Should I Do this job or NO?

[divinemethod]

Hey guys,

I need advice... like all up and coming photographers, I was approached by a local wedding magazine to shoot for them. An 8 hour shoot with 8 models, and they will bring their own MUA, set design. So I am simply shooting and out for the night.

Now.. THEY would like full rights of my pictures, the only thing I was promised was:


My name on the magazine as the photographer, along with my website.
Final look and influence (decision over if I approve the edit to my standards) over the edited versions that will enter the magazine in print.Obviously I will get this in writing... but... If I don't provide full rights, they are not willing to negotiate and will find another photographer.

I am not getting paid for the shoot other than be able to use the material for my portfolio, and get free advertising on a 30,000+ circulation. I am not getting paid because this is a startup operation and he doesn't have all that much money...

The guy doesn't seem all that bad, and he seems to simply want to control the exposure of the pictures to the magazine and myself. I understand that... but I somehow feel shortchanged here...

Should I still go ahead and do this, for my publicity, or stand my ground and not do it as I will not have full rights for the pics?

Your two cents will add up!

[Skrim17]

A circulation of 30,000+ that is selling advertising space is making enough money to pay you for a cover. Is this standard for them? Do they get someone to shoot for free and give up rights for every issue?

[divinemethod]

Well... I couldnt tell you as this is a first attempt by him.. He is trying to make a name for himself in the wedding show industry and the magazine is a promo piece. I think he is putting in the money in to the magazine... and its free.

I just need more light into this situation from anyone who worked with these type of folk...

[P51Mstg]

You need to head to YOUTUBE and watch the "pay the author video" about a Science Fiction writer and him getting paid.

Bottom line, they have the money to pay to print the magazine, to pay staff members, they should have some to pay you. You will get plenty (more than you will ever need) photos for your portfolio over time, and I think that virtually NOBODY (other than photographers) ever remembers a CREDIT.

Think of it this way, 5 minutes after you read the evening newspaper, name 10 ads that were in there. Heck, see if you can name 5 ads. Now, tell me the name of one photo with a credit in there..........

Mark H

[Dorman]

No way would I take this job - the most important thing for a photographer to retain is the rights to their images, and that is the way a photog makes the real money - ask anyone that shoots commercially. Let's look at it this way - let's imagine you are doing photography for a living, no other day job, this is your business. I know you are up and coming today, however let's imagine you are making an income from this (FWIW I still retain a day job however a chunk of my income comes from photography). So say you are approached by someone and they say something like the following:

"Hi XXXXX, we are in need a photographer to shoot XXXXXX, there is no pay involved. In return for your services you will get FULL CREDIT on my website/magazine, AND you can add all of this work to your PORTFOLIO!"

Great - so you get exposure and you beef up your portfolio? Sounds great right? When was the last time you looked at a photo in a magazine, read the fine print for the photo credit, and actually checked out the photographers website? I'm willing to bet almost never. Let's look at the financials of the situation, you have costs associated with running a photo business that may/may not included the following:

Business costs:
Office costs
Office supplies
Phone line
Business cards
Advertising budget
Computers
Ink
Paper
Printing costs
Storage devices
Accounting services

Transportation costs:
Car
Oil
Gas
Tires
Wear and Tear

Camera Equipment:
Camera bodies
Lenses
Flashes
Lighting
Memory

Okay, so lets say you have a significant investment in your business - you still need to pay yourself a salary out of what you make from photography after taking all those costs into consideration to eat/sleep/live.

They are essentially offering you the opportunity to cost yourself a lot of money, go into the red and overall gain nothing for it. So you get the notion of exposure/advertising and you lose control over your work.

What does the other party get? They get a slew of images for no cost, which they own the full rights to and can use in any way they see fit. They can take your images and use them to turn as much profit as they want, for as long as they want, and you don't get a dime. They get the opportunity for a huge return on investment and you get your name in the magazine that nobody will probably notice. Doesn't sound like such a good idea does it?

So yes I've exaggerated the situation for dramatic effect, but what I'm telling you is that it's not a good deal - they get everything and you get nothing. Shooting it for free is one thing as long as you retain full right to your photos. Then you can license the ones they want to them for a fee while retaining future control. I recommend checking out John Harrington's book "Best Business Practices for Photographers".

[Sledhed]

If it was me? No pay, NO CLICK! Nobody cares about the credit line except you and your mama!

