Pocket Wizards Vs. Radio Poppers

[twistedinsight]

I'm in the process of researching these two items, and I am looking for some real input from the ones that use these things, so have at it :)

Also, what all would I need if I just wanted to have the ability to use two flashes (one Sigma 500dg Super and Canon 580EX II) and fire them into umbrella, and maybe a softbox.

Any web links or insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

[Zilly]

radio poppers give you full ettl controll over flash unit (basicly they extend the rage of the canon ir ettl system)

where as pocket wizards will only deliver a fire command thus you need to use your flashes in Manual

[darktiger]

I went through the same thing. I ended up with PW just because with Radio Poppers you have to have a flash or ST-E2 still on the camera. To me that defeated my purpose of getting the flash off the camera.

[Zilly]

I went through the same thing. I ended up with PW just because with Radio Poppers you have to have a flash or ST-E2 still on the camera. To me that defeated my purpose of getting the flash off the camera.

how is using ettl with off camera flash defeating the object of off camera flash

[bieber]

I'm guessing he only had one flash...

[DDCSD]

how is using ettl with off camera flash defeating the object of off camera flash

I won't be getting RP's because I don't want to buy a radio trigger system, then have to buy a 580EX or ST-E2 to make it work. RP's are great products and unique, but I personally see limited use in ETTL off camera. Not saying it is not useful, but I'd rather just buy some triggers myself.

OP, you may want to look into the Elinchrom Skyports (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/505381-REG/Elinchrom_EL_19360_EL_Skyport_Universal_Radio_Slav e.html) as well, great reliable system for about half of what the PW's cost. The range is less however, at about 400 ft.

You could have the 580 fire with the radio trigger and use the optical slave on the 500 for most applications.

[tim]

After reading a 3 page thread on another forum recently:
- Radio Poppers: new technology, bit of a hack, seems good but it's first generation. Makes things easy but equipment maybe not to robust/reliable.
- Pocket Wizards: industry standard, rock solid, triggers from huge distances, you have to work in manual mode. Expensive.
- Skyports (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/505381-REG/Elinchrom_EL_19360_EL_Skyport_Universal_Radio_Slav e.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114): completely reliable, range less than PWs but still enough for 99% of people, have to work in manual mode, half the price of PWs.

I'm getting Skyports. NB: they come in different versions, get the universal version (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/505381-REG/Elinchrom_EL_19360_EL_Skyport_Universal_Radio_Slav e.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114) unless you have Elinchrom strobes. Extra receivers here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/505378-REG/Elinchrom_EL_19352_EL_Skyport_Universal_Radio_Slav e.html/BI/2312/KBID/3114).

[figmented]

To be honest, I just learned how to properly use ETTL w/ ratios and slaves - it really is an awesome setup, and radio poppers makes it awesome..

Most people that compare RP's to PW's have no idea the benefit of shooting ETTL ratio lighting.. I guess I'll only be ahead of the curve for a little while until people start figuring it out or they make it easier to do.. (read easier to figure out)

[GerBee]

Was anxiously waiting for Radio Poppers and having seen the eventual product, they are a kludge and will be more in the way for serious or professional use.

The product needs a lot more refinement or better yet, sold to Canon as a built in solution. Has potential *****

The PW is a refined product and robust for professional use. It does not support ETTL which is a major drawback for some quick setup situations. It is also a bit expensive but extremely reliable.

Built in PWs already exist and some cameras can be custom modified to accommodate
they are only available on prfessional units so this goes into the interesting but not relevant class.

An optical slave cell, just a few dollars is all that's actually needed to fire any two flashes simultaneously, no ETTL though.

The ST-E2 has been mentioned already and should work fine with your units. I've just put batteries in my 500DG and yes it works from the ST-E2 ~~ not too sure if ratios are working though. A second hand ST-E2 may well be worth acquiring.

[Village_Idiot]

I'm in the process of researching these two items, and I am looking for some real input from the ones that use these things, so have at it :)

Also, what all would I need if I just wanted to have the ability to use two flashes (one Sigma 500dg Super and Canon 580EX II) and fire them into umbrella, and maybe a softbox.

