising campaign really works...

[Village_Idiot]

Ever try explaining how bios work to someone that has never really used a computer before? Then tell them that they have to learn that in order to put in a second hard drive....oh yeah, and hope that they still have there Windows registration code handy when the OS detects a new piece of hardware...

Right there is where I give up...why deal with all that crap when on my mac I can just plug it in and it recognizes it and works...

Dont get me wrong, I own a PC that I built and also a PC server with WHS on it...they are useful tools and I use them for what I need, however they are a pain in the ass to maintain so to speak...

For the average non computer geek, I can see why Apples advertising campaign really works...

When did you ever need the Windows registration code for installing new hardware. You must have the UU (unexperience user version).

Speaking of which, I still can't get my Mac to see my Linux server.

[OdiN1701]

Ever try explaining how bios work to someone that has never really used a computer before? Then tell them that they have to learn that in order to put in a second hard drive....oh yeah, and hope that they still have there Windows registration code handy when the OS detects a new piece of hardware...

Right there is where I give up...why deal with all that crap when on my mac I can just plug it in and it recognizes it and works...

Dont get me wrong, I own a PC that I built and also a PC server with WHS on it...they are useful tools and I use them for what I need, however they are a pain in the ass to maintain so to speak...

For the average non computer geek, I can see why Apples advertising campaign really works...

Once a BIOS is configured (and no, the user doesn't have to - it arrives configured in a boxed system), there is no need to ever go into it as a typical user. You can add a hard drive or CD/DVD drive, etc. and there is no need to go into it. The only time necessary would be if you are using a RAID setup - which would be for more advanced users anyway - it's not something you can just plug in. There are very, very few instances in which a typical user would even need to go into a BIOS screen. They are there for more advanced users and it gives those users access to configuration options not available to the common user. I've never seen this on a Mac - why not? I can take a 2.4GHz quad-core CPU, put a good heatsink on it and turn it into a 3GHz quad-core CPU by overclocking. That is just one benefit to a more advanced user - and even to less advanced users they are making things like that easily configurable.

Windows does not need reactivation at every little hardware change. In fact, it takes quite a bit for that to happen. Usually the replacement of a motherboard. I've even replaced motherboards with other similar motherboards, upgraded the HD (transferred using imaging software), updated memory and graphics cards and still no reactivation request.

That's another great thing about PC's. I can actually do meaningful upgrades to the system using industry-standard parts. You can't claim that with a Mac - new stuff comes out and you gotta chuck the whole thing. And many Mac's, especially the iMac's are very hard to work on compared to a typical PC. I once had to replace a CD drive in a Mac laptop. I had to completely disassemble the entire notebook - even remove the motherboard - to get it out. PC laptop? Push a lever, undo a screw, pull it out, put a new unit in. For the most part at least. Yes there are some models which aren't that easy. Typically the more slim/light/ultraportable. So when it comes time for a new PC upgrade - I can keep my hard drives, or whatever I'm not upgrading - add in some new stuff and have a much more up to date system without spending a lot. Try to do that with a Mac and just buy a new motherboard/CPU and put it in. Good luck.

On my PC I just plug it in, and it works. For the majority of items. Sure you may need a simple setup program or driver install for some things - but that's hardly an issue - you would need them for the Mac too.

I don't have to "maintain" my PC. It works just fine. You should learn about something a bit more before you start criticizing it.

The majority of problems that exist with PC's are user error - someone doing something they shouldn't - music/file sharing that ends up with them having adware or a virus - installing third-party programs which cause problems, etc. I know because I used to manage a PC shop - did that for almost 5 years. I've seen lots of issues with both PC's and Macs. The hardware issues happen with Macs just as with PC's, because hardware can and does fail.

You may say well..."Hey I don't get viruses on my Mac!" Well I don't get viruses on my PC and I haven't even had an antivirus program installed for years. It's all about practicing a little common sense. Yes there are more adware/viruses for PC's - but their purpose is to propogate to the largest amount of systems possible - with the popularity of Windows, it is obvious why it as a platform is targeted. I have seen Macs exploited time and again, a fix put out which is immediately exploited. It will probably always be the case with both systems as nothing is completely hack-proof.

