Need Flash tips for Indoor Sports

[xtrpureguts]

I received the 580EX as an early Christmas present. I have never used a Flash for indoor sports. I usually use my 20D / 70-200 IS combo at 1600 or 3200 ISO in Av mode 2.8 or 3.2 with good results. One gym has very bad lighting and gives me shutter speeds of 1/160 or less for basketball. This results in blurred pictures in most of my action shots. I have read through the FLASH sticky and linked sites but am still not clear how I should be setting up the Flash / Camera settings to get a decent shot for sports. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks....Don

[primoz]

It's easy. There's only few things to remember. Try to go as high as you can with time. For basketball and handball I usually set time to 1/500 and use FP (when I don't have old 1d). Usually no compensation is needed so I leave flash to FEC 0 and ETTL. And set aperture to 2.8 or 3.2, with ISO around 800. Even normal gyms should be light enough to get normal results with such settings. Especially as long as your subject is in reach of your flash. And one suggestion... Don't shot sport in AV, TV or P mode. Measure light, make few test shots and set it to manual. You will get much better results like this.

[kawter2]

you might want to check with the organization that you are shooting. Most do not allow flash in a sporting event due to distracting the athletes. even if it is not banned, it is not polite to say the least

[cecilc]

you might want to check with the organization that you are shooting.

Good advice, but my experience with using flash (at least, at high school sports events) has been very positive.

I've used flash shooting on the sidelines of high school football and on the baselines during high school basketball. Not once have I ever heard a complaint from an athlete, any coach, or any official that the flash is a distraction.

Having said that, these are the settings I usually use with flash for basketball. I have a 20D set on manual at 1/400 at 2.0 at ISO 1600. I also set a custom white balance. My flash (a 550EX) I also have set on manual and powered down to 1/32 power. I use flash only for a fill effect so that it's not so overpoweringly "flash-looking".

[phili1]

I agree with Cecilc. Manual mode is the best, the camera will tell the falsh to stay on till it is proper exposure. Go with extra batteries because if you set it at F4 it will use allot of juice.

Cecilc, nice shot.

[DaveG]

Good advice, but my experience with using flash (at least, at high school sports events) has been very positive.

I've used flash shooting on the sidelines of high school football and on the baselines during high school basketball. Not once have I ever heard a complaint from an athlete, any coach, or any official that the flash is a distraction.

Having said that, these are the settings I usually use with flash for basketball. I have a 20D set on manual at 1/400 at 2.0 at ISO 1600. I also set a custom white balance. My flash (a 550EX) I also have set on manual and powered down to 1/32 power. I use flash only for a fill effect so that it's not so overpoweringly "flash-looking".

I don't think that there's any flash being used in this shot at all. At least not from the camera position. There's NO fall off and the whole thing is perfectly sharp. I think that it was done with available light.

[cecilc]

I don't think that there's any flash being used in this shot at all.

Sorry, Dave, but you would be wrong in that thinking. My 550EX was on - it was powered down to 1/32 power, but it was on. As I said, I use flash only for fill - it's not the main source of light for the shot so you won't see any fall-off anywhere. But that's what I'm trying to acheive - the look of ambient exposure with the fill-in of the flash.

But the flash is ON in that shot .....

[drisley]

Cecilc, if I were to use a flash for sports (which I normally don't), your method is exactly how I would do it. Try to get as complete a picture without flash, then just use the flash for fill.
You obviously did a good job as you fooled people into thinking no flash was used.

[cecilc]

You obviously did a good job as you fooled people into thinking no flash was used.

Thanks for the kind words .... appreciate that.
Here's another example - available light with fill flash:

[DaveG]

Sorry, Dave, but you would be wrong in that thinking. My 550EX was on - it was powered down to 1/32 power, but it was on. As I said, I use flash only for fill - it's not the main source of light for the shot so you won't see any fall-off anywhere. But that's what I'm trying to acheive - the look of ambient exposure with the fill-in of the flash.

