Approaching parents at little league games?

[musicmaster]

So,

I'm thinking of starting to shoot a few random little-league games (or soccer) over summer to bring in some extra cash from my other job.

My idea is to go up to parents either before the game, or afterwords and talk to the parents, giving out my business card (I'll also have a few photos from other baseball games i've shot, both HS and little league) asking if they would be interested in me shooting either the game that day, or at a later date, saying that my prices are pretty reasonable (which at 3.50 per 4x6, i think it is).

Any thoughts/ideas on the best way of approaching this?

[poloman]

Don't quote price on the field unless asked.
Get permission from the person in charge of the game first.
Make sure you are the only professional on site.
Just walk around before the event and ask them to sign a release for photography. If they object do not insist.
Be friendly and up beat.
Post the photos on your web site, later, protected by a password.
Respond in a positive way to all inquiries.
Do your best at all times.
This is a great way to inject yourself into the family. As people get to know you, they will talk to you more. Let them know that you do other kinds of photography.....
If your work isn't good (much better than they can do) you will only lose their respect so do your homework and make a sincere effort to be great.
I shoot in manual mode and use an incident meter for exposure. This saves me time in post processing. I use RAW format.
Don't just fire away. Try to make every shot interesting. If you want to present something decent, you will have to deal with every shot you take.
You might consider a rain cover and a monopod.
Good Luck......and have fun! :)

[EnronRocks]

Don't quote price on the field unless asked.
Get permission from the person in charge of the game first.
Make sure you are the only professional on site.
Just walk around before the event and ask them to sign a release for photography. If they object do not insist.
Be friendly and up beat.
Post the photos on your web site, later, protected by a password.
Respond in a positive way to all inquiries.
Do your best at all times.
This is a great way to inject yourself into the family. As people get to know you, they will talk to you more. Let them know that you do other kinds of photography.....
If your work isn't good (much better than they can do) you will only lose their respect so do your homework and make a sincere effort to be great.
I shoot in manual mode and use an incident meter for exposure. This saves me time in post processing. I use RAW format.
Don't just fire away. Try to make every shot interesting. If you want to present something decent, you will have to deal with every shot you take.
You might consider a rain cover and a monopod.
Good Luck......and have fun! :)

A release is not required if it is on a public field or in a public park. Pass out business cards, get a website going if you do not already have a online presence. Look into other sale items besides just prints, such as Blankets, Statuettes and so on. Find the person who talks to the most parents on the team (Usually a mom that never sits down and is walking around non stop) and give her a business card, if she visits and likes the work word of mouth will do the advertising you need. Keep in mind, although you may not like the way a image looks does not mean a parent will not buy it. If it doesn't have a face in it, don't worry about it. As long as a number is showing a parent will be interested in it. Look into on-site printing for large events, no one can argue the fact that people make very large impulse purchases.

[PhotoJourno]

For quick money, here is what I have done:

- Went once, asked one of the Coaches (anyone I knew) if I could shoot a game (Having sample photos is key, vital to show your work - not another league two years ago, but last week's).
- I created a flyer, with a Smugmug Address where the shots could be seen or purchased (using some of the samples). Made about 100.
- Then I approached the League's president (may want to do this before actually printing flyers) and ask if you can take photos and offer them to parents. Most of the time they don't care. Exception is if they already have a photographer, then you need to move to another league for more comfort, or shoot better pics than the other guy.
- Then shoot pics at games. I once walked to a couple, gave them a flyer, and asked "which number's your kid?" They'd say #5 Giants. Ok, So I would snap 10 mins of photos of this kid, and then show them via a P-3000, or a large viewfinder, etc. I'd tell them the photos would be on the address in the flyer if they were interested.
- You have no idea how if you target two parents from each team, suddenly you are talking to the coache's wives, they let you come with a little booth, and things roll on forward.
- I had two types of photographic packages:
* Action Photos- They were uploaded online, I had a pre-assigned profit per photo, and the parents could buy any copies of any size of any photo of their kid, and the pics would be automatically printed and sent to them. I'd only see the profit margin.
* Featured Player- A parent wants photos of their own kid. So you follow him for 15 Mins, usually enough for a rotation at base, and at bat. Sometimes you can do four or five packages at once. Then you sell them as a package ($50 for 6 10x8 images featuring only -mostly- their kid). Best thing of this package, is that it leads to Team Photos, not too long there after someone approaches you and asks "Can you do some pics of the entire team, and then one or two portraits for each player?" School or parents assoc pays, so it is perfect.


