Rant: High Prices for Bad Quality Photography

[form]

To all respondents: You're absolutely right, I have no right to do such verbal abuse and I am removing it now. I was in a very trite and annoyed state of mind when I came across their website, and it made it worse. I'm modifying my presented argument as follows:

People on this forum seem to think that $75/hour is fair value for my work quality:
My work: http://www.vegashendersonphotography.com/portfolio.htm

There are other competing photographers out here who charge as much as $200/hour for the same services that I provide, but who actually put out what I consider to be inferior products, be it because the white balance is off, the pictures are plain or camera shake is present, or they look like snapshots.

Does this mean I should increase my rates to be more competitive with these individuals, or should I keep them where they are? There are also other local photographers who charge the same or less than me, though very few, if any, put out the same level of work that I do. Many of them don't even use fill flash in daylight pictures. I think that my work is better than that, and I am virtually starving at the rates I charge ($75/hour). If I raised my rates, I could afford better equipment, which would allow me to probably produce better images. I'd like a good portrait lens, a good telephoto lens, and some other things which would increase the variety of images I can capture, but at my current rates I can't really afford them.

If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
Thank you :)

[TheHoff]

Please advise.

I'd advise you not to post a competitor's website on a public forum with the intent of fostering indefensible criticism.

[thekid24]

I agree with the statement above.

Anyone can buy a camera, anyone can set prices. Some will go for it, others wont.

I believe people get what they pay for. If they are satisfied with that persons results and are willing to pay for it, by all means they should.

I know Im good, I know my prices are more than fair, and at this point Id rather get a steady following than make more money.

Ive turned down a few people that were satisified with my work yet not willing to agree to prices. Gotta know youre value, but at the same time not price yourself out of business.

[sheckells27]

I agree with "TheHoff". I dont think it was a very smart move...

[slava-slavik]

Joey,
In general, your competition can charge as much as they feel confident about, but the question is how much work do they get...

I'd recommend some re-arangement of your portfolio/website. Focus to your strong side of your photography and for now get rid of the rest. Too many things together: a bride cutting cake, press machine, macro shot of a flower, rock band on a concert, etc. There should be a primary focus, I think...

[3Turner]

I don't see anything wrong with your pricing or his. It all boils down to quality of work and the service received from the photographer taking the shots. Although those shots in his gallery are supposed to be his portfolio, what if they are not his best. We can't assume that those shots posted are his best and representative of all of his work. To me, it looks as though the image quality was lost on the upload...the blown out shots are a different story.

Another thing, he is charging $200 for a 1 hour session and all images on CD....lets look at it a different way. Lets say he is charging $75 for the hour and $125 for the processing and other incidentals. You are charging $75 per hour but for event photography. Your portrait photography are different pricing structures all together, but still cheaper than his. I would suggest that if you feel you have a better image quality than his and "At least I know how to avoid camera shake blur, handle white balance, use wide apertures to reduce DOF, etc. etc. " you should use this as a marketing strategy. That combined with the prices you set will get you more repeat business where as his is very limited availability probably due to other obligations.

Another thing I wanted to point out and I don't know if you read the thread, don't get into bad business tactics. Here is a thread that I am referring to http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=503159

If he is not hurting your business, then there is no need to worry. On the flipside, if you feel that you want to charge more, then do so....that decision would be up to you anyhow.

Good luck to you.

[dooks88]

I don't see anything wrong with your pricing or his. It all boils down to quality of work and the service received from the photographer taking the shots. Although those shots in his gallery are supposed to be his portfolio, what if they are not his best. We can't assume that those shots posted are his best and representative of all of his work. To me, it looks as though the image quality was lost on the upload...the blown out shots are a different story.

Another thing, he is charging $200 for a 1 hour session and all images on CD....lets look at it a different way. Lets say he is charging $75 for the hour and $125 for the processing and other incidentals. You are charging $75 per hour but for event photography. Your portrait photography are different pricing structures all together, but still cheaper than his. I would suggest that if you feel you have a better image quality than his and "At least I know how to avoid camera shake blur, handle white balance, use wide apertures to reduce DOF, etc. etc. " you should use this as a marketing strategy. That combined with the prices you set will get you more repeat business where as his is very limited availability probably due to other obligations.

