A little problem with the photographer...

[Tumeg]

Problem Solved, Please close\lock this thread!

[Box Brownie]

Hi Brad

I think you may be between a rock & a hard place ~ i.e. no formal written agreement on either the possible use of any of the images for your portfolio or the payment arrangements. You say she is a friend? Well there is an old saying in business that there are no such things as friends.

Having said that why not just ask her why the pay is low based on your understanding of the hours worked and the verbally agreed figure, perhaps her timekeeping is bad ;)

Anything you do is your call IMO and what you say should be cool,calm & collected not when you are feeling stoked about the (apparent) short money.

So, go and have a chat with her and just sort it out if you can :D

Note - the above is just my opinion as if I were in your shoes!

Oh, what are the laws in the USA/state about employing what in the UK at 15 would I think still be deemed a minor. AFAIK we have very strict laws on minimum wages and maximum hours worked?

[KIPAX]

even if she has deleted off the card.. a good data recovery program will probably find them :)

[Tumeg]

Hi Brad

I think you may be between a rock & a hard place ~ i.e. no formal written agreement on either the possible use of any of the images for your portfolio or the payment arrangements. You say she is a friend? Well there is an old saying in business that there are no such things as friends.

Having said that why not just ask her why the pay is low based on your understanding of the hours worked and the verbally agreed figure, perhaps her timekeeping is bad ;)

Anything you do is your call IMO and what you say should be cool,calm & collected not when you are feeling stoked about the (apparent) short money.

So, go and have a chat with her and just sort it out if you can :D

Note - the above is just my opinion as if I were in your shoes!

Oh, what are the laws in the USA/state about employing what in the UK at 15 would I think still be deemed a minor. AFAIK we have very strict laws on minimum wages and maximum hours worked?

Thanks, yeah, I might just take some time and right out a calm response (haha)...
I am actually not positive on the laws in the US regarding employment.. But you can get a job at the age of 13 or 14 (just depends on who will hire someone so young, but at that age you can legally get a job). But we do have maximum hours minors (below 18) can work, I don't think there is a wage limit when you are a minor, but their might be (I heard if you make more than $600/yr you have to pay taxes,

[Tumeg]

even if she has deleted off the card.. a good data recovery program will probably find them :)

True... Do the Sandisk Ultra II cf card come with a recovery CD? I am pretty sure the Extreme III cards do, but idk about the Ultra II...
Guess I will be looking for the packaging...

If it does not come with one, does anyone know of a good, free, recovery program?

[Box Brownie]

Check out ZAR http://www.z-a-recovery.com/digital-image-recovery.htm I have the original free tool so have read and see what you think. The last time I used it it woked very well.

Incidently should you recover any images it may stil be questionable whether you are permitted to use them in your portfolio without some formal permission???

:)

[Tumeg]

I actually mainly just want to see how my new camera performed (I got a 40D 3 days before the wedding), and it was held at a huge Mormon temple in San Diego, so my parents want to see the photos. Thanks for the link, I will try it asap.

I just wrote up a polite, 2 paragraph e-mail discussing the images, and the pay. Hope it all gets straightened out without any harm. If she becomes difficult, I will quit for sure.

[cory1848]

I can attest to data recovery. Saved me butt once, I recovered 150 photos from a disk that was accidentally deleted but by camera... Might be a little tougher if it was formatted though.

First thing is to talk with her. She might have kept you under 8 hours a day to meet work requirements, however that shouldnt mean she doesnt pay you what you agreed on.

good luck

[Tumeg]

I actually took around 100-200 photos since getting the card back, but never formated the card... I took around 1,120 photos at the wedding, so I may still be able to recover 800-1,000

Wish me luck!

[Tumeg]

She has told me she miss-counted the money she put into the envelope, and she will give me the missing money asap.

As for the photos, she said I don't have any rights to the photos, that's why she removed them all.
This part, I disagree with. We have no agreement in writing saying she has the rights, but then again we had no written agreement that I would be paid. But seriously, I just wanted to see the shots to see how my camera performed, and she is still not letting up on her idea of all rights. This is really bothersome to me.

[tracknut]

.... that is why I am being paid "under the table" so nobody really knows I have a job, lol)

Probably not best form to admit criminal acts publicly on an internet forum... both of you could get in trouble, and it's not worth it. If you owe the tax, pay the tax.

Dave

[cory1848]

She has told me she miss-counted the money she put into the envelope, and she will give me the missing money asap.

As for the photos, she said I don't have any rights to the photos, that's why she removed them all.
This part, I disagree with. We have no agreement in writing saying she has the rights, but then again we had no written agreement that I would be paid. But seriously, I just wanted to see the shots to see how my camera performed, and she is still not letting up on her idea of all rights. This is really bothersome to me.

I guess thats where the written contract comes in place. Generally, if she "hired" you, that is the case. It is a work for hire agreement.

As far as being paid under the table, you have up to $600yr before you need to file for taxes anyways. Its actually in the best interest of the photog that hired you to not pay you under the table as she loses any possible tax write offs for hiring you in the first place.

[Tumeg]

I guess thats where the written contract comes in place. Generally, if she "hired" you, that is the case. It is a work for hire agreement.

As far as being paid under the table, you have up to $600yr before you need to file for taxes anyways. Its actually in the best interest of the photog that hired you to not pay you under the table as she loses any possible tax write offs for hiring you in the first place.

She actually writes it off as "other expenses" (Or something like that, lol) I guess we will just wait to see if we get in trouble >.<

So far it looks like the recovery is going well, it says 1355 files found (just about the right amount, including the 1.1k wedding shots and 200 since then).

[musicmaster]

post a few if you get them recovered

[Tumeg]

Here is a slight problem.....

She told me she doesn't have any of the photos anymore (except for 92 of them) because they were all so bad\unsalvagable, that she just deleted them. She told me they were blurry, horrible blurry... Which is not possible! I used my new 40D (which in tests that I ran, is MUCH sharper then my prev XTi) which, with the setting I was using (the preset, or w\e) I boosted sharpness a bit. I also zoomed in 100% on the preview photos on the LCD, about every 10-50 photos I took, and they were as sharp as they get! AND my shutter speed never went below 1/200! (With my 50mm f/1.4)
So either she is lieing to me, so I never shoot weddings with her again, so she doesn't have to pay me (basically her way of firing me) or I just really do suck.

