Color saturation problems on D60

[carone]

posted 09 October 2002 13:37
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Hello
Question?
I’m new to Digital Photography and have question about the difference in color photo's between the EOS 3 and D60 my wife shoots with the EOS 3 and the difference in color is very noticeable on my D60 I seam to have a absence of yellow and my green's seem to be monotone? Do I have some thing set wrong? Or is there a way to compensate for the difference in the camera electronics. I have tried the AWB set up recommended by Canon to no avail?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Frank

[Cal Maier]

Hi Frank,

You don't mention what film your wife is using with the EOS 3. Also, you have to remember that the files from the D60 will probably need some tweeking and color correction just like color print film, or scanned transparencies would need before printing the photos. With the D60 exposure latitude is much smaller than with analog print film, and therefore would be more like the WYSIWYG exposures that you get when shooting slide film.

I haven't done a lot of comparative shooting between digital and film, and I do not own an EOS 3, but I would also suspect that the evaluative metering system on the 3 is more sofisticated than on the D60(just like the AF system is). I would imagine that this alone would contribute to a lot of the difference between exposure and to some extent the color saturation. Why don't you do some testing using just spot metering and then centre weighted between the two cameras. Also, you might try doing a custom white balance on the D60 and comparing that to the EOS 3 under the same lighting conditions.

I would think that if you still see huge color discrepancies after trying some of the things I've mentioned above, then I would check with your Canon Camera dealer to see if they have or know of someone in your area with a D60 that you could make some direct comparisons between cameras with, just to see if you have a faulty camera.

I hope that this helps you out and Good luck!

Cal

[carone]

Hi cal

Thank you for the input.

Comparison of digital on a monitor to my wife film shots it look like a lack of yellow in the digital, with the greens all the same tone (monotone) no light or little yellow colors.
I am printing out my digital shots with a canon S9000 and the film with a local 49-minute dealer.
We use Fuji 100 & 200 color film.

My wife noticed this problem when we were shooting Wolf & Snow Leopards in Montana last month but I just blew it off because it was only the second time I have used the camera. But now looking back at the entire photo's that have been taken I see a problem.

My D60 seams to have a gray blue colorcast to it.
We were shooting aspens in the sierras in no. Calif. on a beautiful sunny day I was at 100 ISO using AWB.

Also I have found a program called "I correct Pro 3" and "I correct 4" by Pictographic, they fix my problem fast but it is not the way to work around my problem. The camera should work right!!

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Welcome to the wonderful world of digital photography. :)

1. Are you using an ICC profile for your camera? Have you profiled your monitor? Are you using the correct prfile for your printer+paper? Pekka's wonderful LinearSharpen isn't right for the D60, so you might consider LinearPro Batch from Fred Miranda http://www.fredmiranda.com/D60_LPbatch/index.html.

2. Consider using custom white balance instead of AWB, but use a neutral gray card instead of a white card as the manual suggests.

3. You don't say, but I would recommend shooting raw format, as this gives the most latitude to fix problems like this that will occur. On a camera anything labelled "auto" ain't gonna work 100%.

4. I wouldn't expect identical results with digital and film. Different films have different characteristics and give different result - the CMOS chip in the D60 is just another kind of film. Apparently, the D30/60 have, at least, the dynamic range of slide film, but less than colour negative.

Regards,

[David Miller]