Another thing I wanted to point out and I don't know if you read the thread, don't get into bad business tactics. Here is a thread that I am referring to http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=503159

If he is not hurting your business, then there is no need to worry. On the flipside, if you feel that you want to charge more, then do so....that decision would be up to you anyhow.

Good luck to you.

I think you sum it up pretty good.

[rsmedley]

This is the offending business: http://www.pptphotography.com/

I want to know how he can charge $200 for what he does (1 hour session, all images on CD), when people on this forum seem to think that $75/hour is the value of my work. He has maybe one or two genuinely good pictures, a lot of okay ones, and some quite plainly BAD ones. Why should he get paid $200 for doing a worse job than I do at $75?

My work: http://www.vegashendersonphotography.com/portfolio.htm

At least I know how to avoid camera shake blur, handle white balance, use wide apertures to reduce DOF, etc. etc.

Please advise. Should I increase my prices? That business is actually competing with me.

Well, hey, if you think you're that much better than this guy then just increase your prices to $300 for a 1 hour session. Why are you whining about this on this forum?

[cdifoto]

Hmm. Badmouthing the competition? That's mature. Maybe that [lack of] maturity translates to your would-be clients.

[TheHoff]

You can buy a lot of professionalism for $200 an hour in Nevada.

[form]

I could separate styles...family and business portraits, event shoots/coverage, others...

[swampler]

Who pays $100 or $200 per hour for photos? Is this aimed at models? We've got one of the local places calling offering a free 8x10 to come in and have a shoot. Never a sitting fee (that I know of) and you just pay for prints.

[airfrogusmc]

I could separate styles...family and business portraits, event shoots/coverage, others...

$75 an hour is what I charge for my photoshop time. The problem with charging to little is no matter how good you are people don't take you serious and you get stuck in a price range and its VERY hard to move out of it.

Man you probably shouldn't have posted links of your competition you are bad rapping either. You should be very careful about those kind of things. It could come back to bite.

[Stocky]

I see a lot of your posts asking for some reassurance that you are doing the right thing.
I think that if the local market supports higher prices then you should go for it.
I will say that I personally judge business, especially artistic ones, heavily based on their websites, and a little work on yours could go a long way. Your pricing page is nasty under my copy of firefox, and it gave me a headache trying to read your front page with the pictures rotating through behind the text.
I think you are very close to having a good business, you just need to take a little time to figure out where take it.

[jonstewart]

I could separate styles...family and business portraits, event shoots/coverage, others...

Separate, focused websites on each of these would be more effective, and allow you to reposition your service and fee structures independently of each other.

Then you can focus on what is more profitable, and up the prices on the stuff that isn't.

I know it might sound a little trite, but the adage is true; the photography business is 80% business and 20% photography. Think business, not photography, and improve you marketing strategy. Fix that website, it's really letting you down.

'Click the buttons to the left you dummy; can't you see they're there! Dummy!' :-)

Your website should be intuitive. You shouldn't have to write stuff like that

Hope this helps.

[Dennis_Hammer]

Focusing on others is no way to move forward it usually gets you left behind. If you want to expand your business contact Las Vegas' chamber of commerce who's sole purpose is to help people be successful in business in their area. Be proactive (for yourself) not reactive (to others).

[Visual Bride]

competing photographers out here who charge as much as $200/hour for the same services that I provide, but who actually put out what I consider to be inferior products, be it because the white balance is off, the pictures are plain or camera shake is present, or they look like snapshots.

Many of them don't even use fill flash in daylight pictures.

I missed out on the link to your competition so I can't compare.
Ok this is going to hurt:!:

Your photography maybe good and professional, but IMO your website doesn't reflect that. I know I am being brutal, but hopefully brutally honest.

Your site isn't current and the pictures on it don't appear to be either. An enthusiastic amateur could easily out market you.

If you are as good as you say, you're doing a damn bad job of showing it. The upside is, that with a little work and some focus on presentation and the business, you should be able to flip the tables.

My recommendations:
1. Put your site up for critique on this forum or sit with an honest friend and work through it.

