Are these just snaps?

[Smokey911]

Hiya, I went to knowsley the other day with a friends Canon 100-400 l. I've put a few pics up in the animal and the bird section and got very few comments. Just wondering if they're lol too point and shoot. Is there anything i can improve on?

1
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/9525165f.jpg

2
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1619.jpg

3
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1648.jpg

4
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1704.jpg

5
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1756.jpg

6
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1992.jpg

7
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1888.jpg

8
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/IMG_1844.jpg

The rest are here http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/

[Flo]

They appear to be over exposed.....I think some of them can be saved;) Some contrast with the levels..crops...

[Flo]

I played:confused:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/IMG_1844.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/IMG_1704.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/emmaloudawg/9525165f.jpg

[Smokey911]

Cheers for the advice. prolly need to learn and practice more with manual. I used "P" setting alot cause i needed to be quick

[midnight_rider]

These are great subjects and nice angles. They just seem to blend together. Exposure is the key for any photograph. Just be certain about where you meter watch your exposure. The composition is very nice though.

[LeuceDeuce]

I messed around with your elephants to add impact to the photo.

[Speedie]

For me the elephant one is the best of the bunch. Very nice job there LeuceDeuce.

[Smokey911]

Thanks for the tips guys. I get the p and p, i can prolly do that. Not wanting to sound too dumb, but can someone give me some tips on metering pls

[furiousbox]

Thanks for the tips guys. I get the p and p, i can prolly do that. Not wanting to sound too dumb, but can someone give me some tips on metering pls

I found this thread to be a great help:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=335569

[LeuceDeuce]

Thanks for the tips guys. I get the p and p, i can prolly do that. Not wanting to sound too dumb, but can someone give me some tips on metering pls

I just pulled up the first tiger, the elephants, and the owl... Each of these are exposed very well imho. The histogram shows minimal (or no) clipping on either end, and the exposure uses nearly the entire available tonal range. The issue is not with your metering, but you took some of these shots under very flat lighting (the elephants for sure). Probably overcast with sunny breaks.

That said, there are very few photographers that are going to post images in the wildlife forums directly from their camera and generate ooh's and ahh's. You need to do a little post work on them. I think that's all Gail and I were trying to show you. Your pictures are fine, they're just not done.

[LeuceDeuce]

I'll give you a quick point or two on each image. This is my opinion only, and you will no doubt get different suggestions from others.

1. I'm not a fan of images of animals taken from the rear, but this one is not bad.
2. Cropped too tight. Let's see the whole animal.
3. Too soft, clipped tail.
4. Too soft.
5. Very nice capture. Best of show for me.
6. Cropped too high, clipped tail.
7. Cropped too low, clipped wing. I would crop the bird higher in the frame, and give it a little bit of space to fly into.
8. Very nice capture. Great placement of subject, space to move into. I would clone out that bright dot upper left corner.

All images need post work.

[Walczak Photo]

Hey Smokey,
As a zoo shooter myself I'd like to make a few suggestions if I may.

First let me say that the shot of the elephants is -BY FAR- the best shot here. With some post processing, I'd have that one framed and hanging on the wall. Most of the other shots really aren't that impressive (sorry) but the elephant shot is a keeper.

Now with that, the thing that makes the elephant shot work and the other shots NOT work is simply "the pose". Animals are in many ways worse than children in that they never do something cute or interesting when you actually want them too! LOL!!! One of the biggest mistakes that I see with people who try to shoot at a zoo is they approach it from a "tourist" perspective...in other words, they run around with their camera and try to shoot as many animals as they can in one day. What I would suggest here is that for your next trip to the zoo, plan to spend the majority of your time concentrating on only a few select groups of critters...and of course, plan ahead. For example my last trip to the Cleveland Zoo, I spent 2 hours just chasing the orangutans and since they were right around the corner I also spent an hour chasing the fishing cats. After that I had planned to shoot the koalas but since they were sleeping I headed over to the lorikeets instead and spent another hour there. 4 hours on just 3 groups of critters and I got some great shots in all three cases...you get the idea. It's all about patience :D.