I don't know why, but digital camera manufacturers love having AWB as the default setting on the camera. Basically there is no difference between a film camera and a digital camera, only in the manner in which the image is captured. Have you ever purchased film with an "automatic white balance"? Usually film comes either as "daylight" or "tungsten" balanced. To get better color, set your digital camera on "daylight" for outdoor and flash on camera files. This will improve the color on most of your images. We use an "custom" setting for our indoor studio files, "daylight" for outdoor and flash on camera pictures, and "cloudy" for our files taken in deep shade. If you want more control you can always shoot "raw" but this setting really eats-up Microdrive space and computer space. Most wedding photographers I know save images in JPEG. The idea is to save work in photoshop. My studio handles hundreds of files per week so it is imperative to capture the scene or portrait as close to correct as possible, otherwise you spend all your time on the computer trying to correct files in photoshop. We try to "tweak" in photoshop, not correct major shooting faults. Compared to the CCD sensor, the CMOS sensor seems not to be as color saturated. We frequently add red to the file, sometimes as much as 18 points. We do calibrate our monitor once every week which is very important. Unless a new sensor is on the way, I believe most digital cameras will be using so kind of CMOS sensor in the future.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[carone]

Thank you Rodger

I am new to Photography and Digital and in a steep learning curve right now.
Love my D60, and I think my problem is with AWB and if I have time this weekend I will be experimenting with it.
Again I would like to thank you for your time and trouble to answer my dumb questions.

[carone]

Hello David

I have to admit I have not calibrated my monitors. Never really through about it, this is a hobby for me but now I am starting to get real serious about it, I do set up the paper profiles for the printer.
Also I have LCD flat monitors one on my Apple dual 1 gig machine and one on a HP 1.3 machine.
I use Adobe 7.0 with a canon S9000 Printer. Don't know if this makes a difference.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

carone wrote:

Thank you Rodger

I am new to Photography and Digital and in a steep learning curve right now.

Damn right! Two years I've been going and I reckon the curve is still getting steeper.

Love my D60,

Know what you mean, I still get that "I can't believe how good this image looks" feeling every so often with my D30 - mind you, doesn't stop me lusting after a 1Ds. :)

and I think my problem is with AWB and if I have time this weekend I will be experimenting with it.
Again I would like to thank you for your time and trouble to answer my dumb questions.

You're welcome, and there's no such thing as dumb questions.

Cheers,

[aneilson]

Interesting conversation on the film digital differences. You must appreciate, these cameras are the 1st cameras to challenge conventional photographic recording methods. Canon and the rest have many pressures to release these devices to market, all to get there 1st , getmarket share, make money.

Ive owned a D60 since May, taken thousands of pictures and framed some awsome panoramics. Yes the digital learning curve is hard, but heh would you rather be watching TV or calibrating your monitor with spyder with a photoshop 7 book under your arm..........dont answer that.

Anyway, yes digital is different, I feel we need to stop looking back to what a film looked like and forward to what we want an image to look like. How do I know that you see a pantone card the same as me? color is a completely subjective concept, just think through the process from CMOS to inkjet head, its lucky we get anything at all.

finished rambling..............long live digital

Andy

[carone]

aneilson

Thank you for your input. Like I said I am a beginner and I just like to get the best I can from my camera. Again I see what I see and some of the photos in this forum from a D60 are spectacular at least to me, I am not getting that kind of quality.
Maybe it’s the camera or most likely me.

Thanks Again

[David Miller]

Dear carone,
You have some pretty extreme gear for your digital photography! I have a Sony Vio laptop with LCD screen which is supposed to have the top of the line screen but I don't do any color correcting on it. I prefer the old fashionded CRT screen. Computer screens are like snowflakes-no two screens are exactly alike. For serious color correcting in photoshop the real pro's replace their monitors ever 18-24months. We color correct our monitor every Monday, using a Pantone ColorVision Spyder. Under "Image" in Photoshop we click on "Mode" and "assign Profile". When the screen is calibrated correctly and we assign "working RGB" profile our the image on our computer screen matches the same image as seen on our labs computer screen. So in otherwords, what I see on my computer screen would look the same as it would look on my labs computers. When we print in my studio I assign my Fuji Pictrography printer as the profile. This is with a windows system-your Apple system should be even better! I have been taking pictures professionally full time since l970. I read one comment from above that basically digital is different from film. My film experience really helped me understand Photoshop! I don't know any working professional that uses LCD screens to correct files. Of course if they do, it won't be the first time that I am wrong.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[carone]

Hello Again Dave

Yes have some fair computer gear. It is one of the luxuries I have after putting two kids through collage and getting married and off on their own with good job's so to speak.

