Why spend money on Profoto vs Alien Bees?

[M Powered]

Okay, lets see if I don't get flamed off the board. I'm using cheapo Alien Bees and Photoflex strobes and softboxes, for my use they do a great job, especially with PW's.

Now question is why would I need to upgrade to Profoto's or Broncolor? Or any other high end strobe ?

[Double Negative]

Quite honestly, AB mods kinda, well, suck. They're cheap. On the softboxes, for example, you can have hot spots (they don't have internal baffles/diffusers).

The AB strobes are actually pretty decent. They can however, be very inconsistent between pops at lowered power settings. You usually compete with the sun in your shots, so I assume near full power? Might only show itself in more controlled studio shots also...

[SooK]

One of the reasons is that, if you are a pro and you travel a lot, you can rent them in almost every big city. So if you know how to handle them its a plus.

Some people like monolights, other likes the pack system.

Profoto has a lot of accesoires available for their lights, the zoom reflectors, the HUGE umbrellas, you name it.

I'm sure there are a lot other reasons that people buy them, but i would not suggest buying them if you dont spend at least 23hours a day with photography :)

[M Powered]

One of the reasons is that, if you are a pro and you travel a lot, you can rent them in almost every big city. So if you know how to handle them its a plus.

Some people like monolights, other likes the pack system.

Profoto has a lot of accesoires available for their lights, the zoom reflectors, the HUGE umbrellas, you name it.

I'm sure there are a lot other reasons that people buy them, but i would not suggest buying them if you dont spend at least 23hours a day with photography :)

Accessories, the majority of accessories you can buy after market or on ebay. Unless you shoot film, I really can't see the cost justification.

In many respects I see this more of a "branded" thing. I wear Versace you wear Gap.

Like I'm looking at the portable battery pack from Broncolor, $2000-3000 !! Vagabond II unit 299.00 WTF !?

Does this industry look down on the professionals who use Alien Bees vs high end strobe names? Apparently they do.

[Double Negative]

^ Well, to a point you get what you pay for. For day-in, day-out use the cheap stuff just doesn't hold up and/or give the best results. Of course there's brand markup, etc.

[M Powered]

^ Well, to a point you get what you pay for. For day-in, day-out use the cheap stuff just doesn't hold up and/or give the best results. Of course there's brand markup, etc.

So far no complaints on durability of AB or photoflex, throw them on the sand, chuck it in the trunk, etc, etc holds up pretty well so far :)

[DocFrankenstein]

Why do you have a 70-200 2.8 IS instead of 75-300ish.

The 75-300 is 250 bucks... and the L IS is 1.5 grand.

What's the reason? Both make a picture...

Why do pros choose canon with nikon over pentax, sony and olympus?

It's pretty much the same with profoto/broncolor. The light is better and they don't break as often... the system is better as well.

[DocFrankenstein]

So far no complaints on durability of AB or photoflex, throw them on the sand, chuck it in the trunk, etc, etc holds up pretty well so far :)Try firing them on full power every time right after they recharge for 2 hours in a row.

But if you like the bees - keep em and save yourself ten grand by not shooting bron.

Yet, there's are reasons why those stupid LA fashion photographers spend the extra money on the lights. There's a difference... you just might not perceive it until you shoot with them.

If you want to try, profotos are easy to rent. Broncolors are a tad more difficult, but you can still do it.

[JakPot]

Quite honestly, AB mods kinda, well, suck. They're cheap. On the softboxes, for example, you can have hot spots (they don't have internal baffles/diffusers).


my large AB foldable softbox does have an internal diffuser. Which softbox are you referring to?

[M Powered]

Why do you have a 70-200 2.8 IS instead of 75-300ish.

The 75-300 is 250 bucks... and the L IS is 1.5 grand.

What's the reason? Both make a picture...

Why do pros choose canon with nikon over pentax, sony and olympus?

It's pretty much the same with profoto/broncolor. The light is better and they don't break as often... the system is better as well.

All of my beach shoots are done at full power, and last on average 4-6 hours. No problems yet (knock on wood)

Just because you spend more money on something doesn't mean it will perform better... Take my camera for an example :p AF issues which was recently resolved with the current firm ware release, almost a year later.

PS your lens analogy is not a good one :p

[M Powered]

Try firing them on full power every time right after they recharge for 2 hours in a row.

But if you like the bees - keep em and save yourself ten grand by not shooting bron.

Yet, there's are reasons why those stupid LA fashion photographers spend the extra money on the lights. There's a difference... you just might not perceive it until you shoot with them.

If you want to try, profotos are easy to rent. Broncolors are a tad more difficult, but you can still do it.

Yea, most spend thousands of dollars on lights just to change the entire image in post. ;)

[DocFrankenstein]

PS your lens analogy is not a good one :p
That's what you think until you shoot enough with profoto.

[RichNY]

Accessories, the majority of accessories you can buy after market or on ebay. Unless you shoot film, I really can't see the cost justification.

In many respects I see this more of a "branded" thing. I wear Versace you wear Gap.

Like I'm looking at the portable battery pack from Broncolor, $2000-3000 !! Vagabond II unit 299.00 WTF !?

Does this industry look down on the professionals who use Alien Bees vs high end strobe names? Apparently they do.

This isn't a branded thing- it is a quality and durability thing. The difference between Profoto and AB is on the same level as comparing your 1D Mark III to a Rebel XTi- sure they both take pictures but there is a major difference between them.

Compare the way Profoto accessories mount to strobes for example. Reflectors and speed rings can be adjusted by clamp forward or towards the rear of the strobe. I believe every other mfg. requires modifiers to be at a fixed distance from the tip of the lamp.

It just takes one day of using the two systems to get an understanding of the differences; to those who have never shot with a high end strobe it is going to be as difficult to appreciate as the finer features of a 1 series camera to a DSLR newbie.

[gryphonslair99]

Okay, lets see if I don't get flamed off the board. I'm using cheapo Alien Bees and Photoflex strobes and softboxes, for my use they do a great job, especially with PW's.

Now question is why would I need to upgrade to Profoto's or Broncolor? Or any other high end strobe ?

Use them 4-6 hours a day 4-5 days a week for 25 years then call me and tell me how they held up. If you are not shooting on that schedule and they do the job then do you need to upgrade? That one you have to answer.

[M Powered]

Use them 4-6 hours a day 4-5 days a week for 25 years then call me and tell me how they held up. If you are not shooting on that schedule and they do the job then do you need to upgrade? That one you have to answer.

So Profoto are like Mowen Faucets? Buy it for looks, buy it for life ;)

[RichNY]

One doesn't need to be shooting 4-6 hours/day for 4-5 days a week to benefit from better quality strobes. There is also a lot of middle ground between ABs and Profoto/Brons. Elinchrom, Dyna-Lite, and Hensels are all good candidates.

[JustMyLuck]

I was in the same situation. I got about $3K of equipment on AB. I didn't want to buy profoto or the other pro equipment because they were soooo expensive. AB was OK but lighting wasn't very consisent. I end up getting the profoto. It was very expensive and if you take care of it, you should get about 10,000 pops before you have to replace the light bulb. Thank god for that because they cost about $300 or so to replace but they are very consisent on power level and light. Good luck

[Faolan]

You pay for quality. The more money you spend you end up generally with better the equipment but more importantly the ease of use. For exampe the difference between the Elinchrom FX/BX series of lighst and the RX series is not just power or power range, it's also the remote control features of the RX series that really help sell the lights.

Why does this matter? Consider a light on a boom, with conventional lights you would have to raise/lower the boom each time and make a speculative guess as to the original height to adjust the power. The RX controls the power remotely saving you time and guess work.

Little things like that make a big difference in perceived quality and time saved. It's the same for dSLRs. The interface of the 1 series is more refined than the xxD series of cameras add into the equation the dual controls which helps steady the camera you see the benefits.

[Gentleman Villain]

The real advantage of high cost studio lighting gear is even coverage of light.

People often think it's a matter of durability, color consistency, output consistency etc. Those things are definitely important, but the real advantage of high end gear is determined by quality of light. Even coverage of light and smooth transitions between light and dark simply cannot be obtained with lower cost brands. It's also something that must be experienced to be understood.