Any web links or insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

AFAIK, the 580 and the sigma will not communicate with each other. Is this correct? If so, buying the RP's would do nothing for you now.

[PacAce]

AFAIK, the 580 and the sigma will not communicate with each other. Is this correct? If so, buying the RP's would do nothing for you now.
Yes, they will. Now whether they always understand each other is open to debate but they can communicate with each other.

[Bob D.]

"The range is less however, at about 400 ft"

I read the above and thought...would it be possible to extend the range of wireless triggers using a repeater type technique? Would there be too much delay? I don't know the answers and I can't try it 'cause I don't have the hardware to do it out but I can tell you what I am thinking might work and maybe someone can shoot it full of holes of prove or disprove it.

You'll need two transmitters, each an a different transmit frequency
Also need two receivers and two flashes.


Setup XMTR #1 on camera.
Place Flash #1 some distance (close to its MAX range) away from the camera.
Fire a test shot and verify the setup and range are OK so far.
Place XMTR #2 alongside RCVR #1.
Set XMTR #2 on a frequency other than that of XMTR #1.
Connect XMTR #2 using a hotshoe adapter or what have you so that it is fired by RCVR #1 along with Flash #1.
Place RCVR #2 and Flash #2 some distance (close to MAX) from XMTR #2.
Set RCVR #2 on frequency 2.
Fire off a couple test shots and see what happens.Actually you wouldn't need a flash at the middle location, you could just chain a receiver to a transmitter.

The contacts on the transmitters and receivers should be dry (produce no voltage of their own, just close a set of contacts), so shouldn't hurt either half of the setup.

[tim]

To be honest, I just learned how to properly use ETTL w/ ratios and slaves - it really is an awesome setup, and radio poppers makes it awesome..

Most people that compare RP's to PW's have no idea the benefit of shooting ETTL ratio lighting.. I guess I'll only be ahead of the curve for a little while until people start figuring it out or they make it easier to do.. (read easier to figure out)

ETTL is very quick and helpful, and RPs are a kludge. The more experienced I get the more I shoot in manual, mostly to get consistency to make my PP easier.

[PacAce]

"The range is less however, at about 400 ft"

I read the above and thought...would it be possible to extend the range of wireless triggers using a repeater type technique? Would there be too much delay? I don't know the answers and I can't try it 'cause I don't have the hardware to do it out but I can tell you what I am thinking might work and maybe someone can shoot it full of holes of prove or disprove it.

You'll need two transmitters, each an a different transmit frequency
Also need two receivers and two flashes.


Setup XMTR #1 on camera.
Place Flash #1 some distance (close to its MAX range) away from the camera.
Fire a test shot and verify the setup and range are OK so far.
Place XMTR #2 alongside RCVR #1.
Set XMTR #2 on a frequency other than that of XMTR #1.
Connect XMTR #2 using a hotshoe adapter or what have you so that it is fired by RCVR #1 along with Flash #1.
Place RCVR #2 and Flash #2 some distance (close to MAX) from XMTR #2.
Set RCVR #2 on frequency 2.
Fire off a couple test shots and see what happens.Actually you wouldn't need a flash at the middle location, you could just chain a receiver to a transmitter.

The contacts on the transmitters and receivers should be dry (produce no voltage of their own, just close a set of contacts), so shouldn't hurt either half of the setup.
The PocketWizard Plus II and MultiMax units work exactly as you described above in Relay mode except that the transmitter (XMTR #2) and receiver (RCVR #1) are incorporated into one PW unit. :)

[buto]

ETTL is very quick and helpful, and RPs are a kludge. The more experienced I get the more I shoot in manual, mostly to get consistency to make my PP easier.

I also considered getting RPs but also thought about the inconsistency in ETTL over manual. So I am just going to save up and get some PWs.

[CorzyPhoto]

Why aren't Skyports in this competition?

[DDCSD]

"The range is less however, at about 400 ft"

I read the above and thought...would it be possible to extend the range of wireless triggers using a repeater type technique? Would there be too much delay? I don't know the answers and I can't try it 'cause I don't have the hardware to do it out but I can tell you what I am thinking might work and maybe someone can shoot it full of holes of prove or disprove it.

You'll need two transmitters, each an a different transmit frequency
Also need two receivers and two flashes.

