How best to shoot a brown beer bottle?

[ebann]

I've been trying to shoot a brown beer bottle for a friend of mine who is starting his beer business.

I've set up a small table with a nice blue sheet from wall to table top forming a nice infinite blue background. I placed the bottle on the table, my 5D with 50/2.8 macro lens on a tripod with 580EX flash set as master, a 420EX as slave on a tripod to the right of the bottle. Note: I shot in my living room.

I noticed that when I shot with the 580EX pointed to the ceiling (2.5 meters) I got a huge hot spot on the beer bottle. When I pointed it directly to the bottle, the huge hot spot disappeared.

Here is my problem: I am getting annoying reflections on the bottle, that is, my living room, tripod, piano, sofa, etc. behind me is "imprinted" in the bottle's reflection. I also notice two small flash spot on the bottle.

Do I have to shoot in a clean empty room with black/dark boards all over the place to clear out the nasty reflections?

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

[bieber]

You're just going about it completely wrong for shooting glass. What you need to be doing is lighting the background, not the bottle. Typically, you'll do either a dark field glass shot, where the background is black, and then you light a bright white border around the background out of view, so that it reflects in the edges of the bottle, or bright field, where you light a bright white background, with a black border around it to reflect black in the edges of the bottle. Then, if you want, you can put some specular reflections on the side of the bottle to show form more, but you really have to use a softbox: anything else will look weird, because the reflections will show the shape of the light modifier you use perfectly.

Also, if you really want to learn to light glass, metal, and so on, Light: Science and Magic is the book to read

[jm_usmc]

Have you read this?

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/07/pretty-shiny-things.html

[DocFrankenstein]

A light tent would help

[bieber]

A light tent would help

It most certainly wouldn't, I'm afraid. A light tent is a solution for metal: for glass, it does exactly the opposite of what you want to do, and completely obliterates any edge definition.

[ebann]

It most certainly wouldn't, I'm afraid. A light tent is a solution for metal: for glass, it does exactly the opposite of what you want to do, and completely obliterates any edge definition.

Very true. I tried that and all I got was the light tent's white fabric plastered all over the bottle's brown glass exterior!

[ebann]

You're just going about it completely wrong for shooting glass. What you need to be doing is lighting the background, not the bottle. Typically, you'll do either a dark field glass shot, where the background is black, and then you light a bright white border around the background out of view, so that it reflects in the edges of the bottle, or bright field, where you light a bright white background, with a black border around it to reflect black in the edges of the bottle. Then, if you want, you can put some specular reflections on the side of the bottle to show form more, but you really have to use a softbox: anything else will look weird, because the reflections will show the shape of the light modifier you use perfectly.

Also, if you really want to learn to light glass, metal, and so on, Light: Science and Magic is the book to read

Thank you for this important tip! Will try to find the book as well.

[ebann]

Have you read this?

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/07/pretty-shiny-things.html

No I haven't! Thanks for the link!

edit: and from the pictures, it shows exactly my problems!

[DocFrankenstein]

It most certainly wouldn't, I'm afraid. A light tent is a solution for metal: for glass, it does exactly the opposite of what you want to do, and completely obliterates any edge definition.
I never said to light the bottle from all sides. :confused:

[ZGMF-X20A]

I was reding this yesterday, maybe you can try this :)

http://www.diyphotography.net/light-up-the-floor-a-floor-lit-table-top-studio-project

[bieber]

I never said to light the bottle from all sides. :confused:

Vell, that's kind of the point of a light tent. It doesn't matter how many sides you light it from: to get edge definition in glass, you need to have a distinct contrast between the background, and the area directly outside the background, and trying to light the bottle is never going to achieve that. Remember, glass is transparent, so the only type of reflections it will ever produce are specular. You can throw all the light you want at it, and unless it's coming from the family of angles that produces specular reflection, it's just gonna go right through it and move on to somewhere else. Generally speaking, that somewhere else is the rest of the room, which subsequently shows up in the glass reflections, as the OP was complaining about initially.