IF a photographer has never experienced working with high end gear on a long term basis then he/she will probably not be able to see what even coverage of light looks like. That's not a put-down or anything...it's just a matter of experience. Personally, I didn't know the difference until I assisted for a photographer that had a studio filled with Broncolor. Once I worked with excellent gear on a daily basis for many years, I was able to see the differences between quality of light. But before that, I was perfectly happy using my low end gear and couldn't tell the difference.

If a photographer is shooting in a style that doesn't require even coverage of light or smooth gradations between light and dark, then it really doesn't matter if he/she has lower end gear. Alien bees or speedlites etc would work just fine. If there are any color issues or output issues then that can usually be fixed pretty easily in PP.

But, even coverage of light and smooth gradations cannot really be fixed in PP. High end retouchers will use D&B to try and emulate the effects of high end lighting...but this is time consuming and often results in a look that starts to appear unnatural. It would be better if the photographer had just used high end gear in the first place.

Final thought: just because a photographer has equipment capable of producing even coverage and smooth transitions doesn't mean his/her photography will show it...It takes skill to know how to manipulate the gear. I've found that many people shooting Elinchrom etc don't even know what their gear is really capable of doing and they often use it in a way that doesn't portray the true potential. So in the end, it's still a matter of "seeing" the light. High end gear can provide the quality of light, but it still takes an experienced photographer to be able to use the gear correctly. There are a lot of people using expensive gear that aren't taking better photographs than somebody using low cost gear.

[bobbyz]

You pay for quality. The more money you spend you end up generally with better the equipment but more importantly the ease of use. For exampe the difference between the Elinchrom FX/BX series of lighst and the RX series is not just power or power range, it's also the remote control features of the RX series that really help sell the lights.

Why does this matter? Consider a light on a boom, with conventional lights you would have to raise/lower the boom each time and make a speculative guess as to the original height to adjust the power. The RX controls the power remotely saving you time and guess work.

Little things like that make a big difference in perceived quality and time saved. It's the same for dSLRs. The interface of the 1 series is more refined than the xxD series of cameras add into the equation the dual controls which helps steady the camera you see the benefits.


AB also has a wired remote control to do all that and their new cyber commander thing will let you control ights over the RF link.

[M Powered]

The real advantage of high cost studio lighting gear is even coverage of light.

People often think it's a matter of durability, color consistency, output consistency etc. Those things are definitely important, but the real advantage of high end gear is determined by quality of light. Even coverage of light and smooth transitions between light and dark simply cannot be obtained with lower cost brands. It's also something that must be experienced to be understood.

IF a photographer has never experienced working with high end gear on a long term basis then he/she will probably not be able to see what even coverage of light looks like. That's not a put-down or anything...it's just a matter of experience. Personally, I didn't know the difference until I assisted for a photographer that had a studio filled with Broncolor. Once I worked with excellent gear on a daily basis for many years, I was able to see the differences between quality of light. But before that, I was perfectly happy using my low end gear and couldn't tell the difference.

If a photographer is shooting in a style that doesn't require even coverage of light or smooth gradations between light and dark, then it really doesn't matter if he/she has lower end gear. Alien bees or speedlites etc would work just fine. If there are any color issues or output issues then that can usually be fixed pretty easily in PP.

But, even coverage of light and smooth gradations cannot really be fixed in PP. High end retouchers will use D&B to try and emulate the effects of high end lighting...but this is time consuming and often results in a look that starts to appear unnatural. It would be better if the photographer had just used high end gear in the first place.

Final thought: just because a photographer has equipment capable of producing even coverage and smooth transitions doesn't mean his/her photography will show it...It takes skill to know how to manipulate the gear. I've found that many people shooting Elinchrom etc don't even know what their gear is really capable of doing and they often use it in a way that doesn't portray the true potential. So in the end, it's still a matter of "seeing" the light. High end gear can provide the quality of light, but it still takes an experienced photographer to be able to use the gear correctly. There are a lot of people using expensive gear that aren't taking better photographs than somebody using low cost gear.

Strange, I can't seem to find any picture comparisons. Some thing like profoto vs AB

[Gentleman Villain]

Strange, I can't seem to find any picture comparisons. Some thing like profoto vs AB

Yes, that's the 1000% truth - It's almost impossible to find side-by-side comparisons since studio gear is so expensive and there's only a small market that really buys it. Heck, even "low cost" studio gear is pretty darn expensive and only the most serious photographers buy off-camera lighting in the first place. That's the main reason it usually takes first hand experience working with the different types of gear and working in everyday situations to really see the differences in light quality between brands. There's very little information available.

[cdifoto]

People buy more expensive lights because they're making too much money and need a big tax deduction. It's usually after they've run out of expensive lenses and bodies to buy.

[TMR Design]

As others have already discussed, you're dealing with build, durability, materials and construction, consistency of output and color temperature, branded accessories and third party accessory compatibility. The modifiers you have available and the quality of light produced is a very strong consideration as well.

It's not just about a black box that fires a burst of light. Sure, they all do that and some at 10 times the cost of others. Whether someone can justify the cost is another issue.

Professionals tend to buy the tools that will not only do the job but will do it well for years and withstand the wear and tear of daily extended use. They are willing to pay a premium for that. Not everyone needs those tools though.

When you pick up a Profoto head or work with the pack you definitely know you're working with a well built component. Nothing feels flimsy, there is more metal than plastic and it's built like a tank. The packs almost look like rugged military or industrial equipment.

The rocker and rotary switches are of very high quality. The amphenol multi-pin locking connectors on the packs are amazing. The mono lights have this same feel to them. Metal cases, high quality switches, metal swivel mounts that don't slip, and to top it off they have a great method of mounting reflectors, speedrings and modifiers unlike other manufacturers. No light leaks, solid construction, and solid.

The reflectors themselves provide more even light without the classic hot spot that most inexpensive reflectors produce.

Anyway, that's a taste of why someone might choose Profoto or any other high end strobes over an Alien Bee. That's not to say that you should be anything but happy with your Bees if they do what you want and need.

[Philco]

High-end commercial work pays well enough to allow you to buy the pricier gear, so it's a whole other economy compared to your average wedding shooter, for instance. I can't justify the expense for what I do, but if I were shooting for larger publications on a routine basis, going with prophoto would be a no brainer. If, for instance, you're shooting very color sensitive catalog work, the most consistent head will make a difference. I love my bees, and for what I do they're great, but I can see why having a commercial grade kit would be advantageous...not to mention a whole production crew to lug it all around for you.

[RichNY]

High-end commercial work pays well enough to allow you to buy the pricier gear, so it's a whole other economy compared to your average wedding shooter, for instance. I can't justify the expense for what I do, but if I were shooting for larger publications on a routine basis, going with prophoto would be a no brainer. If, for instance, you're shooting very color sensitive catalog work, the most consistent head will make a difference. I love my bees, and for what I do they're great, but I can see why having a commercial grade kit would be advantageous...not to mention a whole production crew to lug it all around for you.

Personally I don't buy into your cost justification argument. If you can cost justify a pair of 5Ds, a 70-200 f/2.8, an 85 f/1.2, and a 35 L for your work you certainly can cost justify another $1k more for professional lights. I'm not attacking your kit or suggesting that they don't meet your needs, but if you need that type of camera and gear for your work I don't think the cost justification argument holds up. If don't consider your work high end commercial then you might as well be shooting it with Rebel or 20D and consumer glass.

[whoadude]

Personally I don't buy into your cost justification argument. If you can cost justify a pair of 5Ds, a 70-200 f/2.8, an 85 f/1.2, and a 35 L for your work you certainly can cost justify another $1k more for professional lights. I'm not attacking your kit or suggesting that they don't meet your needs, but if you need that type of camera and gear for your work I don't think the cost justification argument holds up. If don't consider your work high end commercial then you might as well be shooting it with Rebel or 20D and consumer glass.

For the equipment we are talking about here, the difference is a lot more than $1K.

[Lotto]

For the OP question, if the users have the money, they can choose any brand, or spend THEIR money anyway they like, it's none of my business.

But while we are debating lighting brands, I always have this question: if I grab a stunnng studio shot off the net, can anyone tell me if it's shot with a Prophoto or AB?

[M Powered]

Personally I don't buy into your cost justification argument. If you can cost justify a pair of 5Ds, a 70-200 f/2.8, an 85 f/1.2, and a 35 L for your work you certainly can cost justify another $1k more for professional lights. I'm not attacking your kit or suggesting that they don't meet your needs, but if you need that type of camera and gear for your work I don't think the cost justification argument holds up. If don't consider your work high end commercial then you might as well be shooting it with Rebel or 20D and consumer glass.