But the flash is ON in that shot .....

If you did use flash - and you know for sure - I'd say that it had no effect on the shot whatsoever. Look at the player whose back is turned and is closest to the camera. There's not a hint of fill on the back of his head. If there was effective fill flash on the guys farther away it would be noticible on him for sure. This is a very good shot and I wouldn't want to suggest that you use a hotter flash exposure. But if there is no effect at all why not use a shutterspeed faster than 1/250?

[cecilc]

I'd say that it had no effect on the shot whatsoever.

Well,....that's very possible ....and you make a good point, Dave.
I'm normally underneath the basket, but I had walked up into the stands just to see what shot I could get from a position more or less even with the basket. I may have been too far away for the "fill" to fill - in which case, you'd be right: it would have had no effect (or, at least, a minimal effect) on the exposure for the shot .....

[triangle]

Cecilc, would you tell us the lens that you are using for these shots? Very impressive looking shots. I have been enquiring about this in the "low-lighting" thread. These are the shots that I would like to get myself. I am debating on buying the flash or the lens with the low f-stop. I have the money for one at this time, but know that I really need both. A few quick questions:
1. Can the drebel get that shot with the right lens and/or flash?
2. Is there a huge difference between the 550ex vs. 580/ex?
3. Which would you get if you had the money for either?

[cecilc]

Cecilc, would you tell us the lens that you are using for these shots?
1. Can the drebel get that shot with the right lens and/or flash?
2. Is there a huge difference between the 550ex vs. 580/ex?
3. Which would you get if you had the money for either?

Hi, triangle ...

These shots were taken with a Canon 100 2.0 lens.
As for your other questions:
1) I don't know much about the drebel, but I'd have to guess at "Yes"
2) I have the 550EX, but not the 580EX. I don't know if there is a huge difference between the two or not.
3) Toss-up .... I got my 550EX before the 580 came out so I didn't have to make the choice.

[maderito]

Cecil,

I really like the action and intensity in your 2 shots.

I'm curious why you are using fill flash. Your expsures settings are typical for bbal in a non-pro arena. Good bbal pics (without strobes) in this kind of lighting tend to have good contrast without excessively harsh shadows or loss of shadow detail. I would think that fill flash would only reduce image contrast, thus losing some of the modeling effect of light on the players' bodies and uniforms. I think of fill flash as useful in bright sunlight when shadows are too deep.

[xtrpureguts]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will attempt both methods the next time I am in a poorly lit gym. I am sensitive to distracting the players regardless of Flash policy at venue. I have always shot without a flash when possible. I will be careful to select angles that avoid hitting the participants head on......Don

[triangle]

OK, I bought the 580EX flash and will upgrade my lens as I am able. I am going to attempt to shoot as suggested by Cecil; with the Having said that, these are the settings I usually use with flash for basketball. I have a 20D set on manual at 1/400 at 2.0 at ISO 1600. I also set a custom white balance. My flash (a 550EX) I also have set on manual and powered down to 1/32 power. After the holidays, I will experiment with your suggestions.

Now having only my two lenses, 4.0 is as low as I can go with my Tamron 75-300mm. I will probably try my Canon 18-55mm at 5.6 as well. Will I need to adjust shutter speeds with the higher apeture or do you think it will make a difference? I will post a pic after my experiment (Jan.). I will be glad for any advice that anyone has before my attempt. Also, I will be able to practice shoot before the game at my son's practice this week.

I plan on purchasing the Canon Telephoto EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Autofocus Lens as soon as I am able. (Drisley, suggested it in another post.http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/santa/icon_wink.gif ) I was able to test this lens at a local photoshop this week and I can't wait to get the $$$ to purchase it!

Thank you for everyone's input! I hope that all of you have a great Holiday Season!http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/santa/icon_smile.gif

[DaveG]

OK, I bought the 580EX flash and will upgrade my lens as I am able. I am going to attempt to shoot as suggested by Cecil; with the After the holidays, I will experiment with your suggestions.

