My 300D images look a bit "soft"...

[vrhee]

I'm finally getting a chance to shoot around with my Digital Rebel (300D). However, to my untrained eye, the images I'm getting appear to be a bit "soft". (I hate referring to sharpness, given how subjective that term is, but the images just don't look sharp. There, I said it.)

The original shot that left me feeling uneasy (no resizing performed; 100% crop from original):

1/160s @ f9, 55mm (88 effective) w/ stock 18-55 lens, ISO 100, Program AE:
http://www.lonestaraggie.org/junkyard/CRW_1767.jpg

Shot conditions were overcast and windy, so even with the relatively fast shutter speed, there was always the possibility of some camera shake. So...

Here are some controlled test shots (100% crops from the originals). Auto white balance and default camera parameters (Parameter 1) for all shots; no postprocessing performed except for converting from RAW to high-quality JPG:

1/13s @ f22, 18mm (28.8 effective) w/ stock 18-55 lens, ISO 100, Av-priority AE:
http://www.lonestaraggie.org/junkyard/CRW_1776.jpg
1/10s @ f22, 55mm (88 effective) w/ stock 18-55 lens, ISO 100, Av-priority AE:
http://www.lonestaraggie.org/junkyard/CRW_1777.jpg

Just for grins, I took a couple of shots with my Canon 28-135 IS lens as well. A sample:

1/6s @ f22, 50mm (80 effective) w/ 28-135 IS lens, ISO 100, Av-priority AE:
http://www.lonestaraggie.org/junkyard/CRW_1796.jpg

Shot conditions for all sample shots were calm (shot from my mostly-enclosed back patio), mostly cloudy with intermittent sunshine; all shots were taken on a tripod using a cable release (IS was turned off for the IS lens shot).

I guess I was expecting more, especially at f22. Or maybe everything looks fine and I'm just being too picky...? (For what it's worth, the images I used to get out of my Powershot S30 looked "sharper" out of the box...) I'm just trying to figure out if it's the camera or just me.

Thanks,
Vince
vrhee@yahoo.com

[Vega$50]

The lens is crap....you can get some desent results with it, but it takes a bit of trying. Try bumping your F Stop up 2....I generally get some good results that way with this lens....Just a thought...

[jaypie77]

Are those the best shots you are getting or are those just a few of the bad ones? Are you getting other shots that are good? It looks like something is wrong. I have gotten some get very good shots with that lens, but at the least they are decent. All of your shots are really soft and that shouldn't be the case at f22. One more thing - are you autofocusing or manual? If you are mf, then the eyepiece might not be in focus and thus your shots are coming out crap.

[ron chappel]

First things first-are you new to the rebel?
Did you know that the images straight from the camera will be blurier and lower in contrast than your S30 gives.This is pretty much normal!
You'll have to bump up the presets on the rebel to higher settings and probably STILL you'll want to do more work in photoshop.
I have all my presets on zero except for sharpness which is on 2 (maximum) .Even so i allmost allways have to change sharpness (sometimes alot or it doesn't look realistic)and brightness/contrast in post editing.
I haven't experimented with higherin-camera contrast settings yet but judging by how little effect the sharpness setting had,and compared to my sisters A75..i imagine it would be rather subtle

End result-you allmost allways have top post-edit images from DSLR's
By the way-the approx 50mm shots from the 18-55 and 28-135 lenses look about right for non sharpened images but the first outdoor pic doesn't look right at all

[vrhee]

jaypie77: The sample shots I linked to are no better or worse than any of the others. All the shots were taken using auto-focus; no manual focusing shots. Hmmmm... I'm not getting a warm, fuzzy feeling right now... :-|

- Vince

[jaypie77]

I don't know about those shots, they all look like crap. I'm betting that it might be the camera you got. Nothing from my camera looks remotely that fuzzy and I can't see a single thing in focus in any of your pictures. You should set up a better test, something more simple and sharp with better lighting, and then post your results here.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Vrhee.. most of the shots are at extrememly slow shutter spoeed at f/22

If there is even a hint of motion then it'll be all blurry.