Anyhow, that's my experience without writing a book about it.

[cory1848]

My biggest issues, after doing tons of research here and other boards, is getting that permission from the coaches, AD, or league president...I have yet to be able to accomplish that, except at one field, but their season is over now. No one seems to return emails, tough to track down phone numbers...their websites are never updated...

Now I have a portfolio of action shots to show so it might be easier this time around... There is one public field 2 miles from where I live, I got ahold of the Director of Parks and Recreation and they told me its up to the league if I can do this or not. Even though its public, the leagues rent the field from the city. Since they are renting it, I believe the field no longer becomes "public". You can be asked to leave.

One issue I had at the field I shot at previously was visibility. Meaning, I went with the notion that I should blend in rather than going in with a huge sign around my neck that says "Photographer". Think that backfired on me because alot of the parents thought I was a parent just shooting my kid. (I dont have kids). Next time out, I will get a T-shirt made up and be "official" with advertising and all...

From everything I have read, you dont need a release because this doesnt qualify for commercial work. Just make sure you are only selling to the parents and not some sports company...

[poloman]

I get a release because of the possibility of selling after market. (only appropriate uses of course) Also for advertising. The release also gives me personal contact with the Mom or Dad. Doing this can be way too much at large events though.

[PhotoJourno]

IMO, the only way to do it is to actually start doing it. Go to a game, and ask one of the coaches if they could point you out to the little league president. Then just tell them you are a photographer, and would like to take photos of the game if that is ok with them. then get their name and off you go on your merry way. Use his name everytime someone has a doubt, and push onwards.

Releases? Law suits? It's frigging little league!!! Worst case scenario some stuckup lady comes over to you and tells you that thanks they already have a photographer.

The only key is to be straight forward. Never sneaky. so long as everyone sees you with a camera, you will have no problems. (no angry mob, no accussations of taking photos unbeknownst to players and parents).

Really, if you wait for County permission, release form, signature of league president, you're already into the 2011 season.

I say no worries. I have done it in one of the most sensitive states (CA) and never had a problem.

[cory1848]

IMO, the only way to do it is to actually start doing it. Go to a game, and ask one of the coaches if they could point you out to the little league president. Then just tell them you are a photographer, and would like to take photos of the game if that is ok with them. then get their name and off you go on your merry way. Use his name everytime someone has a doubt, and push onwards.

Releases? Law suits? It's frigging little league!!! Worst case scenario some stuckup lady comes over to you and tells you that thanks they already have a photographer.

The only key is to be straight forward. Never sneaky. so long as everyone sees you with a camera, you will have no problems. (no angry mob, no accussations of taking photos unbeknownst to players and parents).

Really, if you wait for County permission, release form, signature of league president, you're already into the 2011 season.

I say no worries. I have done it in one of the most sensitive states (CA) and never had a problem.


Good advice...thanks!

[poloman]

Even if you don't get releases from all, a few are a good idea as then you can post sample prints etc. A release will also allow you to sell that shot of a lifetime.

[amfoto1]

1. Go in person and talk with the people. Emails don't cut it. Just use the websites to find out who to talk with, and perhaps to get an idea when and where they will be and possibly get a phone number.