[cory1848]

When did you ever need the Windows registration code for installing new hardware. You must have the UU (unexperience user version).

Speaking of which, I still can't get my Mac to see my Linux server.

When I cloned my drive to a new larger drive, then set it to master, I needed to reenter that information. It was a pain in the ass as it saw it as a fresh install... Has nothing to do with being experienced or unexperienced...still had to enter the code in...and yes its a legal version.

[cory1848]

Once a BIOS is configured (and no, the user doesn't have to - it arrives configured in a boxed system), there is no need to ever go into it as a typical user. You can add a hard drive or CD/DVD drive, etc. and there is no need to go into it. The only time necessary would be if you are using a RAID setup - which would be for more advanced users anyway - it's not something you can just plug in. There are very, very few instances in which a typical user would even need to go into a BIOS screen. They are there for more advanced users and it gives those users access to configuration options not available to the common user. I've never seen this on a Mac - why not? I can take a 2.4GHz quad-core CPU, put a good heatsink on it and turn it into a 3GHz quad-core CPU by overclocking. That is just one benefit to a more advanced user - and even to less advanced users they are making things like that easily configurable.


See my reply to the village idiot

Windows does not need reactivation at every little hardware change. In fact, it takes quite a bit for that to happen. Usually the replacement of a motherboard. I've even replaced motherboards with other similar motherboards, upgraded the HD (transferred using imaging software), updated memory and graphics cards and still no reactivation request.

That's another great thing about PC's. I can actually do meaningful upgrades to the system using industry-standard parts. You can't claim that with a Mac - new stuff comes out and you gotta chuck the whole thing. And many Mac's, especially the iMac's are very hard to work on compared to a typical PC. I once had to replace a CD drive in a Mac laptop. I had to completely disassemble the entire notebook - even remove the motherboard - to get it out. PC laptop? Push a lever, undo a screw, pull it out, put a new unit in. For the most part at least. Yes there are some models which aren't that easy. Typically the more slim/light/ultraportable. So when it comes time for a new PC upgrade - I can keep my hard drives, or whatever I'm not upgrading - add in some new stuff and have a much more up to date system without spending a lot. Try to do that with a Mac and just buy a new motherboard/CPU and put it in. Good luck.
See my post about Apple keeping hardware inline with the OS. They keep it that way for a reason - THe reason being so you dont have to be a PC tech to keep it running in tip top shape.

On my PC I just plug it in, and it works. For the majority of items. Sure you may need a simple setup program or driver install for some things - but that's hardly an issue - you would need them for the Mac too.
The only driver I have ever had to download for my mac was for my USB webcam. I have scanners, portable drives - both firewire and USB, USB cards and video cards and never needed a driver for those...Maybe I got lucky...


I don't have to "maintain" my PC. It works just fine. You should learn about something a bit more before you start criticizing it.I have learned plenty about PCs. I was forced to for work related issues. I can build them, set up networks, etc... What have I learned? I have learned that I have enough stress in my life that dealing with all the crap that comes with my job, I shouldnt have to worry about my work machine... Thats where my Mac comes in..


The majority of problems that exist with PC's are user error - someone doing something they shouldn't - music/file sharing that ends up with them having adware or a virus - installing third-party programs which cause problems, etc. I know because I used to manage a PC shop - did that for almost 5 years. I've seen lots of issues with both PC's and Macs. The hardware issues happen with Macs just as with PC's, because hardware can and does fail.

You may say well..."Hey I don't get viruses on my Mac!" Well I don't get viruses on my PC and I haven't even had an antivirus program installed for years. It's all about practicing a little common sense. Yes there are more adware/viruses for PC's - but their purpose is to propogate to the largest amount of systems possible - with the popularity of Windows, it is obvious why it as a platform is targeted. I have seen Macs exploited time and again, a fix put out which is immediately exploited. It will probably always be the case with both systems as nothing is completely hack-proof.You nailed it right on the head there... 99.9% of the population doesnt know or doesnt want to deal with all those little common sense issues...They are not computer geeks nor do they want to be...
People will file share, people will hack their machines, people will look at porn sites even with the virus pop up warning window flashing...they dont care, but they still want their computer they paid $299 for to work like the day they bought it...

