Should I turn this down?

[ryandavid__]

I got offered the job of 'official photographer' at a small night club local to me. After being advised on here, I asked for around £60/$120 for the night ( I have limited experience, and am only a student ) and I would retain all copyright, but they would have full rights to the images for their online gallery. They didn't reply for a few days, so I chased them up, and they said they wouldn't pay that much more like £30, £40 - this is for like 4/5 hours work, then another 1 or 2 uploading and resizing in the morning - they also said that I would have no chance of keeping the copyright, they wanted full rights.

Should I walk away from this? Or should I just do it as a starting point, and get out of it once I've gained the experience I want/ met more people/ got my name out as a photog.

Ryan.

[SuzyView]

Wow, I knew this was a problem. Most people who hire someone with gear and think it's not a bother, don't pay well. You can compromise. Do the work 1-2 times a week instead of all the time. That's crazy. You'd be working for about $10/hour. That's not really very much.

[ryandavid__]

Exactly, I want to drop it, just to prove a point, over anything -"no, you won't get me for your discount rates, find someone else to wipe your arse".

However, I would gain quite a lot from it..

[Aaagogo]

I would walk away and get zero money then undercut myself and doing work that is not justifiable by the money i receive.

but if you already have a portfolio, it can be a good way to advertise yourself, but just don't shoot that many images during the 4/5hr shift

[DVan8504]

I'd personally walk away, but I have a really hang up about treating people fairly.

[sspellman]

There may be some middle ground here. I would make the counter offer of £40 for 2 hours per night at prime time with joint copyright ownership. There is no good reason to be there all night. I wouldn't do that forever, but it wouldnt hurt to get more established and network.

With this kind of work, there is no good reason to spend 2 hours editing. Use Lightroom or another speedy tool for quick edits and resizing.

-Scott

[tim]

Walk away. They'll find someone who'll do it for free, or near free. What they're offering is an insult. I'd personally go in with a quote of $200/hr, but they'd get someone to do it free instead i'm sure.

[dooks88]

I wouldn't do it for their counter offer. just not worth it.

[sfaust]

The fact that they might possibly get someone else to do it for free shouldn't ever be part of your decision process. If they get someone for free, good for them. If not, they may come back to you with a better offer. Or, if the free guy botches it, it will help show the value you had to offer.

Personally, I would walk. There are plenty of other ways to get the same images under more favorable circumstances to you. You could always approach similar venues and offer your services, and probably get much closer to what you want. I'd try that first before caving to his unreasonable demands.

[supergoat]

Some money is better than no money.

If you are just starting out, the practice and networking you'll gain from the job will be far more valuable than the small amount of money they pay, but at least you WILL get some money as well.

Or you could walk away, not make a dime and give up the experience and practice. You said yourself you have limited experience to be happy with what you can get, it will help you later on.

A ton of people on this site have forgotten what it's like when you are first starting out. Those people are amazing at what they do and offer invaluable advice...but they have been doing it a LONG time so they probably don't remember the crappy first jobs. :)

[Hermes]

Every time you do a paid job you are exposing yourself to risks and costs - the chance of expensive kit being lost or broken, the time & money spent organising and travelling, the hassle of dealing with an unknown client who may not be fair or reasonable in their expectations or their dealings, the potential excess workload if you make a mistake and have to spend time in photoshop correcting it, e.t.c.

If you don't make sure the assignment pays well enough to cover all of these eventualities then you'll find yourself working for a pittance. Personally I wouldn't step out of the door for a £40 job even if it was only 5 minutes' work as the liabilities it would produce just aren't worth it. If you're willing to work for free to gain contacts and build experience then there are plenty of charities out there who are always grateful for help.

[PhotosGuy]

For a student with limited experience, £40 for 2 hours shooting might not be a bad deal, so if they'll buy that, I'd say use it to get the experience & then consider moving on. By then they'll be used to the quality of your work & may ask you to come back at a higher rate. OTOH, you've got some good samples & can probably sell yourself at a better rate elsewhere.

[dave13]

Some money is better than no money.

If you are just starting out, the practice and networking you'll gain from the job will be far more valuable than the small amount of money they pay, but at least you WILL get some money as well.


I agree. If they don't want to allow you to retain rights to the photos..one way around that is if you are the one downloading the images, editing and then submitting them...what I would do ( and I may be alone on this one) is to keep the absolute best ones for myself and give them the next best set.

[bham]

I tend to think that there is a possible win-win for both you and the club. Did they give you an idea of the number of images they want a night. Getting maybe 100 good shots in about 2 hours is doable and then it brings your hourly rate into a more favorable range. All clubs have peak times and I am sure that is what they would like captured. Is this gig for 1 night a week, or 4 nights a week. People and photographers tend give discounts in bulk. (ie individual may want $400 to do a single job that took 6 hours, but would work for $15 an hour if it was for 40 hours a week, every week). And about the rights, give them a full rights use for 2 years, full rights and copyright ownership are 2 different things. If they want to sell them then, the above and split the profits. Also free access to the club at any time for you and up to 2 guests.