2. Update your site with fresh work if you haven't. If it's fresh work, get rid of all the mediocre pictures and leave potential clients to with only solid offerings. You have some really good work. Reprocess 'older' work to make it fresh and up to date.
Ps. Look at weddings. The first 10 pictures are basically all the same. All dancing or hugging. But 18 is absolutely stunning! If I was a bride, I would be bored at 5.

3. Re-work your navigation. It took me a few seconds to workout how it worked and I am web savy. We can all get to close to our sites, forgetting 'we' know how to use them.

If your rant is to serve any purpose and you are to benefit, humbly take on board the good advice from those who have already posted.

I would only feel depressed if I was doing all I could and my business wasn't keeping up. I would feel excited, if I am doing ok and I know there is loads that can be done to improve. :)

I hope this wasn't to straight. :( I'll probably get flamed for this.

[form]

I'm all ears, but I don't understand "current" as far as a site goes. Out market in what way and how?

With the exception of the black and white photos, most of my photos are either unprocessed or very lightly processed. There might be half a dozen color pictures with some genuine effort applied to enhancement. Are you saying I should enhance them all?

I took your advice about the wedding pictures and removed the ones I thought were the least interesting as well as what I thought you meant by #5. I don't know which one is #18 and stunning, but thanks.

More navigational issues? I have to rethink it again I suppose.

Your comments have been by far the most helpful thus far. But I don't understand what you mean by my site not being "current." Do you mean it doesn't use flash that delays by animating everything? My computer is too old to make any of that look good; it just takes longer for me to load any website that uses flash for portfolio navigation, and, in fact, I rarely can view the average photographer's flash website for any length of time before getting tired of waiting. But then, I always preferred the snappiness of Mac OS 9 over the pretty, but SLOW, Mac OS X...until X.4 came along.

[Visual Bride]

Hi Form,
By out market, I just mean they could use marketing to appear like a more experienced, professional company even though in reality they aren't.

Much of processes is fine. But I found a few in the portrait area that just seemed flat and boring, that could be rescued with a little some PP.

18 was the picture with the the couple in front of the sign Vegas sign. I'd love that on my portfolio!

I am all for not using to much flash. I agree keeping it simple is often best. I would loose the background picture on your site. It confuses and clashes with the photography on your site. Quick simple sites are a good idea. I have worked with the same principle on mine.

I to have different channels. When you get to the homepage, you choose which area you're interested in. So the pricing and portfolio is relevant to whatever channel is chosen.

I also see from your profile that you are into web design...so I can go a little more technical. I would avoid frames like the plague as google can't read the effectively.

The homepage is very boring, it will be even more boring when you take the advice to loose the overall background image. So that will need a rethink. If your are going to use a big body of text, could you add some thumbnails. Link those thumbnails to your photo gallery.

The slideshow is good. Are muslin background shots in fashion up your way? They look kind of old fashioned against some of your other work in that slideshow. Cull that as well. Only keep the excellent work. You have a picture of a yellow flower in there, why? Will someone pay you to take that kind of shot?
You have a lady with a little kid with boxing gloves...was that a special event or charity? If it was, mention it on the picture.

Hope this helps. I am doing the same thing to my site today. I only updated it on friday. Got 3 bookings since and a fourth on the way, but it could still be more powerful. It's been quiet for a couple of days, so I want to make it more persuasive.

[Zansho]

Why do you care what other photographers do? Do YOUR best work, and it'll speak for itself. Once you become more in demand, you can charge accordingly.

[form]

I never liked frames and have almost never used them. I use CSS for positioning and other things, and a table for the base layout.

The site looked simpler when I had plain black (and once I had grey), but it lacked a sense of being "finished and complete." I'm thinking.

Thumbnails on the front page. I initially had the slideshow autoplay on the front page but people complained of visibility conflicts with the page, so I believe that I am going to have to separate photos from text and consider some downward scrolling to be a necessity. I do need to add some pictures to the front page somewhere. I have to try to use the "a place for everything and everything in its place" planning method next time I redo my website.

Muslin backgrounds are used in some instances and not in others. I know for a fact that they still get used for standard, traditional portraiture, which is one of the styles I am most comfortable with. It's not edgy work, but edgy doesn't fit my personality well and I find that I struggle when I try to do that kind of photography, though I keep trying to understand it.