To actually test the camera try to get some shots between f/8 and f/16 with shutter speeds up above 1/180 or so.. ..with decent lighting conditions. Shooting shadows never shows a Camera at its best :)

I realize you were using a cable release.. but even so.. mirror slap, or wind could really do a number at 1/6th of a second. :)

On the other hand.. the first Image definately shows something wrong as it looks like nothing is sharp at all. So either the camera was moving all over the place,.. you were focuses out to the moon,.. or perhaps the lens is a bad one.

I'd try hooting some more tests before deciding on equipment.

[Vega$50]

When I first picked the D Reb up and started taking photos, I ran into the same problems you are. Soft results, camera shake, and some color cast that didn't belong. You have to sit with it for a while and do some controlled shots in the "creative zone" (P,Tv,Av,M). Bumping the speed and aperture up and down. Even then, like Ron said, there is some post processing that almost always needs to be done. Before you become too exasperated though...I have seen some great shots with the kit lens, it can be done, there is a little learning curve. I would suggest, so you can see just what the camera can do, is go get the Canon 50mm F1.8...it is sub $100 and some great pictures can be had with it...Then you can catch the"L" disease, and before you know it...you'll be relaying this information to the next guy that comes along. Best of luck!

[F1_Fan]

Shoot your test shots as JPG and not RAW just to remove any questions pertaining to the converter's settings. The 18-55 is a OK lens... you may however have a bad copy. I get decent results with it even wide open.

One thing to note is Canon DSLR images are slightly soft by design (due to the anti-aliasing filter... removes moire, corrects colour but leaves images soft). You are expected to perform post-processing sharpening rather than rely on crappy in-camera sharpening.

In Photoshop apply Unsharp Mask (USM) at 200%, Redius: 0.3, Threshold:0 to the image you have linked above as http://www.lonestaraggie.org/junkyard/CRW_1777.jpg

You will see a marked difference. I use these settings on most of my 300D's images.

See here for details:
http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf

Actually... read every page of that PDF. It's facinating reading.

[tpinchback]

Hi Vince, this is off topic but I was at the Aggie Bonfire memorial today and just wodering did you shoot those today? What a small world!!

Gig'em

Stephen

[HKFEVER]

Vrhee.. most of the shots are at extrememly slow shutter spoeed at f/22

If there is even a hint of motion then it'll be all blurry..

I agree with this, the shutter speed is too slow. Unless you have tripod on.

[aznkid.com]

shoot at f/8..the lens isn't sharp stopped down or wide open

[vrhee]

Thanks for all the replies. As soon as I can get some better shooting conditions (anyone have any ins with Mother Nature?), I'll give it another go and see what things look like. I'm really, really hoping for "operator error" or the sort, as I'd prefer not to have to send the thing in for warranty work/replacement.

[Aside to Stephen: I took the Bonfire memorial shot when I was visiting friends a couple of days after Christmas. My first time at the memorial -- I was quite impressed. Gig 'em from the Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 1990!]

Again, thanks, all.

- Vince

[RichardtheSane]

The lens is crap....you can get some desent results with it, but it takes a bit of trying. Try bumping your F Stop up 2....I generally get some good results that way with this lens....Just a thought...

They are all at F22....


I agree with this, the shutter speed is too slow. Unless you have tripod on.

Sharpness tests even on a tripod may not be 100%, as CDS said - mirror slap... tripod would not stop that :)

Best bet is shoot in bright conditions, ISO 100/200 and F8-F11. Stopping down too far can actually reduce optical performance.

