Panning with Ball Heads

[psychonaut]

i really hope this is my last question for the day :shock:

what is the difference between panning base ball head like 488RC2 and normal one like 486RC2 ( never minding the ball diameter difference ).

can the 486 pan around in the same way as 488 ? is the actual difference only in having an extra ratchet and a graduated scale ? or once you tilt the 486 down 90 degrees you can no longer pan it around ???

[CyberDyneSystems]

A ballhead without a seperate panning bearing is a real problem if you intend to pan.

The difference is that one simply does not have a panning base. Imagine a tilt, swivel pan three way head.. without the panning point.. it simply will not allow you to pan .. period.. with a ballhead this is not the case. as the ball itself can rotate infinately,.. however.. when the ball is panning.. it is also fee to tilt front back and side to side.. at the same time.. the pressure applied to the ball to keep the whole works from "flopping over" will also be fighting a smooth pan.

My first experiences with Ballheads on a tripod were the Manfrotto grip action heads whcih do not have seperate panning actions.

...this is a big problem for any action photography, or landscape work where stitched panoramas may be of interest.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Take a look at this ballhead;

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=221095&is=REG

You can replace the threaded camera mount with a QR plate... like an Arca or Manfrotto RC2 ..

[Belmondo]

can the 486 pan around in the same way as 488 ? is the actual difference only in having an extra ratchet and a graduated scale ? ???
The main differences between the 486 and 488 (besides overall size) is the the 488's ability to pan (swivel). The 486 does not pan/swivel.

[Scottes]

IMHO, you really want the 488. That pan/swivel can be very very nice to have. I wouldn't own a head without it.

[TomC]

Is the 488 a good head for panoramics?? I've read something about the lens nodal point... is this head sufficient for that purpose??

[PacAce]

IMHO, you really want the 488. That pan/swivel can be very very nice to have. I wouldn't own a head without it.

Yeah, tell me about it. If I had known this fact before I bought my 486, I would have opted for the 488 instead. :confused:

[Belmondo]

Don't overlook the 486 for use on monopods. That's what I use on mine, and panning is not an issue.

I really love the fact that all the RC2 heads use the same QR plates. It makes life in the field a lot simpler, especially when switching back and forth between various lenses, the monopod, and the tripod.

[Scottes]

Is the 488 a good head for panoramics?? I've read something about the lens nodal point... is this head sufficient for that purpose??

No, it's definitely not sufficient for adjustment for the nodal point. UNLESS you use long lenses, which lessens parallax errors/distortions, and then the nodal point is not very important. The longer you go the less important the adjustment for nodal point.

The pan/swivel base is incredibly important for panos, IMHO. Yes, you can free-hand a pano and use good software to adjust for all the mistakes and you'd never know. But you're better off getting it right - or as good as possible - in the camera first.

A ball-head, on the other hand, is not so great for panos, but it still can be done. I'd strongly recommend a hot-shoe level, and very strongly recommend a bubble level on the tripod base or ball-head base to ensure that you are panning/swiveling on level.

It's really all a matter of how much work you have to do after taking the pictures, really. A pano head on a level tripod is the best you'll get. Free-hand is the worst, but it can still be done.

[psychonaut]

ok i did not realize you can interchange release plate systems. whats compatible with what? will anything on 3/8-16 work with anything else on same thread or are there any additional compatibility issues ?

do you just buy a regular ( no quick relase ) head and then slap a quick release assembly onto it ?

[Scottes]

It's the plate that he's talking about - the part that attaches to the camera or big lens. If you have several heads that all take RC2 then the plates are all the same. So if you have two RC2 heads then you also have two RC2 plates, and now you can permanently leave a plate on the camera and another plate on your big lens. Either will be ready to go on either head.

I have only 1 head so I have 1 plate. If I switch from my 17-40 to my big lens I have to take the plate off the camera and attach it to the lens. (It balances much better this way.) If I bought another plate I could leave one on the camera permanently, and the other would stay on the lens.

[psychonaut]

eh, i believe he was saying i can put manfrotto quick release plate system onto a giottos head ?

quickie question: what is the thread size on the Digital Rebel bottom, is it 1/4 ?