I'm not nearly as experienced as you are, but I do claim that my photos are better than snapshots most of the time, and I do know how to adjust white balance and exposure, which some of the local photographers don't do.

I understand what you mean about marketing now.

I care if someone who puts out snapshot-quality work and gets $200/hour for it actually gets the work, especially if it's work I would get otherwise, for less money while providing a better product. I'm not top quality, but I do a better job than they do, and it irks me to think that they would be able to get any work for that price.


My website has been a bone of contention for me for a long time: I don't get many viewers, so I have been trying to figure out how to make the most of out the ones I get by improving my website. It's due for another rehaul anyway (usually I do that once every few months), and I started last night.

[tcphoto1]

Perhaps you should concentrate on what you are doing and not those around you. If you develop a better understanding of light, exposure, postproduction and most of all the interaction between yourself and your subjects then Clients will find you. Worrying about everyone else is counterproductive and will only drive you crazy. Unfortunately, it's not always the best photographer that gets the job, often times it's the best salesman.

[form]

I spend about 0.5% of my time thinking about other photographers; the rest of the time I'm busy working or doing other things. The initial post was the result of that 0.5% of the time when I saw someone's ad and was in an ill mood to begin with, which spark ignited a flame that quickly died and turned into a very useful post for me, and has helped me try to rethink my website.

Light and composition have been my primary foci for improvement for some time now.

[tiziano]

I was able to navigate in the web site of the 200$ guy, but I was not able to navigate in yours.

- Your web site takes only half of my screen
- The icons are invisble, and show only a small part of the image
- The images are too small.
- The image on the home page is muddy.
- I was not able to find your price list.

Statistics show that the average person will simply go to another site if he doesn't find what he is looking for within the first few seconds.

If I wanted to hire a photographer, I would be looking for two things: his images, and his prices. Right or wrong, I found both easily in the other guy site, and not on yours.

[form]

And I'm changing my website. But I don't see how the price list couldn't be found because it's on the left side under home and portfolio.

I made my website size conform to a 800x600 resolution screen for maximum compatibility. I can stretch some things, but not everything. If it takes up half of your screen you must be using a graphic designer/photographer's resolution or a widescreen display (or both) because most people use between 1024 and 1280 on the wide end, since the optimum resolution for most LCD displays is within that range.

The next revision won't have any background pictures like the muddy one on the home page.

The images are 642x428, any larger and file size becomes a serious problem unless I increase compression.

[tiziano]

And I'm changing my website. But I don't see how the price list couldn't be found because it's on the left side under home and portfolio.

I made my website size conform to a 800x600 resolution screen for maximum compatibility. I can stretch some things, but not everything. If it takes up half of your screen you must be using a graphic designer/photographer's resolution or a widescreen display (or both) because most people use between 1024 and 1280 on the wide end, since the optimum resolution for most LCD displays is within that range.

The next revision won't have any background pictures like the muddy one on the home page.

The images are 642x428, any larger and file size becomes a serious problem unless I increase compression.

I spent just a few seconds clicking around trying to make the pricelist show, and it didn't show. I don't know about my definition setting, but I am using a laptop and all other web sites take the entire screen.

PS here I am playing the role of the average potential customer! :)

[Zansho]

My suggestion would be to when you finish your website editing, have some friends look it over. Have them look at it via different browsers, like Firefox, Opera, IE, Netscape, Safari, things like that. Also, asking them to look it it under different resolutions will help too.

[form]

or the average smart aleck!

I'm working on it already, but this time I'm trying to really plan out a template.

[jonstewart]

I'm working on it already, but this time I'm trying to really plan out a template.

Learn css a bit better, and then implement an elastic or liquid layout, which means the size can fill whatever resolution (and you should size it to 1024x768, not 800x600). The photos will stay the same, but the spaces around them will expand neatly, improving the look of the site, overall.

Do you know php at all? PHP, creating your html on the server is a better (more flexible; since you can change your template very easily and robustly) solution than just html, and you can also implement dynamic data if you know any mysql.


Jon

PS forget the bleed objects behind the text; that's 80's tacky (in my opinion) unless it's done just right!