For my wife and I it is like hitting the lotto.

The computer gear is not just for Photography, I have been in to computers for almost 40 years and use them in other hobbies I have.

I was afraid that the LCD screens might be a concern.
I guess I will have to consider getting a CRT screen, again this is just a hobbie and I’m a true amateur at this point.

My wife has a vio & I have a HP laptop but we do not travel with them, too much bulk and weight to carry on airplanes (would never put camera gear and computers with check in luggage).

I download most of my picture when we travel to a 20 gig Nixvue Digital Album and correct? At home when we get back.
Enough said I think I got your point

Thank you David

[David Miller]

Dear Frank,
I to have two kids, my daughter works for Monsanto and my son is in a pre-med program wanting to be a pediatric cardoligist(s.p.). Two months ago my wife and I went out west on a photo-vacation, the first vacation we have taken by ourselves since we were married. Didn't seem right not to have the kids along! We used the Canon D60 and downloaded all files to the Sony Vaio computer. When we got home we already had a slide show put together ready to show. Laptops work well for storage. We also take the laptop along to our weddings and download the files as we go. Before the night is over we show the bride and groom their wedding. This also helps with our booking because not many photographers are shooting digital weddings this way. My friend in Springfield uses a digital projector and shows his pictures on a wall at a reception. This causes a lot of excitement and I too may do this next year, beginning in January. I think if you are really serious about correcting files you should consider a CRT monitor. I'm sure you could find a good 17" monitor for less than $200. We use a 19"screen and we will soon go up to a 21" trinitron screen. We also carry our laptop along to schools and show various musical slide shows students to help our bookings. It really works good for this purpose.
Respec tfully,
David Miller

[carone]

Hi David

It’s been a long weekend experimenting with different things on the D60. Shooting in RAW and calibrating the AWB helped a lot.
But I Know you are right about a CRT, the cost is nothing compared to frustration.

It gets better with the kid's, seeing them on there own making there own decisions and growing in to fine adults, I know I am proud of mine.

I get the impression that you are professional or semi professional? Great.
My wife and I love taking pictures of Animals and have traveled to quite a few places around the world and the U.S. taking pictures of wild animals. Strictly Amateur.
I do Digital Video and my wife does the 35 stuff until the D60 came out now I am hook on it but I still take Digital Video I have a canon XL1 I just bought to take with us to Antarctica, use to shoot video with a Sony digital.
Thanks for the input. I am off to buy a CRT have too much free time need to learn to do something else. Ha Ha Ha

[David Miller]

Dear Frank,
I have been a full-time professional photographer for the last 23 years. At one time I owned and operated two studios, but now I'm just photographing out of our home, which we rebuilt three years ago. I no longer have a photographic staff but do all the work myself. I have a lot more free time and I make a lot more money doing custom settings.
Back to the D60! We had problems with the color saturation when we first left the camera on automatic white balance. Now the only time I would even consider using the AWB would be outdoors in bright sunlight. After setting the camera on "daylight" balance for most outdoor pictures and flash pictures the color saturation improved greatly. I Don't think, from experience, that the CMOS sensor has the color saturation that the CCD sensor does. It is important that one does not rely on the LCD on the back of the camera for color density or saturation-it is more important that one relys on the hysteresis curves or level curves. The level curves in the camera basically matches the levels curve in Photoshop, the left side of the level curve being 0 or "black" and right side of the level curve being 255 or "white". to control color saturation, after the computer screen is calibrated, one can grab onto the midtone control and increase the saturation by moving it to the left.
You mentioned RAW. I believe Canon has one of the best RAW systems going. You can easily adjust your contrast as well as color temperature with this software.
One thing never mentioned about the RAW program, is the easy way a wedding photographer can edit, color and saturation correct, and renumber and save to file. We carry 4 1-Gig microdrives to our wedding and when we come home we haven't much space left for storage. We also download the files to our laptop for duplicate files. After we are done editing and save only the files we want, usually about 300 files, we make 3-CD copies and erase the computer. The software shows + or - 2 stops of possible correction. From costly experience, we found out that the limits really should be -1 to +.5. Color saturation and contrast, which sometimes people get confused, is greatly affected by the exposure. The more corrections made, especially on a file that is overexposed, can hurt both contrast and saturation. The name of the game is don't use AWB and really nail the exposure, making sure the levels curve is spaced out and not bunched up at one end, and you should have good color saturation.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[BigAl]

