First live LCD preview SLR?

[Cadenza]

Did anyone else catch this in Fuji's press release for the
upcoming S3?

> "For the first time on any digital SLR, a pre-exposure
> Live Image Mode has been incorporated to enable
> photographers to frame and focus images without the
> need to use the viewfinder. Activated for up to 30
> seconds prior to a normal exposure, Live Image Mode
> is ideal for shots using a tripod as well as effective
> capture of candid images."

Sounds like a very tepid and compromised start for
an evolutionary technological step that is highly
anticipated -- so I'm still going to hold out for when
Canon delivers on a DSLR with a swivel screen.

In fact, I have decided that I don't want to upgrade
to the 20D; and will invest in more lenses instead.
The marginal improvents on 20D are nice, but the
grip problem shutting down the camera at a critical
moment is a big showstopper that will require a
major redesign, or a new model from Canon -- sorta
like the D60/10D situation; the 10D came out only
because the D60 was a compromised model.

Otherwise, at ISO under 1600 the image quality is
the same as the 10D. I still love the images I'm getting
from the 10D and I can travel abroad without being
too paranoid about the camera being lost, stolen or
damaged -- losing the 10D would be a healthy chunk
of cash, but not a disastrous loss.

If I were to get what I really want -- a 1DMKII (with
a swivel screen, if possible!) -- I'd be constantly
worried about it when traveling, for it would be a
disastrous loss if something were to happen to it.
Sure don't need to carry that on my shoulders...

[evilenglishman]

personally i have no use for a pre-shot preview. once you start using a an lcd instead of the viewfinder to take the images it ceases to be a 'proper' camera to me.


but the
grip problem shutting down the camera at a critical
moment is a big showstopper that will require a
major redesign, or a new model from Canon
not sure what you are talking about there. I have the grip and have never had that problem

[tommykjensen]

personally i have no use for a pre-shot preview. once you start using a an lcd instead of the viewfinder to take the images it ceases to be a 'proper' camera to me.

not sure what you are talking about there. I have the grip and have never had that problem

Agree completely on both.

[KennyG]

Pandering to the P&S brigade instead of fixing a poorly designed camera that has failed to move off the bottom rung since its launch sounds like desperation not innovation to me. As we say in the UK, it would be as much use to me as a chocolate tea-pot.

[jaypie77]

Pre-shot preview is crap - when I started photography for my school yearbook a few years back, I had a semi-dslr with a preview screen. The first problem, of course, was that you ran out of batteries very fast. Besides that, though, I found that I felt less like I was a photographer and more like I was taking "screen shots" of life. Another huge problem, now that I think about it, is that LCD preview screens are way to0 small to work well this way.

I will buy the first DSLR with a 20" attached preview LCD.

[Olegis]

I wouldn't be all negative about the live-preview LCD - it was very useful on my old Minolta 7i and Olympus E20, especially with candid shots or shots from very low (ground) and very high levels. You can be inside a crowd with your wide-angle lens, and then rise the camera above your head, COMPOSE (something you cannot do with a current SLR) and make the picture. I made a lot of pictures like that.
Candids shooting - when you're there with the camera raised, you draw attention. With rotating LCD screen you can look like someone just fooling with the setting, while actually COMPOSING and SHOOTING - without anyone noticing that.

I would welcome a live-preview LCD on my 10D. It won't replace the optical view-finder, but it would give me additional shooting possibilities.

[jaypie77]

With rotating LCD screen you can look like someone just fooling with the setting

I see your point, but I would argue that this will not be the case for long. With an increasing number of stories being publicised about perverts with cameras and an increasing awareness among average people of rotating LCD's, I think that the day when you could do this kind of thing are numbered.

As for crowd shots, true, this kind of thing would help in a crowd-situation, but I still prefer the photographer's skill of finding and gaining access to a vantage point. Another point to consider - holding a camera above a crowd requires a light camera - I doubt anybody will be holding up a 30D with a 100-400L on it above the crowd.

[PaulB]

Preview screen would be OK on a tripod - not for anywhere else, at least not on what pretended to be a serious DSLR. And the battery consumption - bad enough 'chimping' all the time..........However we must wait and see exactly how it works
Hi Ken. I just got back from the Jack Frost Media Day. Cold or what? And the first snow of the winter! Are you doing the Rally itself?

Oh yes Ken, got a Pro8 monopod - and it's all black.....................Tony is now the one out of step! And mine came directly from the importers so I know it's right.

[Olegis]

There are enough perverts with and without cameras, so let's not bring them into the discussion. About crowd shots - I've shot a couple of mass demonstration, and from my experience it's very importand to act quickly. It's very difficult to act quickly when you're inside the crowd, it's difficult even to move in these conditions - so tilting LCD screen would give me the more flexibility in these situations. About the weight issue - do you have to use your longest lens for that kind of shots ? Absolutely not.

Personally, I don't see why live-preview tilting and rotating LCD screen is bad.


Preview screen would be OK on a tripod - not for anywhere else, at least not on what pretended to be a serious DSLR

Why not ?

[KennyG]

Hi Ken. I just got back from the Jack Frost Media Day. Cold or what? And the first snow of the winter! Are you doing the Rally itself?

Oh yes Ken, got a Pro8 monopod - and it's all black.....................Tony is now the one out of step! And mine came directly from the importers so I know it's right.

Oh yes, I'll be there. Looks like a long day though, with winter woollies as well as lots of hot drinks.

We must tell Tony that his looks like its made of fake CF and maybe he has bought an imitation. ;)

See you next week.

[Cadwell]

:mad: 'tis the end of civilisation as we know it. :(

[ToddMorris]

Hi,

I recently upgraded to a 20D. I love the image quality, the flexibility of shooting RAW, the cool new lenses I've been able to buy, etc, etc, etc ..

However, the biggest thing I miss about my Sony F717 is the tilt preview screen. Unlike a smaller P&S I would never hold it out in front of my body to use the preview screen. Instead, I would tilt it, and basically shoot with it anchored to my hip/stomach (as opposed to my eye). This allowed my eyes to be free to view the entire scene ... kind of like a real life rangefinder. I could then just look down to frame the shot, and click the shutter when appropriate.

