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View Full Version : Hunting with hounds - Response


chris.bailey
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 09:02
The photos posted by neil_r in the people photo sharing forum sparked quite an anti-hunting response; the tone of which I felt suggested a degree of ill-information. Terms such as ‘bloodthirsty’ and ‘hooligan’ are purely emotive and have been used far too often in the long debate on hunting with hounds in the UK. As for ‘cruelty for pleasure’, I’m afraid that most of the meat we eat involves a degree of cruelty to animals but as this is out-of-sight and in the interests of our eating pleasure, somehow we see that as justified. Personally I see little difference.

For those who have challenged me to provide an informed response I will offer the following chain of logic. I can well believe that others will do the same and reach other conclusions and I can appreciate their view. Such things are rarely clear cut and like most of life, involve a degree of compromise. I have, however, as a ‘townie’ living in the country, tried to take a balanced and informed view in reaching my own conclusions. I am not strongly pro or anti hunting though my own research has tended to sway me from the anti towards the pro.

To me the whole question of hunting with hounds needs to be considered in the wider context of animal husbandry, farming methods and quality of product. The hunting with hounds debate has isolated one element of this without fully considering others. Most evidence supporting hunting with hounds in such a wider context has been overshadowed by the emotive terms used by the anti-hunt lobby. This is a shame as it has led to a political decision that does not necessarily have scientific backing.

Anyway, my logic is as follows.

1) Do I want to eat meat? I have tried vegetarianism and decided it is not for me. I fully accept others views on this fundamental question but having decided I am a meat eater led me to consider my responsibilities as a carnivore.

2) Am I happy to eat meat and poultry produced by modern farming methods of mass production, additives etc? No I am not. Though most of us live with the picture postcard view of the farmyard, this is very far from the truth. Poultry production in particular is both intensive, un-natural and cruel in the extreme. Battery chickens are pumped full of antibiotics, without which they would not survive the disease that permeates such methods. Slaughter houses involve long distance transport of animals and then long delays before slaughter, both involve high degrees of stress and anxiety with some animals dying in transportation. I could go on but hopefully have made the point.

3) Is there an alternative? Yes. There are a growing number of animal friendly farms where chickens are reared in the open and cattle are slaughtered in small numbers locally. I know of one farmer who takes his own animal to slaughter and feeds them Mars bars to calm them. A strong bond exists between them and he feels responibility for the welfare of his animals right up to the point of slaughter. That is the kind of meat I would like to eat, and now do.

4) Am I prepared to pay the extra cost for animal friendly meat. Yes. The quality is immensely better with lower artificial additives. It does mean that I now import bacon from Northern Ireland (the only nitrite free bacon in the UK at present) and I need to buy meat in bulk as the cattle are slaughtered to order. As a family we now eat a little less meat but what we do eat tastes better. Overall there is little cost difference.

5) What are the other implications of animal friendly meat production? This is where it ties back into hunting with hounds. All farming is about maintaining a balance between the interests of the farmer his animals and wildlife. A compromise between a number of conflicting ideals, none of which can exist in isolation. Mass production in sheds effectively keeps ‘pests’ out. Rearing sheep and poultry out of doors in a more natural way shifts the balance. Foxes are a major threat to open bred poultry and lambs and need to be controlled. Foxes have few natural predators. Strangely their major predator in less rural areas is the motor car which keeps their numbers in check, in more rural areas this is not the case. A single fox can kill up to 100 chickens in one visit, very little of which is taken as food.

6) Having come to the view that foxes do need to be controlled, what is the best method of doing so? Having seen wild animals and domestic cats caught in traps and snares I am against such methods which are indiscriminate and often involve a long and painful ending. Poisoning is both illegal and very indiscriminate; barn owls in particular have declined both as a result of loss of habitat (that organic methods recreate) and use of farmyard poisons. That leaves shooting or hunting. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons suggest that hunting is the most humane

http://www.huntfacts.com/veterinary_opinion_on_hunting_.htm

gives what limited evidence there is. It would have been nice for there to have been more time for them to collect more. The cynic in me suggests that the politicians may not have liked the results.

7) Accepting that fox number control is needed and that hunting with hounds is the most humane way of doing so, to me the right answer was to licence hunts to ensure that it was carried out in the interests of fox number control and that pack hounds were properly cared for. An outright ban will lead to illegal hunting together with an increase in the use of poisons and snares.

So that is my ‘informed’ view. Not emotive but hopefully logical. All I would ask is that next time you sit down to eat a chicken, a lamb chop or a beef stew, give some though to how it was produced and what else it contains.

Jonny
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 09:22
Oh dear Chris,

It seems such a shame that you have taken such time and effort to type up such a large amount of rubbish. I really didn't want to to use that word as i didn't want to offend you personally but i don't know what else to say.

I think the meat eating world are fully aware of what goes on in most modern countries to produce their food but it has nothing to do with Fox Hunting and to try and directly link the two is foolish. To continue hunting with hounds will not free the hens and allow them to roam free.