She also told me that there was no point in running a recovery program because she formated my card before giving it back. And this is a lie, I went to the format option of the card, on my camera (before I shot anything on it) and saw that there was some room being hogged up (like there always is when you delete photos). And the recovery program has located 1355 files, nothing wrong with any of them (it is just taking a long time to I guess, bring them up to the surface). So either she lied about that just so I don't get my photos back, or what....

But it is to my understanding that she said almost the exact same thing to me, as she did to a previous friend\assistant\2nd shooter of hers (who is now 17 and is making over $10k a year with photography)! He is more of a professional than she is, and she basically told him he sucked (almost the same words she just told to me).
So not sure what she is thinking in that crazy mind of hers, but so far, I have found several lies.

She also told me she would bring the cash over to my place later tonight, but it is 8pm and so far, no sign of her coming... (Except for the several messages of her saying she was going to come by to give me the cash).

Anyway, I will update everyone as it happens (if ya'all want me to)

I wont upload the photos just because I don't want to get in trouble with the b&g or my friend\photographer... But if I do recover the photos, and they do not suck (as much as she has described) then I will post them for sure, just to shove it in her face... haha

[Rick Rosen]

Brad,

Find someone else to second shoot for. It sounds like she's not being honest with you.

You might want to check out our local PPA affiliate group and attend some meetings. That would be a great place to network with experienced wedding photographers.

http://www.ppoc.org/

Rick

[FlyingPhotog]

As far as being paid under the table, you have up to $600yr before you need to file for taxes anyways. Its actually in the best interest of the photog that hired you to not pay you under the table as she loses any possible tax write offs for hiring you in the first place.

This is not correct.

An employer may generate a 1099 for any amount but they must do so for an amount above $600.

I once received a 1099 from an employer for $50...

[Stocky]

Paying you DOES NOT make the images hers.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ9.html#determining

You specifically stated that there was no contract, so they are not her pictures. Plain and simple. I don't think there is anything wrong with being nice about it since thats a whole lot more money than I ever made mowing lawns in high school, but if you do want to make an issue out of it then the law is on your side. You can use any of the pictures you want in your portfolio, and she can't actually print them unless you give her permission.

[cory1848]

This is not correct.

An employer may generate a 1099 for any amount but they must do so for an amount above $600.

I once received a 1099 from an employer for $50...


What exactly is not correct about what I stated? They can issue it, doesnt mean you have to pay taxes on it.

[Maddog12]

You said you were able to recover some of the photos, right?

If so, just forget about it, dont shoot with that person anymore, and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

In my opinion the juice is not worth the squeeze in this case.

We all mistakes, it's how we learn from those mistakes that sets a lot of us apart.

KEEP SHOOTING

[OdiN1701]

I can attest to data recovery. Saved me butt once, I recovered 150 photos from a disk that was accidentally deleted but by camera... Might be a little tougher if it was formatted though.

First thing is to talk with her. She might have kept you under 8 hours a day to meet work requirements, however that shouldnt mean she doesnt pay you what you agreed on.

good luck

If the camera treats the card as a computer would, then even formatting should be easily recoverable.

All formatting does is delete the file allocation table (if you do a quick format). Basically it just tells the card that it's empty again. The files are still there, just not referenced. Good recovery software can find the beginning and end of each file and save them.

As to the situation - you have no written agreement. You doing anything with the files is questionable. You need to get a written agreement ASAP. At the least you should be able to use your own images in your own portfolio. Of course the primary photog will want to pick out images on her own and do her own editing and make sure they are up to her standard before giving them to her client.

But without an agreement, you are out of luck.

[PhotosGuy]

As for the photos, she said I don't have any rights to the photos, that's why she removed them all.
This part, I disagree with. We have no agreement in writing saying she has the rights You're right:
Corporate Photography
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=414272

work-made-for-hire statutes
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=403625
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4400919&postcount=19

Securing, Managing, and Sharing the Legal Rights
http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/youright.htm#MFH

Securing, Managing, and Sharing the Legal Rights (http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/youright.htm#MFH)
the work may still be deemed a work-made-for-hire only if it is specially ordered or commissioned and the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by both of them that the work shall be considered a work-made-for-hire. This rule applies only to certain types of works. Read the work-made-for-hire statutes for more information.

[bham]

So Tumeg, were you able to recover any photos??

[amfoto1]

Yet another post illustrating why verbal agreements are only worth about as much as the paper they are written on.

Here's a thought.... Perhaps all her images from the wedding are crap and she is planning to print up and sell yours as if they were hers. Or, perhaps yours are better than hers and she doesn't want to admit it to her customers... Or she simply wants to supplement hers with yours, claiming they are all hers and keeping all future profits from any print sales.

If she's told you she couldn't use any of your shots because they were all out of focus, chances are she's told the same thing to the bride and groom, if they happened to ask to see the photos from "that other photographer".

Yes, it sounds as if you still own the copyright on the photos you took, since you never formally signed anything assigning it to anyone else. So, she really has no right to use your photos in any way.

Once you have recovered them, you will be able to prove that you took them. Obviously your "friend" removed them from your card solely so that she could claim they were hers and deny you made them. There is really no other reason for her to do so. Her real mistake was returning your CF card. Had she kept it or destroyed it (sounds as if you had no proof it was yours or that you gave it to her), you wouldn't have any hope of recovering images from the card at all.

Yeah, if I were her I would try to discourage you from recovering your images, too, either by telling you the card was formatted or by telling you they simply weren't any good. Because if you recover them, you will have proof that you took them, not her.

If I were you, I wouldn't ever work with that photographer again, let alone call her a "friend". She is obviously a con and a thief.... And highly unprofessional as a photographer, too, since she should have presented you with a written agreement that spelled everything out in advance.

Once you have the images recovered and proof of ownership in hand you can send her a registered, return receipt "cease and desist" letter denying her use of any of your images in any way. Be sure register your copyright on the images right away, too. Then, if she does use them anyway without your written approval and you find out about it, you will own her.

Now, I'm not an attorney, but if I were writing the letter it would be something like:

"It is my understanding that you are now or have been in possession of digital files of photographic images, or digital or printed copies thereof, which I made on such and such date at such and such location, with image file numbers beginning with such and such and ending with such and such, which I made with my camera which has a unique serial number that is encoded into each image's file data. Please be reminded and informed that I own all rights to the images described above, that my copyright on them has been legally registered with the US Copyright office, and that any usage of my images in any way not approved in advance and in writing by me would potentially be subject legal action, as is afforded me by US and International Copyright Law for protection of my intellectual property. Should you wish, I will be happy to discuss with you limited, licensed usage of my images and my fees for various usages."