Even at the risk of offending "real" photographers, I would say that if this type of functionality were to become widely available in a DSLR quality camera, most people would quickly find it to be a very useful (and possibly even their prefered) method for taking certain types of pictures.

Just my opinion,
Todd

[evilenglishman]

I wouldn't be all negative about the live-preview LCD - it was very useful on my old Minolta 7i and Olympus E20, especially with candid shots or shots from very low (ground) and very high levels. You can be inside a crowd with your wide-angle lens, and then rise the camera above your head, COMPOSE (something you cannot do with a current SLR) and make the picture. I made a lot of pictures like that.
Angle finder c

[Longwatcher]

- I doubt anybody will be holding up a 30D with a 100-400L on it above the crowd.

Does a 10D, BG-ED3 (w/2 BP511), 70-200/2.8 IS and 550EX flash count?
Been there done that, got some decent pictures (the trick is getting used to pointing the lens without looking through the viewfinder - still need some pratice, but I am getting much better at it - aim low)

I do prefer the 16-35 for crowd shots though and its a little lighter, but not much after everything else. Also I highly recommend the E-1 hand strap.

It is not as heavy as you think it might be, but I couldn't hold it up there all day long.

But back to the topic, I think it would be possible to to have a smaller sensor in the optical path between mirror and viewfinder so you could get the best of both worlds, however it would not be easy and still have a nice bright view. I personally would like the option as it would serve the same function as my Angle finder C does, but even better. The trick is can it be done and still give the precise manual focus I purchased my 1DsMkII and the Ec-b focus screen for?

[Cadenza]

Angle finder c

The "angle finder" is a cumbersome substitute for a
decent swivel screen such as the ones in found in the
G-series. It's a bit odd, but it seems to me like there
a degree of resistance if not downright hostility from
SLR purists towards the concept of live LCD preview
in DSLR systems.

That is just so unnecessary. It is just another tool, and
one doesn't have to use it if one doesn't want to use it.
No one is advocating the obsoletization of optical
viewfinders -- as a matter of fact, the technology is not
yet perfected for DSLR cameras. And to say that if a
camera has a live LCD it is no longer a camera is simply
irrational. Just show me the photos, and I'll decide if
it's a camera.

LCD preview, with all its limitations, is a great adjunct
compositional tool, and my guess is that we will see a
wave of very interesting work from pro SLR format
photogs once the device matures into the medium.

Regards, Cadenza

[defordphoto]

Three thumbs down for a preview LCD.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

[Nicky D]

Prior to my 20D I had a Sony 707 with an LCD that also tilted. I used the screen on a regular basis. I personally found this feature quite useful at times. Here is a shot (http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291011745&idx=1) that I took when we were in London. It was taken with a wide angle lense and star filter. I composed the shot using the screen. I foud it to be beneficial. http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291011745&idx=1

[Longwatcher]

It is not that I am against a preview screen, but I don't see how it can be done and still have the same functionality in terms of precise control when needed with the DSLR. In order to have precise control the the preview screen must feed from either the camera's CMOS recording sensor or a secondary sensor in the optical path.

If it feeds from the primary recording sensor then the sensor will need to be redesigned to switch between previewing and recording modes (yes I know it can be done). The focusing screen would need to be in front of the sensor during previewing and then go away for recording. It could probably take the place of the mirror, which in theory would not be needed any more as it would replace the view finder. The catch is the noise level and pixel failure rate may increase dramatically if it had to handle both duties at a video rate. Could be done though.

But for me, the way to handle the issue is to do something similar to my XL-2 camcorder, where I have the option to view as if through a viewfinder or pop the cover off and view it in LCD mode. Same situations, on tripod I tend to use LCD view, when on my shoulder I tend to use the viewfinder mode.

Also, when you figure out how to get the precise manual focus I need with a preview screen I will be sold on the concept, until then, I will stick to viewfinder, mirror and Angle finder C. But would love the option.

Just my opinion,

[ToddMorris]

But for me, the way to handle the issue is to do something similar to my XL-2 camcorder, where I have the option to view as if through a viewfinder or pop the cover off and view it in LCD mode. Same situations, on tripod I tend to use LCD view, when on my shoulder I tend to use the viewfinder mode.


Hi,

I think is pretty much what I was trying to say too ... I wouldn't want to have the LCD instead of the optical viewfinder ... I'd like to have in addtion to the normal slr viewfinder.

Todd

[theflyingkiwi]

Three thumbs down for a preview LCD.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

I 2nd that :)

anyway when you can use a LCD to see the picture, then what's the point in an SLR. You might as well have a P&S

[Malaxos1]

I don't think the image quality is the same at all. The Dynamic range is definitley improved, I shot a wedding in almost complete darkness and usually the groom is lost in a dark background, not this time. Also, the 20D focused instantly without roaming. I did have my camera freeze up twice though, so I will need to upgrade my firmware...Dean

[Persian-Rice]

So you guys are saying you wouldnt take the preview even if it was offered? I would'nt use it unless I was using a tripod, but it is a good feature to have.

I would not go and spend an extra penny for the option, but if it's there, why not take it?

[transcend]

I 2nd that :)

anyway when you can use a LCD to see the picture, then what's the point in an SLR. You might as well have a P&S

How about the high quality and option of many lenses? I just don't see how any of you can construe this as being a "bad" thing. It is simply another tool to make your life easy.

When shooting BMX or skareboarding in the park, it would be infinetly handy to use a 15mm and an lcd preview screen. I get about 80% of the shots i want when i use the flyby method..hold the camera out at arms length about 2ft from the object at waist height and blast away...but an LCD would enable me to get the shot perfect as I would at least have a general idea of what I am shooting.

[FlyingPete]

Something I have thought would be useful, as for some work I have explored the option of the anglefinder, a small webcam like device that you can fit to the viewfinder, and then use a small portable screen away from the camera, it wouldn't be reliable for focusing, and you won't be able to see much detail, but you should be able to see basic composition etc.

Just a thought...

[tacos3]

Following the lead from Fuji on LCD preview is like Porsche following the engineering lead from Yugo for car design. LCD preview might be a useful feature but more market research is needed. Many experinced SLR shooters will hate it. Many upgrading from P&S will want it. It comes down to a feature for $$. I won't want it if it adds any cost.

If I wanted a P&S, if use the one I have.

