Shooting in poorly lit areas...

[Zamora3]

First off I'd like to say hi to evryone, now I'll get to my prolem. I have a Canon Digital Rebel with a Cannon EF Unltrasonic 70-300 lens and Cannon EFS 18-55 lene. I have no extra flash or anything extra. I have a really hard time shooting in poorly lit areas. If I use a slow shutter speed the lighting is very good but the picture is really blurry (I'm shooting indoor basketball games). On the other hand if I use a fast shutter speed and flash the movement is caught great but the picture is really dark and I get lots of red eye. And if I turn the ISO speed up, the picture comes out brighter but there is alot of noise in the picture. I have no problems getting good action shots in daylight its just the low lit areas that give me a hard time. So if you could give me any advice on extras that I could buy to make the pictures come out better or any help/tips would be greatly appriciated. Thanks.

[tim]

Shooting in the dark's hard. Your choices are:
- Use a tripod and a show shutter speed. Not good for people or things that move.
- Use a tripod and show shutter speed with flash. Works ok.
- Use a big external flash
- Turn the ISO up as far as you need to, and use noise reduction software (eg neat image, but there are heaps). ISO 400's good, 800's ok. Above that you need noise reduction software.
- Get a lens with a large aperture. The 50mm F1.8 lens is about $70, which is great for low light.

There are most likely more options, but they're the main ones I use.

[Zamora3]

#1
http://img76.exs.cx/img76/8063/iso4007xs.jpg
I shot # 1 @
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/60
Av( Aperture Value )
5.6
ISO Speed
400
Flash
On
Color Space
sRGB
Noise reduction
Off

#2
http://img76.exs.cx/img76/3874/iso8001lt.jpg

I shot #2 @
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/60
Av( Aperture Value )
4.0
ISO Speed
800
Flash
Off
Color Space
sRGB
Noise reduction
Off


1st off how do I turn on noise reduction? I like both pics I just wish # 1 was brighter and the red eye is really bad. on #2 i like the brightness I just wish the movement was caught better. I would like to shoot at 1/125. Is there anything else I could do to make the pictures come out brighter and not blurred ar all?

[drisley]

I agree with Tim about the 50F1.8II lens. It's great for low light shooting, but sometimes may be a little short (if you are not allowed on the court).
For a little more length, and a little more money, get the 85F1.8. This lens is affordable, and practically made for this exact purpose. (basketball in a gym).
I would definately shoot at ISO800 or ISO1600, just make sure you don't underexpose. A properly exposed image on the Drebel at ISO800 definately needs no noise reduction (sample (http://www.mts.net/~lftbrain/iso1600crop2.jpg)). Even ISO1600 will look pretty darn good without noise reduction in prints up to 8x10".
Try to shoot in AV mode, with the aperture wide open if you have to, although F2.0-F2.8 is ideal if you can get shutter speeds of about 1/200s or faster.
For example, this was shot (http://www.fotop.net/albums/sharpnsmart/volley11122004/MG_3764.jpg)in a gymnasium at F2, 1/400s, ISO1600 without noise reduction. Granted, it was with a 20D, but the difference in noise between the 20D and Drebel isn't as huge imho as some people think. Just make sure NOT to underexpose at all.

One other thing to note: shoot RAW if you can. That will allow you to correct white balance later. Getting the right white balance in some gymnasiums can be a real task.

[Zamora3]

thanks, also, how do you turn on the noise reduction and how can you prevent red eye?

[drisley]

You don't turn on noise reduction in camera. There is no such feature.
You can buy noise reduction software, or download free nr software on the internet.
Using the settings I mentioned above, you don't use a flash at all, therefore there will be no redeye. I've never used a flash for indoor sports. In fact, most sports won't allow it anyway.

[Zamora3]

where I got those pics I get to sit on the floor underneath the basket and use my flash. Why does it say Noise Reduction: Off when I look at my pics through zoombrowserEx ? I talked to another semi-pro photgrapher and he suggested a Canon 550ex flash, what do you guys think aout that flash?

[tim]

The 550EX is a good mid range flash. The 420EX is cheap and it's what a few of my friends use and they like it (we're all hobbyist photographers). The 580EX is the newest and most expensive, had a few extra features, but it's really expensive.

I got the 550EX myself, I figure it'll be useful if I ever want to control a wireless slave. It's really easy to overexpose with such a big flash.

[Zamora3]

whenever I try to get my aperure to the lowest point it will only go to 3.5 not anything lower. I dont know why mabye you do ?