You have no means of collecting additional hourly payments from her, but it works both ways. She has no proof that she paid you, or even that she hired and agreed to pay you. So, while you probably won't get the rest you are owed if you take this tack (it sounds unlikely anyway), she really has no recourse to come after you in any way regarding what she has paid so far, either.

So, I suspect you can keep the money you have been paid. That is, if you feel okay about it... If you feel that it is fair to keep, considering the work you did.

She breached your verbal agreement by not paying you as agreed, so any "contract" would be null and void in it's entirety, even if someone witnessed the verbal agreement and it could be proven in court, which is pretty unlikely.

Was there any agreement that she would pay you something additional for any prints the B&G ordered from your images?

If she needs to use some of your images to fulfill her agreement with the B&G (bet she has a contract with them!), you might have her over a barrel now, where she has to pay you on a per image basis, at whatever price you might choose to ask for your, copyrighted images! Notice I left that door open in the "cease and desist" letter above.

Now, this all is some major "bridge burning", so be absolutely sure of three things before you do anything suggested: One is that you are right and completely accurate in all respects of what you have told us. A second is that you really have no prospects of ever again working with this photographer (sounds to be the case, if you know of another photog she pulled the same tricks on... which leads me to ask why your weren't forewarned about working with her?). Finally, even if she is a liar, thief and con, if she is established as a wedding photographer anyway and her "dark side" isn't widely known or is "overlooked" by her peers, she might be in a position to blackball you from work with other established photogs in the future.

Think hard and long about all this before you do anything.

I hope you have learned to get it all down in writing, clearly and in advance. This includes the agreement to act as an assistant/2nd shooter, plus a receipt for your CF card before you handed it over.

I'd also suggest that you not shoot with one large CF card. Convenient, yes, but if there is ever a glitch with it, you will have lost an entire day's shoot. I carry ten or twelve CF cards, in sizes that give me roughly 200-250 shots per card in my cameras. That way if one card happens to be lost or damaged in any way, I don't lose an entire day's work. It's very dangerous to put "all your eggs in one basket".

[Tumeg]

Thanks everyone for all the help!
I recovered about 1,102 shots from the wedding, and I remember shooting around 1,120'ish, so I did recover many of them. I went through and deleted blurry\underxposed\overexposed shots, and narrowed those 1102 down to 350. The shots are NOTHING like she described. They are NOT blurry, they are NOT ruined.
I will most likely be quiting, but not until I get the remaining $60 from her. I will write up a nice long e-mail informing her about the rights of the photos, and proving to her that SHE is in the wrong and that I COULD take legal action against her, but I am only 15, and I have been paid under the table (I have a feeling that if someone finds out about that, I could be in some deep doo doo, haha) so I don't really want to take legal action, because than I could be in some trouble.

Thanks everyone for the links, the support, the information, and the encouragement.

I was informed that she did the same thing to a previous assistant, and he and I are now good friends, he did warn me about it, but I ignored it, because at the time everyone was going well until this last shoot.

Again, thanks for all the links! I will be reading up on all this and composing a nice long letter to send her. Thanks again!!

[Tumeg]

To answer a few questions:

-If the photographer sells my photos, I do not get any cut of the profits, or any recognition.
-I don't mind quitting, the photographer she backstabbed (like she did to me) is willing to hire me for more than she is paying me, and I have more "bonuses" than I do\did. I will also be signing a contract with this photographer so nothing like this happens again.

[sevillafox]

I don't think you can get in trouble for getting paid cash as long as you report it on your taxes if you earned over so much this year. She however could get in trouble for you not having a work permit and if she violated child labor laws. In WI I know kids can only work x amount of hours on a school night and x amount of hours on the weekend days not to exceed a certain maximum per week based on your age. You could search CA child labor laws if you are curious. Regardless, you won't get in any trouble if you report the small amount you were paid. She could get in trouble if she violated child labor laws. As your "employer" it is her responsibilty to keep things legal that way.

[amfoto1]

Do not, I repeat, do not send her any more emails. Email has no legal basis and can serve as nothing more than a pissing contest.

Type up a letter regarding the copyright on your images, then go to the post office, register it and get a return receipt. That will be necessary to prove she received it.

You will never collect it the $60, so I wouldn't even try. You don't have a legal leg to stand on, so just take the loss as a lesson learned.

In fact, if you mention any of your illegal payment arrangements in correspondence with her, that might be used against you.

There are two types of documents you might sign with any other photogs you work with in the future:

One would be an open-ended or long term employment contract, hiring you on a regular basis and probably assigning all your work done while "on the clock" over to them. That would probably also include a non-compete clause and perhaps other restrictions. This type of agreement is generally most favorable to the employer, at the expense of the employee.

The other would be some sort separate, limited scope and short term agreement for each gig where you assist/2nd shoot. This would be much more flexible and could be tailored to each job, so that it's more fair to all involved.

Don't accept any agreement just because it's in writing. It's open to negotiation.

Finally, I believe you said you aren't 18 years old yet, so you actually can't sign a legally binding contract or agreement anyway. It has to be signed on your behalf by a parent or guardian. That's probably good, they can vet it for you and ask you questions to be sure you aren't getting taken advantage of again.

[Kadath]

This person sounds like a USER and I would run far far away and not worry about being RIGHT or worrying about the $60. Chalk it up as a learning lesson. Sounds like its her photos that suck and she has been using the seconds and representing them as her own, and getting into a public peeing match with someone like that is likely to cause a lot more damage to you than to her. It may feel like you are being a wimp or letting her win, but protecting your reputation before you even get started has to be worth that $60 and you have a whole checklist of things you know to do differently next time.

[Tumeg]

Just went through the shots again, narrowed the 350 down to 195... I have edited through about 45, still going through and doing basic editing... (Not sure why I am editing them, I am not really going to post them anywhere...)

[Box Brownie]

Brad

Just curious? Setting aside any actions you feel you need to/will take with all the knowledgeable advice giving by the other posters.

Has she a website of online proofs that are publically accessible so that you can see what is being 'offered' to the B&G? If so that will be one quick and ready way to see if she has used any of the shots you took and possibly even the proportion of each (1st & 2nd shooter) used in the proof set!

All the best :)

[Tumeg]

She does have a site, but not a public proofing site, nor are any of the photos from the wedding on her site (yet). But from a previous wedding, I found her using several of my photographs on there without giving any credit to me (in one of them, she did give me credit, but there are about 4 others in which she gives no credit to me).