This thread could go on forever but its far removed from the OPs reason for posting it. Maybe it should get back on track with that...

[OdiN1701]

When I cloned my drive to a new larger drive, then set it to master, I needed to reenter that information. It was a pain in the ass as it saw it as a fresh install... Has nothing to do with being experienced or unexperienced...still had to enter the code in...and yes its a legal version.

I've done that procedure with literally hundreds of systems and never had to do a reactivation. There is no way it would see it as a "fresh" install as it wasn't - unless the cloning software ran sysprep on the drive or something similar. What cloning software was it?

[SeanDinner]

I love my Macbook Pro. Although I have the 1st gen with the heat and noise issues, I haven't had any problems with mine.

My manager couldn't understand why I spent so much money on it, especially since her daughter just got one for around $1000 (windows based)..... within a month or so the thing was having problems and barley worked. I've had mine 2 years with no problems. (I will agree that Apple priced are ridiculous).

PCs CAN be good and last a long time, if the user knows how to take care of it. The thing is....90% of the population don't. Macs are for the people that want their computer to just work, with little to zero maintenance.

The learning curve for me took less than a week. Sure, it'll be hard to get used to (especially from working on PCs for how ever many years) but it's like going from riding a bike to driving a car..... of course it'll be *hard* at first, because it's different. But, you get used to it and enjoy it.

After growing up on a PC and switching to Mac 3 years ago....I will remain to be a Mac user from now on.

[cory1848]

I've done that procedure with literally hundreds of systems and never had to do a reactivation. There is no way it would see it as a "fresh" install as it wasn't - unless the cloning software ran sysprep on the drive or something similar. What cloning software was it?

Norton's Ghost...

[OdiN1701]

See my reply to the village idiot

It has nothing to do with BIOS, etc....?


See my post about Apple keeping hardware inline with the OS. They keep it that way for a reason - THe reason being so you dont have to be a PC tech to keep it running in tip top shape.


You don't have to be a PC tech to keep a PC running in tip top shape. While I am very knowledgeable about PC's and can fix any problem with them - I do no maintenace or anything special to my PC. I use it. I browse the net, listen to music, edit photos and video. I do email, etc. I do all of the typical stuff. I do nothing special to keep it in any sort of shape. It works great without having to do anything like that. I don't understand where you are getting the idea that you have to. With a properly built and configured PC, there is no reason to have to do any sort of maintenance or special treatment to a PC any more than a Mac. If there is, you probably have a lower end, cheaper PC that wasn't built very well. Yeah they exist - but that's one trade off for having open standardizations which allow for the other perks such as ease of upgradeability, etc.


The only driver I have ever had to download for my mac was for my USB webcam. I have scanners, portable drives - both firewire and USB, USB cards and video cards and never needed a driver for those...Maybe I got lucky...


A lot of hardware for the Mac is based on a closed system - which is nice in one way (it usually is truly plug and play) but not as nice in the other (less competition for hardware devices - less variety in accessories/upgrades in some areas, etc.). Your video card may work, but without updated drivers you miss out on performance enhancements and the like which manufacturers put out on a relatively regular basis. Sure, I can put nearly any video card in my PC and it will work - there are unified driver sets these days, etc. However - if you put a newer video card in - it will work, but it won't work to its full poetential because the current software which is running the new hardware has no idea how to properly use the new hardware. That is true for PC's and Macs. There would be no reason NOT to update drivers for a video card. It may work - but if the older software doesn't know about a nice new feature of the newer hardware - why was the newer hardware even bought?


I have learned plenty about PCs. I was forced to for work related issues. I can build them, set up networks, etc... What have I learned? I have learned that I have enough stress in my life that dealing with all the crap that comes with my job, I shouldnt have to worry about my work machine... Thats where my Mac comes in..

