A80 focus difficulty in group pictures

[kathy1]

Hi,
Could someone please help me with this problem: When I take shots of groups of people, I cannot get everyone in the group into focus, whether it is one or two rows of people, taken about 10 feet away. I have tried the following: Auto mode with and without AiAF; AV mode with and without flash, ISO of 50 and 200, with and without AiAF; AV mode with manual focus; pressing focus 1/2 way to focus, and then recomposing; using a tripod and not using one on these different settings. Nothing seems to help bring all people into focus. Any suggestions welcome. Thank you.
Kathy

[kathy1]

Does anyone have an A80 camera? I need help in setting my camera to get clear indoor group pictures. Thanks.
Kathy

[eastcoast909]

Kathy:

Do you have a picture of one of these that you have taken?? Is there a focal point at any place in the picture or are they entirely out of focus. It would help to see a picture and the exif information for it at the same time.

[Jon]

You're not trying to do anything that's outside the limits of the camera. It's possible that you're getting camera shake (even with a tripod, unless you use Remote Capture (from your computer) you have to press the shutter button directly and that can shake the camera). The flash is going to be able to almost give you enough light for a picture indoors under those conditions. But without seeing the actual pictures and EXIF information, it's very difficult to diagnose.

[kathy1]

Thank you for your replies. Here is a typical group picture I have taken. As you see, some people are in focus (the person in the front row, and the two on the right in the second row), and some not. I am embarrassed to have to ask, but what is EXIF? I used my A80 on the Auto mode...all settings left as factory set, and I used a tripod. This was a JPEG image, original was 1.70 MB, and dimensions 1866x1380. I realize I have a lot to learn and I will be very grateful to you, if I can learn what settings to use for "in focus" indoor group shots.
Kathy

[Jon]

The EXIF data is recorded in the picture you take; it includes shutter speed, aperture, lens focal length, flash usage, camera among other things. If you look at the picture in Zoom Browser, among other programs, you'll be able to see this. Your posted example was taken at 1/60 f/2.8, 7.81 mm focal length (full wide) and auto flash with red-eye reduction.

Looking at the picture, even on the left end of the line, the ladies' skirts look sharp; the fuzzy area seems to be mainly the upper left corner of the picture. If it hadn't been a flash picture, and had been a slower shutter speed, I'd consider that the two ladies on the left might have moved their upper bodies. Also, the line-up's at an angle to the camera, so you're increasing the depth of the group; this will make it somewhat harder for the camera to cope. It looks like the camera's focussed on the ladies in red, although the seated lady is also sharp. The lady on the extreme left is significantly closer to the camera than the others as well. What I think you may have is a combination of things, though. In addition to the group being at an angle to the camera, your lens may have been knocked slightly out of alignment at some point, which would throw off the plane of focus. An alternate possibility, if you pressed the shutter yourself instead of using the self-timer, is that you might have shaken the camera, even with a tripod. Try lining the camera up absolutely square to a patterned surface, take a picture of that and see how that looks; this will let you know if your camera's focussing evenly. You should try to do this with the lens wide open (use Av and set it to f/2.8) and with a subject say 3-5 feet away, so you'll have minimum depth of field. You may want to turn off the flash, so you don't get a hot spot from semi-glossy surfaces.

[47Carleton]

odd.

do you consistently see fuzziness in your pictures, especially in the top left corner? to me, the fire extinguisher looks a bit more fuzzy than any other object in the picture, and it's a stationary object. compare the sharpness of the lace table cover below the extinguisher.

thoughts?

[kathy1]

Yes, I do consistently see fuzziness in the upper left hand corner...but it is most noticeable when taking pictures of groups of people. Here are two pictures I took in Auto mode, with no changes made (other than putting in on macro setting)...that now I also see have fuzziness in the upper left hand corner. Do you think I have something faulty with my camera? ...or just need to set it differently. I will try the Av at f/2.8 with subject 3-5 feet away (with flash off), and let you know how that turns out. Thanks.
Kathy

[Jon]

If you consistently see a fuzzy upper left corner, then I do think the camera's got a problem; maybe something with/in the lens.

[eastcoast909]

Kathy:

I did a calculation of the depth of field that you should get with these settings.

You should have no problem with this camera with the settings you have getting the entire group in focus.

According to http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html you should achieve an acceptable sharpness from a range of 5 1/2 feet through to 65 feet. All your group should be in focus even if they are slanted a little from one side to the other.

I would say that you have a problem with the camera if you cannot achieve a sharp focus on this group. Do you have the same problem with a single object at 10 feet using the same settings that you used?

[Pugdaddy]

Take that camera back immediatly, if not sooner, Kathy. No one in that group picture is really in focus. Some people are just a little clearer than others. These "A" cameras take much much clearer pictures than that just using auto itself, let alone using a tripod. Nothing personal, sweetheart, but I've seen clearer pictures come out of a 5 dollar disposable. Somethings wrong with your camera, dear. Get a different A80 and you'll be much happier. Trust me.

(2 minutes later) Now that I went back and looked at that photo one more time, thats not even a focus problem. The pixels are huge! Look closely at the red dress. I think your using about a 500 pixel camera there. Take it back!

[Jon]

Take that camera back immediatly, if not sooner, Kathy. No one in that group picture is really in focus. Some people are just a little clearer than others. These "A" cameras take much much clearer pictures than that just using auto itself, let alone using a tripod. Nothing personal, sweetheart, but I've seen clearer pictures come out of a 5 dollar disposable. Somethings wrong with your camera, dear. Get a different A80 and you'll be much happier. Trust me.