Darren

[KennyG]

I 2nd that :)

anyway when you can use a LCD to see the picture, then what's the point in an SLR. You might as well have a P&S

At that point your DSLR becomes a P&S camera and that's when I'll become a luddite.

[bachscuttler]

Pandering to the P&S brigadeAt that point your DSLR becomes a P&S camera and that's when I'll become a luddite.Typical bigotry that puts people off the great hobby of photography and makes people leave great forums like this

Enjoy your elite club, I'm outa here, I've had enough of the snobbery and find your condescending attitude insulting.
Your attitudes do nothing to encourage people new to photography to further their skills. 'nuff said and bye to all the members that have offered encouragement and the long suffering Pekka

[Mogwyth]

As long as it did not compromise anything else I can't realy see any problem with it being there, it's like choosing whether to use the auto modes, av/tv or manual you use whatever suits your needs and gives you the results you want.

[theflyingkiwi]

How about the high quality and option of many lenses? I just don't see how any of you can construe this as being a "bad" thing. It is simply another tool to make your life easy.

When shooting BMX or skareboarding in the park, it would be infinetly handy to use a 15mm and an lcd preview screen. I get about 80% of the shots i want when i use the flyby method..hold the camera out at arms length about 2ft from the object at waist height and blast away...but an LCD would enable me to get the shot perfect as I would at least have a general idea of what I am shooting.

Sorry but I seem to be having problems understanding what you mean. When I am going to shoot anything I look throw the lens, using that to frame the shot. Using the LCD can do the same thing, but the point of an SLR is to look throw the lens. When I do that I can have more control over what I shoot and even see the DOF before I take the shot. With an LCD you really can't tell much.

Even to find out if the subject is in focus, you have to use the zoom function when doesn't always work that well.

I don't have a problem having that option. I just know that I won't be using it much.

[Ajay213]

Why would I want an LCD screen that in no way represents the resolution (sorry 6-18+MP doesn't fit on a 2" LCD screen) or the true representation of light being captured on my camera? I'm stuck using the LCD on my P&S digital cameras because it's the only thing that tells me if I'm getting the exposure I want, other than that the LCD never represents what I see on my computer screen/printed out.

The comparison to video cams doesn't work because I can't think of one that let's you look optically through the lens (most have a small screen built into the viewfinder).

And this may be just me, but I take better pictures when looking through the lens of my SLR camera, it's forcing my mind to think about taking photo's....instead of just taking snapshots.

Andrew

[evilenglishman]

Typical bigotry that puts people off the great hobby of photography and makes people leave great forums like this

Enjoy your elite club, I'm outa here, I've had enough of the snobbery and find your condescending attitude insulting.
Your attitudes do nothing to encourage people new to photography to further their skills. 'nuff said and bye to all the members that have offered encouragement and the long suffering Pekka
sorry but i don't see the biggotry.
This post was about the Fuji S3 pro. The original poster mentioned having a swivel screen on the 1Dmk2 which is a pro camera. You will be lucky to find many (if any) pro photographers who would want this feature.

[arumdevil]

I would imagine that however they have managed to achieve this new system it will adversely affect shutter delay.....

[bachscuttler]

sorry but i don't see the biggotry.
This post was about the Fuji S3 pro. The original poster mentioned having a swivel screen on the 1Dmk2 which is a pro camera. You will be lucky to find many (if any) pro photographers who would want this feature.
My issue was with people who arent pro and don't yet have pro gear being called Luddites. Dress it up how you like, it was insulting. The only reaoson I am still here is because I can't find a way of deleting my membership and have joined a new and more freindly UK based site

[Mogwyth]

At that point your DSLR becomes a P&S camera and that's when I'll become a luddite.
It takes more than a live preview screen to make a camera P&S, it does not make any camera simpler to use, to me it would simply enable shots to be composed in difficult circumstances, like instead of laying a puddle to get a shot of some fungi.

Just MHO.

[transcend]

Sorry but I seem to be having problems understanding what you mean. When I am going to shoot anything I look throw the lens, using that to frame the shot. Using the LCD can do the same thing, but the point of an SLR is to look throw the lens. When I do that I can have more control over what I shoot and even see the DOF before I take the shot. With an LCD you really can't tell much.

Even to find out if the subject is in focus, you have to use the zoom function when doesn't always work that well.

I don't have a problem having that option. I just know that I won't be using it much.

The point is it is quite simple to re-engineer the typical; DSLR so that the view you see on an LCD DOES indeed see things as you would through the lens. They simply place the sensor where the mirror currently is, and allow you to flip the mirror over it if you want to look through the eyepiece. The sensor would therefore simply replicate the eyepiece view on an LCD, allowing you to work at strange angles you could not otherwise easily do.

With a decent quality LCD you could quite easily see if things were in focus. When you are already paying 1500-8000 for a dslr, another $40 for a high quality lcd isn't going to break the bank.

Being a snob about it and saying that it isn't "photography" and that it turns the camera into a P&S is absurd.

[transcend]

It takes more than a live preview screen to make a camera P&S, it does not make any camera simpler to use, to me it would simply enable shots to be composed in difficult circumstances, like instead of laying a puddle to get a shot of some fungi.

Just MHO.

BINGO. Thank you.

[transcend]

I would imagine that however they have managed to achieve this new system it will adversely affect shutter delay.....

Not necessarily. Although, if they are doing what I am guessing they did, it would make the camera slightly deeper, enabling a mirror/sensor #2 swap.

[slin100]

I find the obstinacy of anti-LCD swivel/preview screen crowd very reminiscent of the anti-digital crowd. Personally, I liked the swivel screen on my old Canon G1. It would have made photographing my kids from a low viewpoint the other day much easier than with my 10D.

I'll gladly take a preview screen so long as it doesn't compromise image quality. A camera is a tool and anything that makes the tool more usable is fine by me.

[ToddMorris]

Sorry but I seem to be having problems understanding what you mean. When I am going to shoot anything I look throw the lens, using that to frame the shot. Using the LCD can do the same thing, but the point of an SLR is to look throw the lens. When I do that I can have more control over what I shoot and even see the DOF before I take the shot. With an LCD you really can't tell much.

Even to find out if the subject is in focus, you have to use the zoom function when doesn't always work that well.