As for ‘cruelty for pleasure’, I’m afraid that most of the meat we eat involves a degree of cruelty to animals but as this is out-of-sight and in the interests of our eating pleasure, somehow we see that as justified. Personally I see little difference.

We eat meat to survive...it is FOOD. Do hunters take the fox home for tea? If that was their only source of food then i would have no problem.

Chris, your post is too long for me to respond to all the indivdual points and to be honest i see no point due to its irrelevence.
What it comes down to is that hunters do take part for their pleasure and not to free the countryside of vermin..to deny that is futile.

It is death for pleasure that people object to.

RichardtheSane
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 10:18
That leaves shooting or hunting. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons suggest that hunting is the most humane

Chris, coming from a rural background I completely agree with you that the fox population does need a degree of control, but very careful control.

Where the foxes are detremental to chicken farms they actually have a positive effect on the productivity of arable farmland. On arable farms the biggest destroyer of crops are rabbits, and in nature the biggest destroyers of rabbits are foxes.

So simply hunting all the foxes down is not a viable solution.

But while the RCVS suggest that hunting foxes with dogs is the most humane option, it is only the most humane option for the fox. A typical pack of hounds can be anywhere from 25-100 dogs, and these dogs are only useful for hunting in the first 4-6 years of their lives, so what happens to them after that? They dissapear. Now using animals like that to me seems very inhumane.

Unfortunatly in the short term a ban on hunting will make that problem worse not better, as there will suddenly be a surplus of about 20,000 foxhounds in the UK so the hounds really can't win.

But the ban will go ahead because public opinion is in favour of it. The countryside alliance saw to that in their various demonstrations that have taken place in London.

neil_r
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 10:39
As I posted the original pictures I feel I should join in the debate. I deliberately remained totally neutral in the “Share Picture” forum as that was the right thing to do and I wanted the pictures to speak for themselves in what ever way people chose to interpret them.


I have lived on both sides of the Town & Country debate. I was born in a city; I chose to live in the country and took a degree in agriculture. I have worked on sheep and cattle farms prior to realising that I was never going to earn my fortune on the land and began chasing the filthy lucre.


I think that all who know agree that foxes damage farmers livelihoods. In the week before Christmas my brother in law, a free range chicken farmer, lost 8 birds to a fox (3 on one day and 5 the next) There is no doubt that it was a fox as the birds were not eaten, they had simply had their heads chewed off.


I don’t know if any of you have read the book “I bought a mountain” by Thomas Fairbank. It tells the story of how the author bought a sheep farm in the North Wales mountains some years before the second world war, without having any previous experience in sheep farming. He marries a local girl and together they succeed in bringing the farm to prosperity. What the book does not tell you is that Thomas buggered off and left his wife to run the place and I stood with her in a field one morning in the 1980s and looked at the bodies of 20 new lambs that had been killed the night before by a fox (again they had nor been eaten just the trademark decapitation)


Foxes are predators and they kill things, farmers need to make a living so they protect their livestock from foxes.


I have shot foxes, I derive no particular pleasure from it nor do I feel any great remorse.


What I think really annoys and inflames people is the thought that a bunch of hooray henrys derive their pleasure from seeing a fox destroyed by the hounds. Some may, but in my experience the people who hunt are not particularly wealthy, they do enjoy the excitement of riding to hounds, testing their horsemanship whilst competing with and enjoying the company of their friends, this is exciting. The death at the end of a successful hunt is rarely witnessed by the majority of riders and to be honest is rarely thought about by them either.


I doubt if anyone has read this far, but one of the things that has really amazed me about the current furore, is that the debate on hunting with hounds has taken more parliamentary time than our participation in the war with Iraq.


Having just re-read the above I apologise for the ramblings of a mad man.



N

(Edited once for some unbelievable spelling mistakes)

Scottes
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 12:18
I doubt if anyone has read this far, but one of the things that has really amazed me about the current furore, is that the debate on hunting with hounds has taken more parliamentary time than our participation in the war with Iraq.

That is truly sad.


On a slightly different note.... Has anyone here ever heard of how the UK almost lost it's entire Osprey population? Or how the US almost lost all of it's Bald Eagle population? The plight of the fox is tiny in comparison to either event.

Ballen Photo
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 13:02
I doubt if anyone has read this far, Neil,
You might be surprised at who will hang in here to hear both sides of this debate. (Myself, for one)
Having been raised on a farm/ranch in my youth, then living in the big city for most of my life, I've had the rare experience of actually seeing BOTH sides of the story.
IMHO, The folks that have only ever seen the postcard version of a farm or ranch, and are appalled by hunting for food, would be seriously handicapped in the struggle for survival if civilization as we know it were to collapse. Do they really think that meat comes from MacDonalds, or the supermarket?
I'll back out of this now, as I certainly dont want to become embroiled in a heated debate of this sort. After all, everyone has their own views on this, and far be it from me to try and change them.:cool:
-Bruce

iwatkins
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 15:14
I'm a simple country type and have been for most of my life (a few years here and there in the cities). :)

There are two camps to this debate, the pro-hunters and the anti-hunters. There isn't much of a middle ground and I doubt there ever will be. Therefore, I'm simply not going to try and convince the anti-hunters because they have their opinions and I respect them for that.