[GrinningBear]

I have experienced inconsistent exposures with my 300d, and in particular, low contrast exposures that require adjustment in Photoshop. Some of this is due to the ole learning curve with respect to metering in each of the modes, but much is not. In addition to sharpness in your photos, which could be largely due to low shutter speed, they appear to suffer from low contrast as well. After reading posts by others, apparently the digital cameras are designed to underexpose to avoid loss of information that accompanies overexposure (sensor clipping). It would have been helpful if Canon would make this well known. I am now experimenting with combinations of parameters and exposure adjustments (+ 1/3 and +2/3). Has anyone found a good compromise? I've had SLR cameras for over 30 years, but this is my first digital. I trust that I will soon see the light. (My wife is particularly irritated and disappointed, and she is also an experienced SLR user.)

[F1_Fan]

[QUOTE=GrinningBear]they appear to suffer from low contrast as well. After reading posts by others, apparently the digital cameras are designed to underexpose to avoid loss of information that accompanies overexposure (sensor clipping). [QUOTE]

In general the 300D (for me) tends towards the underexposure side. That's recoverable in software.... however, ignore the LCD preview for exposure and always shoot with histogram preview and you'llnever be surprised.

He's shooting at f22 on what looks like an overcast day. The camera is struggling to get enough light. From the PDF I posted above:

"Avoid the use of small apertures with wide-angle or wide-zoom lenses: Small apertures can cause sharpness-degrading diffraction..."

"... it's important to realize that picturs taken on overcast days... look softer than pictures taken on sunny days..."

[mdude85]

I don't think that shutter speed is too slow, especially given the focal length -- a shutter speed under 1/60 seconds would be pushing it. This person is shooting at, what, 1/160 seconds at f/9? Shots should be quite sharp even with the 18-55 lens.

In addition, it is an important skill to be able to tell softness from camera shake .. taking a quick glance at these photos indicate that they're soft, not that there is camera shake. Characteristics of camera shake is that the image takes on a slight "motion blur" in one direction, but is generally sharp in the opposite direction (think about it for a second and you'll understand what I mean). These photos are blurred on all the edges... this indicates softness due to something other than camera shake.

[csondagar]

See here for details:
http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf

Actually... read every page of that PDF. It's facinating reading.

F1_Fan: this is an excellent read. Most of the Custom Functions are not applicable to 300D as these functions to donot exist. However, most of the other text is generic, and applicable to most of the Canon Cameras and Lenses. Is there such a document specifically for 300D?

[Hellashot]

It appears you're shooting in raw. And if you're not doing any post processing to the image it will look soft because no sharpening has been applied to it. When shooting in JPG it applies adjustments to the image as it takes it, such as contrast, color boost, and sharpening.

Try sharpening your images and see the difference it makes.

I've taken very good images with the kit lens, so I'm not sure why so many respondents are calling the lens crap and to only use it at f8+. I've gotten great results using it at its widest. They may be comparing it to professional lenses, but for $90 it is an extreme value!

[F1_Fan]

F1_Fan: this is an excellent read. Most of the Custom Functions are not applicable to 300D as these functions to donot exist. However, most of the other text is generic, and applicable to most of the Canon Cameras and Lenses. Is there such a document specifically for 300D?Not that I'm aware of. It's a "professional" document so really not designed for the 300D's market.

What's most interesting to me are the sections that compare the pro cameras to the 300D... you can really understand how the 300D is tweaked for out-of-the-box images.

Here's the parent link which also has a tutorial on sharpening of RAW images (I haven't read it yet).

[F1_Fan]

It appears you're shooting in raw. And if you're not doing any post processing to the image it will look soft because no sharpening has been applied to it.
If he's using Canon's utility, shooting in RAW and Parameter 1 then I believe there will be sharpening applied (+2??) when outputting to JPEG. The RAW image isn't sharpened but the processing will be done with "as shot" parameters.

[mr.photoguy]

I'm sorry if this was answered already, but is he shooting these photo's in Raw or jpg mode?