[Box Brownie]

She does have a site, but not a public proofing site, nor are any of the photos from the wedding on her site (yet). But from a previous wedding, I found her using several of my photographs on there without giving any credit to me (in one of them, she did give me credit, but there are about 4 others in which she gives no credit to me).

Hmmm!!!! OK just a few thoughts for you.

1) I would ensure to take screen grabs of the pages where your images currently appear.

2) Before taking any actions (if you decide to) wait for her to post anything of the wedding you attended that has caused to rift and as above take screen grabs.

3) With the above and with the associated image files recovered (with those already to hand from previous weddings already posted) you will have 'hard' evidence that your work is good enough and that she is using it to gain profit.

3a) This helps IMO in two ways. Firstly if you decide to take action you have some proof and secondly you are getting exposure (no pun intended) in the public domain of the quality of your work i.e. a portfolio that you have not paid for ;)

[Tumeg]

Can anyone post some more links to some true sites that state the copyright laws clearly?

Also, I have read through the posts a few times, and can't really see what you guys are saying.... Is this, or is it no a work for hire? If it is, or isn't, does that mean she doesn't have any rights to the photos?
I need this info for the letter I will be sending her shortly...

[Tumeg]

Hmmm!!!! OK just a few thoughts for you.

1) I would ensure to take screen grabs of the pages where your images currently appear.

2) Before taking any actions (if you decide to) wait for her to post anything of the wedding you attended that has caused to rift and as above take screen grabs.

3) With the above and with the associated image files recovered (with those already to hand from previous weddings already posted) you will have 'hard' evidence that your work is good enough and that she is using it to gain profit.

3a) This helps IMO in two ways. Firstly if you decide to take action you have some proof and secondly you are getting exposure (no pun intended) in the public domain of the quality of your work i.e. a portfolio that you have not paid for ;)

Just did that, and will do it when she uploads some photos :)

[mr_e]

Based on what you've said this would not fall under work for hire, and you still retain all rights to your photos

The US Copyright Office's website
http://www.copyright.gov/

I'm not a lawyer though

[SuzyView]

Brad, I feel sorry that you did not communicate with the photographer on the issue of rights or really set out the pay before you left the wedding. This is where the pro may not treat you as you expect, but assuming anything is bad business form. Before you burn bridges that may lead to places that will help you, take a moment and think about your reputation. I know sometimes it's easy to say someone is doing you wrong, but give her the benefit and really talk it out. You can have a win-win situation here. And you are correct, those pictures are yours as well. She should not have taken your card and delete the images. A photographer has the right to review their own work, IMO. I would not want my pictures represented without at least seeing them first.

Good luck and I think you need to decide if a contract would benefit you in the future. My hubby is an attorney, so people don't mess with me, I get free counsel. But for you, know your rights before getting involved in another session.

[jrobert]

Brad,
Did you have any expectation going into this, that the photos would be yours and you would not have given her full rights to them (other than possibly, your copyright) in exchange for your day's pay?

If not, you might just want to take the high road here - hold out for the pay that you are owed - but let go of everything else, such as financial interest in the photos, even your copyright, if that helps keep the peace. It sounds like you would like to continue doing this kind of work, probably in this community, and getting into a p***ing contest with someone already established in the community, regardless of their reputation or behavior, is not going to further your goals. I might hold out the possibility of one or more of the actions recommended up-thread to encourage her to pay you, and only after more civil means failed. Otherwise you may burn bridges worth more to you than anything that might come out of this job. It sounds like you already have some other useful contacts. I'd do my best to recover the money owed without alienating anyone, and either way, just walk away a wiser man.

[OdiN1701]

Just went through the shots again, narrowed the 350 down to 195... I have edited through about 45, still going through and doing basic editing... (Not sure why I am editing them, I am not really going to post them anywhere...)

So what do you think of the quality of them?

[SBCmetroguy]

Just because she feels you don't own the rights to the photos (which I personally believe you do,) what gives HER the right to delete something from YOUR personal property? You do own the CF card, so she has tampered with your property.

Sorry if the above has been said already... I didn't read the entire thread.

[scorpio_e]

Here is a slight problem.....

She told me she doesn't have any of the photos anymore (except for 92 of them) because they were all so bad\unsalvagable, that she just deleted them. She told me they were blurry, horrible blurry...

I guess since all of the photos were horrible then she should have no problem with you using them in your portfolio. Some people really suck. In my opinion, since there was no written contract, you have every right to display your work. If making money with your photography is a road you are pursuing, then you need work to show in your portfolio.
I would use the photos and stay clear of her.

Good luck !!

Ed

[PhotosGuy]

Re ©: You can put them all on a CD & register them together for $45. In fact, if you mention any of your illegal payment arrangements in correspondence with her, that might be used against you. Used to be & may still be that you could make $600 without having to report it, so you may be OK. Also, I have read through the posts a few times, and can't really see what you guys are saying.... Is this, or is it no a work for hire? NO, it isn't. - but let go of everything else, such as financial interest in the photos, even your copyright, if that helps keep the peace. Reminds me of Neville Chamberlain's (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9022309/Neville-Chamberlain) policy before WWII? Stand up for your rights, then forget about her. You already have a better deal with the other photographer & the more you give in to this one, the more she'll push for an advantage.

[souporman]

I just want to see a few of the photos already! ;)

[narlus]

I actually took around 100-200 photos since getting the card back, but never formated the card... I took around 1,120 photos at the wedding, so I may still be able to recover 800-1,000

Wish me luck!


taking more photos over data you want to recover is worse than subsequent reformatting.

still you will probably be able to salvage a fair bit of them.

[Kadath]

Can anyone post some more links to some true sites that state the copyright laws clearly?


http://www.photoattorney.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Legal-Handbook-Photographers-Rights-Liabilities/dp/1584281944/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212601890&sr=8-10

[g-money]

I'd also suggest that you not shoot with one large CF card. Convenient, yes, but if there is ever a glitch with it, you will have lost an entire day's shoot. I carry ten or twelve CF cards, in sizes that give me roughly 200-250 shots per card in my cameras. That way if one card happens to be lost or damaged in any way, I don't lose an entire day's work. It's very dangerous to put "all your eggs in one basket".

Brad, Hopefully things will work out for you and you put this behind you as a lesson learned. I know you will.