I'll put it on record that I'm pro-hunt, although I do not take part nor attend hunts usually. I have been called upon occasionally for the humane dispatch of foxes from hunts but that is more usually done by a member of the hunt these days.

The fact is that foxes will continue to be destroyed in the countryside to protect livestock. I have shot foxes for many years and I am on call with many local farms to do just that.

However, with the total ban on hunting with hounds, we will see more and more different methods being used to control foxes, all of which are inhumane to the fox.

Ever since to dawn of time, the farmer has had a shotgun and used it against foxes regardless of load and range. Quite a lot of the time, the fox will be wounded and will escape to die slowly. We will see a return to more of this once those farms that didn't control foxes, because the hunt would do that, have to control them themselves.

Worse than that we will see a return of poisons and traps/snares. None of which can be classed as humane and also risk the other local wildlife.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm bothering to post this as someone will come and say what I've said is "rubbish". This is what is missing in this debate, reasoned discussions and respect for other peoples opinions.

Ian

JAZZ D.P.G.
29th of December 2004 (Wed), 15:37
What is in question here? The fox or the hunt?

I've watched some of the coverage of the debates over the hunt, and the plight of the fox was only part of the issue.

The act of the hunt itself appeared to be more of the issue. Trespass, damage and noise.

Locally, the hunt groups use gov't and allowed private land for a hunt using a spore bag with fox urine to create the track. Hunters and dogs still get the workout and the "trophy" without the kill. The advantage is the controlled nature of the trail. Still get the jumps and twists and turns of a regular hunt, with the aide of a good trail layer.

Animal and pest control can be accomplished in other ways, some humane and some not, this is the choice available.


By the way, I'm pro hunting and anti gun control.

chris.bailey
30th of December 2004 (Thu), 01:35
I will try to treat your response in a more even handed way than you treated mine.


I think the meat eating world are fully aware of what goes on in most modern countries to produce their food but it has nothing to do with Fox Hunting and to try and directly link the two is foolish. To continue hunting with hounds will not free the hens and allow them to roam free.

Are they? I somehow think not. Many experts are now looking at hunting with hounds as part of the wider issue of rural land management and considering the negative impacts of its ban. A farmer neigbour of mine has already set additional traps and snares.


We eat meat to survive...it is FOOD. Do hunters take the fox home for tea? If that was their only source of food then i would have no problem.

There are plenty of vegetarians who pay testament to the fact that we can survive without meat. Being a carnivore is a lifestyle choice. Eating steak and the like is nothing but a pleasure for which an animal has died, often inhumanely. If you are happy with that then thats fine by me. I am increasingly less so and by buying animal friendly meat am trying to support that.


It is death for pleasure that people object to.

And meat in general is not death for pleasure? I know it is a fine line but banning hunting with hounds will not save foxes or stop them from being killed in an inhumane way but it may well impact on other wildlife some of which is already endangered. Are you happy with that as long as nobody derives pleasure from it?

I do very much take Richard point about the hounds welfare and the impact on them of the ban. The RSPCA reports I have read supported licencing and including the keeping of hounds within that licence.

Meerkat17
30th of December 2004 (Thu), 06:11
After reading this thread I feel that you have missed one important point about the "whole Bill" and that point is:

It's not a bill to single out "Fox Hunting" it also covers many other forms of hunting with dogs ie Hare Coursing, Lamping, etc. plus it will also help to strengthen the Badger Baiting Bill. These forms of hunting are rarely heard of and are usually carried out by small groups of men. To be witness to these sights would turn your stomach however, many of the hunts that I've had involvement with have been quite humane where the demise of the captured fox is concerned.

I personally don't like "blood sports" but in the past I have worked with the "Hunt" on several occassions dealing with the law concerning the blocking up of badger setts that are within the area of a hunt. I've always found the Master of the Hounds to be very accepting and to work within the boundarys of the law that is laid down.

Just my own thoughts on the subject.

Regards
David

sdommin
30th of December 2004 (Thu), 06:39
Hey guys - regardless of your views or my views on fox hunting, does any of this really belong here?

General chat
An area for subjects not appropriate for the other forums. Keep it related in some way to photography even if only in the abstract. Political and religious discussions are absolutely prohibited.

Source: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

tommykjensen
30th of December 2004 (Thu), 06:44
Hey guys - regardless of your views or my views on fox hunting, does any of this really belong here?

General chat
An area for subjects not appropriate for the other forums. Keep it related in some way to photography even if only in the abstract. Political and religious discussions are absolutely prohibited.

Source: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Actually it should be ok as the discussion was started as the result of photos. This has also been the case in the past. A few months ago there were posted some photos from a demonstration this caused a very heated debate (as far as I can remember) the debate was moved to the general chat forum leaving the photos in the share forum.