From AB > Profoto cost a LITTLE more than just a mere 1k ;)

[M Powered]

For the OP question, if the users have the money, they can choose any brand, or spend THEIR money anyway they like, it's none of my business.

But while we are debating lighting brands, I always have this question: if I grab a stunnng studio shot off the net, can anyone tell me if it's shot with a Prophoto or AB?

You'll be god if you can :)

Lets play....

Tell me what light was used to light this.

http://home.socal.rr.com/mpowered/JESKA2.jpg

[DocFrankenstein]

You'll be god if you can :)

Lets play....

Tell me what light was used to light this.
Uh huh...

But before we play, let's figure out if anybody can read light... at least approximately.

IE: What modifiers used, what ratios, where the hair light, rim light is... etc.

After we get THAT part down, we can play your games.

[Double Negative]

Tell me what light was used to light this.

Just a WAG, but it looks like some sort of beauty dish or ring flash.

[M Powered]

Uh huh...

But before we play, let's figure out if anybody can read light... at least approximately.

IE: What modifiers used, what ratios, where the hair light, rim light is... etc.

After we get THAT part down, we can play your games.

I can usually tell by the shadows as to what light modifier is used.

So I take it you are the most qualified on this subject (based on the responses) lets have you get a crack at the picture and tell us ;)

[DocFrankenstein]

I can usually tell by the shadows as to what light modifier is used.

So I take it you are the most qualified on this subject (based on the responses) lets have you get a crack at the picture and tell us ;)Looks like someone bought the cheap bee ringlight, made a cliche shot of the model hugging her face and then inverted it in post processing... supposedly because it makes the picture "un-boring". There also seems to be a diffusion panel (or a wall) to the left.

Also, the guy doesn't know how to use a lightmeter... or fill light... make your choice.

But most importantly, there's boobs, the model's hot and the MUA did her job... this automatically makes it a good picture... at least in his mind, doesn't it? :)

[awad]

yikes.

[M Powered]

Looks like someone bought the cheap bee ringlight, made a cliche shot of the model hugging her face and then inverted it in post processing... supposedly because it makes the picture "un-boring". There also seems to be a diffusion panel (or a wall) to the left.

Also, the guy doesn't know how to use a lightmeter... or fill light... make your choice.

But most importantly, there's boobs, the model's hot and the MUA did her job... this automatically makes it a good picture... at least in his mind, doesn't it? :)

lol, wow wrong in all assumptions :) , except for one about the model being hot :)

No ring light was used, didn't invert it in post, she was upside down and there was no diffusion panel and there was no MUA :p

Want to play some more? :p

[Yohan Pamudji]

Quite honestly, AB mods kinda, well, suck. They're cheap. On the softboxes, for example, you can have hot spots (they don't have internal baffles/diffusers).

The AB strobes are actually pretty decent. They can however, be very inconsistent between pops at lowered power settings. You usually compete with the sun in your shots, so I assume near full power? Might only show itself in more controlled studio shots also...

Agreed on both counts. I have White Lightning strobes, but the same issues apply as to ABs. AB mod quality isn't necessarily a problem since you can get 3rd party mods that fit on ABs. The inconsistency is a problem though. I've shot at very low power with these lights (How do people shoot at high power in the studio without stopping down their lenses to minimum aperture? Must be using some fierce light-reducing mods!), and although the differences are only 1/3-2/3 of a stop from shot to shot it's still more work to be done in post and would be nice to not have to deal with. I've also noticed that color balance doesn't stay the same at all output levels. Those are two things that the more expensive brands offer that may or may not be worth your money: consistent output levels and light temps. For the occasional shooter like me, definitely not worth it. If you do this all day every day, then the extra thousands are a small price to pay for less post work, predictable results, etc.

[DocFrankenstein]

lol, wow wrong in all assumptions :) , except for one about the model being hot :)

No ring light was used, didn't invert it in post, she was upside down and there was no diffusion panel and there was no MUA :p

Want to play some more? :p
And it wasn't shot with a bee?
And she's not wearing makeup?
And the eyes aren't photoshopped to white while increasing color saturation?

Do tell me how you lit that thing, then... or post the original with the real catchlights if you photoshopped it to trick ppl.

[Double Negative]

my large AB foldable softbox does have an internal diffuser. Which softbox are you referring to?

Just realized I never answered this; apologies. I'm not sure anymore offhand, but I was investigating SBs and of course checked out AB (since I have AB800s) and the picture clearly did not show anything inside - baffles or diffusers.

[mdmedicgod]

I notice that the picture people store in our local mall shoots with AB1600's

[M Powered]

And it wasn't shot with a bee?
And she's not wearing makeup?
And the eyes aren't photoshopped to white while increasing color saturation?

Do tell me how you lit that thing, then... or post the original with the real catchlights if you photoshopped it to trick ppl.

That shot was done in another studio that was lit by.... yup you guessed it, NOT Alien Bee. Its some generic brand strobe unit with a large softbox. Fill was a gelled 580EXII bounced into oblivion.

Yes the catch light was obviously photoshoped, didn't spend a great deal of time making an authentic one; hell didn't even spend a great deal of time on that image. Lets not talk about Make up :)

[Double Negative]

Yes the catch light was obviously photoshoped...:)

A ha!

[Yohan Pamudji]

A ha!

Figures. Not exactly a fair "how was this lit" test if you're gonna go and add fake ring light catchlights in post.

[cdifoto]

Every great image I've ever seen was photoshopped or darkroomed in some way. His point is...you can't really tell when all's said and done.

[Hermes]

Okay, lets see if I don't get flamed off the board. I'm using cheapo Alien Bees and Photoflex strobes and softboxes, for my use they do a great job, especially with PW's.

Now question is why would I need to upgrade to Profoto's or Broncolor? Or any other high end strobe ?

Clearly you wouldn't.

On the other hand if you were shooting medium or large format at ISO 50, stopping down to f/11-f/22, having to pay film/back rental costs and expensive studio time for every shot that was slightly off-colour or off-exposure and working with clients breathing down your neck and examining every shot seconds after it was taken, I guarantee you'd find it hard to work with lights that are low-powered and lacking in consistency.

[DocFrankenstein]

That shot was done in another studio that was lit by.... yup you guessed it, NOT Alien Bee. Its some generic brand strobe unit with a large softbox. Fill was a gelled 580EXII bounced into oblivion.

Yes the catch light was obviously photoshoped, didn't spend a great deal of time making an authentic one; hell didn't even spend a great deal of time on that image. Lets not talk about Make up :)
Oh... another studio... with "another generic" light... and photoshopped catchlights as a ring light.

Something tells me my initial guess was right.

You still didn't post your allegedly original image... Is it because you didn't photoshop the catchlights?

[M Powered]

Every great image I've ever seen was photoshopped or darkroomed in some way. His point is...you can't really tell when all's said and done.

Word...

[slivr]

Hey M -
Wow! Sounds like somebody had their cornflakes pissed on this morning for breakfast. I'd like to play along if you don't mind. I don't use Bee's or their modifiers but don't have a problem with anyone that does.

Anyway - I'm staring into those incredible eyes, and can't help noticing the catchlight in them. Was this possibly shot with a 17" beauty dish just to the right-side of the camera, rather than a ringflash? The softness of light falloff and subtle shadows leads me away from it being a ringflash. Most ringflash shots I've seen have a more intense light edge and unique shadowing effects.

Beyond that - there seems to be a 2nd light source located towards the right of the image but I'd guess it's a soft reflector. Then you worked with contrast and saturation (desaturation) as part of your post processing, possibly multiplying your red channel.

Just a guess. I'm confident M will share his setup in due time, if others want to play along. But the original question is can I tell if this was shot with a "cheap" light or a Broncolor/Profoto $1k light? Nope - I can't. But then I'm one of those guys that think this is a nice image of a beautiful girl ...so I must be another cheap ass photographer using low priced 400w/s studio lights that knows nothing about fill ratios. :)

[slivr]

Hahah! I'm late to the party and 4 posts were added while I was pecking away on my keyboard. Movin' on now.