[DocFrankenstein]

Vell, that's kind of the point of a light tent. It doesn't matter how many sides you light it from: to get edge definition in glass, you need to have a distinct contrast between the background, and the area directly outside the background, and trying to light the bottle is never going to achieve that. Remember, glass is transparent, so the only type of reflections it will ever produce are specular. You can throw all the light you want at it, and unless it's coming from the family of angles that produces specular reflection, it's just gonna go right through it and move on to somewhere else. Generally speaking, that somewhere else is the rest of the room, which subsequently shows up in the glass reflections, as the OP was complaining about initially.
Again, you're assuming I'll backlight the bottle. There's more to using a light tent than to light ALL of it.

[bieber]

Again, you're assuming I'll backlight the bottle. There's more to using a light tent than to light ALL of it.

If you really wanted to, you could light just the sides, and if you could somehow keep all the light off of the back of the tent, you could get some edge definition for a dark-field shot. But unless someone was forcing you to use a light tent, there's no reason you would actually want to do such a thing, when you can produce superior results with less equipment. Light tents are nice and all, for some subjects, but trying to use one where there's no need for it, just for the sake of using a light tent, is just silly...

Also, to the OP, a quick Google search for "Lighting Glass" turns up a pretty decent tutorial (http://www.lowel.com/edu/lesson_lighting_glass.html). It's not nearly as thorough as the treatment in Light: Science and Magic, but certainly a good start

[Jim M]

Let me add another recommendation for "Light: Science and Magic."

[ebann]

I was reding this yesterday, maybe you can try this :)

http://www.diyphotography.net/light-up-the-floor-a-floor-lit-table-top-studio-project


Fantastic tool! It will make a great combo for my DIY lightbox!


Also, to the OP, a quick Google search for "Lighting Glass" turns up a pretty decent tutorial (http://www.lowel.com/edu/lesson_lighting_glass.html). It's not nearly as thorough as the treatment in Light: Science and Magic, but certainly a good start

This is a great link explaining the nasty specular reflections and how to use it to one's advantage!

Thanks to the both of you!

[bucket772]

Any chance on a donation of a case of this new beer for R&D AND a photo shoot?

[ZGMF-X20A]

Any chance on a donation of a case of this new beer for R&D AND a photo shoot?

Here too pls!

[Mark1]

Depending how dark the bottle really is... One trick I have learned is to cut out a shape slightly smaller than the bottles profile and cover it with foil. Place it behind the bottle so the camera cant see it. The shiny surface will reflect through the bottle giving it some punch that a white background cant. The beer in the bottle will keep it a nice amber.

[bieber]

Depending how dark the bottle really is... One trick I have learned is to cut out a shape slightly smaller than the bottles profile and cover it with foil. Place it behind the bottle so the camera cant see it. The shiny surface will reflect through the bottle giving it some punch that a white background cant. The beer in the bottle will keep it a nice amber.

To get a little more sophisticated with this trick, you can put a sheet of white paper on the background behind the bottle. Then, put the camera on a tripod, get the composition you want, and then take the camera off and replace it with some variety of light. Now the outline of the bottle should show clearly on the paper: just trace it, and then cut the shape out and discard the rest of the paper, leaving that paper cutout in place. This, of course, is only an issue if you want to photograph a light beer on a dark background. If you're using a white background, then the white shape's already there, and then some ;)

[ebann]

Any chance on a donation of a case of this new beer for R&D AND a photo shoot?

Here too pls!

Hahaha! You are all welcome... grab the next plane down to Brazil and come enjoy some nice homebrew Brazilian beer! My friend dropped at my home 2 cases of his bottled beer and many nice beer cups with his logo on it. And of course, I'm doing this gig for free... as in 'free beer'! :lol:

[ebann]

Depending how dark the bottle really is... One trick I have learned is to cut out a shape slightly smaller than the bottles profile and cover it with foil. Place it behind the bottle so the camera cant see it. The shiny surface will reflect through the bottle giving it some punch that a white background cant. The beer in the bottle will keep it a nice amber.