You must be talking about "cheap" P&S cameras. On my Sony 717, I could see DOF, and the autofocus worked just fine, even when looking at it on the lcd screen.

It seems to me that the main drawback of P&S cameras (even the "prosumer" ones) is the small sensor size.

If there was some way that I could have the 20D sensor resolution, fast buffer, low noise, etc, in the design of my old f717, I'd probably shoot with that more often than with the 20D itself ... mainly because it's smaller, lighter, quieter, and I really do think it can (at times) be an advantage to shoot from the hip with a tilted up lcd screen.

I really can't understand what the big resistance to this idea is caused by ... other than possibly, as someone else stated, snobbery.

Honestly, if it was possible to have a tilt LCD screen on a DSLR, In Addition to the optical viewfinder, what would be the harm?

... would someone who purchased (and used) such a camera be any less of a photographer because of it?

Todd

[FlyingPete]

It takes more than a live preview screen to make a camera P&S, it does not make any camera simpler to use, to me it would simply enable shots to be composed in difficult circumstances, like instead of laying a puddle to get a shot of some fungi.

Just MHO.

And that folks is why I still have my G3, it is probably the single best feature of the camera. I often carry both around because of this, either waist shooting, over my head, or near the ground. I have not found a decent way of doing any of these with an SLR at this point.

As tacky as a flip screen preview LCD screen sounds on a DSLR, it is a feature I might actually use from time to time!

[tim]

I might occasionally use a preview screen, but it would be rare. I wouldn't buy a camera because of it.

What compromises have been made (if any) to enable this lcd preview?

[Ajay213]

The point is it is quite simple to re-engineer the typical; DSLR so that the view you see on an LCD DOES indeed see things as you would through the lens. They simply place the sensor where the mirror currently is, and allow you to flip the mirror over it if you want to look through the eyepiece. The sensor would therefore simply replicate the eyepiece view on an LCD, allowing you to work at strange angles you could not otherwise easily do.

With a decent quality LCD you could quite easily see if things were in focus. When you are already paying 1500-8000 for a dslr, another $40 for a high quality lcd isn't going to break the bank.

Where are you going to find an LCD panel that will display the full resolution of the camera through the viewfinder (read: REALLY small)? Your typical $1k 20" LCD monitor can't display 6MP without scaling it down, let alone the high MP count in the high end models. Without being able to see a "true" representation of the picture you are taking, what is the point of having a Single Reflex Lens camera? Why not get a high end P&S.

Let alone other issues such as shutter delay, think you can pop this image sensor out of the way in say 1/8000th of a second, or do it 4+ times a second and do it for tens of thousands of shots?

If you need all those things, how about a Powershot Pro 1. 8MP, 28-200mm (35mm Equivalent) L lens (should cover 99% of shots by 99% of people), plenty of manual control, etc all for less than a Digital Rebel.

[evilenglishman]

The "angle finder" is a cumbersome substitute are you speaking from experience or hear say like your first post about the 20D grip turning off the camera?

I use the angle finder quite a bit and don't find it "cumbersome"

[theflyingkiwi]

You must be talking about "cheap" P&S cameras. On my Sony 717, I could see DOF, and the autofocus worked just fine, even when looking at it on the lcd screen.


I have gone from the G3 (my first camera) to the 10D, so I have seen the use of having a LCD screen. When have the camera i n a place that would have been hard to use the view finder. some times, like once or twice a year, is when it comes in handy. Would it stop me from getting the shot, I don't think so.

I upgrade from the G3 to the 10d, due to speed. When I press the sutter button I want the photo to be taken at that point. when you have the LCD displaying the picture, comes at a cost. that cost is normaly (and up to this point) the shutter delay.

as I have said before "I don't have a problem having that option. I just know that I won't be using it much." if it is there and they can do it with out changing the SLR to much, then well done to the engineers.

[transcend]

Where are you going to find an LCD panel that will display the full resolution of the camera through the viewfinder (read: REALLY small)? Your typical $1k 20" LCD monitor can't display 6MP without scaling it down, let alone the high MP count in the high end models. Without being able to see a "true" representation of the picture you are taking, what is the point of having a Single Reflex Lens camera? Why not get a high end P&S.

SO, you are telling me your eyes can see 6mp right? Man, you must have awesome bionic eyes! Where can I get some?

Let alone other issues such as shutter delay, think you can pop this image sensor out of the way in say 1/8000th of a second, or do it 4+ times a second and do it for tens of thousands of shots?

Oh, so your mirror doesn't pop up out of the way in 8000th of a second? Did you know the mirror is bigger and weighs more then a sensor?

As for the G1, no thanks, I have a 10d and L glass. Works fine for me.

The whole point being, if an LCD doesn;t do what you want, fine. It does do what many others would want, so stop being a camera snob and deal with the fact that you are not the god given gift to photography. People work in different ways.

[evilenglishman]

from dpreview:

No other digital SLR has ever been able to provide a live view on the LCD monitor, until now. The S3 Pro has a unique (if slightly pointless) feature. You can switch to a 'Live Image' mode which provides a video-like B&W live view feed direct from the sensor to the LCD monitor (just like a consumer digital camera). In this mode you can also magnify the center portion of the frame. The important limitations however are: (a) its for display only, you can not trigger the shutter release in this mode, (b) the viewfinder is blacked out because the mirror must swing up and shutter open, (c) the display is in black and white, (d) the display can only be provided for a maximum of 30 seconds. All in all this mode seems to be more of a technology stunt than a useful feature.

[transcend]

from dpreview:

No other digital SLR has ever been able to provide a live view on the LCD monitor, until now. The S3 Pro has a unique (if slightly pointless) feature. You can switch to a 'Live Image' mode which provides a video-like B&W live view feed direct from the sensor to the LCD monitor (just like a consumer digital camera). In this mode you can also magnify the center portion of the frame. The important limitations however are: (a) its for display only, you can not trigger the shutter release in this mode, (b) the viewfinder is blacked out because the mirror must swing up and shutter open, (c) the display is in black and white, (d) the display can only be provided for a maximum of 30 seconds. All in all this mode seems to be more of a technology stunt than a useful feature.

that is indeed a useless feature

[FlyingPete]

from dpreview:

No other digital SLR has ever been able to provide a live view on the LCD monitor, until now. The S3 Pro has a unique (if slightly pointless) feature. You can switch to a 'Live Image' mode which provides a video-like B&W live view feed direct from the sensor to the LCD monitor (just like a consumer digital camera). In this mode you can also magnify the center portion of the frame. The important limitations however are: (a) its for display only, you can not trigger the shutter release in this mode, (b) the viewfinder is blacked out because the mirror must swing up and shutter open, (c) the display is in black and white, (d) the display can only be provided for a maximum of 30 seconds. All in all this mode seems to be more of a technology stunt than a useful feature.