I use Genesis 400's for my lighting. Guess that makes "M Powered" look like a high-roller with his gear.

[JakPot]

Just realized I never answered this; apologies. I'm not sure anymore offhand, but I was investigating SBs and of course checked out AB (since I have AB800s) and the picture clearly did not show anything inside - baffles or diffusers.

i went back & looked at their website, and shame on them for not mentioning it. I can't speak for the Medium or Giant softbox, but would assume they have the interior diffusion panel as well. Can't speak for the octabox either. Maybe worth a phone call if you're still looking.

Other than that, this thread has turned into a pissing contest about gear. Everybody seems to be one sided.

A photographer will use whatever it takes to get the shot... if they can do it with an AB400, great. If they need a full Profoto location kit, so be it. You'll know when you've outgrown certain gear... until then, use the hell out of it and have fun. PLEASE HAVE FUN :D

[M Powered]

Oh... another studio... with "another generic" light... and photoshopped catchlights as a ring light.

Something tells me my initial guess was right.

You still didn't post your allegedly original image... Is it because you didn't photoshop the catchlights?

Yea, I don't want to post the original because I don't have the photoshoped "ringlight" :rolleyes:

Your initial guess was that I used a cheap bee ringlight, which I state no ring light was used... so how can you be right in your assumption? You also said I inverted the image in post to make it more interesting; to which I disclosed the shot was taken with the model upside down.

So yea... your right LOL

[slivr]

Hey, Jakpot - I agree whole-heartedly with your last statement. Not sure why so many turn their noses up at Alien Bees. I've seen a number of photographs taken with them that were exactly what the Photog' intended to capture, so that spells success in my book.

[M Powered]

Okay,

Lets try this again.

There was 4 lights used in this shot. guess what and where :)

http://home.socal.rr.com/mpowered/sstone2.jpg

[DocFrankenstein]

Yea, I don't want to post the original because I don't have the photoshoped "ringlight" :rolleyes:

Your initial guess was that I used a cheap bee ringlight, which I state no ring light was used... so how can you be right in your assumption? You also said I inverted the image in post to make it more interesting; to which I disclosed the shot was taken with the model upside down.

So yea... your right LOL
Ok, I don't get it.

Did you photoshop the catchlights or not?

[M Powered]

Ok, I don't get it.

Did you photoshop the catchlights or not?


Yes sir! ;)

[DocFrankenstein]

Okay,

Lets try this again.

There was 4 lights used in this shot. guess what and where :)
One on top of the camera, one to the left and one to the right. Either shoot through umbrellas or octaboxes.

[DocFrankenstein]

Yes sir! ;)
So, can I ask you to post the "original" version where you didn't photoshop the catchlights?

[M Powered]

One on top of the camera, one to the left and one to the right. Either shoot through umbrellas or octaboxes.

Wow, much closer!

Octodome was positioned to my left, 3 580EXII's with colored gels were all aimed at the wall behind me and one at the ceiling.

[M Powered]

So, can I ask you to post the "original" version where you didn't photoshop the catchlights?

No sir! ;)

Model is somewhat picky about her pictures, I'm sure she wouldn't want non edited pictures of her floating around without her consent :(

[DocFrankenstein]

No sir! ;)

Model is somewhat picky about her pictures, I'm sure she wouldn't want non edited pictures of her floating around without her consent :(
Oh, please. lol :lol:

[Rudi]

Not sure why so many turn their noses up at Alien Bees. I've seen a number of photographs taken with them that were exactly what the Photog' intended to capture, so that spells success in my book.

I don't think that's the point these posters were making! The OP asked why people would want to spend extra money on high-priced studio brands over AB. Well, if I have to spend extra time in Photoshop on every image, just to make them consistent with each other, then those thousands of dollars will be saved in less than a year just by the time saved! How much is YOUR time worth??

Then the OP posts heavily photoshopped images as proof that AB are equal to anything else, even Profoto, yet refuses to post original files! And we're supposed to take his word for it? Yeah, sure!!!

Excuse me, I'm off to sell my Elinchrom gear, I have to free up some money to buy Alien Bees. ;)

No one says that you cannot make great pictures using AB, or even some of the cheap eBay outfits. And I don't have a problem with anyone shooting with any equipment they bloody well choose. I do have a problem with people being so narrow-minded that they cannot see that there is a REASON for other choices than the choices they made...

[TMR Design]

No one says that you cannot make great pictures using AB, or even some of the cheap eBay outfits. And I don't have a problem with anyone shooting with any equipment they bloody well choose. I do have a problem with people being so narrow-minded that they cannot see that there is a REASON for other choices than the choices they made...

Exactly.

[M Powered]

I don't think that's the point these posters were making! The OP asked why people would want to spend extra money on high-priced studio brands over AB. Well, if I have to spend extra time in Photoshop on every image, just to make them consistent with each other, then those thousands of dollars will be saved in less than a year just by the time saved! How much is YOUR time worth??

Excuse me, I'm off to sell my Elinchrom gear, I have to free up some money to buy Alien Bees. ;)

No one says that you cannot make great pictures using AB, or even some of the cheap eBay outfits. And I don't have a problem with anyone shooting with any equipment they bloody well choose. I do have a problem with people being so narrow-minded that they cannot see that there is a REASON for other choices than the choices they made...

You gotta be kidding. Your argument is like why people buy hybrids thinking they are going to save money on gas, yet ignore the fact that having a hybrid adds a substantial premium over non hybrid cars. The premium difference would take YEARS to recover, and in most cases it never catches up because hybrid cars requires more maintenance.

So I should buy Profoto over AB or any other lower end strobe manufactures because it will save me time in post work? LOL!! Would you like to see my photos using Profoto strobes??? That is, if you haven't already ;)

Then the OP posts heavily photoshopped images as proof that AB are equal to anything else, even Profoto, yet refuses to post original files! And we're supposed to take his word for it? Yeah, sure!!!

Heavily photoshoped images? Those pictures are junk, from the get go, those shots are made to be brought into post for concept editing, so "as shot" will look very weird. If you want to see "as shot" images I have much better specimens that I would like to show; let me know :p

Feel free to post your "high end" strobe examples ;)

[Rudi]

If you want to see "as shot" images I have much better specimens that I would like to show; let me know :p

Please, let's see some! Several posters have been asking you for just that!

[Jarrad]

High End Gear will allow for the possibility of creating high quality images under a wider array of circumstances than would otherwise be possible and usually with less hassle. It's no substitute for the skill required to create a high quality image in the first place.

And if you've never used the Profoto ProB2, the Broncolor Verso Series or even the Elinchrom Ranger with their respective modifiers out on location, you wouldn't understand.

I suggest you give them a rent and see for yourself.

[Rudi]

Those pictures are junk, from the get go, those shots are made to be brought into post for concept editing, so "as shot" will look very weird.

Why would you shoot junk to start off with? ???

[M Powered]

Please, let's see some! Several posters have been asking you for just that!

Heres a few examples. (Exif is in the file, view before you ask please.)

First the boring one...
http://home.socal.rr.com/mpowered/asshot.jpg

Now one with a little more Zest ;)
http://home.socal.rr.com/mpowered/asshot2.jpg

[M Powered]

High End Gear will allow for the possibility of creating high quality images under a wider array of circumstances than would otherwise be possible and usually with less hassle. It's no substitute for the skill required to create a high quality image in the first place.

And if you've never used the Profoto ProB2, the Broncolor Verso Series or even the Elinchrom Ranger with their respective modifiers out on location, you wouldn't understand.

I suggest you give them a rent and see for yourself.

I shot with them before in other studio's. Nothing I would vouch as if I owned them, but I can say I've shot with them, yes.

[M Powered]

Why would you shoot junk to start off with? ???

The term Junk is subjective, many would consider baby portraits, weddings, landscape, bird photography or anything that is non glamor related to be classified as, "junk." Me.... it depends on the day, my mood changes :)

[Rudi]

Nice! I actually like the one you labeled "boring", but there you go. :)

OK, looking at the EXIF, and seeing how you asked "Why Profoto over AB", I could ask "Why a Mark III and not a Rebel with the kit lens???" Seeing the apertures that these were shot at, there is no need to have top of the range L lenses to create these images...