[drisley]

Noise Reduction can not be turned on or off with the DRebel. It has automatic noise reduction on long exposures (longer than 1 second).
Personally, I would never use a flash for a sporting event. I just don't like how it looks.
I also have never found a situation, no matter how dim the gym, that I've needed a flash.
I would spend the money on the 85F1.8 before getting an external flash for this sort of shooting.
Your images will look better than using a flash and 70-300mm lens. Another added benefit is that the 85F1.8 will focus MUCH faster than a zoom lens because it is a prime. This is definately a much coveted feature for this type of action.

The lowest aperture you can set is a limit of your lens.

[toddb]

I'd pick up that 50mm F1.8. I got it just to see what "speed" was in a lens and I wasn't disapointed. For $75 new it's quite a bargin. I got it to decide if I wanted to wait a very long time until I had enough money to by the 70-200L 2.8 over the F4 version and after seeing how useful it is I think I'll keep saving for that faster lens. Just think, your shooting at F5.6....slow, just imagine if you could go to F1.8!!

[tim]

Lenses have a maximum aperture. If you're talking about the kit lens, it has a max apertuere of F3.5 at it's widest angle, and F5.6 at it's narrowist angle. If you need wider you need to get a different lens. For low light the 50mm F1.8's great value at about $75.

[triangle]

Hi, I was about to purchase an external speed flash soon for this same purpose. I am shooting basketball with the Drebel as well. I am using a Tamron 75-300mm lens, 1600 ISO, AV mode. Most of my pictures are turning out dark and when I use my built-on flash it is giving me too much red-eye. I am allowed to use flash at the middle school, but have been told it is not allowed at the high school. Also, I am not sure about if it is permitted at gyms we will be visiting. Another photographer I know uses the 550/EX with a 10D model and suggested that to me. However, you have caught my attention and I am weighing my options. I am interested in knowing more about the 85F1.8 lens that you are discussing. Is this a Cannon lens? Does it matter?

This is what I found after reading :
Canon Telephoto EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Autofocus Lens
Mfr # 2519A003


I looked for that lens in the Tokina brand but could not find it, can you clarify which you use and the price range. The Canon was listed for right at $320 which is what I was going to pay for the flash. Looking forward to your response.

[tim]

We're talking about the Canon 50mm F1.8 lens: this one (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=12142&is=GREY). It's ok if you're close to what you're shooting, but for sports you might want something a bit longer. Either way it's a very fast lens (ie wide aperture) so you can get fast shutter speeds and hopefully use lower ISO values too.

If someone took a photo of me using a flash while I was playing a sport like basketball i'd most likely run over and kick the **** out of them. Bright lights would interfere with their ability to play the game, and i'd take offense. Use a fast lens and high ISO so as not to bother the players.

[triangle]

Hey that's where I am shopping! I corrected myself, it is the higher end 85 that I am interested in that Drisley said he uses. I have noticed that I am having too much lens when players come close with my 75-300mm. Is the 85mm/ f1.8mm what I need in your opinion? Same cost to me, I want positive results.

Is this the right one below?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=12182&is=USA

And how can I post urls?

[TMR812]

This thread is really hitting close to home..... I'm getting decent shots (good exposer/no flash) using a 20D at high ISO (3200)(18-55 kit lens, and 75-300 III USM), but the noise is too high for my taste.

Sounds like I need to look into lenses that have a lower "f" like F 1.8, etc....

Could some please explain this whole "F" thing to me? It sounds like the lower the number, the bigger the aperature, and the faster the lens. Higher means smaller and slower. What do you mean by faster? Faster at what? Why is a larger aperature better?

I know, sooooo many questions from such a novice.... Perhaps someone could point me to a good reference that explains this.

Thanks a bunch,

TMR

[triangle]

I am discovering this info. out as well novice trying to shoot pro shots, here is a link to a good read on Apeture (F - stops). http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_aperture.html

The really high end Canon (grey/beige) lenses have this low F-stop on telephoto lenses. But I am finding that in a gym my 75-300mm is really to much lens. An affordable lens with that low of an F-stop seems appealling if it will get the results I am looking for (shooting sports in low-light gyms).


P.S.: The photographers I have talked to on the sidelines say they never shoot higher than 1600 because of to much noise.

[tim]

Guys, I recommend doing a short photography course if you can find one near you. I just did an 8 week beginners digital photography course myself, and it was a great introduction to photography. Once you know the basics you can start to experiment and get experience. Basics like aperture are really simple... once someone explains them :)

If you can't find a course, a book would do too.

Until you understand this stuff, I really recommend holding off buying anything, lenses or flashes. With the advice you'd get here you'll probably end up with good stuff, but IMHO it's better to understand it and make an informed choice yourself.