To get a little more sophisticated with this trick, you can put a sheet of white paper on the background behind the bottle. Then, put the camera on a tripod, get the composition you want, and then take the camera off and replace it with some variety of light. Now the outline of the bottle should show clearly on the paper: just trace it, and then cut the shape out and discard the rest of the paper, leaving that paper cutout in place. This, of course, is only an issue if you want to photograph a light beer on a dark background. If you're using a white background, then the white shape's already there, and then some ;)

I'll definitely try it out! He basically wants some images without caring too much about the background. My cousin is a PP expert and he'll be doing some work on it too. I just have to make his life easier getting rid of all that unwanted specular reflections.

[ebann]

Here's are my results from last night's gig. I used my 5D and Sigma's 50mm f/2.8 macro on a tripod. Shot in manual mode at ISO 400.

As an example of how hard shooting glass can be, the first image is an example of all the specular reflections that could end up on the bottle if I'm not careful. I shot the pictures in my living room cluttered with junk. It was shot at f/2.8 just to get a quick metering.

The second image is a more serious attempt after trying many different lighting variations. I could not get rid of the small light spot in the bottle as can be seen here. I set the aperture to f/8 to get good DoF and adjusted the shutter speed accordingly to 1/8s.

[ebann]

Here are two more shots with filled cups. I hope it is good enough to water your mouths! The "33" beer was exceptionally great! Please feel free to comment/criticize/praise!

[ebann]

Last but not least... my improvised studio. The red backdrop and table cloth were my bed sheets. The backdrop was taped to my glass windows. Some foam sheets were placed strategically to prevent unwanted reflections and create nice borders on the bottle. The 580EX was just a transmitter (i.e. it did not fire) to the 420EX on my right side at an off-angle to avoid the glare on the bottle's label. Unfortunately I could not get rid of some hot spots on the glass. It will have to be PS'ed later. Since this is only for web use, the quality did not have to be the best.

[tjongkristian]

IMHO, you can try bounce lighting instead of direct. Meaning, the light is coming the flash to a reflector and then bounced onto the bottle. If you direct a light toward the bottle, you will see a hotspot no matter how you diffused the light.On the other hand, you can always use photoshop to clone out the hotspot. Hope it helps.

[ebann]

I tried a shoot-thru umbrella but that didn't work because the umbrella got 'imprinted' onto the bottle. I also tried using a diffuser screen in front of the flash and that helped a little but also showed a little on the glass bottle. I did not try a reflecting umbrella... I also tried lighting only the background but using direct flash, and that also caused a hot spot. I tried putting the 420EX to the right side pointing into the foam reflector, but I didn't like the results (deleted the images unfortunately). I have yet to find a perfect setup. I gotta start reading more and studying the links above better. Thanks for your input.

[Mark1]

I don't like the blanket at all! If they are going to remove it then ok. But you should never have something like that as a floor. Hard surface is best.

Shoot at 100 ISO. Its not moving, So why such a fast ISO?

Only 1 of the three cards looks to be reflecting any light on the bottle.

If you dont have a way to fire the flash that is on the camera, if you take it off. Remove the Stofen and point it to the left and have it bounce off the cards. This will soffen the light. As well as remove the hot spot in the center of the bottle.

Glass is hard. Take some time and play with everything you have there. Change the positions and relations to each ohther. You will get it. But most importantly you will learn!!!

[breal101]

To get a little more sophisticated with this trick, you can put a sheet of white paper on the background behind the bottle. Then, put the camera on a tripod, get the composition you want, and then take the camera off and replace it with some variety of light. Now the outline of the bottle should show clearly on the paper: just trace it, and then cut the shape out and discard the rest of the paper, leaving that paper cutout in place. This, of course, is only an issue if you want to photograph a light beer on a dark background. If you're using a white background, then the white shape's already there, and then some ;)

Back in the film daze we did what you are saying, now you only need to put a reflector behind the bottle and paint in the result in post if the camera is on a tripod. We used to use a gold foil for this, again not really needed for digital since you can also change the color in post. An overhead light source works best for this.