I know that there's no point shooting wide open, that was not my point! My point was - why buy a Mark III when a Rebel would do the same job? After all, that is precisely what YOU asked, except it was to do with lights, not cameras and lenses... :)

[cdifoto]

Supermodels make F1 look like a Soccermom Minivan Rally. You need the quick AF for them chickies.

[M Powered]

Nice! I actually like the one you labeled "boring", but there you go. :)

OK, looking at the EXIF, and seeing how you asked "Why Profoto over AB", I could ask "Why a Mark III and not a Rebel with the kit lens???" Seeing the apertures that these were shot at, there is no need to have top of the range L lenses to create these images...

I know that there's no point shooting wide open, that was not my point! My point was - why buy a Mark III when a Rebel would do the same job? After all, that is precisely what YOU asked, except it was to do with lights, not cameras and lenses... :)

I didn't buy a Mark III to post these pictures, or start this thread either, catch my drift? ;)

If everyone thought like you did we all would own XTi's with consumer grade glass, because you REALLY don't NEED anything.

But to answer your question why a Mark III. Well, because its the only DSLR I own. Why top of the line L lenses? Because also, its all I own. Why am I posting this thread? Because I want to justify buying Profoto's :p

[M Powered]

Supermodels make F1 look like a Soccermom Minivan Rally. You need the quick AF for them chickies.

Yea, its great when a Model says, "wow, thats a really big camera." ;)

[Rudi]

Why am I posting this thread? Because I want to justify buying Profoto's :p

NOW we're getting somewhere! :)

OK, I'll help you out - your photos suck, you really need Profoto to make them better! (How's that?? ??? :D).

[M Powered]

NOW we're getting somewhere! :)

OK, I'll help you out - your photos suck, you really need Profoto to make them better! (How's that?? ??? :D).

Lol! you got it!

Dragging 10-12k worth of gear to the beach isn't enough... mine as well make it 20k, oh god my insurance is going to go up :(

[TopGear1Ds]

oh god my insurance is going to go up :(
You're want to drop how much on lighting, and it's the insurance costs that worry you? lol:p

[Rudi]

You're want to drop how much on lighting, and it's the insurance costs that worry you? lol:p

LOL

[M Powered]

You're want to drop how much on lighting, and it's the insurance costs that worry you? lol:p

whoa whoa whoa! wait a minute! I didn't say I was convinced yet! :p

[Rudi]

OK, they REALLY suck! ;) :p :D

[M Powered]

OK, they REALLY suck! ;) :p :D

.......

Must


Resist!

:p

Let me go rent them out this weekend ;)

[Gentleman Villain]

Heres a few examples. (Exif is in the file, view before you ask please.)



Both of those images are very nice shots, but they are also good examples of what I referred to earlier as "uneven coverage." There is what I consider to be a vast exposure difference between parts of the faces of the models and the rest of their bodies. That's not necessarily a problem on it's own, but the transition between light and dark areas are very abrupt. There isn't much going on in the way of mid-tones. This is not necessarily a bad thing it can be a matter of personal preference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But it is definitely a tell tale sign of lower end lighting gear OR somebody using high end gear in conjunction with bad placement and/or the incorrect lighting modifier for the subject.

Anyhow man...they're still nice shots...props for posting....and you're lucky to be able to hookup with some serious Betty's...keep up the good work and deliver us some more babes if possible :)

[M Powered]

Both of those images are very nice shots, but they are also good examples of what I referred to earlier as "uneven coverage." There is what I consider to be a vast exposure difference between parts of the faces of the models and the rest of their bodies. That's not necessarily a problem on it's own, but the transition between light and dark areas are very abrupt. There isn't much going on in the way of mid-tones. This is not necessarily a bad thing it can be a matter of personal preference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But it is definitely a tell tale sign of lower end lighting gear OR somebody using high end gear in conjunction with bad placement and/or the incorrect lighting modifier for the subject.

Anyhow man...they're still nice shots...props for posting....and you're lucky to be able to hookup with some serious Betty's...keep up the good work and deliver us some more babes if possible :)

Exactly, minor flaws in lighting is never always a bad thing... If the light is too even, then the shot is boring. Contrasy light makes it more interesting.

Ya dig? ;)
http://home.socal.rr.com/mpowered/jesxtine2.jpg

[Lotto]

MP, you KNOW how to light and the results show.

Now, I want to bet a buck that you can create the similar images with a XTi too;)

[slivr]

LOL - you guys are all cracking me up. Good stuff.

I don't think we saw anything posted in this thread that actually emphasizes the point our OP was trying to make. But wouldn't most posters here agree that you can still create a great shot even with limited and/or low-priced equipment ... whereas someone else could throw thousands of dollars into lighting but without the proper knowledge to use and control the light, his images could end up crap anyway?

I haven't had the chance to use too many manufacturers lights as yet, but hope to over time. Member 'TMR' has done a great comparisan of several popular lights that should benefit a great many readers. (Kudo's - Robert). What I've discovered personally is that as one becomes more familiar with some of these entry-level lights - certain things start coming to your attention such as poorly shaped or surfaced reflectors, flimsier parts, maybe an ill-tuned light modifier or cheaply built assessories, etc. Not every brand of course, but they all seem to have little nagging issues. After you experience some of those you realize there's definitely some benefits to owning the higher-end gear.

[RichNY]

The arguments of good v. cheap apply to lights, modifiers, cameras, glass, etc. - they are secondary to talent but they do contribute the quality of images shot by both amateurs and professionals alike to varying amounts.

I'm in agreement with slivr that Robert has done an excellent job of posting findings from testing various lighting gear. As someone who has spent hours with him in the B&H lighting department on numerous occasions I can tell you that the amount of time he has dedicated to testing has been enormous and go far beyond the scope of what gets posted on the forum.

[Gentleman Villain]

Exactly, minor flaws in lighting is never always a bad thing... If the light is too even, then the shot is boring. Contrasy light makes it more interesting.

Ya dig? ;)


For example, high Contrast lighting always looks good on strippers

cheap girls and cheap lights go perfect together LOL

[Rudi]

For example, high Contrast lighting always looks good on strippers

cheap girls and cheap lights go perfect together LOL

ROFLMAO

[Tareq]

Nice discussion.
If i don't have money i will buy just ABs or few 580EX or even 430EX, but because i have some bucks i go for name [Bronocolors, Profoto, elinchrom, Hensel, Bowens,....], i got bowens and i see 0 issues, and i am sure within 10-20 years it will perform great, i left them in so hot place and the weather here is very hot and humid, and my light working like a charm, and i am not looking to waste my money on some cheap equipment even they do fine because i will throw more later to maintenance or replace many accessories, but that doesn't mean that all should go and buy high end, if they have money then who can stop them to buy $30k lighting brand? who can stop me to buy Aston Martin just because Honda Civic or just cheapest BMW is enough? i have money thats it.

[magicmikey]

Just realized I never answered this; apologies. I'm not sure anymore offhand, but I was investigating SBs and of course checked out AB (since I have AB800s) and the picture clearly did not show anything inside - baffles or diffusers.

Directly from the description of the AB Folding Softboxes on their website: Each box additionally arrives with a second internal baffle for double-diffusion.

Directly from the description of the standard AB Softboxes on their website: Each softbox arrives with the LGSR speedring for faceplate attachment, and a second optional internal diffusion panel.

You can't get the full story about most products by just looking at the pictures.:)

[Double Negative]

^ LOL! Okay, so that's good to know at least.

[tcphoto1]

I assisted for a number of years before becoming a full time photographer. Not once did I work with a Pro that used AB's. They used Profoto, Dynalite and Broncolor mainly because they were reliable, well constructed and consistent with exposure and color balance. When you're billing a couple thousand dollars for the day, you don't want to be using inferior tools that may break down in the middle of the project. For those that disagree, I would suggest renting one of those kits for a day and you will understand.

[Palladium]

Someone had a great signature tag line on POTN - something like

Friends Don't Let Friends buy Alien Bees


I remember seeing a website from a former worker bee that was full of surprises...

[René Damkot]

A few differences that make for instance Bron and ProFoto different from cheaper strobes:

Little variation in color temperature across the power range*
Flash Duration is short* (extremely short on some ProPhotos)
Consistent power output
Output of modeling light consistent with flash power set (WYSIWYG)
Lots and lots of (exotic) light modifiers (Para and giant umbrella for example)
Durable, foolproof UI
Some models have quite a few user setable options (timer, sequence, multiple flash)
Raw power. Bron has (had?) packs that go up to 6400Ws... (Pulso 8 )

(*: Broncolor Grafit (https://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=337) series allow the user to set it (within a certain range) IIRC.