Second to that since you asked about metering what I would suggest is instead of trying to figure all that stuff out on the fly, try Aperture Priority Mode instead and let the camera handle the shutter speed. In most cases when I'm shooting critters (at the zoo or elsewhere), I'm usually in AP with the lens pretty much wide open (unless it's really sunny outside and then I stop down appropriately). Just keep an eye on the shutter speed and if you need it to be a little fast, bump your ISO up a little. By letting the camera do some of the work for you, you can spend more effort simply concentrating on the critters instead of the camera. When it comes to shooting critters if you're standing there fiddling with the camera, chances are you've already missed the shot. Most of the time when I'm shooting critters I have the camera in AP, aperture wide open and all I'm doing is watching the animal thru the view finder with my finger on the shutter button waiting for the moment to arrive.

I would also add that with digital you don't always have to get "perfect exposure every time". In the case of your shots here, yea, they're a little bright but with most of them I think a simple levels adjustment would fix that in a jiffy. The way I think of this is simply I'd rather have a really great pose where the exposure is a bit off and fix it later as apposed to having a perfect exposure of a really boring shot. Shoot in RAW, watch your histograms and you'll be off to a good start. To quote an old musical expression, "the rest can be fixed in the mix".

Third...get in closer. You said you were shooting with a 100-400mm lens but most of these almost look like they were taken with a wide angle. If you really want people to go "Wow!" over critter shots, nice tight shots of the face or at least "head and shoulder" shots usually work best and if that's not possible just get in really tight on the whole animal. With most of your shots here you have a lot of "space" around the critters that really doesn't add anything at all to the shots. Again with the elephants though you pretty much filled the frame and even there you could even crop in tighter to where it's just the elephant's faces.

Also I generally find that with most animals, shots often work better when you have eye contact. In your shot of the tiger for example, if he had of been looking at you it would have made for a much better shot. Same thing with the lion shot in #2...she's cleaning herself...so what? A nice tight shot of that beautiful face though with those eyes gazing right at you...now that would have been a nice shot. This kind of goes back to my first two suggestions...sometimes you just have to wait for it and be ready when the moment happens. Of course being shameless about making silly noises helps too! LOL!!!

Okies...just some thoughts to ponder. I know these things don't always work for everyone, but that's usually the way I approach zoo and critter shots.

Good Luck!
Jim

[Smokey911]

Thats awesome advice Walczak thanks! i guess i was following advice id had from other shots about the rule of thirds and framing etc. As for the waiting ill try a trip on my own sometime i think. My girl friend would kill me if i spent 2 hours waiting for one shot lol. I do have a tighter shot of the elephants and maybe some other better shots, although not so many with the poses you spoke of. Ill post them below, after trying a lil p and p and croping. If you could let me know what you think id be really greatful

Also how do you cope with fencing when u shot at the zoo? the tiger shots are through a wire fence. And trying to shoot through glass is a nightmere

1
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/5bd40ca7.jpg

2
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/a465e8f9.jpg

3
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/e0dbb561.jpg

4
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/205bea6b.jpg

5
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/5252a930.jpg

6
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/4d556bd9.jpg

7
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll165/Smokey911uk/Knowsley%20May%202008/b664a271.jpg

[chauncey]

What are your priorities?

[Smokey911]

What are your priorities?

U'll have to excuse my ignorance but do you mean, what am i looking from from the shot or settings on the camera?

[midnitejam]

Priorities?
An image is usually successful when the combination of several factors/variables are congruent and in harmony. Usually one or more of the elements/variables will be more priority than another, depending upon individual tastes of the viewer.

The composition (ROT's) is the priority factor for some.
The actual subject content is the dominant priority for others.
And then there is the mechanics of the camera (technical quality of the reproduction).

For an image to be pleasing to me, not all of these 3 major components have to be applied equally as long as one or more of these variables will over compensate for the weakers.