I don't have to worry about my PC at all. I did build it myself so I was sure to use quality components by companies that have good warranties. Most if not all parts have at least 3 year warranties. If there is hardware failure, I'm covered. But it runs great.


You nailed it right on the head there... 99.9% of the population doesnt know or doesnt want to deal with all those little common sense issues...They are not computer geeks nor do they want to be...
People will file share, people will hack their machines, people will look at porn sites even with the virus pop up warning window flashing...they dont care, but they still want their computer they paid $299 for to work like the day they bought it...

This thread could go on forever but its far removed from the OPs reason for posting it. Maybe it should get back on track with that...

If you get crap loaded on your Mac, it's not going to work just fine. Same goes with a PC. I have no sympathy for those who cannot use a little commmon sense.

And you can't tell me that Macs always "just work". They don't. I was forced to use Mac systems for graphics design classes in college. They couldn't keep up with the input from the Wacom graphics tablets which were hooked up to them. They crashed many times while being used. There was one system in there which nobody used because it was impossible. You could draw a line with a paintbrush using the graphics tablet and then sit back and wait. About a minute later, the line would appear on the screen. So don't try to act like Macs are perfect and nothing ever goes wrong with them and any average joe can use them without regard for common sense computing practices and they will still work the same as when they were purchased. It's simply not true.

[OdiN1701]

Norton's Ghost...

That is what I used, really hundreds of times. Never had that issue.

[OdiN1701]

I love my Macbook Pro. Although I have the 1st gen with the heat and noise issues, I haven't had any problems with mine.

My manager couldn't understand why I spent so much money on it, especially since her daughter just got one for around $1000 (windows based)..... within a month or so the thing was having problems and barley worked. I've had mine 2 years with no problems. (I will agree that Apple priced are ridiculous).

PCs CAN be good and last a long time, if the user knows how to take care of it. The thing is....90% of the population don't. Macs are for the people that want their computer to just work, with little to zero maintenance.

The learning curve for me took less than a week. Sure, it'll be hard to get used to (especially from working on PCs for how ever many years) but it's like going from riding a bike to driving a car..... of course it'll be *hard* at first, because it's different. But, you get used to it and enjoy it.

After growing up on a PC and switching to Mac 3 years ago....I will remain to be a Mac user from now on.

I perform zero maintenace on my PC and it does "just work". Also I have used macs which "just don't work". Whole classroom of them with issues, crashing problems, etc. All while the professor went on and on about how superior they were than PC's for graphics design. I did most of my work on my laptop as it was faster.

[OdiN1701]

I guess this is my issue.

First - I don't care what anyone uses. Mac's and PC's both work just as good (IMO) and I'd say use what you're comfortable with. If you don't mind paying more for the Mac, cool. But I'd rather pay the same and get better performance, or pay less.

Here's the thing. So many Mac people are zealots about their stuff. I don't get it. Apple is the same way with their stupid "Hi I'm a Mac/Hi I'm a PC" commercials which are wildly inaccurate. I think Microsoft should make similar commercials and poke fun at all the Mac issues - and while they are at it, make up issues that don't exist. They probably would get sued or something over it, yet Apple continues to market in this manner. Perhaps Microsoft just doesn't want to lower themselves to that level, and I don't blame them.

There is too much of a superiority complex as a whole with the Mac community. This has been going on for ages. Ads claiming how much faster in Photoshop Macs are (which - when you find out the fine print it's just finding a combination of filters and such that works fastest for it and using that as a performance benchmark - false advertising IMO). I see lots of Mac users spewing all sorts of crap about PC's and acting like the Mac is Superiority Incarnate in every way.

Some things, Macs are faster at. Other things, PC's are. It's a wash. Especially today now that Macs run on the same Intel CPU's that PC's do. But to see the kind of ignorance I see displayed whenever Mac users talk about how horrible PC's are, etc. is just ridiculous and that is what I tire of. I see very little, if any, PC owners posting up about how horrible Macs are and how so much better a PC is. Neither is "better" - they each have ups and downs and it's up to each person to choose what they want out of a system.

