20D/420EX must be in M mode for parties?

[wibbly]

I wanted to take some point and shoot photos indoors on Christmas day...

- I wanted to use flash
- I wanted to force ~F8 for lage DOF
- I wanted to force ~1/60 sec for handheld shots

As the 20D wants to make flash 'fill-in' automatically in most modes, and even in 'green square mode' it opens up the aperture in low light with the flash attached, I wound up setting F8 and 1/60 in M mode and allowing the fash metering to get the exposure right. Seems to have worked (with some under exposure), but also doesn't "feel right" to get a simple point and shoot mode in these cirusmstances.

Any better way?

John

[tim]

I always use manual mode when I use a flash at night, auto modes want to leave ths shutter open longer than I want. I think just keep doing what you're doing :)

[snibbetsj]

wibbly, there's just not any better way to do it. However, the ETTL-II works great in this mode as long as your subjects aren't too far away. Doing what you're trying to do is not a simple point-and-shoot type situation, that why we have this cool equipment. :)


Jeff

[wibbly]

The under exposure is a bit of a dissapointment. The the green light on the flash when it goes off suggests the flash can cope. I know there flash comp. I can use.... just a question of why I need to all the time.

Oh well

John

[scottbergerphoto]

Your observation about using Manual Mode on the camera when the flash is in ETTL/II is correct. All camera modes except the Manual Mode use Automatic Reduction of Fill Flash resulting often in about 1/2 to 1 stop underexposure of the flash. You will get more consistently accurate flash exposures using M on the Camera with the flash in ETTL/II. You can also increase the consistency of interior flash shots by using Cfn. 14-1(averageing)

Here is a set of pictures taken with a 550EX in ETTLII, hotshoe mounted, head tilted at 60 degrees, and a 1D Mark II in M at 1/60, f/8, CFn. 14-1.
http://www.pbase.com/scottbergerphoto/christmas_2004
Regards,
Scott

[Hellashot]

Well with a 20D and a 420EX, your flashes are going to "fall" short of the effective coverage area of the lens because of the 1.6x factor. You really need to manually enter the effective focal length of the lens into the flash, if you can - you can on my 550EX, for proper coverage. Otherwise you probably need to use flash compensation on every shot.

[alan sh]

What I do (I have the 20D and a 430EX) is put the camera into Av mode, put the setting that says "force 1/250th on" to ON, turn the FEC up about 1 1/3, put it into 400ISO and start shooting.

It seems to produce good pictures for me.

Alan

[scottbergerphoto]

Well with a 20D and a 420EX, your flashes are going to "fall" short of the effective coverage area of the lens because of the 1.6x factor. You really need to manually enter the effective focal length of the lens into the flash, if you can - you can on my 550EX, for proper coverage. Otherwise you probably need to use flash compensation on every shot.The failure of the flash head to zoom to the exact lens zoom does not account fot the underexposure in the far majority of cases, because ETTL/II will kick out enough light based on the pre flash. The only time that that zoom may be a factor is when you reach the physical limit of the flash as defined by the Guide Number. The 420EX at ISO 100 at f/8 can cover 42M/8=5 Meters( Distance =Guide Number / f stop at ISO 100). At ISO 400, it goes to 10 Meters. As long as you stay within the limits, the zoom factor is not going to give you an underexposure problem.
Scott

[scottbergerphoto]

What I do (I have the 20D and a 430EX) is put the camera into Av mode, put the setting that says "force 1/250th on" to ON, turn the FEC up about 1 1/3, put it into 400ISO and start shooting.

It seems to produce good pictures for me.

Alan1. 430EX? I suspect you meant 420EX?
2. You can lock the shutter speed at 1/250 to prevent a too low shutter speed that might lead to camera shake. My problems with this stategy is that you lose any ambient light in the picture and you still have to deal with the Auto Reduction of Fill Flash. Backgrounds go black on interior shots. I think a better strategy is to use Manual and set the shutter speed to 1/60. That allows you to capture some ambient light and it is fast enough to avoid camera shake. You also avoid the Automatic Reduction of Fill Flash in Manual Mode. There is nothing wrong with your method, it just limits your choices.
3. FEC of +1 1/3 on a consistent basis seems a little high.
4. I agree with using ISO 400. It gives you low noise and good flash coverage.
Regards,
Scott

[Reminisce]