[Jon]

The Manfrotto quick release systems are integral parts of their respective heads, and Giottos can't use them. You can buy a Manfrotto 3157 plate, but it'll only let you attach it to a Manfrotto RC2-style head. OTOH, you can attach a Manfrotto 488RC2 ball head to 'most any photographic tripod out there, since they normally use a 3/8 x 16 thread to connect tripod and head. The most common (and used by DR) thread for head to camera attachment is 1/4" x 20 thread.

[psychonaut]

hm...

what can you tell me about this quick release plate system ?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=258767&is=REG

more specifically which heads will it go on ?

[CoolToolGuy]

The Manfrotto quick release systems are integral parts of their respective heads, and Giottos can't use them. You can buy a Manfrotto 3157 plate, but it'll only let you attach it to a Manfrotto RC2-style head. OTOH, you can attach a Manfrotto 488RC2 ball head to 'most any photographic tripod out there, since they normally use a 3/8 x 16 thread to connect tripod and head. The most common (and used by DR) thread for head to camera attachment is 1/4" x 20 thread.The Mafrotto QR system may or may not be the best around, but there is a way to use it with another brand of head.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=149686&is=REG

This is a QR adapter that goes on top of a tripod or monopod head and gives you the Manfrotto release system.

It is probably a good idea to use only one style of QR. If you are married to Manfrotto, this is the way.

Have Fun,

[Jon]

You'd need to make sure you get the mounting plates with anti-torque screws, otherwise the camera would be able to swivel around in the mount. It looks like it should go on any tripod head, but I don't see a mention of what the base thread is. I also don't know what its capacity is; too heavy a camera at any kind of an angle may be too much for it to remain rigidly mounted.

[CyberDyneSystems]

ok i did not realize you can interchange release plate systems. whats compatible with what? will anything on 3/8-16 work with anything else on same thread or are there any additional compatibility issues ?

do you just buy a regular ( no quick relase ) head and then slap a quick release assembly onto it ?

Yes,. I was saying that, :) ... and the 3157n is exactly the part that I have used to MOD a number of heads. :)

I've also mounted a 3157n to an ARCA plate to mak an instant adpater for my ARCA equipped head.

Most any QR assembly can be had with standard threads on the "female" QR side,.. including the high dollar Arca systems.

The 3157n comes with the larger standard 3/8-16 thread and the adapter insert-reducer to 1/4-20,.. so you can DEFINATELY use it with any head that has either of the standard threads on top. ;)

We have used and would recomend the RC2 for any camera lens combo up to about a 50-500mm Sigma EX in size (pretty damn beefy!) I'd say you could easily go a little larger too.. but your pushing the limit with the larger primes...

Ignore the dated image on B&H site. The newer plates (circa 2001) are better made and heavily rubberized on top (cork is long gone) they grip a body very well.

Here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=pagination&A=nextPage&Q=&catId=1&shs=rc-2&ci=1&ac=&al=&bl=&sb=ps&sq=desc&fi=all&com_319538_REG=&com_353219_REG=&com_353188_REG=&com_353164_REG=&com_353244_REG=&com_319558_REG=&com_353239_REG=&com_13684_REG=&com_303591_REG=&com_253527_REG=&com_341507_REG=&com_148999_REG=&com_353315_REG=&com_148997_REG=&com_148998_REG=&com_149001_REG=&com_63994_REG=&com_303603_REG=&com_245503_REG=&com_63993_REG=&pn=5) <=== is a page with many of the additional QR plate availble.. and this one as well,

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=303603&is=REG

[CyberDyneSystems]

The Manfrotto quick release systems are integral parts of their respective heads, and Giottos can't use them. You can buy a Manfrotto 3157 plate, but it'll only let you attach it to a Manfrotto RC2-style head.

Actually the opposite is true.. in almost all cases the QR assembly can be removed one way or another.. if they aren't simply attached via a standard 3/8-16 thread mount.. then there is usually one or more hex cap screws attaching it from the top down.

Of course.. there may be exceptions.. but I've yet to come across one in person.