[robertwgross]

Could some please explain this whole "F" thing to me? It sounds like the lower the number, the bigger the aperature, and the faster the lens. Higher means smaller and slower. What do you mean by faster? Faster at what? Why is a larger aperature better?

I know, sooooo many questions from such a novice.... Perhaps someone could point me to a good reference that explains this.


Every basic photography class covers the basics of the camera on Day One. I recommend you find a basic class at your local community college or adult education center.

Lenses have an aperture (opening) where the light comes through it. Lenses with really big apertures let more light through, so they are more sensitive and can be used more in dim light. Big apertures mean low f-numbers. Lenses with small apertures don't let as much light through, but they are still useful in a general purpose way. Small apertures mean high f-numbers. As a general rule (with exceptions) the lower the f-number, the bigger the hunk of glass that it takes to produce it, and the more expensive and heavy the lens is.

The basic exposure is set up by the combination of ISO speed setting (sensitivity at the sensor), shutter speed (fractions of a second that the shutter is open), and lens aperture. If you are lucky enough to have a really big aperture lens (low f-number) then that allows you to shoot at quicker shutter speeds for a given ISO. So, in a way, the big aperture lens allows you to shoot faster, which is why the lens is called a fast lens, even though the lens itself doesn't really do anything about time.

---Bob Gross---

[toddb]

The best way to visualize aperture is think of light has paint (or water). The bigger the hole, the faster the same amount of paint will flow through. Now you probably ask why wouldn't you always shoot wide open....well, when that much paint comes in, most of it would be messy or doesn't have time to render all of the picture I guess. This is where Depth of Field (DOF) comes in. When opening up the hole to let in allot of light, the DOF becomes very shallow. (wait until you take a look at a DOF calculator, interesting stuff)

I agree, the first thing you should do is learn the exposure triangle (Shutter Speed, Aperture, and ISO). Because even if you get the flash, you will probably find your self in manual mode when you start not getting the photos the way you want, I know I did. Auto is ok, but manual gives you allot of control and better photos.

[Zamora3]

so on the Canon 50mm F1.8 it can only stay on 50 mm no farther or closer, Im starting to think aout getting me one of those lens. Thanks for everyone's help. I was about to go out and get me a new flash. Oh and about the flash bothering the players, nah. I talked to them after the game and they said they didn't even notice the flash going off.

[Pekka]

oh, also how do you check the lowest/biggest your aperture can get on the lens. I see some numers on the lens but do not know what the nubmers stand for.

Easy way is to put camera to M or Av mode and change aperture - it does not go lower or higher than the lens allows.

The text on the lens ring:

1:1.8 means f/1.8
1: 2.8 means f/2.8
1: 2.8-3.5 means you get max. 2.8 on wide and max. 3.5 zoomed in.

[Medic1]

thanks, also, how do you turn on the noise reduction and how can you prevent red eye?

Don't take this as gospel, and if I am way off base...please someone more knowlegable feel free to correct me. I am new to advanced photography so I may be wrong.

From what I have read...red eye has a great deal to do with the proximity of the flash to the lens (i.e: on camera flashes (stock flashes) will produce more red eye that a flash connected to the camera with the hot shoe...especially if you aim so the light is ambient to the subject eg: not pointed straight at them).

Am I right in my thinking, or did I misread the information on this subject.

[Medic1]

Every basic photography class covers the basics of the camera on Day One. I recommend you find a basic class at your local community college or adult education center.

If you are an independant learner you could also just invest in a good in depth detailed photography text. This is what I did.....now granted, its a bigger learner curve than having someone show you in person, but I personally find it very rewarding to "self-teach" especially when it comes to something like this.

[triangle]

Medic, care to share the titles of some of those reads that you have found helpful? I tend to agree with you. I had a friend that has attended a few of those classes that taught only what he already knew. I am searching forums, sites, and asking other photographers for expanding my knowledge of photography. I have learned alot in the last few months. I have gone from shooting my son's games over the last several years to selling photos to other parents. I upgraded to a faster and more upgradeable camera (the digital Rebel). No regrets. I just want to add to my bag the necessities that will bring me quality photos. I was about to buy the speed flash (550/EX) until coming across this post.

Drisley, you really caught my attention with your comments and pics. The indoor gym shooting is what I am doing now.
qoute
"For a little more length, and a little more money, get the 85F1.8. "

What lens are you talking about please? Is it the Canon that is http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...ku=12182&is=USA here?
Canon Telephoto EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Autofocus Lens
Mfr # 2519A003

[triangle]

One more question: How much does the shutter speed affect the photo. Let me explain my question: I am shooting in the gym with the Tamron 75-300mm, Drebel, AV mode, 1600 ISO, 4.0 Apeture.