2. You might shoot a game or two with just verbal permission, but make it your goal to get it in writing. Put together an agreement (contract) that states what you will do for them and gives you exclusivity as the sole commercial photographer at their events. This agreement obligates you, so be prepared to fulfill your obligations.

3. Conversely, if they already have an agreement in place with another photographer, you have to wait until it expires or is otherwise nullified before you can actively shoot and sell. You can still shoot, but only for personal use such as your portfolio... You cannot offer to sell or even give away your prints to the participants and parents, even if they are better than the current work being sold.

If the contracted photographer and organizer find out you are doing so or planning to do so, they can and should ask you to leave, and you will not have made friends or started your relationship off on a very positive footing.

4. Once you have permissions, you don't need model releases just to sell prints to participants.

True, you would need a release from every recognizable individual for most potential commercial usages of your images beyond that.

You don't need a release for most editorial usages of your images.

Keep in mind that a release needs to be signed by a parent or guardian in the case of minors. Also, in order for a release to be valid, you need to tender some valuable consideration to the model (or their parent/guardian).

You are considering starting up a small business... There are a number of considerations in doing so. You might "try your hand" at a couple games to see what potential the business has for success in your area, before getting into the formalities of setting up a small business. But, don't wait too long, or you can expect to have problems later on.

You will likely need to consult a local accountant and attorney to deal with the following.

You may need a business license.

If you sell directly, you may need to collect sales tax.

You may also need to have a means of taking credit card payments.

Some organizations might require you to have proper insurance.

Next stop, Amazon.com to buy a copy of "The Law In Plain English for Photographers".

Now, I'm not trying to discourage you... Hopefully just encourage you to give it a try in a small way, then "do it right" if you are going to go forward with the idea.

[bobbyz]

What I see is that most of times, there is no one for action photos (as little money). Most leagues have person for Photo- Day thing where they make lot more money. I talked to folks at work/friends etc. and go their kids game. I am printing some shots and should have a portfolio book ready to show next weekend.

I also take along my wife, makes it bit easier.

[bobbyz]

Alan - In regards to #3, what I see is that might have an agreement with some photog for T&I etc but nothing about action shots. Even if they have agreements, I never seen photog taking pictures during the whole season. So not sure how to approach this.

[cory1848]

You are considering starting up a small business... There are a number of considerations in doing so. You might "try your hand" at a couple games to see what potential the business has for success in your area, before getting into the formalities of setting up a small business. But, don't wait too long, or you can expect to have problems later on.



Can you elaborate on this? What problems might one expect...?

[musicmaster]

I'm not really looking for a contract though. Just a one/two-time gig, to make a quick buck or two on my off-days at work

[Mike R]

Worth reading

http://www.littleleague.org/media/Proper04.pdf

sorry if this has alerady been posted, I didn't read them all.

[amfoto1]

Bobbyz,

That may be true of team/field sports. I shoot other types of events. I'm there before any of the participants arrive, shoot all day long and am among the last to leave, plus the participants vary a lot from event to event, and events are not weekly like team sports. I imagine team/field sports would be pretty repetitive, so perhaps doesn't need the same time commitment.

Still, I'd want to try to lock up whatever I could with an agreement.

Cory 1848,

Problems? Let's see. How about lawsuits for slander or libel, failure to fulfill an agreement that results in a loss to another party, personal injury... All rare, but possible ... And don't forget failing to structure your business to shelter your personal property from seizure in the event that you are the losing end of a suit.

Losses due to lack of insurance for broken or stolen equipment, personal injury, etc.

Fines for not having a business license. Or failure to properly collect and pay sales taxes (I know a photographer who had to come up with $600,000 to cover mistakes for that one). IRS issues... too many to list here, but start with depreciation, home office deductions, vehicle usage...

Do yourself a favor, buy the book I recommended. It covers these and many, many more possible pitfalls. (NFI, by the way.)