Setup XMTR #1 on camera.
Place Flash #1 some distance (close to its MAX range) away from the camera.
Fire a test shot and verify the setup and range are OK so far.
Place XMTR #2 alongside RCVR #1.
Set XMTR #2 on a frequency other than that of XMTR #1.
Connect XMTR #2 using a hotshoe adapter or what have you so that it is fired by RCVR #1 along with Flash #1.
Place RCVR #2 and Flash #2 some distance (close to MAX) from XMTR #2.
Set RCVR #2 on frequency 2.
Fire off a couple test shots and see what happens.Actually you wouldn't need a flash at the middle location, you could just chain a receiver to a transmitter.

The contacts on the transmitters and receivers should be dry (produce no voltage of their own, just close a set of contacts), so shouldn't hurt either half of the setup.

I am sure that it is possible, but you may lose some sync speed, as you mentioned. It'd be cheaper in the end to just get the PW's if you needed the extra range though. ;)

One thing that is fun is if you have a camera that does not have a hotshoe or PC connector but allows manual control of the flash, you can hook an optical trigger up to the Skyport transmitter to fire an external flash. I'm guessing you could to the same with PW's with the right cables.

[kong]

I have 4 sets of PW's. use them to trigger remote cameras and flash. Have no problems and love them..... I now am the owner of 2 sets of RP's,,, don't knock them till ya' try them, they have there place and work flawlessly. Great addition to my equipment list.

[Magic_Puzzle]

Radio Poppers are a nice concept and allow ETTL operations,but the maker got greedy and decided to overcharge for them by pricing them as high as Pocket Wizards. Millions of professionals have proven that the PW's are state-of-the-art and the benchmark for quality and reliability. Why would anyone buy some knockoff like the Poppers when they can get the pro's choice for the same price? Photographers have gotten along perfectly well and are assured of great results with the Wizards. The Poppers have no real benefit, especially when they are so simple and inexpensive to make, but priced so outrageously high.

[DDCSD]

Radio Poppers are a nice concept and allow ETTL operations,but the maker got greedy and decided to overcharge for them by pricing them as high as Pocket Wizards. Millions of professionals have proven that the PW's are state-of-the-art and the benchmark for quality and reliability. Why would anyone buy some knockoff like the Poppers when they can get the pro's choice for the same price? Photographers have gotten along perfectly well and are assured of great results with the Wizards. The Poppers have no real benefit, especially when they are so simple and inexpensive to make, but priced so outrageously high.

Hmmmm.... so you can design, market and manufacture a set of ETTL radio triggers for less? RP's are priced competitively, offer a similar range as the PW's and add ETTL functionality. Some might say that the PW's are the greedy, overpriced option.

I'm not a big fan of RP's, but they are a good product and insinuating that they are priced high because the maker is greedy is ludacris. Some people think that charging $100 for an 11x14 means that a photographer is greedy. Don't like the price, don't buy the product. Trying to run down someone who has worked hard and spent countless hours developing an idea is just baffling. The price of something isn't all in the manufacturing process. Isn't your time worth something?

[pcunite]

Radio Poppers are a nice concept and allow ETTL operations,but the maker got greedy and decided to overcharge for them by pricing them as high as Pocket Wizards.

Whoooaaa I think he is just trying to get his money back that he spent developing them... Lower prices come after initial costs have been recovered...

[jgogums]

Radio Poppers are a nice concept and allow ETTL operations,but the maker got greedy and decided to overcharge for them by pricing them as high as Pocket Wizards. Millions of professionals have proven that the PW's are state-of-the-art and the benchmark for quality and reliability. Why would anyone buy some knockoff like the Poppers when they can get the pro's choice for the same price? Photographers have gotten along perfectly well and are assured of great results with the Wizards. The Poppers have no real benefit, especially when they are so simple and inexpensive to make, but priced so outrageously high.

Knockoff? What exactly are they copying? The guy figured out how to take an IR signal, turn into radio, send it, have it received and converted back into and IR signal at 1/8000 of a second.
Easy huh...:confused:...

[Bob D.]