[madhatter04]

If it was me? No pay, NO CLICK! Nobody cares about the credit line except you and your mama!
I agree! I was asked to photograph 100 purses and bags for eBay. I would make absolutely nothing, but the potential client said she'd give me credit.... for photos of bags.... on eBay..... ummm...no.

[tim]

8 hours, a magazine cover, no payment, and the only benefit to you is portfolio shots? Tough choice. If you're new, sure, why not, but you should be paid for your time.

[Stickman]

THEY would like full rights of my pictures


Should I still go ahead and do this, for my publicity, or stand my ground and not do it as I will not have full rights for the pics?




You work means so little to them that they expect you to work for them for less than free. How much is your work worth to you?



How desperate are you to get work published? I don't ask that as an insult as there is always someone who is willing to do it because they think they can break in that way.

[primoz]

Maybe someone will disagree with me, but personally I consider something as "job" when I get paid for it. So in short... no don't do it. Magazines have money, and they certainly do have money for photographers too. Byline is definitely not something what will bring you much of possible work in future, since 99% of people don't even look for bylines. And that 1% of them who do, are basically photographers or someone interested in photography, but they probably won't be your clients or? ;)

[Zansho]

They have money to put this magazine in to circulation. They have money to pay you. I don't think this job is really worth it, despite the considerable "attention" the photos will get from your target audience.

To be frank, you're giving away the farm for absolutely nothing at all. I wouldn't do it.

[tcphoto1]

He wants to create a magazine that caters to the Wedding industry? He has sold ads? But like nearly every magazine it will need to be picture driven. He has no content and he wants you to provide it for free? Unless you want to build your book and the models are from a major Agency and an amazing MUA is provided, I would pass on it.

[Stocky]

Payments don't have to be cash. How much is a full page add in his magazine worth to you? How about a two page add? If the business has something to offer you then bartering might be better than a cash exchange for both of you.

I don't consider photo credit to be payment, but I am sure you can work something out.

[amfoto1]

The hardest part of any business is saying "No thank you".

On the face of it, this sounds like one case where that might be the best response, with very brief explanation.
If they like your work enough and need the content bad enough, they may change their tune. If not, you may not have lost anything of great value. I agree that a photo credit, even if it includes your URL, is insufficient compensation.

However...

If they were running a large ad for you in the magazine, that might be a worthwhile item to barter over. Personally, I'd want a series of ads, though, over multiple issues... Single shot ads usually don't generate as much response as a series will accumulatively. This is called a "trade-out", in the advertising industry, and isn't all that uncommon. Just get their ad rates and balance those against your rates, to come up with a fair trade.

Perhaps this is just the opening of negotiations. I'd ask more about why they want all rights... If it's exclusivity they are concerned about, you should be able to agree to something without giving up all your rights. Many photo buyers, especially newbies, just automatically start out asking for all rights, when they have no real idea what that means or what it might be expected to cost, or are just starting negotiations at one extreme, planning to negotiate back to the middle but happy as clams if the other party agrees to the extreme.

Be careful about who is paying for the models and any other location costs. Sounds like they are providing some things, but it isn't completely clear from what you wrote and you don't want a large surprise bill landing in your mail box afterward!

There are some wheeler dealers out there starting businesses all the time, and making everyone around them pay for the privilege of contributing to the effort.

On the other hand, there are also valid and well thought out start ups that simply have a tight budget and the owner/publisher might just be showing good business sense trying to control costs.

So, it could be the start of a beautiful, long term relationship. Or, it could be the beginning of a nightmare. I'd suggest a face to face meeting to discuss in more detail... and plenty of caution to watch out for your interests as carefully as he appears to be watching out for his.

[jpwone]

Tongue in cheek scenario.

Hi, I own a restaurant and I have seen some fries you cooked. Could you pop into the kitchen and cook some fries for me. I wont be able to pay you but I will make sure that I tell everyone that eats here that you cooked the fries. By the way could you supply your own potatoe peeler?

[taylorwilsdon]

Never work for free unless its someone who you would do something else free for (friends, family etc).

This is a business and it has business expenses. Photography is one of them. "Portfolio value" is no value at all. You can shoot all you want for your portfolio - they aren't doing you any favors.

[butcha27]

If you do accept this job and then keep accepting these sorts of jobs you will end up with lots of work and credits and not much money, the fact that they are unwilling to negotiate and use the threat of getting another photographer is fairly shallow. All they will end up with is someone who is unprofessional but cheap.