I did want to second what amfoto suggested. Cards will fail. I know. I was second shooting for a good friend a few weeks back. We have worked together many times and he has full trust in me. He put me in charge of shooting the groom and his groomsmen. Then the groom with the bridesmaids. We were in two differnet locations across town prior to the wedding. I took every shot on the shot list plus many others. After the wedding I went to dump them and burn them to disk for him and when I got to that disk I only had about 20 images on it????? All files corrupted. Even the camera would not read them. They were there at one time as I chimp a lot ;) Thanks goodness this was only a 2 gig card. I felt really bad about this but know $hit happens. This time only a couple gigs was lost. Had I been the main losing 2 gigs worht of shots would be hard enough to explain much less if everything was on one disk and I lost the entire wedding.I don't want to have to make that phonecall.

Greg

[OdiN1701]

I echo what the others say about the memory cards.

I have an 8GB and a couple 4GB which are rather large, but I tend to cycle them so I get some of each type of shot on each, etc. If the worst happens then I should have something. Though during the middle of a ceremony it's hard to swap.

I also use ONLY SanDisk cards. Have been very pleased with them. I also replace ALL of my memory cards every 2-3 years, whether I think they need it or not. I can usually sell the older ones online...people pick them up who aren't pro photogs so it's not as a huge thing to them.

[bigjon0107]

OK, i am surprised i did not see this already suggested. But register your images with the copyright office. It will allow you to recover lawyer fees and punitive damages. If you don't, i can almost guarantee you that you will loose money on the deal. You would only be able to recover your actual damages...which in your case would be very very little since you are not even in contact with the people who want the images....even if you are able to get her print sales profits out of it, you will still be in the hole.

With that said, i would not take any legal action what-so-ever. Just let it lay where it is, and take it as a lesson learned. The wedding/pro photographers world in pretty small in most areas (Even in Dallas where i am from, we all have at least heard of each other for the most part...and that is a heck of a lot of people). If you start to burn your bridge here, that info will spread pretty quick around the circles you want to be in. So take that into consideration as well. But, if she does something really stupid in the near future...and i mean really dumb, then i would do something about it. More then likely the other photogs in the area will be able to see it from you side at that point.

[DocFrankenstein]

Thanks everyone for all the help!
I recovered about 1,102 shots from the wedding, and I remember shooting around 1,120'ish, so I did recover many of them. I went through and deleted blurry\underxposed\overexposed shots, and narrowed those 1102 down to 350. The shots are NOTHING like she described. They are NOT blurry, they are NOT ruined.
I will most likely be quiting, but not until I get the remaining $60 from her. I will write up a nice long e-mail informing her about the rights of the photos, and proving to her that SHE is in the wrong and that I COULD take legal action against her, but I am only 15, and I have been paid under the table (I have a feeling that if someone finds out about that, I could be in some deep doo doo, haha) so I don't really want to take legal action, because than I could be in some trouble.

Thanks everyone for the links, the support, the information, and the encouragement.

I was informed that she did the same thing to a previous assistant, and he and I are now good friends, he did warn me about it, but I ignored it, because at the time everyone was going well until this last shoot.

Again, thanks for all the links! I will be reading up on all this and composing a nice long letter to send her. Thanks again!!
1) Register your images with the national library of congress, this way they're copywritten. Chances are, she hasn't done it yet.
2) If you're 15, you might not even be able to work.
3) You certainly can't sign a legal agreement without your parents
4) The court will side with you, since she's the employer and she's an adult. You're an employee and a minor.
5) Her behavior seems unethical, so I'd try and make her regret it.

[jrobert]

Reminds me of Neville Chamberlain's (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9022309/Neville-Chamberlain) policy before WWII? Stand up for your rights, then forget about her. You already have a better deal with the other photographer & the more you give in to this one, the more she'll push for an advantage.Your mis-characterization is patently offensive.
Note that I did not suggest kissing up to the former employer. I did suggest attempting to collect what she clearly owes him, and not deliberately antagonizing her for little or no gain and the possibility of jeopardizing new opportunities - such as the one you yourself refer to.

[PaulBradley]

No, I would be looking to deliberately antogonize her - she sounds like a total ****.

[amfoto1]

Hi again Brad,

Since nothing is in writing this cannot possibly be a "work made for hire" situation. So, again, there has been no transfer of your copyright ownership. Her use of your images is in violation of your rights as the creator of those images... period. You, not she, are entitled to any earnings from those images.

If she has images of yours up on her website, she is under no obligation to give you credit for them, unless that were a stipulation agreed to in writing in an agreement between you two.

However, assuming the same deal was going on at that previous event and nothing was put down or agreed to in writing, she is violating your copyright with those images, too. If you can prove it, say with the original files in your possession, you can 1. stop her from using your images in any way, 2. possibly recover any profits made in the sale of those images, if you are willing to pursue it legally (this might cost more than it's worth) 3. possibly recover punitive damages (which may make legal action worthwhile, since you can recover legal expenses too, but only if your images' copyright has been registered within 3 months of the date of first publication. Her posting the images on her website constitutes "publication".)

First thing you should do right now is make screen shots of all your images that are appearing on her website and offered for sale. Also make a record of her pricing, if it's posted online. And, watch carefully for more of you images - especially from this recent event - to appear there.

Now, go to Amazon.com and buy a copy of "The Law in Plain English for Photographers". You need to learn about many of the legal aspects of photography, both to keep from being taken advantage of, and to avoid missteps that you might make yourself in the future.

Google the US Copyright office's website and read the rules for yourself.

Stop blogging about this right now and get your copyright on all your images registered ! It's not a big deal and you can pack a huge number of thumbnails of your images onto a DVD to submit all at one time, not just the images she's using. The cost is the same, so you might as well register as many images as possible at one time. Info on exactly how to do this is at the government website.

Once that's done, you might consult an attorney to see if you have a case to pursue compensations from her... Not the wages she agreed to verbally but didn't pay completely, I don't think you stand a chance recovering those and they are very small potatoes anyway... Compensations for the infringements on your copyrights.

As much as I hate to see anyone giving the photography business a bad name like she is I tend to think the best thing to do is just avoid her in the future, after you have put a stop to her infringing on your copyright. She likely pulls similar unethical crap with her clients too and she will probably self destruct without you having to do much of anything. And, if you were successful legally pursuing compensations for her improper use of your copyrights, you might put her out of business in the process.

Someone else suggested trying to get a look at albums and prints she's delivered to customers whose weddings you helped shoot, to see if they've bought some of your images. That has to be done carefully and tactfully, so as not to alert her yet, and to keep the customers insulated from the issue (It's not their fault she's an unethical photographer... Actually criminal, I suppose, since what we are talking about is theft).