[F1_Fan]

I'm sorry if this was answered already, but is he shooting these photo's in Raw or jpg mode?RAW... you can tell by the CRW_ prefix. JPEGs are IMG_ (also he says it's RAW in his first post).

[mr.photoguy]

ok thanks.

[F1_Fan]

I decided to play with my 300D in similar conditions (a little darker though). This is shot in AdobeRGB (which means the user parameters are all zero), ISO 100, 0.8s, f22, 55mm. These are 100% crops and the right side shows the result of Canon's recommended sharpening.

http://www.foosoftware.com/photo/scripted/demos/usm_demo_srgb.jpg

[WestFalcon]

Good examples..... F1 Fan....to me it looks like the original poster has problems which are related to post processing or a lack of it.

[deezeljuice]

Keep trying different variations with the fstop and shutter speeds. That lens is capable of some very good results.
Gig'em Aggies. The Cotton Bowl is on right now. It's gonna be tough...
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of '76

[montyl]

I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth on all of this. First of all if you think that your camera is the cause of you pictures being "soft", do not let it do any processing of your pictures. (i.e shoot a few in RAW mode. Your camera has enough to do just getting the settings right to take the picture, adding processing to it also, means the camera has to make compromises. Second of all shooting in JPEG means that you do not want all that your camera is willing to give to you. Remember JPEG is a graphics format compression algorithum, meaning it removes information (1's & 0's) from your picture to save it, and once it does that that information is gone FOREVER. And by removing inforamtion from your pictures will induce a soft look to them. If you are shooting in RAW, and the pictures still have a "soft" look about them, well then maybe it is time to look at your lenses, but I doubt it would be the body at that point.

[vrhee]

Original poster here again...

Haven't had a chance to reshoot anything in "better" conditions -- been raining here all freakin' day (could have taken the DRebel to the Cotton Bowl yesterday, but (a) it was raining off and on all game, so I didn't take it, and (b) I probably would have ended up throwing it against a nearby wall in reaction to the game itself).

However, given some of the followup posts in this thread, I'm feeling a bit less concerned about my perceived softness in my original images. As with many things, I may have been assuming something that didn't reflect reality -- that is, assuming that images would be razor sharp out of the box. Not a problem, though -- I can Unsharp Mask with the best of 'em. :-) (Thanks esp. to F1_Fan for the sharpening pointers.)

Thanks again for all the comments. Quite a learning experience.

- Vince

[davidwegs]

This is the Lens IMO

Try the 35/2, 50/1.8, 85/1.8 and the 135/2.8SF for starters. The difference is like having the light turned on.

I shot with the 300d as my first DSLR too (came from Nikon film) and that is not a good lens to see the best results from.

Regards.

[edsarkiss]

i think the images look fine.

at 100% on your monitor, the total image size from a drebel would be about 40x28" (72dpi) or 30x20" (96dpi). if you stand back an appropriate distance (the diagonal measurement of the total image size), i think you will no longer see the "softness".

for example, here is a super-sharp shot i took with a 10D and 200/2.8L (a lens regarded for its sharpness at all apertures). a 18x12 inch print of this is beautiful...
http://nobot.oceanairflightservices.com/20041225-galapagos/images/10d_CRW_6377.jpg

and here's a 100% crop from the area that is most sharply focused...
http://nobot.oceanairflightservices.com/20041225-galapagos/images/10d_CRW_6377_crop.jpg

at 100%, it's not super-sharp. note that i did apply some slight sharpening in CaptureOne when converting from RAW to JPEG. not sure if you did any sharpening on your test shots.

so my advice: stop pixel-peeping and look at some real prints. if you are evaluating 100% crops, you need to lower your expectations of what you'll see. also, it's not clear from your post if your crops are from the center or the edges of the image. with the kit lens, this matters. also, your f/22 tests will not give you the best lens performance. the sweet spot of most lenses is around f/8 (your first shot at f/9 should be the sharpest). i think your images show normal performance for the kit lens.