With the people who favor wild life, portraits, and landscapes it seems to me after reviewing many critiques that the Subject component is the more important factor. portraits of ugly people or ugly and insignificant objects/scenes will not get their vote regardless of how technically sound they are.

Still there are others (myself included) with whom the subject matter is not that important as long as exposure, sharpness, saturation, and composition are strong enough to compensate for a poor subject.

The point I wanted to make to you is this......
The compositions in your original submissions are very strong. The subjects are very strong also. As in your elephant shot, when all the components are equally strong, the most appealing subject will win the vote (sell the most copies). In this case, the elephant shot has it. IMHO, the edits were strong improvements. In every instance the edits were vast improvements.

Priorities? IMHO, the priority is the pursuit of that perfect capture when all the components come together to create a work worthy of art.

PS: Do a Search on this forum to find comments by Walczek Photo, LeucieDeucie, Flo, and Chauncy. You can learn much from analyzing their comments to determine their take on varied images. There are others as well who are very knowlegable and who also offer explainations and how-to fixes

[Walczak Photo]

Hey Smokey,
Well first I'd like to say that I -think- what midnightjam is saying is to think about "what the shot is about" when he's talking about priorities. I could certainly be wrong here...and Jam, please feel free to correct me if I am...but especially with zoo shots when I'm looking thru the view finder I ask myself one question, "What's this shot about?". Is it about the walls or cage the animal is in? Is it about the other people watching the animal? Is it about the animal in it's habitat at the zoo? -Or- is it simply about the animal? What you want the shot to convey will pretty much dictate how you frame your shot.

In my case I'm mainly interested in what I would consider "animal portraits" so my focus is as I said before, nice tight shots of the animal and especially it's face when I can. On the other hand if I were doing a piece for National Geographic or something where I was trying to document "the eating and mating habits of the Australian Tasmanian Devil", then my approach would be completely different. If I were doing a piece of advertising for a zoo, then the approach would be even different still. Since most of my shots are simply for 8x10's to be framed and sold as prints, all I'm trying to do is take "pretty pictures of pretty critters" and I find that those face shots are usually the images that make people say "Wow!"

Not to highjack your thread but here's an example I recently shot at the nature center where I do volunteer work...



http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1011/mg4455ade3.jpg


I know this is a bit extreme, but I think it should get the point across. There's no doubt about what the subject matter here is! This shot is pretty much very direct and to the point. Again though if I were trying to document something about red tailed hawks in the wild...maybe something like the loss of habitat, this approach would clearly be inappropriate. Simply think about what you want your shots to convey...again "What is this shot about?" and then just take it from there.

Now as for as your comment about following the rule of thirds...that does actually still apply. The difference is that when you're doing a tight focus such as just the animals face or even a head & shoulders shot, with most animals "the eyes" become the central focus (just as it is with humans) and those are where you apply the rule of thirds.

Also in regards to bringing the girl friend or family...agreed...leave them at home when you're doing a "photography day" at the zoo. I have days where I go with my wife and while I do take the camera, it's more about doing the tourist thing and "spending time with my wife at the zoo". If you have kids...forget it. Don't even tell them your going! LOL!!! I'm sure that some how it defies the law of averages, but it's inevitable that the moment you get a critter to look at you for that one in a million shot you're going to hear "Daddy...I gotta go to the bathroom", LOL!!! If you're planning a day of serious shooting then think of it as a job...you don't usually take the wife and kids with you to work in the morning. When I do serious shooting, I almost always go alone (although occasionally with another photographer). I simply get more "work" done that way.

Coping with fencing, cage bars and dirty windows...
My friend, you've just hit upon one of the single greatest challenges we zoo shooters face! LOL!!! A limited Depth Of Field is your best friend here but often it really depends on your position relative to the animals position and the bars/fence. To make it as simple as I can, try to be as close to the fence as you can with the animal back away from the fence a bit and in most cases if you shoot with a wide aperture (shallow DOF) you don't usually see the fence or bars in the foreground. If the animal is right next to the fence...forget it. No way I know of to blur out the fence when they are that close except to do A LOT of tedious cloning on Photoshop.