OK useless, waste of time, pointless, why bother?

You would probably find that sufficent hacking of frimware on exisiting DSLR's could yield the same feature (OK you would really have to know what you are doing, AND probably have to have access to Canon source code).

[theflyingkiwi]

from dpreview:

No other digital SLR has ever been able to provide a live view on the LCD monitor, until now. The S3 Pro has a unique (if slightly pointless) feature. You can switch to a 'Live Image' mode which provides a video-like B&W live view feed direct from the sensor to the LCD monitor (just like a consumer digital camera). In this mode you can also magnify the center portion of the frame. The important limitations however are: (a) its for display only, you can not trigger the shutter release in this mode, (b) the viewfinder is blacked out because the mirror must swing up and shutter open, (c) the display is in black and white, (d) the display can only be provided for a maximum of 30 seconds. All in all this mode seems to be more of a technology stunt than a useful feature.

In that case then I will but some racing stripe on my camera, the might end up more usefull. :)

[defordphoto]

So you guys are saying you wouldnt take the preview even if it was offered? I would'nt use it unless I was using a tripod, but it is a good feature to have.

I would not go and spend an extra penny for the option, but if it's there, why not take it?

Not with the current technology of LCD screens. Simply said: They suck. They are slow and the detail is terrible for judging a real life photograph before pushing the shutter button.

I'd much rather see the memory and circuitry used for more useful features than being able to hold the camera out in front of you like a P&S geek when shooting photos.

[Ajay213]

SO, you are telling me your eyes can see 6mp right? Man, you must have awesome bionic eyes! Where can I get some?

If you can't tell the difference between an image displayed in sub 1"x1" LCD display (through the viewfinder) and a "live" image perhaps photography isn't the right hobby. I use a SLR camera over something like a Powershot Pro because I get to see a real life image through the lens, and depending on camera settings what my eye sees is what will be recorded. This isn't the case when you're talking about using an LCD viewfinder. Hence my question, what is the point of getting an SLR camera if you are going to take out the SLR part?

Oh, so your mirror doesn't pop up out of the way in 8000th of a second? Did you know the mirror is bigger and weighs more then a sensor?

Got any tech to back that up, or just pulling it out of the air?

As for the G1, no thanks, I have a 10d and L glass. Works fine for me.

I didn't say G1, I said Pro 1, which has more megapixels and L glass for A LOT less $$$ than you spent, and it includes a flip out LCD panel for you to take pictures on.

The whole point being, if an LCD doesn;t do what you want, fine. It does do what many others would want, so stop being a camera snob and deal with the fact that you are not the god given gift to photography. People work in different ways.

Hey, if you can make it work without getting rid of the SLR part of an SLR camera and it doesn't add cost to the camera I could care less if you can see live images on the LCD or not. My post was pointing out that the solution of putting another sensor and an LCD panel in place of the mirror wasn't exactly easy and had a lot of "negatives" associated with it. If that's being a snob, then I apologize, your definition of snob must be different than mine.

[jaypie77]

One last thing from me: Canon didn't become the world's best camera company by trotting out ****-gimmicks that appeal solely to gear-heads. There seems to be a trend in many products today towards sticking more "features" on a product, and although this is a lucrative way for companies to make money off of people with a high amount of disposable income, the most lucrative market is the professional, commercial market. I don't see that market embracing this kind of product and I doubt we'll see any pro's on the sidelines of the Superbowl with arms outstretched.

[Cadenza]

Well, you optical viewfinder purists can breathe easy
for the time being, as the technology for live preview
in DSLRs still suck. But once it evolves to the level of
usability that it does in the G-series, I'm sure you'll see
the light; evilenglishmen and women will be destroyed,
and then we P&S geeks will rule the world. Down with
the one-eyed squeeze! :-)

Rest be assured: a credible, usable live LCD in a SLR
is manifest destiny; the engineers might take 2 years,
or five, or ten, or twenty. But it will arrive; the sheer
interest in this thread is proof of this. And I'm sure the
camera company who can't get it together when the
time comes, will be touting in their marketing how
they focus on "professional products," hence not interested
in developing the live LCD preview feature on DSLRs.

Speaking of purists, where are those photogs who
used to insist until they were blue in the face that
digital will never be as good film in the SLR format?

[jaypie77]

Speaking of purists, where are those photogs who
used to insist until they were blue in the face that
digital will never be as good film in the SLR format?

Not me, but not every new thing is an advance. Would you like your DSLR to have a built in cellphone and dozens of games on it? Perhaps it can play MP3s too and also have a built-in hand cooling fan and hand-warmers for winter. Actually, that would have been useful today.

[Sketcher]

I can think of a few times where an LCD Preview would have come in handy. When I got my 10D, the lack of a preview screen was one of the first features I noticed that I missed from my P&S experience. Now that I've had my 10D for some time, it's really the rare instance that I've really wished for that option.

What it all comes down to for me however, is that rather than add a preview LCD feature into a Pro-DSLR I'd much rather have that money spent on making the camera itself that much better. I realize that for some "better" may well include a preview lcd screen. I don't have an issue of what is and is not 'true' photography. I'd just rather spend that R&D and build cost on getting me more FPS, better image quality, improve materials etc. etc..........

[Ajay213]

Well, you optical viewfinder purists can breathe easy
for the time being, as the technology for live preview
in DSLRs still suck. But once it evolves to the level of
usability that it does in the G-series, I'm sure you'll see
the light; evilenglishmen and women will be destroyed,
and then we P&S geeks will rule the world. Down with
the one-eyed squeeze!