If you find out what there use will be, sounds like the website and maybe some advertising, then they wouldn't really have a need to use them for too long, because after some time they would be outdated and they would want new ones. Also if they are pretty uniformed about how copyrights work, you could just turn them over to them, and if no contract is signed, then it would be hard for them to prove that they are the copyright holder and try to sue you later for use of the images. Its unlikely they would register them. Its kind of devious but they sound like they are trying to take advantage of a student.

[IndyJeff]

Walk away. Rates like that aren't worth the shutter wear and tear on your gear. Even your offer was bargin basement pricing and they should have jumped on that like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

I got a phone call while standing in line to place an order at Subway last night. Guy needed a shot of an old time race driver, only a current shot of him today. When he said he was from a paper I almost said not interested but, I heard him out. Met him and the driver at a bar near the speedway, went to the speedway and did the shoot. Time involved, 14 minutes driving, 10 minutes shooting, 10 minutes editting, 20 minutes uploading...price $200 for three images, two of which they will use.
I have turned down those bargin basement pricing jobs and yes, some money is better than no money but, working for less than minimum wage is insulting.

On a side note, he had a friend with him who has been to every Indianapolis 500 since 1946!!!! Geez Louise

[PhotosGuy]

I have turned down those bargin basement pricing jobs and yes, some money is better than no money but, working for less than minimum wage is insulting. I agree with you, Jeff, but as I said, "For a student with limited experience,..."
I remember what it was like when I was a student & wanted money to get better camera equipment, which ran just slightly before getting money for beer? :D

And £40 is about $80 US, so it's really not that bad.

[elysium]

Nightclub work is fast paced and pretty hectic. Its fun but unless the club or enquirer can pay my fees for full rights, I would think about it twice.

£60 for a night is kind of shallow but not a bad start. To be honest, I would walk aawy but if you are looking for the experience, go for it. The company SHOULD be willing to provide a reference or credit when the images are used.

Good luck with your decision but if you want the experience and start into that field, take it as for the experience.

[ryandavid__]

I agree with you, Jeff, but as I said, "For a student with limited experience,..."
I remember what it was like when I was a student & wanted money to get better camera equipment, which ran just slightly before getting money for beer? :D

And £40 is about $80 US, so it's really not that bad.

Haha, 'just' being the important word in that sentence.

Thanks for all the replies, there's a lot of sense being spoken, from both sides of the debate. I think I'll take the job, at least for the time-being, gain some experience in the field, and put together a portfolio of club work, then approach big venues. Lets be honest, getting paid to socialise, drink and take photos really isn't all that bad.

[cory1848]

If your looking for experience and a portfolio, why not just go to any club and shoot on your own? Do they not allow cameras in?

[ryandavid__]

If your looking for experience and a portfolio, why not just go to any club and shoot on your own? Do they not allow cameras in?

That's slightly stalker-ish, though. Anyway, I might as well get paid a little for it, while the offer's there.

[elysium]

If your looking for experience and a portfolio, why not just go to any club and shoot on your own? Do they not allow cameras in?
Lot of places now such as clubs and bars in London do tend to question or refuse people with DSLR's shooting since clubs may hire dedicated photographers and may think you are working for profit and undermine their business.

Point and shoots never seem to be a problem. Have a friends burthday at a bar, I had to call the bar manager first to make sure it was OK if I came as a group photographer for my friend and they went through a whole series of questions about my equipment etc.

[Stocky]

What are your other job options at the moment? If you are in school and have a decent job offer then I would go for it. It might not be a great rate for a professional photographer, but its not bad for a college student.

[breal101]

Experience is a valuable commodity too, sometimes it's not all about the money. There are a lot of advantages to shooting with permission vs. having to look over your shoulder for the bouncers. Just make it clear, in writing if possible, that you intend to use the pictures for self promotion. You wouldn't want any future problems, with the club. Sounds like fun, good luck.

[elysium]

What are your other job options at the moment? If you are in school and have a decent job offer then I would go for it. It might not be a great rate for a professional photographer, but its not bad for a college student.
I just say do it none the less. Money is not great but look at second shooters at weddings. Long hours and not all of them get paid.

I say go for the experience. The more you do, the more creative and unique your work will get and once you have built up a list of clients as references, you can really start picking and chosing prices and clients.

[Village_Idiot]

Tell them 60 pounds and they have to buy the photos as well.