Hey Scott, can you give me a breif explanation of what Fill Flash is exactly? My Sigma manual for my 500 DG Super is so vague that I dont know exactly how it works. I've read most of the FAQs on the forum but still cant figure out when the flash is doing Fill and working in regular mode by looking at a picture. Thanks in advance

[scottbergerphoto]

Hey Scott, can you give me a breif explanation of what Fill Flash is exactly? My Sigma manual for my 500 DG Super is so vague that I dont know exactly how it works. I've read most of the FAQs on the forum but still cant figure out when the flash is doing Fill and working in regular mode by looking at a picture. Thanks in advanceIn "fill flash", ambient light is your primary light source and the flash is used to just fill in the shadows. Usually if you are doing fill flash intentionally, you would use the camera in Manual, flash in ETTL/II and dial down the flash by 1-1 2/3 stops (-)FEC. If the camera is in any other mode, you are adding FEC to an unknown quantity of fill reduction added by the camera.
Canon EOS cameras automatically go into fill flash mode when ambient light levels reach a certain level and will lower flash output by as much as 2 stops. Canon has not divulged the ETTL auto reduction of fill flash algorithm.
The way to avoid this reduction of flash is to put the camera in Manual Mode and the Flash in ETTL/II. You could also use Manual Flash.
There is more on this at:
www.photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html (http://www.photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html)
(The PhotoNotes web site is acting up today)
Regards,
Scott

[mr.photoguy]

Soo if you didn't use FEC +1 , because you totally forgot to, should you bump up the exposure on the raw file or leave it as is.
example.
http://upload.pbase.com/brucescott/image/37892535/.jpg

ok edited the RAW file to 1 extra stop, and I see the difference.
http://www.pbase.com/brucescott/image/37893362

[scottbergerphoto]

Soo if you didn't use FEC +1 , because you totally forgot to, should you bump up the exposure on the raw file or leave it as is.
example.
http://upload.pbase.com/brucescott/image/37892535/.jpg

ok edited the RAW file to 1 extra stop, and I see the difference.
http://www.pbase.com/brucescott/image/37893362Absolutely! Shoot Raw and if you need to, increase the exposure in the Raw Converter (DPP, EVU, etc.). Just remember that the increase in exposure will affect the whole picture, not just the area lit by the flash, which in some circumstances might be undesireable.
Regards,
Scott

[mr.photoguy]

Absolutely! Shoot Raw and if you need to, increase the exposure in the Raw Converter (DPP, EVU, etc.). Just remember that the increase in exposure will affect the whole picture, not just the area lit by the flash, which in some circumstances might be undesireable.
Regards,
Scott
thank you Scott.

I try to shoot raw all the time, aside from around the house fooling around. I need to get my hands on a 550ex as a friend wants me to do some photo's at his night club party that he is throwing.
Would you have any tips for that type of set up. I am thinking I will have to use my wide angle most of the time as I will be doing mostly selective portraits.
my choices are 50mm 1.8 , 18-55, or 70-200 f4l

[tim]

Well with a 20D and a 420EX, your flashes are going to "fall" short of the effective coverage area of the lens because of the 1.6x factor. You really need to manually enter the effective focal length of the lens into the flash, if you can - you can on my 550EX, for proper coverage. Otherwise you probably need to use flash compensation on every shot.

Remember that's a 1.6 crop factor, not a magnification factor. The only thing that will happen, in theory, is that the flash lights up a slightly larger area than it really needs to. In practice though, i'm not sure what will happen, flash photography's hard.

[mr.photoguy]

Remember that's a 1.6 crop factor, not a magnification factor. The only thing that will happen, in theory, is that the flash lights up a slightly larger area than it really needs to. In practice though, i'm not sure what will happen, flash photography's hard.
Your not lying there. Flash photography is not easy. Makes me realize why people tend to love ambient light + a little reflector manipulation.

[Toogy]

I used M mode exclusively over the last few days, pretty much had it locked on 1/80th and F5.6 with the 420EX, didn't have to mess with FEC and I'd say 90% of my pictures were exposed correctly.

[scottbergerphoto]

I used M mode exclusively over the last few days, pretty much had it locked on 1/80th and F5.6 with the 420EX, didn't have to mess with FEC and I'd say 90% of my pictures were exposed correctly.Exactly! Putting the camera in Manual Mode gives much more reliable ETTL/II flash exposure.
Scott