Rest be assured: a credible, usable live LCD in a SLR
is manifest destiny; the engineers might take 2 years,
or five, or ten, or twenty. But it will arrive; the sheer
interest in this thread is proof of this. And I'm sure the
camera company who can't get it together when the
time comes, will be touting in their marketing how
they focus on "professional products," hence not interested
in developing the live LCD preview feature on DSLRs.

I have no doubt that the technology is coming, but it isn't here yet. There will be a day when you can look at the preview screen and it will show exactly what is captured by the camera, there will be no compromise involved and it will be an overall improvement. That's just technology, get on the bus or get left behind.

I don't see all that many "purists" here, I just see a lot of people who don't want to "downgrade" their equipment/experience/whatever just for the sake of technology.

Speaking of purists, where are those photogs who
used to insist until they were blue in the face that
digital will never be as good film in the SLR format?

Most of those people don't "get" technology, there will be a day in the not so distant future, even before quite a few of us are dead and gone that film will be entirely replaced by digital, there will always be a few purists who won't switch over, but that's the case with anything (these are the people who swear up and down a 60's era manual 35mm camera is still better than current 35mm cameras).

But also in their defense, it took a long time to get to today where consumer level digital (well very high end consumer level) is getting to 35mm film quality. The first consumer digital still camera was made back in the 80's (hooked up to a TV or color printer), and the first computer capable cameras in the early 90's. We're probably 2-4 years away before we see "true" 35mm level digital cameras in the sub $1k price bracket (adjusted for inflation, but maybe not marketing).

Today a $200 Canon Rebel <whatever model> film body will take a picture that is every bit as detailed as a 1ds MK2 (still have a bunch of years before we get to those price levels). ;)

[Persian-Rice]

RFM, you make very good points, and I agree. I would rather have their R&D teams spend on improving what already exists. But if they can do it and keep improving the camera, then why not.

But cutting back on other improvements for LCD preview, I would actually consider dropping the brand if I was using it. I don't want to use a camera from a company who cares more about making its pro/amateur equipment more user friendly for regular consumers. That is just another way to gauge the pockets of people who don't need the equipment while leaving serious photographers out in the cold.

[pradeep1]

It is not that I am against a preview screen, but I don't see how it can be done and still have the same functionality in terms of precise control when needed with the DSLR. In order to have precise control the the preview screen must feed from either the camera's CMOS recording sensor or a secondary sensor in the optical path.

If it feeds from the primary recording sensor then the sensor will need to be redesigned to switch between previewing and recording modes (yes I know it can be done). The focusing screen would need to be in front of the sensor during previewing and then go away for recording. It could probably take the place of the mirror, which in theory would not be needed any more as it would replace the view finder. The catch is the noise level and pixel failure rate may increase dramatically if it had to handle both duties at a video rate. Could be done though.

But for me, the way to handle the issue is to do something similar to my XL-2 camcorder, where I have the option to view as if through a viewfinder or pop the cover off and view it in LCD mode. Same situations, on tripod I tend to use LCD view, when on my shoulder I tend to use the viewfinder mode.

Also, when you figure out how to get the precise manual focus I need with a preview screen I will be sold on the concept, until then, I will stick to viewfinder, mirror and Angle finder C. But would love the option.

Just my opinion,

If there is a simple button to enable mirror lockup, then we can have preview on the LCD, since the light is falling on the sensor directly. After coming from film EOS cameras and getting a G3, I at first scoffed at using the LCD to compose, but after finding it useful in situations where I could not get my face to viewfinder, I started to use the LCD to compose more and more. An example of this would be this picture:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1775592&size=lg

where if I could not have held the camera at arms length away from my face and still tightly compose on this little bee, there is no way I could have got this macro shot. Having that type of accessibility and flexibility in composition will take dSLR photography further. The technology may not be perfect now, but I think if it does mature, it will offer benefits. I still would prefer viewing through the optical viewfinder, but LCD would allow me to take those shots that I would otherwise miss.

So I say, yeah, for live preview LCDs on dSLRs with live preview histograms as well...that would help us judge exposure much better than using our eyes in an optical viewfinder :cool:

[evilenglishman]

and lets not forget to get Canon to install the oblgitory mp3 player, 10 second video capture, telephone and game console

[Olegis]

Angle finder c

That comes at an additional price, of course ($180 to be exact). I personally wouldn't buy it because I would use it very rarely - that's why I would welcome the built-in live preview screen.

I still don't understand why people are so negative about a live preview screen - if it comes as an additional feature built in the camera, why not accept it ? I'll say it again - I won't use it all the time INSTEAD of the optical VF (clearly because of the LCD limitations), but there will be times when such feature will be welcome. If a feature further expands your camera flexibility - why refuse it ?

pradeep1 raised another situation where the live preview LCD would be extremely useful - macro shots. Not everyone owns the longest macro lenses which allow high magnification while staying at a safe distance. I myself tried to use pradeep1's tecnique about a month ago, trying to get close to a dragonfly - only I tried to use the optical VF of my 10D. My shots would be much better if my 10D had the live preview LCD.

[KennyG]

Simple answer. Someone build a P&S camera that can take one of the popular DSLR/SLR lens range. It will keep the amateurs happy and leave the pros to their preferred optical viewfinder.

Sorry if this offends.

[Olegis]

It doesn't offend me, I just don't understand this approach - and your explanation just isn't really explaining anything. I'm not a pro, but I prefer the optical VF. I also prefer shooting in Av mode most of the time - but I don't get negative to my 10D because it has P, Tv, Manual and other modes.

[Cadwell]

Does it do video too? That'd be great 'cos then I could answer "yes" when people come up to me and ask! :lol:

[Cadenza]

are you speaking from experience or hear say like your first post about the 20D grip turning off the camera?

I use the angle finder quite a bit and don't find it "cumbersome"

Evil,

Glad to see you enjoy your equipment. Hope you will
extend the same spirit to others, without feeling threatened.

In fact, I think one solution to having a DSLR with an
articulated live LCD screen could be to develop an accessory
that is a small articulated LCD screen that attaches to the
optical viewfinder's eyecup much like the anglefinder.

It couldn't be that difficult to build. That way, Mr. Pro (or
those who feel their pro-status/emotional security is defined
by their equipment) can maintain the optical integrity of
his/her process; while us P & S geeks can twist the LCD screen
instead of twisting our necks.