Now having only my two lenses, 4.0 is as low as I can go with my Tamron 75-300mm. I will probably try my Canon 18-55mm at 5.6 as well. Will I need to adjust shutter speeds with the higher apeture or do you think it will make a difference? I will post a pic after my experiment (Jan.). I will be glad for any advice that anyone has before my attempt. Also, I will be able to practice shoot before the game at my son's practice this week.

I plan on purchasing the Canon Telephoto EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Autofocus Lens as soon as I am able. (Drisley, suggested it in another post.http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/santa/icon_wink.gif ) I was able to test this lens at a local photoshop this week and I can't wait to get the $$$ to purchase it!

Thank you for everyone's input! I hope that all of you have a great Holiday Season!http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/santa/icon_smile.gif

First off, inspite of what was suggested you can't use a shutterspeed faster than 1/250 of a second with the 20D and flash. The fastest you can use flash (X-synch) on the 20D is 1/250 and no faster. I suspect that - even on manual - the camera will default to 1/250 with the 580 aboard. But if it doesn't you'll need to make sure that your shutterspeed is no higher than 1/250. There is a special high speed synch available but is significantly weakens your flash power and is hard on the flash.

You asked about changing the shutterspeed with flash, but shutterspeed (with flash) only makes a difference if your shutterspeed/aperture is very close to the ambient light exposure. Then you are basically using the ambient light to illuminate the scene with the flash providing some fill light.

If you are using flash alone in a dark room then the shutterspeed doesn't mean a thing, except that you shouldn't exceed the synch speed. Think of it this way: If your shutterspeed is one second and you are in a totally dark room and you fire the shutter to take a picture (no flash) how much light has gotten to the sensor? None, right? Now if you change the shutterspeed to two seconds you've opened up a whole stop. How much light has gotten to the sensor now? Well none, inspite of opening up that one whole stop. If in the the middle of that two second exposure a light came on for 1/2 a second, how much light reached the sensor? A half second's worth. Although you had the shutterspeed on the camera set at two seconds you effectively got a shutterspeed of 1/2 second.

This is what happens with electronic flash. Say are using a shutterspeed of 1/125 @ f11 with ISO 100. The ambient light in the room is 1/4 of a second at f11 so you are using an exposure that is underexposing the ambient light by five stops - which is effectively gets no light to the sensor. But you are using a flash and the flash pulse is remarkably brief. Your flash - on a full power manual setting - pulses at around 1/700 of a second so THAT is going to be your effective shutterspeed (1/700 @ f11). An automatic flash pulse is much quicker, at durations that can be shorter than 1/10,000 of a second, and THAT (1/10,000 @ f11) could be your effective shutterspeed, if you were using that setting.

In that great basketball shot above my opinion is that there is no evidence that the flash had any effect at all. The player closest to the camera has no fill light on the back of his neck and since the true subjects are even farther away they would get even less light on them. So why is this shot so good? I think that there was enough ambient light to allow a shutterspeed that was fast enough to freeze the action and flash was low enough that it didn't provide any light at all.

This NO light is actually good since there is no ghosting.

Ghosting results when you use the ambient light + flash and the subjects are moving. First you do a meter reading to determine the ambient light and let's say it's 1/125 @ f5.6. Now 1/125 is not really fast enough to freeze action but if your largest aperture is f5.6 that's what you do. The results if you took a shot at a basketball game would be a slightly blurry but well exposed image. Then you use that same setup plus flash. The flash pulse zips out there at a minimum of 1/700 of a second and probably a lot faster, and this does freeze the action. Flash alone would provide good light on the subject but you'd have flash fall-off behind them, and it would look like 1950's (or 2004 yearbook) style basketball pictures. But with the combination of 1/125 @ f5.6 PLUS flash we've essentially made two exposures at the same time, a sharp one and a blurry one. The sharp flash shot will sit over the blurrier ambient light shot and sharp + blur = ghosting.