Saying that PC's crash and Mac's "just work" is ridiculous. I've used both. Both crash. I don't have enough data to say that one crashes more frequently than the other, but in my experience with my PC systems - there are very very few crashes or issues. Mac users make it seem like running a PC is a chore and a lot of work and PC's need tons of maintenance vs. a Mac being pure bliss in tactile form. Utter lunacy.

I don't understand why Mac users can't just use their Macs and be happy. They have to bash PC's and get all superior about things and act like they are the path to true computer enlightenment and turn some computer into some sort of spiritual cult. It's very odd to me.

You know why I don't use a Mac? Besides the price and closed-system nature of the product - I hate the operating system. I've never liked it. That isn't to say it's bad or nobody can possibly like it. It just doesn't jive with me. Windows/DOS always has. And I like the open nature of PC's, the cheaper prices and the availability of lots of different brands of accessories which causes competition, thus the lower prices. That's really all there is to it. I can use Photoshop on either one. I'd just rather use a PC.

If you guys want to use a Mac, cool. But don't sit there and tell me that I have to do maintenance on my PC and it's hard to use and doesn't work like it should, or whatever. Because it's simply not true. You don't see me telling people that Macs are horrible and inferior to PC's, etc. Why do you guys feel the need to do that?

[taylorwilsdon]

I don't want to fight my way through this thread, but I'll just say this.

I've bought or built a whole slew of PCs in my day, both desktops and laptops; I've still got plenty but let me tell you - I don't like any of them like I love the Macbook Pro.

Sounds like an ad, but seriously - there just isn't another laptop as good looking, with the right feature set out there for 2500.

I have no affinity to OSX, I still use Windows plenty even on the macs, but they're such nice computers! Apple's support is trash compared to pre-lenovo thinkpad or even dell business, but neither of those companies make a design piece with real horsepower (the m1330 came close, but its a piece of garbage that broke constantly).

[hitmanh]

Go back and read the thread...and you will find where I stated how they are different... IF the hardware was not any different, why cant you install Windows on a Mac as the main OS? Its the same reason why you cant go get your regular Asus board and through it in a mac...Sure you could hack it, but then your asking for a machine that has the potential to fail...

Because the mainboard uses EFI rather than the older standard bios found in PCs, nothing more. Vista/XP and older versions of windows do not support EFI.
I'll repeat again, there is NOTHING special in the hardware.
The EFI can be hacked around, every single component can be swapped between the 2 systems.

[hitmanh]

I think that was my point; MBP memory is bog standard; Not so the MacPro memory, which is what we're talking about.

Not really no, the MacPro use ECC ram, whcih has been a standard component in workstation and server class machines for a good while. It's a standard off the shelf component. I use them in a workstation I built at home and you can buy the stuff anywhere that sells pc components.

As I have stated earlier... Mac hardware isn't special. They do not have anything you cannot buy yourself and fit to your own PC.

[cory1848]

Because the mainboard uses EFI rather than the older standard bios found in PCs, nothing more. Vista/XP and older versions of windows do not support EFI.
I'll repeat again, there is NOTHING special in the hardware.
The EFI can be hacked around, every single component can be swapped between the 2 systems.

Sure it can be hacked, but then again you are losing the reliability/dependability that the hardware AND software provide. Wouldnt EFI be special since Windows doesnt support it? You are contradicting yourself...

[sfaust]

Ok folks lets break it down.

After rebates, Monitors were 150 each, 300 USD.
Monitors are 22 inch Sceptre X22WG's.
http://www.sce2ptre.com/Products/LCD/Specifications/spec_x22wg_1080p.htm
With the rebates it was basically buy one get one free. Couldn't pass it up.

Case, Had a case here that I used, so that was of no expense.

Mobo, MSI K9A2 Platimun,
Combined with AMD Phenom 9500 2.2 GHz Quad core.
Cost of 308.99.
(Rebate of 65 USD brings the price to 243.99).