[DocFrankenstein]

Flag the bottle from the left strobe
Keep the shutter speed at sync speed and see what you get, especially with the cold bottles.

And move the non-background panel a bit to the front.

[ebann]

Flag the bottle from the left strobe
Keep the shutter speed at sync speed and see what you get, especially with the cold bottles.

And move the non-background panel a bit to the front.

The left strobe (580EX on camera) does not fire. When I did try direct frontal flash, I got a very obvious hot spot. I tried to flag it but instead what happened is that I ended up covering the light needed to light the scene. You can see the small piece of black cardboard on the that I used for that. I tried pointing the 580EX to the ceiling, but I got TWO hot spots instead! Diffusing the 580EX make the hot spots larger.

The shutter speed was determined as follow. I did a full auto shot which resulted in f/2.8 and 1/60s at ISO 400. Since I wanted f/8, I lowered the shutter speed to 1/8s. In retrospect, that was a beginner's mistake, because the bottle is not affected from this change (it's illuminated by flash), only the darker background is. Hmm... if I tried the shutter speed at sync speed, I think I would only blacken the background more... is that desirable?

[ebann]

Back in the film daze we did what you are saying, now you only need to put a reflector behind the bottle and paint in the result in post if the camera is on a tripod. We used to use a gold foil for this, again not really needed for digital since you can also change the color in post. An overhead light source works best for this.

I have to try an overhead light source. I have no giraffe so I have to think how to do that. Should I use direct or diffused light overhead?

[ebann]

I don't like the blanket at all! If they are going to remove it then ok. But you should never have something like that as a floor. Hard surface is best.

I was going to use a black silky material for the table cloth and background but my cousin forgot to bring it! The darkest material I had was this one. The table used is my chess table so it was not a nice material to place the product on.

Shoot at 100 ISO. Its not moving, So why such a fast ISO?

I was in a delusion state because I thought that to properly expose the bottle I had to balance ISO/shutter/aperture. But flash photography is tricky! It's actually two exposures in one! I was worried about properly exposing the background, i.e. f/8, 1/8s, ISO 400, but forgot that the bottle was being exposed almost 100% by flash.

I should have shot at ISO 100, shutter 1/250s, f/8 and adjusted from there to get the desired background effect.


Only 1 of the three cards looks to be reflecting any light on the bottle.


The 2 cards on the back where used to give the white border outline on the beer bottle. I got that idea from the links above.


If you dont have a way to fire the flash that is on the camera, if you take it off. Remove the Stofen and point it to the left and have it bounce off the cards. This will soffen the light. As well as remove the hot spot in the center of the bottle.


The flash on-camera does not fire. I did not have an ST-E2 nor an off-shoe cord (which will be my next purchase). The 580EX was just acting like an expensive ST-E2 transmitter. I did fool around with direct frontal flash, diffused, bounced, etc. Now I know why flash on-camera is sometimes just a big headache for these kind of shots!


Glass is hard. Take some time and play with everything you have there. Change the positions and relations to each ohther. You will get it. But most importantly you will learn!!!

This was fun. I will keep on fiddling with this until I get it right. Thanks for the comments.

[breal101]

I have to try an overhead light source. I have no giraffe so I have to think how to do that. Should I use direct or diffused light overhead?

I use a softbox overhead slightly behind the bottle to eliminate the reflection of the source in the bottle. It can be done with a soft light from the side but it is a bit trickier to get it right. An overhead source is easier to manage IMO. Just one comment, I would 86 the bottle cap. I don't see a reason for it to be in the shot.

[bieber]

Definitely getting there, hope you don't mind if I critique a little.