I had a similar situation with a newspaper I worked for who changed management, they tried to convince me to do more work for less pay, in fact almost nothing, I simply said I cannot continue to provise you with a professional if I am paid as a rank amateur, they added insult to injury by missing the point completely and sayin, well we can't explain our photographers situation to the readers (whatever that meant) Needless to say they had a new man out shooting sport with a point & shoot the next weekend!

My point is that if you are a professional or aspire to be professional and treated as such, do not accept anything less than something that resembles a professional payment or they will expect it all the time. I was impressed with the price breakdown idea earler in the thread, don't be scared to use that, let us know how you get on

[MikeMcL]

honestly, it seems like it would be a cool and fun assignment.

That said, never work for free for a person that is using you to make money. that just doesnt seem right.

If there was some contract for further paid work or a long term assignment to the mag, i might say to give him a break, but there is nothing.

if someone is unwilling to pay you, it is because they don't value your skill and time. This guy is trying to use you.

Go back to him with a counter offer that can be considered "cheap but fair" and test the waters. if he goes to another photog, consider it a good thing.

[a_kraker99]

If you dont want to do it for free send them my way.

A wedding magazine is not like any other magazines. Brides do look at the photos and who took them in those magazines. If you really think you need to get paid for it then say you will do it for $500 and then he will charge you $500 to put the images in the magazine. I think it would be a great opportunity for you. Go for it. I know I would.

[tedscastle]

Way too often, we only consider the money. How much fun would you have doing the job? Does eating depend on the money you make that day? Would it make you feel good to have your pictures in print? There is more to life than money.

I am also a musician and sometimes work for free, but only when I feel like. Who I play with and what I am playing mean more than the money, same with photography. Of course, I don't rely on either to eat.

[breadandbutter]

Does eating depend on the money you make that day?

Yes. ;)

[sfaust]

Why is it that this would be laughable in any other industry but art? The restaurant/fires example is a good one. But the list goes on!

Turn it around and look at it from the other side. Shooting that job is probably worth $1,000 minimum. So, assume you have that $1,000 in your pocket. Would you pay this guy $1,000 in order to have him put your name/credit in the magazine? If the answer is yes, go for it. But if you think that would be crazy and money unwisely spent, then just say no thanks.

The other point to consider is giving away your rights. That is a absolute stopping point in my book without ample compensation.

You could counter and say you'd do it for $x,xxx and he can have the rights, or for $xxx and you keep the rights. If he really wants the rights, you really need to be paid for your work IMO.

He is just looking for photographers to take advantage of. Don't be one of them. I bet once he gets the magazine off the ground, the trend in trying to get free images will continue. Why would he quit if it got them once, and now his magazine is more established, hence to him more value to the photographer in terms of exposure. These are the clients I run from because they will suck you dry, then leave you on the side of a desert road dehydrated and move on to another succulent victim.

[inthedeck]

I can't help beyond what the others have said. I will add to the stockpile of the coin bin, though.

There's basically two options. You take it, and get potentially hosed (flip side is, you take it, and the exposure is great, so you needn't worry about it). Second option, you don't take it, and aren't any worse off than you were at the beginning of the year (flipside, you don't take it, and the guy who filled your shoes is receiving the publicity, and getting paid from the bookings).

I guess this is why the camera industry is becoming so cut-throat, as far as making a living off of it. Labor for love, or money. That's your choice.

Good luck.

[Lunajen]

this reminds me of an ad on saw on Craig's List. Person wants a photographer to come out and shot some work for them in trade of free advertising. Then doesn't tell what kind of business or what kind of free advertising you'll get just, give me all the photos and I will probably give your name to a few people and maybe say you were good....

If he gets paid for his work, why shouldn't you?

[divinemethod]

Here is the update on my situation:

I DID THE WORK. I had fun doing it, there were 8 models, 3 make up artists, 2 hairstylists, all working for the exposure. I had more assistants and free food than I would get if I did TFP or something. I did the work for a full page ad on the 3rd page of the mag.

I kept the rights for the pictures. But did give him exlusive use until his magazine takes off and agreed not to post images anywhere until he gets his mag out in print by July 7th.

I THINK I gained something from this: One - I learned to say no, you cant have the full rights for the pictures. And I said no to working for free. I thought it would be nice to have my ad on 30K print copies.