(2 minutes later) Now that I went back and looked at that photo one more time, thats not even a focus problem. The pixels are huge! Look closely at the red dress. I think your using about a 500 pixel camera there. Take it back!
No, she resized the image; it's a 1724 x 1380 pixel image, which isn't a standard format for the A80. So what you're seeing is pixellation from a re-size (probably with attendant compression boost). Note to Kathy - if you need to resize an image for posting, use an even reduction, preferably 1/2 or 1/4 (depending on the original size) and post some 100% (unresized) clips from key areas as well. It's also helpful if you tell us it was resized. As you can see, it's easy for people to misinterpret a resized image.

There is a clear problem; 47carleton and I both noticed the excessive fuzziness on the upper left corner, since confirmed by Kathy. She's got a lens problem, probably due to impact damage. And as it's an A80, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it's out of warranty; certainly out of the exchange period.

[kathy1]

Thank you all for your helpful hints. Yes, my camera is just off warranty from Canon. However, I purchased an extended warranty from the store where I purchased it. I will take it back and see what can be done...wish I had found your website sooner! I am so glad I worked up the courage to get your opinions. I have been wondering if it might be a problem with the camera itself. I have never dropped my camera, and never lent it to anyone else, so maybe the problem has always been there...just that this is my first digital camera, and didn't know what to expect. Jon, thank you for the message you just posted...for future resizing of pictures for posting. Bless you all for your help.
Kathy

[47Carleton]

Kathy,

good luck with the camera. I also own the A80 and am very pleased with it. I hope you can get it replaced (lucky you for purchasing the extended warranty). You will be forever pleased with this as your first (maybe only?) digital camera.

these forums provide a wealth of info, so visit often... i don't post often, but i DO lurk here for helpful info!

cheers!

[Pugdaddy]

Gotcha, Jon. I knew that seeing all those pixels like that wasn't just a focusing problem. I was thinking, "don't these guys see all those squares?". That'll teach me to act like I know what I'm talking about when I don't.
Deffinitely listen to these guys, Kathy. They know their stuff.

[kathy1]

Could someone give me directions on how to re-size pictures for this site. I made a big mess of it above, and I don't want to repeat that! My originals are usally between 1.2 and 2.2 MB. What would be the exact process to get them to stay clear, and under the 100 kb that this site uses? Thank you.
Kathy

[Jon]

I usually resize (for whatever purpose) only in fractions of 2; 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and only as far as the I can go without having the output size go to something and 1/2 pixels on a side. What else you'd want to do would depend on why you're posting. In this case, a smaller picture with several 100% crops from various places would have been best. If you're posting in "Photo Sharing" you can use JPEG compression more freely than if there's a problem like you were asking about (since the compression will tend to give you blocky colour areas, it can mask problems). The smaller you size the picture to, the less compression you'll need to meet the 100 K limit. Many of the people here post links to their pictures stored on other sites (free or paid for), which eliminates the 100 KB size restriction.

[Moppie]

If you have a look in the post processing forum there is a sticky thread at the top with some links, one is a basic resizing tutorial :)


I usualy (99.9% of the time) use photoshop to reduce the imag about 50% untill its close to 800 pixels on its longest edge. Then I simply resize from there to 800pixels.
Photoshop will let you resize my % as well as exact pixel amounts, but when making large changes its best to work in amounts of 25% or 50% untill you are close to your desired size. resizeing from 900pixels to 800pixels will have an unnoticable effect on your image, but going from 2272pixels to 800pixels in one stip will ruin it.

I then use a small amount of UnSharp Mask. Its under filters/sharpen and enhances some of the detail lost when the image is resized.

[kathy1]

I tried the test Jon mentioned...using AV mode, f2.8, about 3-4 feet away, no flash, square to the picture surface. Here are two samples from the test (100% unre-sized crops). I noticed there was a little area in the lower right corner that was similar to the upper left, but the upper left was much more out of focus...and included a larger area. The lower left and upper right side were similar to the center. It didn't seem to matter if the AiAF was on or off. I have not been able to get back to the store yet, where I purchased the camera, but if it is not "fixable," would I be happy with an A95? Or is there another Canon someone would recommend instead? These things are important to me: flip LCD, no redeye (I had very little with the A80), clear indoor pictures of family groups (8-12 people usually), pictures of family documents, good in dim lighting, and outdoor shots.

[Jon]

I'd think you'd be very happy with an A95; it should be an almost seamless transition from the A80. If you wanted to move beyond that, I'd suggest either the G6 or maybe the Pro 1. The next step beyond them would be into the DSLR range with a Digital Rebel, a 20D, or a (probably used, but if the store will offer you one in exchange for your A80 grab it) 10D.

[kathy1]

Thank you for your advice. I will let you know what happens with the warranty service.
Kathy

[kathy1]

I want to thank all of you that tried to help me with my A80 focus problem. When it was apparent that it was a faulty camera, I took it back to the store, received credit for it, and then purchased a G6. I am so glad I had purchased the extended warranty!
Thanks again.
Kathy

[eastcoast909]

Way to go! :cool:

I'm positive that you will like this one. Keep this up and you will be looking at the DSLR's. :lol: :lol:

Don't forget to show us some pictures!

[Jon]

That's great!