[Curtis N]

Have I fired a round in this flame war yet?

I just received the May issue of Professional Photographer magazine.

The cover photo was taken with
a Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
EF 24-70 f/2.8L
Manfrotto 3011 tripod w/ ball head

... and an Alienbees B1600 w/ Paul C. Buff Octabox, powered by a Vagabond 150.

Maybe the guy didn't want to take his precious Profotos to the beach and risk getting sand in them? I dunno. But apparently the cheap lights are good enough for some applications.

As for why people buy better ones, Rene' summed it up pretty well.

[M Powered]

A few differences that make for instance Bron and ProFoto different from cheaper strobes:

Little variation in color temperature across the power range*
Flash Duration is short* (extremely short on some ProPhotos)
Consistent power output
Output of modeling light consistent with flash power set (WYSIWYG)
Lots and lots of (exotic) light modifiers (Para and giant umbrella for example)
Durable, foolproof UI
Some models have quite a few user setable options (timer, sequence, multiple flash)
Raw power. Bron has (had?) packs that go up to 6400Ws... (Pulso 8 )(*: Broncolor Grafit (https://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=337) series allow the user to set it (within a certain range) IIRC.

Sounds like a good reason to spend 5-6k. Kinda reminds me of that quote from fast and the furious... "Stand alone fuel system, not a bad way to spend 10k" :p

[M Powered]

Just looked at Profoto's stuff. Is 600ws the highest you can get without going to a pack/ head setup?

[breal101]

A few differences that make for instance Bron and ProFoto different from cheaper strobes:
Little variation in color temperature across the power range*
Flash Duration is short* (extremely short on some ProPhotos)
Consistent power output
Output of modeling light consistent with flash power set (WYSIWYG)
Lots and lots of (exotic) light modifiers (Para and giant umbrella for example)
Durable, foolproof UI
Some models have quite a few user setable options (timer, sequence, multiple flash)
Raw power. Bron has (had?) packs that go up to 6400Ws... (Pulso 8 )(*: Broncolor Grafit (https://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=337) series allow the user to set it (within a certain range) IIRC.

That's all so true Rene, but does Bron come in decorator colors? :):)

[tcphoto1]

Just looked at Profoto's stuff. Is 600ws the highest you can get without going to a pack/ head setup?

Profoto Acute Series
600ws for the battery powered pack
2400ws for ac pack
1200ws for Compact

The Pro7 Series
1200ws battery pack
2400ws ac pack

[Hermes]

Just looked at Profoto's stuff. Is 600ws the highest you can get without going to a pack/ head setup?

1200ws is, but if you're looking for compacts, the digital display, better control, brighter modelling light and 6-stop range you get from the Elinchrom RX series makes them a much better option IMO.

[DocFrankenstein]

Just looked at Profoto's stuff. Is 600ws the highest you can get without going to a pack/ head setup?
Powerpacks are the reason to go profoto... their monolights have issues and chromes are better, generally.

And there is a profoto 1200 ws monolight

[tcphoto1]

Have I fired a round in this flame war yet?

I just received the May issue of Professional Photographer magazine.

The cover photo was taken with
a Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
EF 24-70 f/2.8L
Manfrotto 3011 tripod w/ ball head

... and an Alienbees B1600 w/ Paul C. Buff Octabox, powered by a Vagabond 150.

Maybe the guy didn't want to take his precious Profotos to the beach and risk getting sand in them? I dunno. But apparently the cheap lights are good enough for some applications.

As for why people buy better ones, Rene' summed it up pretty well.

I just did a search and found a Professional Photographer Magazine. It's geared towards photographers that shoot senior pictures? I thought that we were referring to more of the Photo District News and American Photographer set.

[Curtis N]

I just did a search and found a Professional Photographer Magazine. It's geared towards photographers that shoot senior pictures?That's just the focus of this particular issue.

FWIW, there are ads in it for Alienbees, Profoto and everything in between.

[M Powered]

Powerpacks are the reason to go profoto... their monolights have issues and chromes are better, generally.

And there is a profoto 1200 ws monolight

For my use, I do 90% on location shoots which is why monolights serve me better. I can't be weighted down by cables attaching to a pack. Each light configuration right now act independently. Each has their own Vegabond and PW.

[slivr]

Quick Curtis - get your protective fire suit on! LOL

I recently watched a DVD by a magazine photographer (Jason Cole in Australia) using Broncolor setups and was sure impressed with what I saw from his lighting equipment. And he had Boncolor's snap-on power pack that allowed him to take his same gear outdoors on location. I like the concept of monolights, but when I outgrow the entry-level lights I have it's going to be a tougher choice for all the reasons some of you have pointed out above.

- Jason Stoll

[TMR Design]

For my use, I do 90% on location shoots which is why monolights serve me better. I can't be weighted down by cables attaching to a pack. Each light configuration right now act independently. Each has their own Vegabond and PW.

How do you handle power level changes when your monolight is 10 feet up in the air and positioned. I'm looking for good alternatives that give me power as well as remote capability.

I've owned AB strobes and have had first hand experience with the LG-4X. Honestly, it's a piece of garbage and the throw of the slider is only about 2/3 that of an actual Bee, so the power control is about as coarse as you can get. If you're using it below 1/4 power it may as well be an on/off switch.

I know that Elinchrom Skyport transmitter will talk to Style RX strobes as well as an IR remote for power control and I know Hensel has a wireless remote. Other than going pack and head what are the alternatives for remote (or at least ground level) control?

I'm seriously considering Dyna-Lite monolights because of the quality, build and analog circuitry to really maximize power from the V2, but I don't see a remote capability.

[slivr]

Robert -
UPDATE: Oops - with all the talk of Alien Bees earlier in this thread, I addressed a remote for them. Sorry, Robert - I know you're not shooting those. My mistake.

Original Post: I thought this new remote by Alien Bees allowed you to control from your camera? I know it uses a 4-wire telco cord to connect everything together causing a bit of a problem, but I would think it's better than climbing the ladder or bringing AB heads down to adjust them. http://www.alienbees.com/wired.html

[M Powered]

How do you handle power level changes when your monolight is 10 feet up in the air and positioned. I'm looking for good alternatives that give me power as well as remote capability.

I've owned AB strobes and have had first hand experience with the LG-4X. Honestly, it's a piece of garbage and the throw of the slider is only about 2/3 that of an actual Bee, so the power control is about as coarse as you can get. If you're using it below 1/4 power it may as well be an on/off switch.

I know that Elinchrom Skyport transmitter will talk to Style RX strobes as well as an IR remote for power control and I know Hensel has a wireless remote. Other than going pack and head what are the alternatives for remote (or at least ground level) control?

I'm seriously considering Dyna-Lite monolights because of the quality, build and analog circuitry to really maximize power from the V2, but I don't see a remote capability.

Haven't ran into any situations (yet) where my strobes are 10 ft in the air. If I did, I would just go through the tedius process of lowering them to make the adjustments :( - I don't care if the process is tedius as long as I get the shot that I want.

[M Powered]

Robert -
I thought this new remote by Alien Bees allowed you to control from your camera? I know it uses a 4-wire telco cord to connect everything together causing a bit of a problem, but I would think it's better than climbing the ladder or bringing AB heads down to adjust them.

http://www.alienbees.com/wired.html

Man, photographers are getting lazy! First zoom lenses for convenience, now Remotes for power changes... pretty soon we'll wire our cameras to a tripod that has a gryo that controls movement and we'll wirelessly take pictures at home in bed. :p

[Hermes]

It's not about laziness as much as it's about speed, which means time saved, which means faster turnover which means money and satisfied clients.

If you're not in the situation where the above matters a lot to you then I really don't see you needing Brons/Profotos or remote adjustment, although the latter is just one of many benefits of the Elinchrom RXs

[Yohan Pamudji]

Robert -
I thought this new remote by Alien Bees allowed you to control from your camera? I know it uses a 4-wire telco cord to connect everything together causing a bit of a problem, but I would think it's better than climbing the ladder or bringing AB heads down to adjust them.

http://www.alienbees.com/wired.html

That's not new. I've used that with my WLs for 3 years. Very nice to be able to adjust everything from near the camera--much quicker than getting out the step ladder and adjusting each strobe one by one. The extra cables aren't a problem since there are power cables going all over the place anyway with 3-4 strobes in use.