The PocketWizard Plus II and MultiMax units work exactly as you described above in Relay mode except that the transmitter (XMTR #2) and receiver (RCVR #1) are incorporated into one PW unit. :)


OK, wasn't aware they would operate in that manner.

[FlashZebra]

Radio Poppers are a nice concept and allow ETTL operations,but the maker got greedy and decided to overcharge for them by pricing them as high as Pocket Wizards. Millions of professionals have proven that the PW's are state-of-the-art and the benchmark for quality and reliability. Why would anyone buy some knockoff like the Poppers when they can get the pro's choice for the same price? Photographers have gotten along perfectly well and are assured of great results with the Wizards. The Poppers have no real benefit, especially when they are so simple and inexpensive to make, but priced so outrageously high.
Where were you on the stop down metering / automatic aperture metering question?

How about the great manual focus / automatic focus showdown?

Or the film / digital face off?

The "Photographers have gotten along perfectly well" argument would seem to apply there also.

I am not a zealot for Radio Poppers, or Pocket Wizards, but just because something is in widespread use now, and is utilitarian, does not mean that something else might not come along to replace it (and I am not saying that Radio Popper is that product).

But, if you move back about 8 or 10 years (or so) you could have used the same argument with Pocket Wizards being the upstart to the market that was totally controlled by Quantum.

"Photographers have gotten along perfectly well" with Quantum radio slaves.

Enjoy! Lon

[bieber]

Radio Poppers are a nice concept and allow ETTL operations,but the maker got greedy and decided to overcharge for them by pricing them as high as Pocket Wizards. Millions of professionals have proven that the PW's are state-of-the-art and the benchmark for quality and reliability. Why would anyone buy some knockoff like the Poppers when they can get the pro's choice for the same price? Photographers have gotten along perfectly well and are assured of great results with the Wizards. The Poppers have no real benefit, especially when they are so simple and inexpensive to make, but priced so outrageously high.

You're kidding, right? For starters, greed is almost never an issue in pricing products, unless you consider maximizing your profits greed. I call it common sense. Market price is determined by the intersection of the supply and demand curves, where marginal revenue equals marginal cost, and so on. Fortunately, your idea of "fairness" isn't involved in the calculation.

As for the Poppers themselves, they occupy an entirely different role from Pocket Wizards. Pocket Wizards are still going to be the choice if you need to fire studio strobes or remote cameras, or if you're on a tight budget. Radio Poppers are for people with the cash to use multi-flash ETTL. As much as I'd love to have abilities like high speed sync with radio triggers, I can't afford a bag full of dedicated strobes, so it's still Pocket Wizards for me...

[DDCSD]

Pocket Wizards are still going to be the choice if you need to fire studio strobes or remote cameras, or if you're on a tight budget.

That's the first time I've ever heard that PW's are for people on a tight budget. ;)

Kinda kidding, I do see your point, you can get a PW & a cheap strobe for about what a 430EX costs.

[bieber]

That's the first time I've ever heard that PW's are for people on a tight budget. ;)

Kinda kidding, I do see your point, you can get a PW & a cheap strobe for about what a 430EX costs.

Yep. Radio Poppers are technically cheaper, but when you consider that you have to couple them with more expensive strobes, well, you see what happens. Especially considering that they can't act as a standalone transmitter.

[somtim]

I have two RP receivers hooked to 580 EX II's and a RP transceiver on an ST-E2 and couldn't be happier (well the hookup is a bit hokey) but I can shoot with ETTL at 200 mm at 2.8 with shutter sync speeds as fast as I want to go. I know the HSS has less power but FEC covers that. For me, I get to use all the functions of my 5D with ETTL, manual, ratios, high speed sync, and i can shoot at whatever aperture I want. I got tired of constantly shooting at f8-12 and having 1/200th shutter sync limitations and missing all the bokeh. Great product and well worth the money. My only want is for them to be built into the flash itself as the RP setup is not as durable as I would like.

[Mike V]

Knockoff? What exactly are they copying? The guy figured out how to take an IR signal, turn into radio, send it, have it received and converted back into and IR signal at 1/8000 of a second.
Easy huh...:confused:...


Build your own:

http://www.rentron.com/IR_TO_RF.htm


or convert something like this:


http://www.amazon.com/Next-Generation-Remote-Control-Extender/dp/B000C1Z0HA

[bieber]

but FEC covers that.