It's also important to accept that sometimes there's just no easy way to work around these obstacles as well. In the case of the Cleveland MetroParks Zoo for example, I've been trying to get a shot of their grey wolves at their "Wolf Wilderness" exhibit for 2 years now and I have yet to get even a decent shot. In this case the glass viewing windows are not only dirty and heavily distorted, but are also tinted which is like having a neutral density filter stuck in front of the camera. On top of that, most of the time the wolves are simply hiding up in the woods away from the exhibit viewing area anyways. There simply isn't a good angle from inside the viewing area to get any really good shots...and believe me...I've tried! LOL!!! Very simply in situations such as this, sometimes it's just better to adjust your plans and move on to a different critter instead.

Now on the second set of shots you posted, again I love the elephants, but I think having the trunks in the center of the shot here would have worked better...there are times when it's "ok" to break the rule of thirds :D. The Tiger shot would have been really nice -if- his face had of been in focus. It looks like your auto focus locked on to the blades of grass right in front of him. The only thing I can suggest here is to simply shoot several shots in a row and refocus each time...if you shoot 10 shots for example there's a better chance of getting a good keeper.

The lioness is pretty decent but what I don't like here is the backlighting. It looks like this was shot pretty much mid-afternoon and the lighting is pretty harsh to begin with. If you can't aproach from a different angle, sometimes it's better to wait a little while and come back later after the animal has moved to a better position.

The giraffe is nice and sharp and this would have been a really cool shot -if- he had of been facing you. Doesn't have to be a head on shot but here he was clearly looking away from you.

I do like the second otter shot...that's really cute :D. The other two shots though...I guess it must be spring (LOL!).

One last tip for the day...know a little about the animals you plan to shoot before you plan your next trip! As in the wild, many animals may be more active in the early morning or late evening while others may be active all day long. Knowing when the animals are most likely to be active will help you plan your day accordingly...in other words, you don't want to plan to spend 2 hours watching a couple of African Lions sleep all day! LOL!!! This same mentality also applies to the weather as well...big cats are more likely to lay around on really hot sunny days where some monkeys and lemurs may be more active in the same conditions. Also with zoo's it's worth while to call and find out what the "feeding schedule" is. Most zoo critters are usually very active when the keeper comes around with their food...they -KNOW- when it's lunch time! If you get there about an hour or so before the keeper shows up chances are you'll get better shots than the animal just laying around.

Alrighty...I think that's it for now.
Peace,
Jim

[Flo]

Jim, I love your posts;)

[Smokey911]

Well Midnitejam and jim, what can i say. Thank you every much for your inside and advice. Ill make sure i re-read this post b4 i go out again.

I did go and have a look at some of your posts after your 1st lot of advice and you have some stunning photos. I'm into birds of pray myself and love falconry. So i was really impressed with the shot you posted here

Thanks again guys

[Walczak Photo]

I'm into birds of pray myself and love falconry. So i was really impressed with the shot you posted here

I should probably reiterate that the shot of the red tailed hawk there was taken of a captive bird at the nature center where I do volunteer work. In fact in this particular birds case...well...she's basically blind, so I can get right in her face with the camera and it doesn't bother her. Also, I've been working with this bird for 2 years now and she knows me. This particular hawk is used for education programs because she has a very calm and mild temperament...the same can NOT be said even of other red tails in captivity.

I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm a little "privileged" in that I can get shots like this and that I can get so close to some of the animals that I work with. That said, as a word of caution to anyone concerned, interested or following this post, please do NOT try this yourself unless you are experienced in working with these animals and certainly do not try getting this close to a wild animal!!! I don't want to be responsible for anyone getting themselves bitten or injured and I certainly don't want to see anyone cause any harm to an animal or bird (captive or otherwise) just for the sake of a picture.

I probably should have mentioned that in my other post...

Peace,
Jim

[Smokey911]

Ive got a one or two close ups from a falconry centre i visit and ive done a lil falconry myself so i have an idea what they're like! lol but thanks for the warning :)