[RichNY]

Powerpacks are the reason to go profoto... their monolights have issues and chromes are better, generally.


While most of Profoto's business is power pack based I've never heard any issue whatsoever with their monolights. Can you please provide a link to where you have heard about this?

Q. What do you mean by chromes are better?

[TMR Design]

It has nothing to do with laziness. If I were lazy I would not be rolling in a cart with cases, sandbags, tool booxes, stands, a V2, etc. and I wouldn't be so willing to set up, breakdown, move to a new location and do that 4 times in a day.

I don't use an assistant and everything is on me during a shoot. I move quickly and hate wasting time or making a model wait on me. I believe that the technical aspects of a shoot should be transparent to a model or art director and there should be a flow to the shoot.

If I was doing family portraits in my back yard it wouldn't matter but with clients and in the interest of creativity, being able to change not only position of a light but also power level allows me to work more efficiently and to make changes on the fly rather than being locked in to any one setup or taking aperture.

The same thing applies when I'm in the studio. If my main light is 8 feet in the air and my hair light is 8 feet in the air then I now have 2 strobes that I have to either lower and raise or I'm up and down on a step ladder.. and the step ladder doesn't even help when there's a strip light over my subject, mounted to a boom and coming from 6 feet off to the side. That strobe has its controls literally facing the ceiling so you can't just climb a ladder to make the adjustment.

I look for the tools that will make my job easier, not those that allow me to be lazy.

[RichNY]

I don't care if the process is tedius as long as I get the shot that I want.
Then save your money, keep your ABs setting a CWB whenever you change power an make any adjustments in PP.

[M Powered]

While most of Profoto's business is power pack based I've never heard any issue whatsoever with their monolights. Can you please provide a link to where you have heard about this?

Q. What do you mean by chromes are better?

Yea I want to know! Their 1200ws monostrobe light is priced very attractively. I don't mind spending 1000k for a 1200ws monolight. The WL 1300 cost about 700 bucks, I don't mind spending the extra for a much better light.

[Tareq]

CALM DOWN PEOPLE!

To the OP, why you didn't ask about Bronocolor or Elinchrom vs. AB? why not Bronocolor vs. Profoto?

Now i don't use Profto and i think many in middle east don't have Profoto, so why you just stated Profoto vs. AB? We don't have ABs here as well, so what we can do then?

[RichNY]

Yea I want to know! Their 1200ws monostrobe light is priced very attractively. I don't mind spending 1000k for a 1200ws monolight. The WL 1300 cost about 700 bucks, I don't mind spending the extra for a much better light.

Personally I'd get a light meter before upgrading your strobes.

1200ws is a lot of light. If you want to shoot at lower f/stops then you may very well find yourself in situations where you have too much light and where moving the strobes further away will change the quality of the light. I'm not suggesting that 1200 watts will be too much for your application but if you find yourself wanting to shoot indoors in a smaller area you will have a lot more DOF than you anticipate unless you start using ND filters on your lens, etc.

[RichNY]

CALM DOWN PEOPLE!

To the OP, why you didn't ask about Bronocolor or Elinchrom vs. AB? why not Bronocolor vs. Profoto?

Now i don't use Profto and i think many in middle east don't have Profoto, so why you just stated Profoto vs. AB? We don't have ABs here as well, so what we can do then?


Other brands such as Bron, Elinchrom, Dyna-Lite, and Hensel were all presented early on in this thread. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5622481&postcount=16

If you are living in the middle east not having Profoto and ABs is the least of your problems ;)

[Tareq]

Other brands such as Bron, Elinchrom, Dyna-Lite, and Hensel were all presented early on in this thread. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5622481&postcount=16

If you are living in the middle east not having Profoto and ABs is the least of your problems ;)

Great, i will read that thread, thanks :)

And what do you mean by your last statement? ;)

[flipstyle72]

haha...sounds to me that those who buy the really expensive stuff more or less try to justify and convince themselves by "overly" bad talking the cheaper stuff. Then mentality goes with ALL aspects of life purchases by EVERYONE.

There are solid points on both sides of the argument...

I don't care what people say, MP posted some shots in here that almost everyone would love to have taken shots like.

Me...i buy the cheap stuff cuz this is more fun than a living... ;-). And when I DO create stunning shots, It's cooler to say you did it with cheap stuff.

One of the most complimented images I have from joe on the street to the more professional shooters was taken with an XT, 80dollar lens and 50dollar ebay strobes. lol.

[DocFrankenstein]

While most of Profoto's business is power pack based I've never heard any issue whatsoever with their monolights. Can you please provide a link to where you have heard about this?

Q. What do you mean by chromes are better?
I find Elinchromes more convenient, hence better.

Profotos monopacks have issues if you get the radio PW version. Sometimes they don't trigger. And I've had one rental unit that blew a fuse every time I've shot it at less than max output. My friend had to return his 1200 monolight twice, cause it just died.

1200 wattseconds is "a lot" only if you shoot in a small studio and can't adjust the power. I've shot with a 2400 ws non-adjustable powerpack for a while and the only problem I had was getting an f/45 for a headshot when you're shooting through doubly diffused panel. :) Had I had even a two-stop adjustment, I'd simply stop down two stops and have no problems at f/22

[M Powered]

Like I mentioned before, I do a lot of shooting on location. With summer coming around, my 650ws strobe with a 3' Octodome at full power is not cutting it. At F/11 the sky is still rather bright and I like the dimmer dark effect. (See, Over powering the sun) Sure I can wait until the sun starts to set, but why?

[M Powered]

CALM DOWN PEOPLE!

To the OP, why you didn't ask about Bronocolor or Elinchrom vs. AB? why not Bronocolor vs. Profoto?

Now i don't use Profto and i think many in middle east don't have Profoto, so why you just stated Profoto vs. AB? We don't have ABs here as well, so what we can do then?


So what... before we make comparisons we gotta make sure the product is available in the middle east? LOL ;)

[TMR Design]

Like I mentioned before, I do a lot of shooting on location. With summer coming around, my 650ws strobe with a 3' Octodome at full power is not cutting it. At F/11 the sky is still rather bright and I like the dimmer dark effect. (See, Over powering the sun) Sure I can wait until the sun starts to set, but why?

This is what I'm also going through right now.

[Tareq]

So what... before we make comparisons we gotta make sure the product is available in the middle east? LOL ;)

Yeah, it is not just USA members here even they are the most percentage, so we are ignored then ;)

[M Powered]

This is what I'm also going through right now.

With the sun right now I need to be at least at F18. To get good exposure I need 2 AB1600 at full power.

Its only going to get worst when summer hits... Yea, so all of a sudden 1200ws doesn't seem so much :)

[TMR Design]

With the sun right now I need to be at least at F18. To get good exposure I need 2 AB1600 at full power.

Its only going to get worst when summer hits... Yea, so all of a sudden 1200ws doesn't seem so much :)

I hear you. We're in exactly the same boat man.

[Hermes]

With the sun right now I need to be at least at F18. To get good exposure I need 2 AB1600 at full power.

Its only going to get worst when summer hits... Yea, so all of a sudden 1200ws doesn't seem so much :)

If all you need is one light with lots of power, then it might be worth a look to see if you can get hold of any old Elinchrom classic compacts - they used to make them in 1200ws and 2400ws. They can still be serviced although the one I have is from the early 80's and still works perfectly.

[TMR Design]

If all you need is one light with lots of power, then it might be worth a look to see if you can get hold of any old Elinchrom classic compacts - they used to make them in 1200ws and 2400ws. They can still be serviced although the one I have is from the early 80's and still works perfectly.

I've seen then and read about them. Right now there are a few in the B&H used department that look mighty tempting, but I'm sure they'll sell before I'm ready to buy.

[epatt250]

For example, high Contrast lighting always looks good on strippers

cheap girls and cheap lights go perfect together LOL

Where do you live to think strippers are cheap?

I am coming to visit.

[Lotto]

haha...sounds to me that those who buy the really expensive stuff more or less try to justify and convince themselves by "overly" bad talking the cheaper stuff. Then mentality goes with ALL aspects of life purchases by EVERYONE.