[tiziano]

or the average smart aleck!


Ok.
I guess then this is what you were looking for, with your rant:

-Your pictures are way better then the pictures of the other guy, who can't distiguish a camera from a toaster.
-If he charges 200$, you have to charge at least 400$.
-Your web site is just great. It's actually so good, that it cannot be improved. Keep it just like that.
-If the other guy makes enough money and keeps his business running, while you cannot, it's not your fault, nor his credit. It is just your bad luck that has been following you for your entire life, and there is nothing to do about it. Karma.


You sure that this helps more then my previous post?

Good luck.

Tiziano

[form]

I know extremely basic php, but I could learn more. I know how to adjust the size of certain objects by browser width in css, but I remember having issues getting things to look good and keeping proportions correct.

tiziano: No, actually the other poster visual bride provided lots of useful information without seeming like a smart aleck. I wasn't looking for blind praise.

[form]

Redid my website: Please have a look! Feedback? Opinions?

Thoughts and suggestions were addressed. I just need to redo ALL of the portfolio pictures to have white backgrounds.

[jonstewart]

That's so much better. Much cleaner. Navigation stands out better. Photos look better, because there's less clutter. The portrait portfolio (I didn't look at the others) looks good, but actual image transition is more like a blink than gradual fade. (this could be a browser thing)

It's a bit counter-intuitive having the secondary menu above the primary, but it works in a slightly unconventional way.

One minor thing; when I resize downward with Vista/FF20014, there's a point where the text (on the price etc, jumps out of the frame / container. Probably minor to fix.

Much, much, much better. Well done. and good on you for listening to what others said, and implementing what you thought would be useful.
Jon

[form]

Thanks. Unfortunately I can't test it on vista myself because I don't have any computers that run it. I'm not sure how I'd go about making that compatible, but I already don't like vista.

[Stocky]

The site acts a little funny with firefox on my mac as well. When you resize at a certain point the text gets pushed out of the box and jumps to the side.

I like the design much better, and I think you are almost there with your website now.

[jonstewart]

Yes, firefox on my mac does the same, but latest Safari / Mac, that bit works fine. It's probably a firefox issue, rather than Vista. Don't have ie handy here, or I'd run it in that for you as well!
Jon

[form]

Yes I'm running into that consistently. I tried to fix it by using margins and other positioning controls, but when it worked for my mac it didn't work at all on Win XP. I have to think about it for a while.

[jonstewart]

Actually, that's now working Firefox /OSX. I wonder did some of us not have the refreshed css file?

(Otherwise, you must have fixed it :-) )

EDIT: also working in Vista/IE7.006
Jon

[form]

Everything is now contained in a single tag that is involved in centering; the different elements are no longer moving independently of each other.

[Alexajlex]

Very nice site.

I'd say raise the price to $200 per hour.

The only suggestion I have is to integrate the pricing into 1 step.
I really find it a bit cumbersome to have to click on the Price button then to click on the event type (weddings, Portraits).
At first I was thinking the link was broken cause nothing came up (then I figured out I had to click on the event type).

[photoguy6405]

I like the new website much better, also. Clear, easy to read, professional-looking, IMHO. My only quibble would be to remove the "Please bear with us..." comments. Even if some things aren't quite finished yet, they will be soon enough and there's no need to advertise the fact. Most people probably wouldn't even notice if you don't point it out to them.

[form]

Yay I'm finally getting somewhere. Now if only the damned thing got me any more business I'd be rewarded for my efforts in a better way (money!).

[Visual Bride]

Well done. Much much better.
This is a massive improvement. Your rant had a good outcome. Just remember that it will only effect your bottom line if people see the website.

The next question is how are people finding your site? Are they finding your site? How are those competitors found?
Sign up to Google Analytics for free and see what people are doing on your site and where they come from.

[form]

Thanks, I set up google analytics. I want to know how to improve my SEO so I can get to the forefront of some of the search engines with common search keywords. I have worked at it and reworked it, and I have made a different/alternate version of description, title, h1 and other tags, for each page, in order to maximize the variety of styles and wordings that can all lead to my site (different pages of it) and which might be picked up differently by search engines.