Have you started writing up that "cease and desist" letter yet? It's one of the first steps you have to take. (Might want to hold off on sending it, until you have your images' copyright registered and have plenty of solid evidence that she's using and selling your images.)

So, log off of POTN and get busy!

[caroleigh]

She has told me she miss-counted the money she put into the envelope, and she will give me the missing money asap.

As for the photos, she said I don't have any rights to the photos, that's why she removed them all.
This part, I disagree with. We have no agreement in writing saying she has the rights, but then again we had no written agreement that I would be paid. But seriously, I just wanted to see the shots to see how my camera performed, and she is still not letting up on her idea of all rights. This is really bothersome to me.

Your camera, you took the pictures, there is nothing in writing, did you pay taxes on the money she paid you? I believe you hold copyright to those photos.... and you are allowing her to use them. I could be wrong, but, if she didnt have you sign anything then legally there isnt anything she can do. She cant even prove you worked for her, she paid you cash money. Theres no pay stub, she didnt deduct taxes from a paycheck.

[caroleigh]

Thanks everyone for all the help!
I recovered about 1,102 shots from the wedding, and I remember shooting around 1,120'ish, so I did recover many of them. I went through and deleted blurry\underxposed\overexposed shots, and narrowed those 1102 down to 350. The shots are NOTHING like she described. Tproving to her that SHE is in the wrong and that I COULD take legal action against her, but I am only 15, and I have been paid under the table hey are NOT blurry, they are NOT ruined.
I will most likely be quiting, but not until I get the remaining $60 from her. I will write up a nice long e-mail informing her about the rights of the photos, and (I have a feeling that if someone finds out about that, I could be in some deep doo doo, haha) so I don't really want to take legal action, because than I could be in some trouble.

Thanks everyone for the links, the support, the information, and the encouragement.

I was informed that she did the same thing to a previous assistant, and he and I are now good friends, he did warn me about it, but I ignored it, because at the time everyone was going well until this last shoot.

Again, thanks for all the links! I will be reading up on all this and composing a nice long letter to send her. Thanks again!!

I'm pretty sure It's up to the employer to deduct taxes from your paycheck, or send a 1099.... so ... as far as you know you assisted her legally.

[Tumeg]

I have read everything, and I am starting to question what I should do.
For a while, I was positive I would quit, point out how she is\was wrong, and possibly even take legal action.
But now, I am wondering if I shouldn't just let it go! I need the money, and I would like the experience (but then again, she won't let me have any of the photos to prove my experience, lol). I do have another photographer looking to hire me when I quit, but he may not be as busy as this other photographer was. As in, I may not have as many shoots, and I may not get paid as much. But this other photographer would basically share rights with me (basically, he could use the photos any way he wants, and sell them, while I can use them on my site, without giving him any credit).

Anyway, I am still leaning towards quitting and doing all the other stuff, but I am not positive!
As some have said, I should just let it go and mark it as a lesson learned, but I don't like letting people think they are right, when they are not! Ugh...

[DocFrankenstein]

I have read everything, and I am starting to question what I should do.
For a while, I was positive I would quit, point out how she is\was wrong, and possibly even take legal action.
But now, I am wondering if I shouldn't just let it go! I need the money, and I would like the experience (but then again, she won't let me have any of the photos to prove my experience, lol). I do have another photographer looking to hire me when I quit, but he may not be as busy as this other photographer was. As in, I may not have as many shoots, and I may not get paid as much. But this other photographer would basically share rights with me (basically, he could use the photos any way he wants, and sell them, while I can use them on my site, without giving him any credit).

Anyway, I am still leaning towards quitting and doing all the other stuff, but I am not positive!
As some have said, I should just let it go and mark it as a lesson learned, but I don't like letting people think they are right, when they are not! Ugh...
You can quietly copy the files off the card, right? Just get one of those portable hard drives for CF cards.

The experience of being a second shooter is a very valuable, if you're actually planning to make a career out of photography and not be a lawyer/doctor.

[Tumeg]

Wow...
I just asked her again, if I could come and pick up the remaining cash that she owes me, and she told me she left it at my door...
And well, there is nothing there! While we were talking about the money originally, she wanted my address cause she forgot it, so I texted it to her. So she can't really say she didn't know my address or she went to the wrong house, but now idk what to say to her!

I could say it isn't there, or I didn't get it, then she could just lie and say "well I left it there!" omg... I am pissed at her again, haha... So now, she basically robbed me of $60 worth of my time, along with all the stolen photos\copyright infringement...

[DocFrankenstein]

Wow...
I just asked her again, if I could come and pick up the remaining cash that she owes me, and she told me she left it at my door...
And well, there is nothing there! While we were talking about the money originally, she wanted my address cause she forgot it, so I texted it to her. So she can't really say she didn't know my address or she went to the wrong house, but now idk what to say to her!

I could say it isn't there, or I didn't get it, then she could just lie and say "well I left it there!" omg... I am pissed at her again, haha... So now, she basically robbed me of $60 worth of my time, along with all the stolen photos\copyright infringement...
I think she is doing everything to get sued

[Tumeg]

Here is the message I will be sending her, please crique it all you want!
I am not looking for it to be a proper\mature message, but if everyone thinks it should be, then it is up to you to make it that way! :D


***Updated Letter On The Second Post of the Next Page***

[bigjon0107]

Well, if you are just looking for a reaction, that will get one. I know you said you are not looking to be mature, but why stoop down to her level? You have to realize that by taking money YOU are now a professional by definition and should act as such...no matter your age. And they way you repeat the same thing over and over, it seems like you are just going to ruffle feathers that honestly dont need to be.

[Tumeg]

Well then, can you please re-write it to sound\be more professional?
I personally, am not positive yet on how to do so...
But I guess I can give it a whirl...

[Tumeg]

Here is a more mature\professional version, tell me what you think before I send it on it's way!




****REMOVED****

[Rachel B]

if you upload just becareful about model releases and such, if you were not a named photographer on her contract for the wedding you may come into problems there (possibly as I have no experience in this)
Oh and send it by email, but also send it via registered mail...just incase

[Tumeg]

if you upload just becareful about model releases and such, if you were not a named photographer on her contract for the wedding you may come into problems there (possibly as I have no experience in this)
Oh and send it by email, but also send it via registered mail...just incase

Last I checked, model releases are only required for commercial use of the photographs. But that is a good think to know: "If you were not a named photographer on her contract for the wedding you may come into problems there (possibly as I have no experience in this)"

[sevillafox]

Your letter to her still seems a bit like it was written by a snotty teenager....you might want to tone it down further. Professionals usually don't use the term "crazy" like you did.