I have tried the raw images but have trouble opening them with PS. All I the comes up is a gray document.
Any ideas?

[carone]

Dear David

Thank you for the straightforward information. Particularly from a professional that has been in photography for some time and has run into and worked their way through these problems and is willing to put up with and help new-comers. As I mentioned before, I really like my D60. I think it is capable of doing what I want it to do, as soon as I learn the things I need to know, which I know will come with time and practice.

Thanks Again David,

[Roger_Cavanagh]

BigAl wrote:
I have tried the raw images but have trouble opening them with PS. All I the comes up is a gray document.
Any ideas?

Al,

Have you converted to linear TIFF? The image should be dark in this case because there is no gamma correction. You need to use something Fred Miranda's Linear Pro to adjust linear images, or else uncheck the linear box in whatever converter you are using.

Regards,

[David Miller]

Dear BigAl,
When I first started using Canon Utilities RAW image converter I too had problems with no image showing up in photoshop. Assuming you have opened up and selected the files you want to convert and save, you will have three options to choose from in "save file". The three options are (1) EXIF-tiff(8 bit/ch), (2) EXIF-tiff(16 bit/ch), and (3) EXIF-Jpeg. If you choose option (1) or option (3) you should have no problems opening up files in photoshop. If you still do, I would remove and reinstall Canon Utilites and try again.
Respectfully,
David Miller

[Timo Autiokari]

carone wrote: about the difference in color photo's between the EOS 3 and D60

Hello Frank, it seems to me that you consider the particular film process to be a comparison/calibration standard, it is not at all like that.

Film processes do not, never, give anywhere near the correct colors nor saturation nor tonality. *Correct* here being the way the actual scene appeared for the unaided eye.

Digital protography however can rather easily deliver very accurate images, but the full imaging path has to be properly calibrated and/or profiled.

So your comparison standard should be the appearance of the original scene for the unaided eye at the time of shooting. Compare both the film and the D60 images against that.

There is no color saturation problem with the D60, it (very luckily) just does not ouput images that match the appearance of the particular film process you are using.

Digital image manipulation can rather easily provide you such a match, just a couple editing operations over the D60 images are needed for very accurate simulation of any slide film. But really this is not what we would like to have, it is the same as major degradation/damage.

What we should require from our digital cameras is accuracy: The colors of the original real-life scene like they appeared for the unaided eye. Such images are the best for most of the purposes and if we sometimes want to apply some special effects those images are the best starting point for such enhancements.

What you could do in order to experiment this a little more is to purchace the reflective Kodak Q-60 Color Input Target, it is a 5x7" print with 264 cleverly selected accurate color pathces. Take a shot of that target with the film and with your D60 and then compare the results... against the actual Q-60 target. You'll also need this target in case you decide to ICC profile your D60 but the target is an extremely good tool for visual comparison & manual calibration also.

[carone]

Well I started shooting in Raw and went to a custom Gray White Balance, bought a CRT Monitor and calibrated it the best I could and now my pictures are great and represents what I shoot right on?

Oh also I dropped the idea of what film or slide looks like, right now D60 color looks and prints out like I see it.

Love My D60,Still have lot's to learn.

Thanks One & All