A little controversy is always good for business. As the
originator of this thread, I'm surprised that it has received
over 1000 views in less than a day -- all prompted by the
feeble PR announcement by Fuji of this woefully
under-developed (at present time) technology. Imagine the
stir it will cause when a camera gets it right for the first
time. I was too young to be paying attention back then, but
do you "pro's" remember if there was such a commotion in
the photog community back when Minolta introduced AF?

Regards, Cadenza.

[bachscuttler]

Bear with me whilst this A95 P & S Geek sets his shutter speed manually, sets his Aperture manually, sets his focus and exposure points manually, adjusts his ISO setting manually, adjusts his exposure balance manually and peers through his viewfinder to take a great creative shot.

OOPS! I forgot, if you havent got £3k's worth of DSLR, you don't get features like that do you?

I'm buying a Canon DSLR next year when I've saved up enough hard earned cash.
When I get it, will I be allowed to join the elitest rat pack and take the piss out of some of the excellent photographers out there that take damned good photos on the fully featured Compact Digitals out there?

On a more serious note which is why I first came into this thread, I think an LCD on a DSLR would not be a feature taken seriously, (it's more of a gimmick than a serious feature) even when the technology has advanced and can sympathise with Pro's who wouldnt want to be seen holding their SLR at arms length like a snapper at a Christmas Party.

In the meantime, I will stick to my LCD on my A95 as I still see red through the viewfinder after reading some of the condescending comments aimed at us Plebians that can't afford better yet :evil:

[AzzKicker]

I agree, Previewing is crap. Its for n00bs who dont know how a camera should really be used :)...


LCD can play tricks on you if you arent careful. And they normally dont show a good representation of how the color or pics will turn out.

[Olegis]

You're missing the whole point of the discussion. Nobody talked about faithful exposure / colors reproduction.

[FlyingPete]

Aside from all the arguing about P&S's and SLR's have preview screens, I understand that it will actually not be possible on a Canon DSLR with current technology due to the way the CMOS sensor works. All the compact digicams with preview screens use CCD's, not CMOS.

The issue with CMOS as I understand it, it that it behaves a lot more like film, and it is difficult to take quick samples off it in a rapid fashion as seem on a preview screen, unless it was displayed at a relatively slow frame rate such as 8fps or 5fps.

Canon has 'perfected' CMOS, why don't they put them in compact digicams???

Then again, I might be completely wrong.

[FlyingPete]

You're missing the whole point of the discussion. Nobody talked about faithful exposure / colors reproduction.

You will never get that on any inbuilt preview screen.

[Olegis]

You will never get that on any inbuilt preview screen.

You're absolutely right. I wasn't talking about that. I was referring to the expanded flexibility of the camera which would allow me to COMPOSE in all kinds of situations involving shooting from strange angles and positions.

[bachscuttler]

I agree, Previewing is crap. Its for n00bs who dont know how a camera should really be used :)...
You probaly have a good point there, but everyone has to start somewhere, and I wouldn't dream of buying a DSLR until I have learned how to use a camera properly first.

I consider DSLR's to be 'real' cameras for the want of a better expression and don't think technology designed to aid the inexperienced should be incorporated into them. The money and R & D could be utilised better on other areas.
They do have their uses though for getting good ground level macro shots for instance. Beats digging a trench and jumping in it :lol:
Other than that I tend to use the viewfinder and full manual settings instead of all the scene modes and auto settings etc that seem to be available even on some DSLR's.

[karusel]

I would have hated the live LCD preview on an SLR, and somehow I really seriously doubt there will be in the near future one made for the EOS 1 line...

However, if I may take a leap into the future, I could see a use for the following setup:
-SLR camera with live preview
-live preview signal transmitter
-bluetooth like VR mono-goggle receiver
-pocketwizard

See where I'm getting at? This would be cool, while the swivel-on-a-DSLR would be totaly consumerlike and thusly, but not just thusly, as cool as a big fat fly buzzing around in your bedroom at 4 a.m.

[FlyingPete]

bluetooth like VR mono-goggle receiver

OK, now we are talking :lol:

[kawter2]

I think it is a waste to put the engineering efforts into a viewfinder when they could be working on better sensors at a lower cost.

I think before this I would like to see a dSlr that can also take film... My guess will be that the Nikon F6 will be the first to do this (a fully interchangeable digital back for it)

[FlyingPete]

I think it is a waste to put the engineering efforts into a viewfinder when they could be working on better sensors at a lower cost.

I think before this I would like to see a dSlr that can also take film... My guess will be that the Nikon F6 will be the first to do this (a fully interchangeable digital back for it)

Do you mean optical viewfinder or preview screen? I doubt much more effort is going into optical viewfinders, I believe the 20D had a better matt screen than its predecessor, but that is about it.

There was some talk a few years ago about a film style cartridge that had a CCD on it that you could put into a film SLR. There were a number of issues, the first being, you needed a specific type for each model of camera, and the second it was not a full frame sensor, so you had to remember that only the middle of the image in the viewfinder was actually being recorded.

[kawter2]

Do you mean optical viewfinder or preview screen?

I was refering to the "First live LCD preview"


There was some talk a few years ago about a film style cartridge that had a CCD on it that you could put into a film SLR. There were a number of issues, the first being, you needed a specific type for each model of camera, and the second it was not a full frame sensor, so you had to remember that only the middle of the image in the viewfinder was actually being recorded.

I understand, that is why I think it will be great when full frame dSlr's can swap some things out and take standard 35mm film. It will happen, it is just a matter of time

[Jon]

So . . . does anyone remember the SpeedFinder for the original F-1? Same idea, and an example of what we've lost in the retreat from cameras with interchangable pentaprisms. I wanted one, but at a couple of hundred it was too rich for my grad student blood.

[FlyingPete]

I was refering to the "First live LCD preview"

Yes, then I agree entirely.

I understand, that is why I think it will be great when full frame dSlr's can swap some things out and take standard 35mm film. It will happen, it is just a matter of time

You would not believe the amount of times I am asked if my 20D takes film as well!

[FlyingPete]

So . . . does anyone remember the SpeedFinder for the original F-1? Same idea, and an example of what we've lost in the retreat from cameras with interchangable pentaprisms. I wanted one, but at a couple of hundred it was too rich for my grad student blood.