Like has been said before, definitely shoot at your sync speed. Remember that as far as the camera is concerned, you want the room behind you to be pitch black, so that it doesn't register on the bottle. You might even need to turn off that overhead light that keeps showing up in the bottle, but I think shutter speed will probably take care of it.

Next, get the tupperware and plastic off your flashes. Their purpose is to send light up to the ceiling to light up the rest of the room, which we're trying to keep pitch black.

Now, I'm not sure why you put that reflector sticking out on the left, but it's going to make your edge highlights look uneven, and probably introduce some glare that you don't want: it should go. A good reuse of it would be to put it above the other two, also flat against the background like they are, so you get some nice reflections in the top edges of the glasses.

The really tricky part is going to be with the lights themselves, though. You need to light up just the edges around the background. If you want the background to have color, instead of blacking out, you can put a light on it, too, but the two lights really need to be separate. Generally, the way to accomplish this is by having the subject, the background, and the rim around the background all on different planes, with the subject closest to you, the background farther away, and the rim the farthest away. Then you can put a light behind the background and have it light the rim, and if you want to light the background, you can do it from below and slightly behind the subject. Of course, this would all be mighty difficult with Canon's wireless system. Did I ever mention how much I hate wireless ETTL?

And that's about all there is to it. Also, you can use either a softbox, or a rectangular reflector similar to the one you have on the left now, but placed farther away, to create some window-esque highlights on the bottle. The trick is to make sure you fill up the rectangle completely, because as you find before, any light modifier you try to use will "imprint" itself on the bottle, so it's important that it look like something natural, not studio equipment. Also, for bonus points, you can add black tape across the device in question to simulate window panes, and make it look just that much more natural.

[bieber]

Back in the film daze we did what you are saying, now you only need to put a reflector behind the bottle and paint in the result in post if the camera is on a tripod. We used to use a gold foil for this, again not really needed for digital since you can also change the color in post. An overhead light source works best for this.
Wow, that's clever. Damn, you commercial shooters are sneaky :O

[breal101]

Wow, that's clever. Damn, you commercial shooters are sneaky :O

I always try to remember that the layer mask is your best friend. Thinking digital as opposed to my film daze has opened up a new world for me. :)

[24Peter]

I don't drink... but I do have a lot of time on my hands...

Unprocessed shots (can do a lot to clean these up with Photoshop) and the setups.... (hope I wasn't supposed to limit myself to Speedlites...)

1. http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7571.JPG

Setup
http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7568.JPG

2. http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7580.JPG

Setup
http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7584.JPG


3. http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7626.JPG

Setup
http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7624.JPG


4. http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7655.JPG

Setup
http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/uploads/postuploads1/websize/IMG_7651.JPG

Had a couple more but can only post 8 pics at a time...

[ebann]

I like the first one best... but being a perfectionist I can clearly see the shoot-thru umbrella imprinted on the bottle's left side. I guess that the perfect setup would be two softlights, one on each side to get that nice straight line that shows up on the right side.

Image 4 has your room imprinted on the glass bottle. Image 3 is fainter.

Thanks for trying it out too! You gave me good ideas.

[bieber]

I like the first one best... but being a perfectionist I can clearly see the shoot-thru umbrella imprinted on the bottle's left side. I guess that the perfect setup would be two softlights, one on each side to get that nice straight line that shows up on the right side.

Image 4 has your room imprinted on the glass bottle. Image 3 is fainter.

Thanks for trying it out too! You gave me good ideas.
You really just need the opposite colored border, is all. Think like this, but without the glare (sorry, was working in cramped quarters)

[rohicks]

I shot this in my lightroom a while ago when i was first experimenting with a DIY lightroom.
I can def. shoot a better one now that i have more experience in product photography, and better equipment if i was to re-do the shot ;)

Not the greatest, but not terrible.
Two hallogens on either side diffused with a flash mounted on camera bounced off the side into white board to fill the bottle some.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/1579981989_d2483a9d36.jpg