[Tumeg]

Your letter to her still seems a bit like it was written by a snotty teenager....you might want to tone it down further. Professionals usually don't use the term "crazy" like you did.

Thanks for that.... but could you give me any suggestions as to what to change? That is mainly why I posted it :confused:

[DocFrankenstein]

Well then, can you please re-write it to sound\be more professional?
I personally, am not positive yet on how to do so...
But I guess I can give it a whirl...
Start with the goal?
What are you trying to do?

Don't explain too much, she doesn't care or think of you much.

Just tell her:
1) I don't want my images on your website
2) I want the rest of my money you owe me

[Tumeg]

I sent the message...
My only reply from her has been "Are you home for me to come by and drop something off?"

I am pretty scared by this, haha... I really don't want her coming by and then having her end up staying for a long time talking to me about this, but I also want w\e she is dropping off...
I am sorta embarrassed now (not sure why) and I think it will be weird to actually see her. I guess my only option is to tell her she can come by...

[Rachel B]

the interent gives you confidence because you cant see who your talking to.

let us know what she brings

[DocFrankenstein]

I sent the message...
My only reply from her has been "Are you home for me to come by and drop something off?"

I am pretty scared by this, haha... I really don't want her coming by and then having her end up staying for a long time talking to me about this, but I also want w\e she is dropping off...
I am sorta embarrassed now (not sure why) and I think it will be weird to actually see her. I guess my only option is to tell her she can come by...
Have your mom present. :D

[RandyMN]

I sent the message...
My only reply from her has been "Are you home for me to come by and drop something off?"

I am pretty scared by this, haha... I really don't want her coming by and then having her end up staying for a long time talking to me about this, but I also want w\e she is dropping off...
I am sorta embarrassed now (not sure why) and I think it will be weird to actually see her. I guess my only option is to tell her she can come by...

LOL, she's gonna drop off her pitbull to bite your ass for talking so mean to her...

[Tumeg]

I asked my mom, and she told me to tell her I'm not home... My mom wants my dad to be home when she comes by, lol...
So she is gonna come by next week. I just asked her what she wants to bring by, no answer yet.

I am starting to worry, hahaha.. Her ex husband was a cop, and they kept a gun in the car, so I am thinking he forgot to take it out when they got a divorce >.<

[Zansho]

No, you probably have her between a rock and a hard place. She knows she's been busted, this time, especially after she's done this to other people.

If I were her, I'd be trying to make nice with you. Alas, I'm not, and nor do I want to be, lol.

I hope you registered all the images with the US copyright offices. To be honest, your letter has a bit of a... how shall I say this? Vindictive tone, and doesn't sound very professional. It also seems that you keep repeating yourself over and over in that letter, just state your points, and move on. Paragraph A "I just found out, blah blah blah," Paragraph B, "As a result of me finding this out, please cease and desist from using my images..." Paragraph C, "If you don't cease and desist, I'm afraid I'll have no other alternative but to pursue legal options to prevent you from using my work to promote your business."

Keep it related to the matter at hand. She doesn't need to know what you're doing with the images (e.g. uploading it to your website - what you do with your images is your business).


Edit: Even IF her ex hubby is a cop, I doubt she's gonna plot your murder over a few measly images lol.

Also, keep it direct and simple. The more wordy it is, the more confusing it is for the other party, but make sure the receiving party understands there's no room for negotiation.

[tplyons]

How old is this photographer? She sounds like a pathetic little teenager with a bunch of good gear calling herself a pro.

That being said, it looks like you need to do some more reading on copyright law.

In the future, consider copying all your data to a computer, or another CF card before giving her the original, or better yet, copying it onto her CF card. Retain the original whenever possible.

Worst case scenario, consider it a $60 lesson in the business world. Last time I made a deal without a contract, I nearly got burned out of $700 until I got some people in the community backing me and urging him to come forward with the money. Walk away from the deal and use it as a learning experience.

Even if you get the money, cut your losses and walk away.

[OdiN1701]

Wow...I wouldn't have sent that letter. Could have been written much better.

[Burrelly]

Any chance you can post a link to her website or PM it. I am interested to see her photography.

[sigmonster]

Hi I am not a legal expert but as far as I know the photographer always retains copyright of images he/she has taken unless you sign them away in an official agreement.
In any case you should have received at least $ 135.00 it's difficult if she is a friend but sometimes friends are the worst at taking yo for a ride !
maybe she should no longer be your friend.

[basroil]

Wow...I wouldn't have sent that letter. Could have been written much better.

yes, i have to agree here. this type of letter should never be sent unless your employer is your older brother or sister. never state you'll quit in a grievances letter. drag it out as long as you can. the more the realize that you will not give up, the better position you are in.

as for sigmonster's comment, yes, that is so. you still own the rights to all those photos, and your "employer" owns the rights to none of them. a cease and desist letter would have been in order, as well as a police report on the lost photographs (you can prove they are yours because the images have the serial number and make of the camera, as well as the owner's name. if you had it on raw, there is no way to remove it without destroying the raw. if she destroyed the raw, then there can be civil a charges filed)

[Kadath]

Wow I can't say enough how much of a bad idea I think that letter was. You only get one shot at establishing your reputation in life and it's how you deal with the things that don't quite go right that people remember the most. Right now you are focusing on $60 which might be a lot in the short term but is noise in terms of your future career...

[amfoto1]

One last time...

Forget the $60 she supposedly left on your door step ("gee, it must have blown away"... "and the dog ate my homework"). You've wasted $6000 worth of your own and our time worrying about $60 when there are much, much bigger issues at stake.

You are way too dependent upon the Internet. You simply must learn to talk to people on the phone, face to face and deal with them in writing, not via email, texts, etc., when appropriate. Email and texts are fine for little details ("You home?") but not for important matters where you need to either size up people by their non-verbal communication or need to be damned certain the details of agreements are clearly stated in writing for everyone to see and sign. The lack of written agreement is what got you into this whole situation in the first place.

At this point in time, you probably should sit down with your dad (who I think you said is an attorney) to craft that "cease and desist" letter. Do not send it as an email. It must be sent as a registered, return receipt letter. Period.

That letter needs to be very succinct and professional, not threatening or whiney or anything else. It should simply demand she stop using/selling your images immediately and informs her that you still own the copyright and want to make clear that she does not have your permission to display or sell those images.

And, again, do not do anything - including sending the "cease and desist" letter until you have registered the copyright of your images and made screen shots as evidence that she is displaying your images and offering them for sale.