On the basketball shot above there wan't enough flash light to produce that sharper image so we aren't seeing any ghosting there. But as I say we aren't seeing any flash effect either.

Flash IS used by the Sports Illustrated type pros, but that's with strobes mounted in the ceiling of the building, radio slaved and very powerful so that they overpower the ambient light.

For most of us the only way to shoot sports is with the ambient light. That requires fast lenses and bright buildings AND THAT'S THE WAY IT IS! When you get your 85 you'll be able to use fast shutterspeeds and wide (f1.8 ) apertures and then you will get realistic looking sports images.

[phili1]

David correct me if I am wrong but my 420EX has a fast sync mode on the unit which lets it syc at faster speeds and I think the 550Ex does as well. Maybe the 580 eliminated it.

But I have tried it and it does work and does not revert back to 1/250.

The manual says : high speed sync can be used in the P _TV -AV - M modes.

When the flash mode is set to high spped sync (FP Flash) the flash can suncronize with shutter speed faster then the Cameras fastiest shutter speed. An Icon lights in the view finder indicating it.

[DaveG]

David correct me if I am wrong but my 420EX has a fast sync mode on the unit which lets it syc at faster speeds and I think the 550Ex does as well. Maybe the 580 eliminated it.

But I have tried it and it does work and does not revert back to 1/250.

The manual says : high speed sync can be used in the P _TV -AV - M modes.

When the flash mode is set to high spped sync (FP Flash) the flash can suncronize with shutter speed faster then the Cameras fastiest shutter speed. An Icon lights in the view finder indicating it.

That's true. But two things happen. The first is that it takes a LOT more power to get the high speed synch to work since it's a bunch of minipops that extends the flash's pulse time until it's at least 1/200 of a second long - rather than 1/700 +. If your subject is close then this will be fine but I suspect that lighting something ten meters away is going to be impossible.

In the 550's instruction book it has a highspeed synch table (page 121) that shows how the guide number is reduced as you increase the shutterspeeds.

The other thing is that these minipops really heat up the flash tube. I'd be very careful about using it while shooting sports. I've never been the kind of sports shooter who leans on the shutterbutton but I do shoot, "Pop. Pop, pop. Pop, pop. Pop, pop,pop. Pop." as I see the shot I want. On page 122 of the 550's instruction book, there's another table that indicates the maximum number of continuous flash pops Canon suggests. This table indicates - if nothing else - that Canon is a little worried about users burning out their new and very expensive flash. "No I'm sorry but that is NOT covered by the warantee ...".

In any case that's my two cents.

[triangle]

Originally Posted by DaveG

First off, inspite of what was suggested you can't use a shutterspeed faster than 1/250 of a second with the 20D and flash. The fastest you can use flash (X-synch) on the 20D is 1/250 and no faster.I am shooting with a Digital Rebel. I am not sure of my limitations there. I am in and out today with family. So far I am liking my results from family pics with my new flash, but I am shooting 1/60 - 1/30 for them (no action). I will be trying the action shots at a practice this week, let me know if you know about the speed limitations of my Rebel if you know. I will check back later and thanks for the tips. I am anxious to experiment with action shots.

:lol:

[DaveG]

I am shooting with a Digital Rebel. I am not sure of my limitations there. I am in and out today with family. So far I am liking my results from family pics with my new flash, but I am shooting 1/60 - 1/30 for them (no action). I will be trying the action shots at a practice this week, let me know if you know about the speed limitations of my Rebel if you know. I will check back later and thanks for the tips. I am anxious to experiment with action shots.

:lol:

You can use shutterspeeds up to 1/200 of a second with flash and the Digital Rebel. You don't mention what flash you are using and I'm not sure if high speed flash is possible with the D Rebel (others might want to comment). But I only shoot sports with available light. Yes you can shoot with camera mounted flash, and yes it will work after a fashion. The images will also suck.

[phili1]

My book says nothing. I knew about the reduction. I have never used it in practical situations., Thanks for the info.