I'm afraid it doesn't. FEC is just about how much light your flash decides to put out, it has nothing to do with what it's capable of. The problem with HSS is that the maximum power of your flash is actually decreased: it has nothing to do with how it's metering the flash.

[jgogums]

Build your own:

http://www.rentron.com/IR_TO_RF.htm


or convert something like this:


http://www.amazon.com/Next-Generation-Remote-Control-Extender/dp/B000C1Z0HA
Your links mention nothing about syncing the signal at precise shutter speeds. A mildly important detail the inventor of RP's figured out.

[bieber]

Your links mention nothing about syncing the signal at precise shutter speeds. A mildly important detail the inventor of RP's figured out.

I don't think it's really as big a deal as you're making it. Radio Waves travel at the speed of light, so as long as the latency in the system is low enough, the problem really isn't a problem to begin with: IR signals should be almost instantaneously turned into RF and vice-versa.

[jgogums]

ok.

[somtim]

[QUOTE]I'm afraid it doesn't. FEC is just about how much light your flash decides to put out, it has nothing to do with what it's capable of. The problem with HSS is that the maximum power of your flash is actually decreased: it has nothing to do with how it's metering the flash./QUOTE]
I don't dispute that, all I know is the flash has more light in HSS when I up the FEC. Whether or not the light is metered up or actually producing more light isn't really that important to me (kinda like ISO) as long as it allows me to use a higher shutter on sunny days and a large aperture when I want, I am a happy camper. I own PW's as well but prefer the RP's for how I shoot.

[PacAce]

I'm afraid it doesn't. FEC is just about how much light your flash decides to put out, it has nothing to do with what it's capable of. The problem with HSS is that the maximum power of your flash is actually decreased: it has nothing to do with how it's metering the flash.]
I don't dispute that, all I know is the flash has more light in HSS when I up the FEC. Whether or not the light is metered up or actually producing more light isn't really that important to me (kinda like ISO) as long as it allows me to use a higher shutter on sunny days and a large aperture when I want, I am a happy camper. I own PW's as well but prefer the RP's for how I shoot.

You will get more light (whether in HSS or not) by upping the FEC only if the flash is not firing at full power. But if it it, then not matter how much FEC you dial in, you're not going to get any more increase in flash output because the flash has already maxed out.

[c71clark]

I agree that Skyports should be in this debate. They seem to be a viable alternative.

[twistedinsight]

Ok, i change the question :)

Pocket Wizards Vs Radio Poppers Vs Skyports :)

Why do you love the radio poppers? PWizards? SkyPorts?

[tim]

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5822302

[jcanon701]

will canon ever make flashes with built in capabilities of the radio popper?

[bieber]

will canon ever make flashes with built in capabilities of the radio popper?
Probably in 20 years, when the patents in question expire...

[jcanon701]

seems like the choise now is to get BOTH radio poppers (when it gets more developed) and pocket wizards. i'm sure there are plenty of pros out there that can afford it. people just starting to learn about wireless strobe will have to stick with one.

[tim]

will canon ever make flashes with built in capabilities of the radio popper?

Unlikely, as they'd need to have the radio modules certified in every country in the world.

[DDCSD]

Unlikely, as they'd need to have the radio modules certified in every country in the world.

Very good point, every camera/flash would need to be pretty much country-specific, which would increase manufacturing costs unbelievabley.

[bieber]

Unlikely, as they'd need to have the radio modules certified in every country in the world.
If I were them, I'd go with an add-in module, much smaller than a Radio Popper (preferably something that could fit entirely inside the strobe, so as not to be noticed at all): that could be country specific, and the strobe itself generic. But first they'd have to resolve the patent issues...

[tim]

It's having a transmitter inside the camera that's the problem, I think.

[bieber]

It's having a transmitter inside the camera that's the problem, I think.
Just make an ST-E3 with a plug-in slot for country-specific radio modules. I mean, they're still not doing infared triggering with the popup flash, so I can't imagine them going so far as to actually embed a radio transmitter in-camera. I sometimes get the feeling that Canon's just given up with trying to make their flash system compete...