Again, this forum has helped me make an informed decision some how.

Thanks guys!

[keegsmeister]

Congratulations. I hope the shoot went well. :)

[sfaust]

Excellent! A full page ad is a very reasonable compromise for this situation, costs him very little, but will help you more than a paycheck would at your stage.

And yes, saying no is the best way to putting food on the table and getting a fair price for your services. Thats a lesson most new photographers take far to long to learn, and many never do. Do a good analysis on your overhead, salary requirements, funds for growth, etc, set your prices accordingly, say no to any assignment that falls below those rates. Anything below that rate and you're loosing money, not making it.

I hope others read this, as you are a good example of the right way to do it, and shows that it really works!

BTW, I did a similar job about two months ago for a wedding gown catalog. Very similar parameters, 4 models, 3 assistants, 3 MUA/stylists, 9 gowns to shoot, 36 catalog shots, 9 creative shots, cover, etc. You can see the results of the days shoot on my blog here; http://stephenfaust.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/wedding-gown-catalog-shoot/

[letsmakeart]

"he doesn't have all that much money... "

Sounds like he can **** off then. He's paying for sets, models, and hes got himself access to what they are wearing, as well as a mag with a decent circulation that's selling advertising.

BULL**** he doesn't have money.

And good job with the ad negotiation, I've worked for ad space before if I've found it to be worthwhile.

[TeeJay]

Tongue in cheek scenario.

Hi, I own a restaurant and I have seen some fries you cooked. Could you pop into the kitchen and cook some fries for me. I wont be able to pay you but I will make sure that I tell everyone that eats here that you cooked the fries. By the way could you supply your own potatoe peeler?

That is very good.

The bottom line is (unfortunately) they WILL get someone to do it - for free, because, as a tog who tries to earn a living out of this game, there is always someone who will do it cheaper, assuming it's "cheap" that the client wants.

What does that say about how they look at you and your work. If they aren't willing to pay you anything, then thats the value they attribute to your ability as a photographer.

Having said all that, for someone who is just starting out, maybe as said above, bartering might be your best way forward. Don't just go for a tag line - believe me, no-one remembers them - and by the time they rememeber where they saw a particular photograph, the magazine will be long gone.

If you MUST do this without payment, and lets face it, for a new tog it's incredibly tempting - at least negotiate for something that you CAN put a price on i.e. a full page advert!

But, and it's a huge but, DO NOT give them ownership of your photo's. You can provide them with whatever "publishing rights" you like, but never hand over ownership.

Take care

TJ

[Dorman]

I'm glad to hear you got some advertising, but more importantly retained the rights to your work.

[bigbaby987]

If you don't have a good feeling about it......DON'T DO IT.

[sspellman]

Good! It seems like you made the most benefit of a unique situation,minimized what you had to give up without compensation, and proved that there is always room for negociation.

-Scott

[Road2Show]

I think you turned this into a very positive endeavor. You get the ad space, you get images from working with 8 models, MUA's etc without costs, you are credited for the images so when they look to see who made them look so beautiful, they see your name (reinforced with the full page ad they've already seen)

It also sounds as though all parties were happy. This can also lead to very profitable ventures in the future with the same publication and its advertisers.

Each and every situation must be carefully evaluated and acted upon. For those that instantly assume no $$ = no clicks. Well, good for you. Your business must be fully established with more work and income than you need. Well done. For the vast majority however, you must keep your business dynamic and seek out new ideas to provide maximum ROI.

Mike

[bigbaby987]

I posted my earlier post after finally reading the whole thread. Good for you!!! Congratulations on a job well done.

[DocFrankenstein]

because this is a startup operation and he doesn't have all that much money...
Credit publicity is worth nothing.

If he's a bridal mag, tell him you want a full page ad somewhere in it... preferably color.

When he refuses, tell him you're a startup operation and you don't have all the much money, so quid pro quo, Clarice.

EDIT: Oh, you did just that. Nice.

[ThomGascoigne]

Absolutely not! No pay is one thing, but handing over copyright oh hell no!

[J.Napier]

"Holy thread reserection Batman". This post is almost 1.5 years old.

[ThomGascoigne]

Whoops! my bad

[noxcuses1]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this but is the MUA, models, and set designer getting paid???

If so, then why shouldn't you???

[e02937]

lol

[kenwood33]

so its over a year now, can we see the pictures please? :)

[AlexMoPhotography]

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=781487