[sfaust]

I agree. If they don't want to allow you to retain rights to the photos..one way around that is if you are the one downloading the images, editing and then submitting them...what I would do ( and I may be alone on this one) is to keep the absolute best ones for myself and give them the next best set.

I would venture a guess you are alone on this, at least I really hope so. Not only is this unethical, will surely piss off the client, but also puts you in a bad position legally. I would not recommend this approach AT ALL!!

Ie, I have a shoot coming up in the next two weeks with a celebrity status client. We negotiated an agreement for exclusive rights for the client with magazine covers and advertising uses exempt, but otherwise basically what the OP's client wants.

How well do you think the client would react if say the PR or AD found out I held back the best images for my own use, and gave them secondary images!! Not well at all. Even if I just saved the out takes, they would be livid, and with every right.

Exclusive means just that. What if your wife said she would be exclusive to you during your marriage, but then secretly saved her best times to spend with an outside lover?

If you negotiate a deal, you follow through. Period! If you don't like the deal, walk away. But don't agree, then back handily do your own thing.

[ryandavid__]

I would venture a guess you are alone on this, at least I really hope so. Not only is this unethical, will surely piss off the client, but also puts you in a bad position legally. I would not recommend this approach AT ALL!!

Ie, I have a shoot coming up in the next two weeks with a celebrity status client. We negotiated an agreement for exclusive rights for the client with magazine covers and advertising uses exempt, but otherwise basically what the OP's client wants.

How well do you think the client would react if say the PR or AD found out I held back the best images for my own use, and gave them secondary images!! Not well at all. Even if I just saved the out takes, they would be livid, and with every right.

Exclusive means just that. What if your wife said she would be exclusive to you during your marriage, but then secretly saved her best times to spend with an outside lover?

If you negotiate a deal, you follow through. Period! If you don't like the deal, walk away. But don't agree, then back handily do your own thing.

Thanks Stephen, but don't worry, I wouldn't have considered this approach at all.

[photoguy6405]

Maybe a compromise...

Your price and they keep the copyright... their price and you keep the copyright.

Just thinking out loud.

[jpwone]

Without copyright and no usages licence you cannot (in theory) keep a copy at all for any purpose. That even includes a back up copy on your PC that no-one else ever sees.

If you are giving them copyright then you will want a perpetual any region licence to use the images for portfolio purposes in any media. For this purpose you also require model releases or the club must have as a condition of entry that images may be used for promotional purposes.

Far better for you to keep copyright and give them the licence to use as they wish within the restrictions of any release requirements. Just to clarify - without releases they can only use them for image sales to the attendees. Do their entry conditions stipulate that there may be a photographer present and images may be used for promotional purposes?

Check out the score with regard to equipment insurance and third party liability. The first time someone pours a drink over a flash its a pain but not the end of the world. The time you turn round and take an eye out with a lens or they trip over some gear you will really wish you had asked about insurance or got some yourself.

However, £60 an evening (do 2 maybe 3 hours tops) hand over the cards (no PP at those prices) and pick up the cards next time you come in. Ideally get them to buy the cards. Do it 4 maybe 5 nights a week and you have a 12k to 15k earner. Cost wise allow £400 per annum for insurance and £1000 for equipment wear and tear and you still have a tidy profit and a shed load of experience.

[Visual Bride]

Firstly the real mistake here was going in at a price you were happy with, instead of pitching at a £100 and dropping to £60.

But you could make this work. I would prefer to get paid to do something I love. It's well below market rate but to get paid to photograph people is great training. View it as a stepping stone. Us it to improve your craft. Then once you are at a really good standard, pitch your services to another club at £120 a night and aim for £80.

When you pitch next time list everything thats included:
Photography
Editing
Resizing for the internet
FTP transferring
How can they not see the value when pitched correctly?

Remember the suggested charges from the club probably won't work longterm.
Good luck!

[Manticorp]

Hmm, £30-£40 for a night's work?

Doesn't sound too good to me, there are other photography jobs out there that are much more worthwhile.

Only problem is for places like nightclubs, there are lots of photographers so supply is high and a relatively low demand, meaning they can charge extortionate rates.

Of course, if you're just looking for some extra cash and don't really mind working those hours and if the club is nice, then it wouldn't be too bad, you could make some friends etc.

You could always negotiate the hours instead of the pay, it's certainly possible to get £40 worth of photos in less than 4-5 hours, maybe you could just go there for 2-3 hours instead at the beginning or end of the night?

Personally I don't think it would be worth it, anything under £15 an hour for me, including post processing, isn't worth it, and I'm a a student too (Y)

[KIPAX]

How many offers have you got on the table..


However, I would gain quite a lot from it..

Your the one asking the question and your the only one who understands it's not just about money at this stage.. Charge full rates when you know exactly what you are doing and can offer a proffesional service, Right now you don't (I base that on what you tell us) so reduced product = reduced price.