Musicmaster,

Without a contract, it's sort of like inviting all the other wanna be photographers to steal your business. Heck, one response here suggested how easy that would be to do. I simply won't shoot unless I'm the exclusive photog. It's not worth the wear and tear on my equipment or the gas I burn driving to and from the event.

Plus, I'd consider some sort of written agreement to be a professional approach, if I were the client or organizer. An agreement can also spell out what benefits the organizer is getting in return for their commitment, so it's a positive thing, not just a bunch of "restrictions" that are favorable to the photographer.

I just read a thread elsewhere about copyright infringement: A photog gave some of his images to an organizer to use on their website. Now he finds they are selling memorabilia imprinted with some of his shots, and using others in advertising. He should have been paid for those other usages, even if he donated the website rights.

This is the sort of thing that happens when nothing is in writing. It all might have been prevented by an overall agreement hiring him as the photographer, supplemented with proper image licensing agreements.

Once anyone steps across that imaginary line from hobbyist photographer to shooting for money, they really need to change their thinking. It's suddenly 10-15% about taking good photos, 85-90% about business and all the details that come along with that. Even part time.

Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't go out, have some fun and give it a try. But, if you find it to be fun and think you will be continuing to do it, even part time, get serious about the business details and protect yourself.

Another possibility, link up with an established and experienced photographer doing the same thing. You could help them expand their business, and might find a helpful mentor in return.

[cory1848]

Cory 1848,

Problems? Let's see. How about lawsuits for slander or libel, failure to fulfill an agreement that results in a loss to another party, personal injury... All rare, but possible ... And don't forget failing to structure your business to shelter your personal property from seizure in the event that you are the losing end of a suit.

Losses due to lack of insurance for broken or stolen equipment, personal injury, etc.

Fines for not having a business license. Or failure to properly collect and pay sales taxes (I know a photographer who had to come up with $600,000 to cover mistakes for that one). IRS issues... too many to list here, but start with depreciation, home office deductions, vehicle usage...

Do yourself a favor, buy the book I recommended. It covers these and many, many more possible pitfalls. (NFI, by the way.)



Ok, in my very limited experience at shooting soccer, I was no different than any other parent out there with regards to liability. I dont understand where slander or libel fits in...failure to fullfill what agreement? If there is no exclusivity, there is no obligation. My equipment is always on my back so no loss there...
I can understand the business license aspect of it...zenfolio collects tax for me so I am covered there.

I understand where you are coming from and its all good advice, however, it seems like the OP, like me, is just starting out and its a little overkill until things get going and consistent money rolls in.

Again, I have limited experience and can only go off what I know. Just seems like everything you listed only serves to scare off a beginner like myself. I hope one day to be at the level you are at so I can worry about those instances, for I am just concentrating on taking better photos....

I will check out that book. Thanks!

[bobbyz]

I think for someone starting out and doing on a part time basis, things are not that complicated. Business license is not required IMHO. Insurance is nice to have. if you sell through SmugMug/Znefolio etc. you don't have to worry about sales tax. But if you sell directly you can obtain the sales tax id thing and collect sales tax. As long as you report all income/loss to the IRS and don't try to do smart things, you are OK. For starting, I would avoid things like home office deduction, gas mileage thing etc.

All in all good points raised by Alan.

[amfoto1]

Just seems like everything you listed only serves to scare off a beginner like myself...

I will check out that book. Thanks!

Good, I hope it does scare some people a little. If they stop and think, they can avoid most problems.

My point is that once you start accepting pay for the work, your risk and liabilities go through the roof. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't experiment a little and have some fun at it. You will be fine 9,999 times out of 10,000.

I am just saying, that the sooner you get your ducks in a row, the better. It can and will catch up with you eventually. It's that one "oops" that gets you!

The business license thing varies by city and county where you will be working, but isn't open to opinions... it's governed by local laws. Some places are pretty lax. Others aren't. I know this from personal experience (and they found out about my business from my State or Federal Income Tax filings, by the way).

