Got an interesting email reply

[Borbor]

I asked for a media pass for a motorsports event, and here's the reply I received verbatim:

"This being said, as you are not directly linked to any type of
publication we would like to ask in return that you supply us with the
pictures you have taken and allow us the rights to use them."

My question is, what do I tell them? :confused: I mean, sure I'd LIKE to shoot, but I guess the question I need to answer for myself is do I want to shoot for free for these guys :rolleyes:

[gjl711]

Might want to ask if "allow the rights to use" includes appropriate compensation as well.

[tim]

Are you trying to make money off them? Or just doing it for fun? If you're just doing it for fun you lose nothing by giving them the images. You could reply "what are your standard payment terms" or something like that if you wanted to, but they might not give you a pass if you do that.

[Borbor]

I might be doing it for fun, but I certainly am not doing it for free.

It's like what I said to another acquaintance of mine: The only person who gets my stuff for free is me :) I lose out by giving them images because now they'd EXPECT me to give it out everytime from this point forward.

Going to sit on this a few days before I fire them a reply. I don't want to do it for free, and as long as they're reasonable about it, I'll probably shoot anyway. If they ARE going to press for free, well then it'll obviously not be full size high res.

[Steve Wintrow]

what needs to be clarified is wether they want exclusive rights to the photos. they do ask for the pictures and the right to use them, but do not ask for exclusive rights.... might not be a bad idea to get started. you might ask them for a token payment of $10 for the pictures so you did not do this for free and they can see you are serious about your work.

[Bob D.]

You could counter with One Time Rights in only certain mediums such as print or TV or ads or with limited markets like USA only (where you retain ALL rights elsewhere), or do a limited by time where they have the option to use for up to x number of months or one year after which ALL rights revert to you automatically.

There are many ways to configure this. And all of the above would be at some rate agreed to in advance by both parties. This may be reduced from what you would want from others but still something that goes toward covering your time and investment and maintenance of equipment.

[tim]

I wouldn't bother with a token payment, no point. I also don't see how it helps them to have you there, offering to sell them images, when the press will be there already - unless they want more photos that is.

[photoguy6405]

If you were with a publication, they'd at least be getting publicity. Ask yourself... What's in it for them?

[PhotosGuy]

do I want to shoot for free for these guys You aren't shooting for free. You're trading images for creds & the access to shoot the images in the first place. Which is why they said, "we would like to ask in return that you supply us with the
pictures you have taken and allow us the rights to use them." ;)

[Chris71]

I have to agree with PhotosGuy. If I were to go to the local dragstrip (not saying you are going to the dragstrip) and ask for a pass, just so I could get some close up shots for myself, I would expect not to get one since I have no association with the press. If they did tell me they would give me one, if I gave them rights to my images, I would take them up on it.

You have to ask yourself, why do I want this pass.
Are you just wanting shots for your portfolio? If so, then why not let them use the images.

[photoguy6405]

I wouldn't give up ownership, but I see nothing wrong with letting it be a win-win situation and letting them have rights to their use.

[Ralph Merlino]

You are not shooting for free, they are giving you a pass.
Passes are not easy to come buy. Usually you have to be
with the media to get a pass. I can remember many years
ago If you wanted a pass to shoot the Long Beach Grand Prix
and were not working for the media you would have to pay
$150.00 for one.

[Shutterbug Doug]

You aren't shooting for free. You're trading images for creds & the access to shoot the images in the first place. Which is why they said, "we would like to ask in return that you supply us with the
pictures you have taken and allow us the rights to use them." ;)
I agree with this but I'd also ask for a by line in any photos they used and you to retain full ownership of the photos. Win-win all around. They can use them and you can still market them to the drivers/teams for sale.
Hmm, I may try and use this as a bargaining chip next time I request access to my local track and get shot down.
Good luck in your decision!

[S.Horton]

Take two CF cards with you...............

[cory1848]

I did this exact thing with a motorcycle stunt competition. They asked for copies...they didnt specify what size copies so they got web ready images... It was worth it, I love motorcycling anyways and it got me into the event and behind the scenes for free where I wouldnt normally get to go.

Just have to keep in mind, that most likely this is a closed event and any photos taken inside their "lines" they have rights to anyways....just like NFL football or any other professional sports...you cant profit off them...

[PhotosGuy]

..you cant profit off them... Negotiate.

[Village_Idiot]

Take two CF cards with you...............

I usually take like 4 or 5...what's this have to do with anything?

Tell them that it's one year, non exclusive and you retain the copyright.

[basroil]

Unless I would be able to make money off of this elsewhere, I'd just go as a spectator and enjoy the event (if they allow cameras in, no loss other than the angle and distance). No sense in giving away photos unless you get something equally valuable in return.

[TeeJay]

....No sense in giving away photos unless you get something equally valuable in return.

You are - media access and the chance to get up close and personal at track-side. Surely that has its own inherant "price" built in.

In these circumstances I don't see anything wrong with maybe allowing them to use the photo's for their "own use" - i.e. web site and/or advertising, although I would expressly prohibit them from "selling them on" (or even giving them away) to any third party.

TJ

[jonnythan]

I usually take like 4 or 5...what's this have to do with anything?

Tell them that it's one year, non exclusive and you retain the copyright.

He was suggesting to use one to take pictures, then swap in the other and snap a few to give to the event coordinators.

In other words, dupe them by giving them phony shots and keeping your real shots.