I notice that the shutter speed changes constantly, which it is supposed to whn in AV mode. But what I am wondering, is would I be better off shooting full manual mode and controlling my shutter speed? Or is it better to let the camera decide my shutter speed in these low-light sittuations.

As others have said; I get great results outside in the daylight. I am trying to find out what is my best course of action concerning shooting in the low light areas.

1. Buy a flash?
2. Buy a lens with a low F-stop?
3. Shoot with controled shutter speed?
4. Put my camera back in the bag at night.
5. Take up a new hobby, like skeet shooting. ;-)

[tim]

One more question: How much does the shutter speed affect the photo. Let me explain my question: I am shooting in the gym with the Tamron 75-300mm, Drebel, AV mode, 1600 ISO, 4.0 Apeture.

I notice that the shutter speed changes constantly, which it is supposed to whn in AV mode. But what I am wondering, is would I be better off shooting full manual mode and controlling my shutter speed? Or is it better to let the camera decide my shutter speed in these low-light sittuations.

As others have said; I get great results outside in the daylight. I am trying to find out what is my best course of action concerning shooting in the low light areas.

1. Buy a flash?
2. Buy a lens with a low F-stop?
3. Shoot with controled shutter speed?
4. Put my camera back in the bag at night.
5. Take up a new hobby, like skeet shooting. ;-)

If you don't understand why the shutter speed is constantly changing you definitely shouldn't shoot in manual mode for anything you want deecnt photos of. Play with it in your own time, and watch the histogram, you might learn something.

Low light shooting's hard, especially if it's of moving objects. You need a certain amount of light to be able to take a photo. The first thing to do is get a lens with a wide aperture and try that. If that doesn't work your only other choice is to use an external light source, like a flash. Of course crank your ISO way up before you try flash.

[robertwgross]

From what I have read...red eye has a great deal to do with the proximity of the flash to the lens (i.e: on camera flashes (stock flashes) will produce more red eye that a flash connected to the camera with the hot shoe...especially if you aim so the light is ambient to the subject eg: not pointed straight at them).


I would say that is fairly accurate. It is possible to get red eye with the flash off camera, but it is very unlikely. The other eye problem has to do with winking. Some subjects have a natural tendency to wink quickly or often. When your camera gets ready to do a flash shot, there is a pre-flash, then a small fraction of a second pause, and then the main flash goes. In some cases, the subject's eyes react to the pre-flash, and the eyes are either half-winked or fully closed by the time the main flash goes. I'm not sure what you can do to beat that one.

---Bob Gross---

[drisley]

Canon Telephoto EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Autofocus Lens
Mfr # 2519A003Triangle, yes, that is the lens. There is only one Canon 85mm F1.8 lens.
It's a gem of a lens with optics on par with Canon's best, superbly fast USM auto-focus, full-time manual focus, and it's a bargain at $340.
Many pros who shoot from the court use this lens.

[Olegis]

Another tip for shooting in poorly lit conditions - bump up the ISO and expose to the right. Correctly exposed picture at ISO 1600 will have less visible noise than an underexposed one at ISO 800. Furthermore the noise can be dealt with by using a noise removal software as Noise ninja, Neatimage or such (there are even freeware noise removal solutions.). If you're shooting RAW, which you should do in any difficult lighting conditions due to the flexibility it gives you later on in post-processing, locate the noise-removal option in the RAW converter and turn it on. Some converters are VERY good at removing the noise.

In short - use fast lenses at large apertures, bump up the ISO, expose to the right (but make sure not to overexpose), keep the shutter speeds at 1/250s or above, shoot RAW and use noise-removal software.

[tim]

It's easier to correct underexposed images than overexposed, especially when you're shooting RAW. So if you have a choice of underexposing or overexposing, just expose it correctly ;)

[Olegis]

Correct an underexposed picture and you end up with more visible noise. On the other hand you'll be amazed how much can be recovered from blown of highlights with the Shadow / Highlight tool in PC CS. :-)

[tim]

That's absolutely right.

I've got "Camera RAW with Photoshop CS" on my knee. If you have blown highslights it's sometimes possible to recover highlights so long as you've only blown one (or maybe two) of the three color channels. So long as you've got >0 in the 3 channels you can make something of it.

Of course this is book learning and bourbon talkin, but if I had the choice of under or over exposing, i'd choose under.

[Olegis]

book learning and bourbon talkin


:D :D :D