In either case.. if mounting a QR assembly yourself.. be sure and use "loctite" to keep it "stuck" and really sock it in tight! :)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Buy the way.. RC0 is very nice.. but you should check these out in a Camera store.. the RC0 is like 4 time larger than RC2 at least.. it is a massive hexagonal shape if i am not mistaken :)

[psychonaut]

thanks CDS, some questions :

Q1: those anti-twist plates, do i need one? is the architectural plate for RC0 pretty much same as the anti-twist plate for RC2 ? it seems there is still a way for it to loosen if the plate together with the lip slides to the side a bit ... unless there is a separate mechanism to prevent that. if there isnt such a mechanism then that spotting scope anti-tiwst plate would seem to be better at preventing rotation ?

Q2: rubberized plate is better than cork ???

Q3: just because any head can have quick release system dismounted on it doesnt mean i will be able to replace it with another system right ? so i should get a normal ( non QR ) head with normal cammera attachment, this way i would be guaranteed that i can put on RC2 or RC0 or most other QR adapters on it ?

[Scottes]

Q1: The RC0 is really made for large cameras/lenses, and will work better than the RC2 if you do a lot of portrait mode. Otherwise, in my opinion, it's not going to work any better than the RC2. And you may find it's size to be a pain in the butt sometimes.

Q2: When tilted or angled a lot - particularly in portrait mode - the camera may slip and twist in the adapter. Cork does a slightly better job than rubber of holding the camera in place, but cork wears out much much more easily. I'll take rubber.

The really good plates are actually molded to fit the shape of the particular camera. Little lips will wrap around the front and rear edges of the camera so it's simply can't twist on the QR plate.

Q3: Not necessarily. Some QR systems simply can not be removed from the head. (CDS has already said that every Manfrotto he's seen can be removed, but this isn't guaranteed with other companies.) A "(non QR) normal" head means that the head has a screw which attaches directly into the camera. Almost guaranteed not to be able to install a QR system.

I strongly recommend buying a head with the system that you think you want. If you find that you don't like the system then replace the system. There's absolutely no reason to spend the extra money by buying the head and system separately, in my opinion.

[psychonaut]

ok what i want is a solution that has some QR system today, but such that i will be able to

1 - switch to a different QR system tomorrow WITHOUT having to buy a new head.

2 - upgrade the head, possibly to a different brand and still keep the QR system.

is that possible ?

am i getting this right, you are saying that if i get any Manfrotton head with QR i will be able to put another Manfrotto QR system on it ? but Manfrotto doesnt seem to sell any "REPLACEMENT" QR assemblys only "ADAPTER" QR assembly which use exactly the same attachment as a camera body does :

" This Hexagonal Quick Release adapter is designed as a heavy duty add-on to any existing tripod head. It comes supplied with 1/4-20" and 3/8" head connection threads, and also includes two "set" screws (to attach directly to legs). "

if, like you seem to be saying, it can mount to an out-of-the-box-QR head then the QR assembly on that head must have been attached with the same standard 1/4-20 or 3/8 thread ... are you saying this is the case for Manfrottos ?

i think my head is going to explode :shock:

[Scottes]

am i getting this right, you are saying that if i get any Manfrotton head with QR i will be able to put another Manfrotto QR system on it ?
Actually CDS said it, but I believe him. Given that they sell many heads with differing QR systems then this makes sense.

Go here: http://www.manfrotto.com/product/catlist.php3?sectionid=1&manufid=1

On the bottom right is a listing of Manfrotto's QR systems.

And then the answers to your questions 1 & 2 are "Yes"


i think my head is going to explode You're just thinking too much. :-)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Scottes,. can you take the RC4 release system off of your 490?

Psychonaut.. just to clarify.

I am not guaranteeing that this is the case with all Manfrotto ballheads... I was guaranteeing it for the Giottos.. which has a standard threaded stud,. and thus any QR assembly can be attached. I also know that heads like Kirk, Arca, RRS will allow factory installed QR's to be removed and replaced..

But I DON'T KNOW that this is true of every manfrotto head. I suspect it is.. but truly,. I don't know this for sure with those heads in particular. Sorry if my post was confusing.

re: RC2 and secure antitwist....

In addition to the rubberized top and stard threaded screw that threads into the bottom hole of your camera or lens plate.. the standard RC2 plates all have THREE threaded holes in them for "Set-screws" (set screws do not thread into the body or lens,. but in fact simply apply additrional pressure, creating a firmer lock)

I have never had to use the set screws.. but they are there.