Here's another news flash... You have already quit working for her. So, there's no need to go into that. It's not much of a threat, anyway.

The other photographer who has offered to "hire" you has presented you with his terms. Are you just going to accept those as is and get screwed over again? In most negotiations you would counter with your terms, and then the two of you would go back and forth a little until you found common ground that gets you each as much of what you individually want and need as possible. Were it me, I'd offer limited usages of my images, retaining my copyright. I'd want to share in the profits of print sales, too, since that's where the real money is, not the hourly wage for snapping at the event.

Here's another thought.... I wonder if your "former employer" is following this thread closely? She has the same access to this public forum as any of us. Of course, the same is true of your "possible future employer(s)", and/or any attorneys who might eventually become involved in a copyright infringement case.

[Box Brownie]

Hi Brad

Alan is right in one respect you should consider keeping this matter off of this or any other blog/public forum because though it seems that you have 100% justification in all that you are trying to achieve some things can come back and bite you.

A thought for you about any/all business letters ~ the shorter they are the better and in the case of your situation in future consider that the letter should have three parts 1) what the current status is i.e. what is wrong and how you have been mistreated NB state this once and concisely, not repetitiously as per the draft you posted ~ granted you made your point but overly so. 2) the situation as you believe it to be (such as her ceasing & desisting usage of your copyrighted images) 3) the final outcome you wish to achieve recognition etc NB Not neccessarily the 'missing' $60

As for the upcoming meeting ~ were I in your shoes I think the person you need present bearing in mind you are under 16yrs apart from your father is an independant witness i.e. someone whose "witness" to the discussion is uninvolved like your doctor or the priest/vicar or a local company director not in any way associated with weddings/photgraphy or similar. You have no idea what she is going to bring tom the meeting and having a family member who would be deemed to be biased as witness to the discussion may not be enough should you have to escalate the legal process.

All the best and do update as needed once this is all sorted out to your agreed final satisfaction.

:)

[Stocky]

Since no one else has pointed out the fact that you are just as much to blame as the pro is, I will do it for you:
You verbally agreed to work at a wedding as a second shooter, agreed on the money, didn't do any research about the details, or ask for clarification on how the images would be used at the end.

Then after the fact you become what we lovingly call "a barracks lawyer" and start harassing the pro because she didn't do everything by the book.

I am all for protecting your rights, and in this case the law is on your side, but I think you are just as much at fault as the lady. You should probably count this as several thousand dollars of education that cost you a lousy $60, walk away, and never make the same mistake again.


That letter was also pretty rough. Next time I recommend having someone read over it with a level head before you rush to failure.

[MD Steelerfan]

I still want to see some images.

You should forget the $60.00 and move on. There is no way that amount of money is worth it. I recommend you find another photographer to work for and even if you get paid less you will at least feel like you make a difference and are appreciated. Also a good photographer would probably go through some of your pictures with you and show you what they think is wrong with them raqther than just telling you the were all blurry and lousy. It sounds to me like this woman is cheap and constantly looking to make a few extra bucks by bringing in cheap labor to help her then intentionally causing issues that will result in you not coming back. She probably feels threatened that new wedding photographers will be competing with her if you (and the other 2nds she has used) get enough experience to go out on your own.

Blow her off and let her know that you are going to spread the word to other young photographers about her poor business practices so no one else gets screwed by working for her. Walk away and find a nother phoptographer to work with and learn from.

[Bob D.]

"Generally, if she "hired" you, that is the case. It is a work for hire agreement."

For this to be true there would have to be something in writing, otherwise its the employers word against the photographer,and the ruling would go to the photog barring any written release of rights.

The hiring agreement would have to state you are working "for hire", otherwise you can not loose all your rights whether you are paid for your time or not.

You might enter into an agreement in the future that gives all rights to all images to her but lets you use some number (2,3 or more) of shots (the particular images to be mutually agreed to) in your portfolio. This 'contract' sould also spell out your compensation and should state when you are to be paid. On delivery of the product would be the norm I would think, just like any other contractor expects to be paid when their work is complete, unless other arrangements are made ahead of time.

[Tumeg]

Well... She did come over last night...
She explained everything, she explained why everything happened the way it happened and why everything took as long as it did. (I don't feel comfortable going into detail, it is very personal to her).
She ended up giving me $100 cash, right there... She told me she is currently saving to take me and her assistant (I am the 2nd shooter, and she also has an assistant for reflectors and what not) to a wedding seminar\workshop in San Fransisco (She said it would cost around $1.5k, not sure if that is per person or for all three of us to go). She also pointed out a few things to me, and made me feel very guilty.
She did understand why I was so angry, and why I sent that message. But she told me she was disappointed, and she never thought I would send a message like that to her.
After re-reading it, I do wish I would have edited it a bit more and made it not sound so mean\rude, but it's too late.
She did tell me that we could forget any of this happened and just go back to how things were.

Please don't flame me for my decision. If you heard\knew her situation you would understand my point of view. So now, I would just like this thread to die out... Haha,

[bigjon0107]

I would recommend to lock the thread. People are going to keep posting about the topic becaouse they do not read though it.

[DocFrankenstein]

Well... She did come over last night...
She explained everything, she explained why everything happened the way it happened and why everything took as long as it did. (I don't feel comfortable going into detail, it is very personal to her).
She ended up giving me $100 cash, right there... She told me she is currently saving to take me and her assistant (I am the 2nd shooter, and she also has an assistant for reflectors and what not) to a wedding seminar\workshop in San Fransisco (She said it would cost around $1.5k, not sure if that is per person or for all three of us to go). She also pointed out a few things to me, and made me feel very guilty.
Were your parents present when she talked to you?

[Tumeg]

Were your parents present when she talked to you?

My mom was, my dad was out at a meeting.

[amfoto1]

Flame on...

Un-fricking-believeable!

You mean to say you are actually going to work with her again after she ripped you off...

And "just go back to the way things were" sounds an awful lot like working without anything in writing, with her merrily ripping off your copyrights, etc., etc.

Precisely which part of "what she is doing is illegal, unethical and a disgrace to the wedding photography profession" did you not understand to the point that you are willing to work with her again, to be under her tutelage and to learn from her?

Thank you for not sharing one thing. I really don't care to hear about her personal problems. They have absolutely no bearing on business, which is what this is.

Best 'o' luck in your photography career. If this is how you learn from your mistakes, I'm predicting it may not be very long. But, I could be wrong.

Flame off.

[PhotosGuy]

And on that note, a good night to all. ;)