There are solid points on both sides of the argument...

I don't care what people say, MP posted some shots in here that almost everyone would love to have taken shots like.

Me...i buy the cheap stuff cuz this is more fun than a living... ;-). And when I DO create stunning shots, It's cooler to say you did it with cheap stuff.

One of the most complimented images I have from joe on the street to the more professional shooters was taken with an XT, 80dollar lens and 50dollar ebay strobes. lol.

I feel the same :eek::lol:

[Philco]

Personally I don't buy into your cost justification argument. If you can cost justify a pair of 5Ds, a 70-200 f/2.8, an 85 f/1.2, and a 35 L for your work you certainly can cost justify another $1k more for professional lights. I'm not attacking your kit or suggesting that they don't meet your needs, but if you need that type of camera and gear for your work I don't think the cost justification argument holds up. If don't consider your work high end commercial then you might as well be shooting it with Rebel or 20D and consumer glass.

Here's the thing - I'm not lighting weddings from start to finish like a commercial job. It's not even in the same universe as doing a commercial shoot where you have to plan out all your shots and bring along a grip truck and a bunch of PA's to set up / strike the gear, and the talent is making $18k just to be there for a day. If I was doing primarily commercial, I could buy the pro kit, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't still break out the bees for simpler jobs. If I need it, I can rent a kit for the weekend from my local Calumet.

Another $1k for more professional lights? To swap what I own in PCB gear out with Profoto packs/heads would cost me at least 7K if I skimp on modifiers. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I consider my work high-end or low-end, it has to do with what my needs are. My needs for off camera lighting are fairly simple- I can usually get away with a single head and a medium softbox, so why I'd want to overspend by 7X to get that makes no sense to me. I'm not shooting a high-end clothing catalog where color accuracey from every firing of the flash has to be perfect. I'd rather make my car payment this month.

The analogy to bodies/lenses doesn't hold up - an AB800 w/ a medium softbox does the same thing a profoto head does - it lights my subject. Maybe not with as convenient controls or as beautiful fit and finish, but it does it well enough at a much lower cost. A consumer lens, let's say an f4-5.6 zoom is not going to allow me to create shots like the 35L does. The 85 f1.2 is my favorite, but the 85 f1.8 would probably be fine 75% the time.

How do you even select a focus point on the fly with a Rebel? I know people shoot weddings with them sometimes, but I wonder how they do it. 20D's are okay, I had one a few years ago. I prefer the perspective on the FF body and the larger pentaprism makes it easier to see what the heck I'm doing. The files are still great, so they justify themselves in my book - and since it's my company, I get to make the call. It's not worth the dough to everybody, I know.

Anyway...I get what you're trying to say, but I have to say from my experience, lots of high-end wedding shooters don't even go so far as to fuss with anything other than speelights. I don't know of any high-end quality shooters that are using consumer glass, except for maybe the 50 f1.4 or the 85 f1.8.

Cheers

[Rudi]

I know that Elinchrom Skyport transmitter will talk to Style RX strobes as well as an IR remote for power control and I know Hensel has a wireless remote. Other than going pack and head what are the alternatives for remote (or at least ground level) control?

That is probably the best option, but you can also get the wired remote. Not sure how that works, I've never used it personally, but wired will be reliable enough, and you usually know which lights you're going to be mounting high enough to need a remote, no? :)

[TMR Design]

You're right Rudi. I believe there is an Elinchrom wired remote. For now, on location I only need to control my main light. In the studio I would want control over a main and hair light.

[Rudi]

One of the most complimented images I have from joe on the street to the more professional shooters was taken with an XT, 80dollar lens and 50dollar ebay strobes. lol.

And one of my best-selling images was taken with a Fuji F30 P&S and no strobes whatsoever... that does not mean that I would like to do all my work with that particular camera or never use studio lights! :D

http://rudiphoto.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p513316897.jpg

[Rudi]

You're right Rudi. I believe there is an Elinchrom wired remote. For now, on location I only need to control my main light. In the studio I would want control over a main and hair light.

I just thought that it might work out cheaper than buying an RX kit (but who am I kidding, I want an RX kit, too! :D).

BTW, with the exception of the D-Lite (which you can get separately), this is the best, most comprehensive Elinchrom catalogue that I have managed to find on their website: http://www.elinchrom.com/Downloads/Literature/Face%20to%20Face/FacingRightE.pdf

[Hermes]

I just thought that it might work out cheaper than buying an RX kit (but who am I kidding, I want an RX kit, too! :D).

BTW, with the exception of the D-Lite (which you can get separately), this is the best, most comprehensive Elinchrom catalogue that I have managed to find on their website: http://www.elinchrom.com/Downloads/Literature/Face%20to%20Face/FacingRightE.pdf

I believe the wired remote still only works with the RX lights as they alone have the circuitry that allows the settings to be remotely altered. One plus of the skyport RX option is that the receivers don't use batteries as they are powered from the RX light so there is no need to worry about charging them up or the battery levels getting low.

[Rudi]

They do have a BX/FX remote AFAIK...

[Hermes]

They do have a BX/FX remote AFAIK...

Can you post a link to where you have seen this please as I've never heard of them in years of shooting with Elinchrom.

I really can't see how they would work as all there is on the back of the FX/BX lights is a power socket and a sync socket - no more complex interface like there is on the RX.

[Rudi]

Hrmmm.... You're right! I just looked, and cannot see it anywhere. Oh well, I was going to pony up for the RX set anyway... eventually. :)

[Faolan]

The remote for the Elinchrom is a simple radio trigger it's used for trigger the strobe instead of a hot shoe and is used in conjunction with a lightmeter.

This said the only real radio option for Elinchroms is the RX series, but you have to be aware of it's limitations. The best way to control the RX series remotes is via a PC. Whilst the hot shoe trigger works, you don't have the fine granular control over the individual heads. All you have on a hotshoe trigger is a -/+ button to control power.

This said I wouldn't give up my RX remotes.

[DavidPhoto]

Geez, why do you choose anything that you buy? Simple it does what you want it to do, you can afford it, and (very important) YOU like it! So buy what turns you on within your price range.
If fighting the sun is your issue why not buy a couple of 1200ws battery powered (profoto or Elinca) jobs? That should do it. ???

[RichNY]

Another thing to realize is that you don't need to purchase very expensive battery powered packs for location shooting. A Profoto Acute 1200/2400 (or other pack and head system) can be powered by a Tronix or V2 in the field at a much lower cost and work great as a A/C studio setup as well.

[M Powered]

Another thing to realize is that you don't need to purchase very expensive battery powered packs for location shooting. A Profoto Acute 1200/2400 (or other pack and head system) can be powered by a Tronix or V2 in the field at a much lower cost and work great as a A/C studio setup as well.

At 2400ws the poor V2 will be drained in about 100 shots.

[RichNY]

At 2400ws the poor V2 will be drained in about 100 shots.

No quicker than if you had (4) 600 ws strobes to put out the same power. Obviously if you aren't engaging in war with the sun and shooting at lower power you'll get a lot more shots per charge.

I haven't been using my Profoto Acutes outdoors yet but will be going with http://www.innovatronix.com/detailpage.asp?categoryid=42&productid=363&categoryname=Products%20and%20Services


http://www.innovatronix.com/tronixmanuals/Product%20Manual_Explorer%20XT.pdf

I can't say it is any better than the V2 but at least it doesn't come in that orange bag and since Robert (TMRDesign) has the V2 we can measurebate the two units against each other and see how they compare. Previous reviews I've seen of the V2/Tronix used the older Tronix model.

[awad]

with the v2 being 299, and the tronix being 389, why are you picking the tronix? i have a tronix that i bought a few years ago, and this sucker gets used at least 3 times a week and its been flawless.

[RichNY]

A gut feeling that the Tronix is going to be the better unit, the ability to do a good comparison and post with Robert about the relative merits of each unit, and the fact that I prefer the way the Tronix looks in comparison to the V2.

I'm glad to hear that your Tronix is working well under continuous operation. Based on your experience would you pay the extra $90 to buy a Tronix over the V2 if you were making the decision today?

[awad]

in all honesty, i'd probably pick the v2 based solely on the shape. the tronix is a big annoying thing to carry around, the v2 looks a bit more portable. however, i don't have the bag for my tronix, i might change my mind if i had that.