I also have not purchased the different "antitwist" RC2 plates.. I get by fine with the standard ones,.. but they are there if you need them.

[CyberDyneSystems]

ok what i want is a solution that has some QR system today, but such that i will be able to

1 - switch to a different QR system tomorrow WITHOUT having to buy a new head.

2 - upgrade the head, possibly to a different brand and still keep the QR system.

is that possible ?

...but Manfrotto doesnt seem to sell any "REPLACEMENT" QR assemblys only "ADAPTER" QR assembly which use exactly the same attachment as a camera body does :

1. & 2. You can defienately find this combo.. but we need to make sure that like most other heads.. the Manfrotto WILL easily allow the QR that comes with it to be removed,..
as I mention above, I am not 100% on this.. and don't want to steer you wrong. By getting ANY head that is threaded,. you will be guranteed this is not an issue,.

Regarding Manfrotto "replacement" QR and "Adapter" .. you are simply taking this term the wrong way. The assembly is allway called an adapter.. as it adpats a standard threaded stud to a QR assemebly.. this does not mean the QR is an "adapter" between one QR and another.. ei: a 490-RC-4 head purchased directly from Manforrot has an RC-4 "adapter" allready installed.. it is allways called an adpater.

[psychonaut]

:shock:

thanx

i think i will simply have to unscrew them in the store and find out for sure if the parts i am taking will work with each other.

:D

[psychonaut]

The difference is that one simply does not have a panning base. Imagine a tilt, swivel pan three way head.. without the panning point.. it simply will not allow you to pan .. period.. with a ballhead this is not the case. as the ball itself can rotate infinately...
ok but the ball can only rotate infinitely as long as the arm stays within that upper circular opening right ? when the arm goes lower into that groove on the side you can no longer pan it if there is no panning base, right ?

[CyberDyneSystems]

Right. ;)

And the "pan" you would get from the ball (as opposed to a panning base) would .. well .. suck! ;)

[vroom]

Is the 488 a good head for panoramics?? I've read something about the lens nodal point... is this head sufficient for that purpose??

No, it's definitely not sufficient for adjustment for the nodal point. UNLESS you use long lenses, which lessens parallax errors/distortions, and then the nodal point is not very important. The longer you go the less important the adjustment for nodal point.

The pan/swivel base is incredibly important for panos, IMHO. Yes, you can free-hand a pano and use good software to adjust for all the mistakes and you'd never know. But you're better off getting it right - or as good as possible - in the camera first.

A ball-head, on the other hand, is not so great for panos, but it still can be done. I'd strongly recommend a hot-shoe level, and very strongly recommend a bubble level on the tripod base or ball-head base to ensure that you are panning/swiveling on level.

It's really all a matter of how much work you have to do after taking the pictures, really. A pano head on a level tripod is the best you'll get. Free-hand is the worst, but it can still be done.

This was also my question. It seems the 488RC2 would be the perfect tripod head if it works well for panoramas. Obviously the separate pan lever allows one to do level pans, but I'm wondering if the nodal point thing is much of an issue. What would need to be added to the setup to account for nodal adjustments? Do 3-way heads typically allow for adjusting nodal point?

[Belmondo]

This was also my question. It seems the 488RC2 would be the perfect tripod head if it works well for panoramas. Obviously the separate pan lever allows one to do level pans, but I'm wondering if the nodal point thing is much of an issue. What would need to be added to the setup to account for nodal adjustments? Do 3-way heads typically allow for adjusting nodal point?Normally not. That requires being able to move the entire camera frontwards and backwards relative to the pivotal axis. A normal 3-way head doesn't do that.

[vroom]

Normally not. That requires being able to move the entire camera frontwards and backwards relative to the pivotal axis. A normal 3-way head doesn't do that.

Good to know. So a Nodal Ninja or DIY variant is needed for any ball or 3-way head. I guess I'll have to search around for some options.

[PacAce]

Good to know. So a Nodal Ninja or DIY variant is needed for any ball or 3-way head. I guess I'll have to search around for some options.

You don't have to get that elaborate. You can use a simple rail long enough to allow you to move the camera back or forward so that the nodal point of the lens is directly over the tripod head.

But if you shoot in the portrait mode, use a normal lens (not wide) and have the frames overlap more rather than less, adjusting for the nodal point won't really be necessary.