[S.Horton]

I usually take like 4 or 5...what's this have to do with anything?

Tell them that it's one year, non exclusive and you retain the copyright.

Which photos you surrender is up to you. If you think you don't want to provide all of them, don't.

So, you control how much 'value' you're giving up at the end of the day.

[Borbor]

He was suggesting to use one to take pictures, then swap in the other and snap a few to give to the event coordinators.

In other words, dupe them by giving them phony shots and keeping your real shots.

No way am I going to do that. I have no issues with giving them web sized photos, and to be honest I'd much rather do THAT than dupe people.

[Village_Idiot]

He was suggesting to use one to take pictures, then swap in the other and snap a few to give to the event coordinators.

In other words, dupe them by giving them phony shots and keeping your real shots.

How many event coordinators have a guy with a laptop and cf card reader following you around? Most I know will wait until you have the finished product and if you're shooting something like this, they're not going to be worried about what your pictures look like during the event because they're going to be busy taking care of everything else.

[jonnythan]

I think the post was, more or less, in jest. And I'm glad to hear that Borbor wouldn't do it anyway.

[ChrisRabior]

Negotiate.

I'll second that.

You want to shoot. They're going to let you but they want something to show for it. It's time to call them back and figure out exactly what type of rights they want. Full rights to all photos may cut you out of future profit, if that's what you're looking for. Barely any rights at all, they might withdraw their offer. Get on the phone, and talk it out.

Figure out what's acceptable. For all you know, they may only be interested in the top 5 or 10 images you capture, and they may only want them for a year or two for their own file photos. Certainly no need for compensation there. On the other hand, if they expect full rights for an unlimited amount of time for all the pictures, and plan to use them for anything that's going to generate revenue (T-shirts, mugs, products, etc), then I'd probably have a complaint about doing it (for the reasons you said.. don't want to identify yourself as a free source of images).

So get on the phone, find out what exactly they want, and then NEGOTIATE. I'm sure you'll come to an arrangement that's acceptable to the both of you.

[cory1848]

I'll second that.

You want to shoot. They're going to let you but they want something to show for it. It's time to call them back and figure out exactly what type of rights they want. Full rights to all photos may cut you out of future profit, if that's what you're looking for. Barely any rights at all, they might withdraw their offer. Get on the phone, and talk it out.

Figure out what's acceptable. For all you know, they may only be interested in the top 5 or 10 images you capture, and they may only want them for a year or two for their own file photos. Certainly no need for compensation there. On the other hand, if they expect full rights for an unlimited amount of time for all the pictures, and plan to use them for anything that's going to generate revenue (T-shirts, mugs, products, etc), then I'd probably have a complaint about doing it (for the reasons you said.. don't want to identify yourself as a free source of images).

So get on the phone, find out what exactly they want, and then NEGOTIATE. I'm sure you'll come to an arrangement that's acceptable to the both of you.

In my case there was no negotiation. It was their terms and I had to agree to them in order to gain media access. In fact, it wasnt even the media access that they cared about, it was coverage. They were going around to every person with anything more than a P&S and making them sign forms for exclusivity.

[photoguy6405]

In my case there was no negotiation. It was their terms and I had to agree to them in order to gain media access. In fact, it wasnt even the media access that they cared about, it was coverage. They were going around to every person with anything more than a P&S and making them sign forms for exclusivity.

Unless it's posted out front or printed on the ticket, can they enforce that?

[TeeJay]

Unless it's posted out front or printed on the ticket, can they enforce that?

Not after they've allowed you access, surely?

TJ

[Marnault]

Not after they've allowed you access, surely?

TJ

If its on private property, they can ask you to stop at anytime they want, if you don't comply they can force you to leave, being that its their property.

[bigbaby987]

I agree with photoguy here.. They are not asking for you to give up your rights for the photos or are they asking to keep your photos for themselves. However, it's a barter system. They give you access, something you didn't have in the first place for the "use" of photos". As long as they don't sell them and they give you credit, you don't have anything to argue about in my opinion. If you want a job, then ask them if they want or need someone to shoot their events for them. Simple.

[basroil]

You are - media access and the chance to get up close and personal at track-side. Surely that has its own inherant "price" built in.

In these circumstances I don't see anything wrong with maybe allowing them to use the photo's for their "own use" - i.e. web site and/or advertising, although I would expressly prohibit them from "selling them on" (or even giving them away) to any third party.

TJ

I personally wouldn't say that press access is equally "priced" as my work. I spend time, equipment, and in many cases transportation and food. They spend space, and that is only if you enter at someone else's expense. For me that does not constitute equal value. The OP can for his own judgment on the matter, is getting in as press really worth the lost revenue?

[Borbor]

Matter has been sorted. We've came to an agreement. They can use the photos for their use only, I retain the rights and they can't sell or give the photos to a 3rd party without my consent.

Thanks guys :)

[Tigershark]

sounds like a good compromise

[ChrisRabior]

Good to hear you got everything sorted out.

[DocFrankenstein]

Might want to ask if "allow the rights to use" includes appropriate compensation as well.
If you have to ask, you know the answer ahead of time. ;)

[TeeJay]

Matter has been sorted. We've came to an agreement. They can use the photos for their use only, I retain the rights and they can't sell or give the photos to a 3rd party without my consent.

Thanks guys :)

At this point in time that sounds like a fair deal.

TJ

[photoguy6405]

Yep, sounds like a fair compromise to me.