Memory, 4 gigs of G.Skill, DDR2 800, regular price of 129, instant rebate of 40, price, 89.99. Then Manufactuers rebate of 40. Total price 49.99 x2 = 99.98.

Video Cards, 2 Powercooler AX3650's. 89.99 with a 25 mail in Rebate. Total price 64.99 x2 = 128.98.

So, add it up.

300 + 243.99 + 99.98 + 128.98 = 772.95.



Good so far, but what about the rest? You were comparing your $800 system to a full MacPro system, and challenging anyone to find a MacPro at close to that $800 price. But what you have is no where near a complete system, or even close to a working PC for that $800. I would call that comparison a half eaten apple to a watermelon.

I applaud you for building your own PC. Its not trivial, not rocket science either, yet a nice feat when you get it done and it works. I've built a few myself in the past, and its a satisfying experience. Even better knowing you know that machine well enough to service it in the future when needed.

But your $800 machine falls so far short of a MacPro, or even a 10 year old mac for that matter. I can see why you were called on it. What you are comparing at $800 is a handful of components, and not even enough to finish a working PC at that. All unassembled, untested, no software,non-functionable, and far from plug and play.

There is no power supply included in your price, so it would never function at $800. Also no hard disk, so no way to boot it, store the OS or users data. More money for a keyboard and mouse. More money for a CD-ROM, We can't have all the components lying on my desktop, so a case (nice one at that) would be needed to house everything. Upgrade the video cards, memory, etc. and all the components should be complete for a fair comparison, but at a far greater cost that $800.

And if you are really going to compare them head to head in a fair manner, you would need to hire someone else to assemble it, test it, and install the software for it. That's the way the MacPro comes, so you need to add that value too. It won't be a small bill either. Then pay someone to package it for sale. You would also need to contract with someone to support it, so that just like Apple, the owner can usually find a store within a short drive where they can drop it off to have it serviced. Thats all included in the MacPro price, but left out of your $800 figure.

Its real easy to make something expensive sound cheaper by leaving stuff off. But is not a fair comparison. I could sell you a brand new BMW for half price, if in your garage you happen to have some BMW rims and tires, water pump, rear seats, passenger air bag module, starter, gear shift lever, and transaxle, and don't mind putting it all together yourself. But usually, those cars are stolen recoveries, and in need of hands on help. Not like the service you get when you purchase one from the dealer, are given the key, turn, and go ;)

I'm sure I could show you how I could get a $800 MacPro system, if I were willing to find one without a case, power supply, hard disk, audio card, lower spec processors, lower end memory, lower end video, no keyboard, no mouse, no power cord, no box, no software, no manual, no service, no support, and so on.

Then it would be a fair comparison, yes?

[flyingwolf]

As stated I had a case, case had a 500 watt PS, more than enough to run the system, add another 105 for the 500 gig SATA II hard drive I had here to go into it (purchased before I purchased the main system).

And yes it was all plug and play, and yes I have done the testing.

So add to my 800 another 105 for the Hard drive, (and I hate to tell you the Mac cases are crap and about as close to underpowered as you can get), a case with power supply for another 100, and the software, Windows Vista Ultimate for 150, now your looking at 1155 toss in a keyboard mouse combo for 30 bucks as that mac KB and mouse are certainly nothing special, and your looking at 1185.
The 30 minutes it takes to put together is 15 bucks (assuming 30 per hour). and you have 1200 dollars.

Is having someone else install the OS and a bunch of crapware really worth your 1300 extra dollars you pay for that Mac?

As for the quip it falls short of a 10 year old mac, last I checked 10 years ago they weren't running Quad core systems.

And your right, mine is no where near a mac, mine can actually do more than a bit of graphics work with a fancy bouncing dock and write emails.

Show me a mac that can run Crysis full screen on full settings DX10 style.

Mac has its place, but when it comes to performance for the price, Mac simply cannot compete at its current price structure.

And on the flip side PC's simply cannot compare to some (not all) of the graphics and audio editing capabilities of the mac.
Though I have never had a problem myself using my PC's for my radio station.

[sfaust]

You are missing the whole point. You said you built a