And interchangeable screens as well, had those on my OM-1. I do know of people who hate the LCD preview so much on the compacts, but still love what the camera can do, so they attach a range finder to the top, ususally in the hot shoe!

[evilenglishman]

I'm buying a Canon DSLR next year when I've saved up enough hard earned cash.
When I get it, will I be allowed to join the elitest rat pack and take the piss out of some of the excellent photographers out there that take damned good photos on the fully featured Compact Digitals out there?
if you buy a rebel then the answer is no :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Mogwyth]

Surely all that realy counts is the end product not the tool(s) you use. People take pictures not cameras. All this gear snobbery is just stupid. I can't realy imagine all you top end camera owners not buying a camera that was the DSLR you needed/wanted if it had a feature more commonly found in a P&S. It's just a tool, what matters is that it does what you want, not that it does other things.

Oh I am not giong to buy the new FF 22mp 10 fps noiseless up to iso 6400 canon for a £1000, its got a live preview screen as well as a normal viewfinder. I am sure.

[phili1]

I agree about the viewfinder being better, except for macro , flower photography, I would love to mbe able to use the LCD.

[phili1]

They came put a mini Camera in the prisim. The lens sends it to a mirror which sends it to the eye piece, what about a mini camera that send it to the LCD.

[kawter2]

Surely all that realy counts is the end product not the tool(s) you use. People take pictures not cameras. All this gear snobbery is just stupid. I can't realy imagine all you top end camera owners not buying a camera that was the DSLR you needed/wanted if it had a feature more commonly found in a P&S. It's just a tool, what matters is that it does what you want, not that it does other things.

Oh I am not giong to buy the new FF 22mp 10 fps noiseless up to iso 6400 canon for a £1000, its got a live preview screen as well as a normal viewfinder. I am sure.



My beef is that it is a waste of engineering time and efforts to develop the preview screen when there SEVERAL other areas they could improve on.


I dont think anyone here would refuse to buy if it had one, but I think everyone would prefer to see development in the essential areas

[bachscuttler]

if you buy a rebel then the answer is no :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
God Darn It. I'll just have to save for another 2 years extra then! :D :D :D :D :D

[pradeep1]

Someone lock this thread. The same points are being argued in circles. :rolleyes:

1 + 2 = 3 and 3 - 2 = 1, so we are all in agreement, right. :p

[phili1]

I agree with the optical view finder that is why I swiched fro my G3 to the 20D, I missed it.

But they can very easy put a small camera (sensor) to pick up what the mirror sees and transmits it to the LCD. No change in the sensor, no change in the mirror just something in the prisim to pick it up and transmit it.

Now think about what you have to do with macro shots. You have to get into positions that god did not intend our bodies to do to view what we are shooting.

I think it would be a good addition.

[sdommin]

LCD can play tricks on you if you arent careful. And they normally dont show a good representation of how the color or pics will turn out.

Right. Thank goodness an optical viewfinder will show you exactly how your shot is going to come out!!

[photog]

I find it more difficult to get a fine focus on an LCD. Besides, the SLRs optical viewfinder has a certain "intimacy" and involvment that reminds me of my beloved F1 of 30 year acquaintance.

[ron chappel]

Mmm what is going on?I'm typing away and suddenly the whole page dissapears with my post!
How i hate computers

As i was saying -i can't see what the funagative feelings are about.How can live preview make your camera worse? Just use the viewfinder-they'll allways have those
Personally i want a swiveling LCD AND movie mode-no matter how cheap it is.Any capability in that area is better than none!

[pcasciola]

There is only one thing I miss about my Coolpix 5700 since I got my 20D, and that's the electronic LCD viewfinder in addition to the LCD swivel/preview screen. I guess there are always tradeoffs, but having the EVF really makes a lot of things easier by using the various overlays that are available. Instead of having to remove my eye from the viewfinder to preview a shot, check ISO, WB or other setting not available through the viewfinder like I have to do with the 20D, I could pick viewing modes that would show me those settings overlayed in the viewfinder all the time, and even preview the last shot in the upper left corner while still tracking your subject. I could also navigate the menus through the viewfinder. Everything available on the external LCD was available through the viewfinder. That might not seem that important, until you are trying to do read that LCD in bright sunlight and can barely see the external LCD, or when it is dark an you have to fish for the LED backlight button.

Another thing an LCD viewfinder is better for is people with eyesight problems. I am farsighted and struggle to view the external LCD and LED screens without my glasses, but through an electronic viewfinder I can see everything just fine.

[Cadenza]

I find it more difficult to get a fine focus on an LCD. Besides, the SLRs optical viewfinder has a certain "intimacy" and involvment that reminds me of my beloved F1 of 30 year acquaintance.

And if you go even further back, people used
goose grease instead of lotion for protection
against sunburn. :-)

[phili1]

I wear glasses and switched to the mini glasses and let them hang on my nose so I can use the viewfinder without them and still able to see LCD if I want.

[Cadenza]

I thought I'd revive this four year old thread, full of predictions that are now becoming true.

Live LCD DSLR, check. Movie mode in DSLR, check... now, when do you guys think we'll have a live articulated LCD screen DSLR model on the market?

[pradeep1]

** Oops, I forgot to look at the OP date, this is a resurrected thread that I already had responded to and just as Cadenza says, it is funny to see old predictions now coming true **

It is funny that whenever these types of interesting technologies are introduced to the dSLRs, people spurn them, although I think a articulated live view LCDs like those found on the G-series (G1-G6) are really useful for working in tight spots. I say, bring on the technology, and allow us to use digital to its full potential.

[Nicky D]

** Oops, I forgot to look at the OP date, this is a resurrected thread that I already had responded to and just as Cadenza says, it is funny to see old predictions now coming true **

It is funny that whenever these types of interesting technologies are introduced to the dSLRs, people spurn them, although I think a articulated live view LCDs like those found on the G-series (G1-G6) are really useful for working in tight spots. I say, bring on the technology, and allow us to use digital to its full potential.


I say bring them on. There have been plenty of times where I wished that I had that feature.

[racketman]

HD Video has arrived anyway!

[griptape]

now, when do you guys think we'll have a live articulated LCD screen DSLR model on the market?
The Olympus E3 has one, been out since late 2007.