Meanwhile, have fun.

[bobbyz]

Getting business license is not hard. Go to local city hall, fill a form, pay $50 or so and you get one in the mail. IRS doesn't care about license much as long as they get paid, atleast not if you file as sole prop. Having insurance is niec as already mentioned. You don't want any one getting injured (for example) and suing you.

[PhotoJourno]

I feel we are getting all so far ahead of the game !!! (no pun intended).

- Original Thread Poster needs to get out and talk to someone, and photograph a few games.
- Start getting the hang of it.
- Continue to Network socially

That alone will give way to opportunities and necessities that may not be aparent now, but will be certain then.

Right now we are talking about the Company design on the Jacket embroidery, when we haven't even received the camera from B&H !!..
(Corp Class C or Sole proprietorship? Hang on!!.. let's see if he/she gets used to taking these photos. Summer little league can be grueling when you take 4-6 games a day and more).

Focus on now. One step at a time. It is only one step that leads to another.

Most are valid points, but in my view they just complicate the simple path ahead.

[K8tilyn]

I have been interrested in trying this for some time.. I do my kids sports pics and i think they are very good. I do some Casual Senior Portraits, but nothing i can quit my job over. i've wondered about licensing my business, but i really dont make any 'money' to speak of. I think the licensing is what scares me away. Because i really know nothing about running a business.. If i have to pay taxes on the payments i recieve. is this done quarterly or yearly.. If i set up a website to sell my sports shots, they will take care of the taxes, then i dont have to worry about that.. I seriously may just have to jump in with both feet and hope the perana dont eat me..lol..

I like your ideas for the sports pics.. the flyers is a good idea.. our Soccer season is coming up very soon, and so are school sports.

I should just bite the bullet and get the licensing over with and learn as i go.. I have so many ideas, that i have dabbled with but cant seem to get them to take off. I think i'm waiting for something to prove it is a moneymaker before i'm sure i can do this..but.. If i'm official, i wont be so worried about the legal aspects of things and i can advertise and get my name out there, so people know who the hell i am! I dont know if you guys have convinced me, from reading your posts or i've convinced myself..lol..

but any feedback on starting a business and all that legal crap, would be so appreciated..
& how about some sample ideas on those flyers.. :)

thanks K:)

[K8tilyn]

tried the link http://www.littleleague.org/media/Proper04.pdfk wouldn't come thru. site moved or some bs.. anyone got another link??

[tnygrasso]

Try http://www.littleleague.org than goto Media uper right.
Tony

[eigga]

Most leagues have a contract with a photographer for all portraits and action regardless if they are there or not. Check that first.

Most leagues require liability insurance on file. Check that next.

[beattyphotography]

Man I feel really sorry for you guys. We don't have photographer ****'s around here. Networking is key. Never be scared to show up if you want to shoot just go do it. Be interactive while you're there. Close play and second and you catch it show the yelling fan the ump blew the call and you'll get plenty of free advertisement. "HEY UMP he's got it right here on film!" Then everybody looks your way and you just smile. Talk about the game, tell them who you are, get people to like you, and give them your business cards in the process. I've never met a mad parent because I'm capturing the best pictures they've ever seen of their little Johnny playing sports. Now Girls sports is a different matter, I only shoot if asked.

[bobbyz]

k8tilyn - Licensing is easy. People make it sound something big. At least here in CA, you just go to your city hall, fill a form and you get a lincese for your business in a mail. Cost soemthing like $50 per yr. You don't even need a license per see, but it is nice to have.

[bobbyz]

Why it is OK to shoot boy sports but not girls sports without asking first?

Personally I would ask in both cases.

[dinanm3atl]

Why it is OK to shoot boy sports but not girls sports without asking first?

Personally I would ask in both cases.

If you are a male shooting little girls gymnastics and you are not a parent you are immediately assumed to be child raping pedophile.

That is the world today.