Canon to release a G-2 model ?

[LogoPro]

Hello all,

I have been looking at the Canon G-1, and with all Pekka's images, he has me sold on the G-1. - Although I would love to own the D30, but who's got the cash for that - yikes :-)

**
My question follows ...

I've been reviewing cameras on Phil's site ( dpreview.com) and judging from the release date of the Canon G-1, Canon must surely be working on a new model of this camera, -

perhaps a Canon G-2 ?

Does anyone know if this is in the works, or if there will be a new model soon ? - When they release a new model, you know they have something up their sleeves, and are already working on a new one, but they never give that info out :-(

I will hold out in hopes they do. I see that a lot of the camera companies are now bringing out 4.x megpixel cameras now, - and I'm hoping Canon will be doing the same.

Anyway, thanks in advance,

Mark
WebFX2000.com
Flash Menus/WebDesign

[LogoPro]

hmm, how strange, 80 have viewed this post since last evening, but none have ventured a guess, I really thought people would be more opened minded, is this subject that taboo ?

SideNote: When a digital camera model is released - the company that released it is ALREADY working on a new model - that we know as a fact, as the world continues to turn, eventhough one just bought a camera, and wants it to stay new forever. I had this feeling when I bought my 2nd digi-cam... when I saw a new model released only 10 months later, it saddened me, but also at the same time it made me happy to see improvement, but why oh why can't you trade in the old one and pay a fee, and get a new model - wow now that is living in a dream world it it not :-)

Mark

[mpkirby]

They did release a new model. Its called the Pro-90.

Mike

[LogoPro]

Mike,

your response was "cute" but that was about it. Obviously you have no clue about Canon or their products. If you can back up your statement go ahead. The Pro 90 has nothing to do with the G1, it's not even in the same category. I wonder if you are just posting a an email because your are bored, or if you really believe what you wrote.

You should do a litte more reading before posting comments that hold no water, and actually give disinformation to others that are reading this forum.

The G1 and Pro 90 are 2 different products, and the G1 blows the 90 out of the water in every aspect.


Mark.

[mpkirby]

Little harsh, don't you think?

The Pro-90 appears to have the same electronics package and software base as the G1. It has a different optics package. (much improved one, I might add).

In my world, we would be done with the core electronics and software about 6 months before the product finally shipped to the customer. During that time we would transition into "varient" development. It appears that the 90 is a variant between the 70 (using the 70's design guidelines), with the G1 electronics package.

Its a pretty smart idea, if you ask me. But it is clearly the "next thing" that the G1 development team was working on.

I was being cute. But also serious. The real question is what is the team going to follow up the G1/90 package with? Is there going to be an upgrade to the physical package of the G1 (i.e. a G2 with improved optics, etc), or is there going to be an upgrade to the Pro 90.

Or would they rev the electronics package that both are based on (CCD/Exposure controls/ Focusing, etc) and release both an updated G1 (i.e. G2), and an updated Pro 90 (i.e. Pro90+).

Dunno. Its all idle speculation.

Mike

[gandini]

LogoPro wrote:
Mike,

your response was "cute" but that was about it. Obviously you have no clue about Canon or their products. If you can back up your statement go ahead. The Pro 90 has nothing to do with the G1, it's not even in the same category. I wonder if you are just posting a an email because your are bored, or if you really believe what you wrote.

You should do a litte more reading before posting comments that hold no water, and actually give disinformation to others that are reading this forum.

The G1 and Pro 90 are 2 different products, and the G1 blows the 90 out of the water in every aspect.

Mark.

Well, everything was going OK until the last sentence, after the comma...
I own a G1, and have not used a 90Is, but having seen Matthais' insect photos on this forum, I'd have to say he is working with pretty comparable equipment to get the quality he's showing.

But, back to your original, and first follow-up post. I think there will be a G2, just as there was a Nikon 990, 995, Sony S75, S85 and so on. Perhaps Canon is a little less into the chasing the tail antics of others, and will release products on a longer cycle. But later this year, or early next, there'll be a G2, no doubt. And it will be an incremental improvement over the G1, in some areas because Canon listened to all of us who gave them feedback, in other areas to keep up with the Nikons and Sonys and Olympuss. 4megapixels is a total waste in my opinion, but a big marketing ploy. Give me 6 meg or nothing! But give me more control, (let me not list all the wondeful things that users have said the G1 should do).
And why no replies? Because most people dont' care, especially on this forum. Read the posts for a couple of weeks, and you'll see we are more interested in images, galleries, sharing, discussing exposure, control, presentation, etc, than caring who's got a D30 and who has a G1. Pekka's most amazing images on his web site are still taken with a G1!

cheers,

[LogoPro]

Canon Pro90 - Effective Pixels: 2.6 effective pixels
Canon G1 - Effective Pixels: 3.14 effective pixels

data from: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/


I guess I *was* a little harsh, but after I wrote a paragraph of text, and you responded with that fast 1 liner, I just thought you were trying to tick me off, I guess you did :-) I'm no meanie, and sorry for my attitude. I also just got a bit disappointed in seeing so many people viewing my post, and not one had commented on it.

I will have to review the Pro 90, but I still like the G1 better, and yes, Pekka has the most amazing images I've seen with that camera - unbelievable. Also true - the statement about give me a 6.x megapixel or give me death - yes, - but that's the way it goes I guess - the camera manufactures probably can do 5.x megapixels, but they say " why give them 5 when they will beg for 4" - they could be putting so much stuff into their products, but they just keep one step ahead by holding stuff back, and putting it into a new version of the camera in question.

anyway, wow, so my comments finally got some answers, and that's all I wanted.

I know what you mean - about people being more into the actual images, and not the camera, - but as a future buyer, it would have been nice for people in "the know" to say "yup there's a G2, or model that will take the G1's place" sort of thing.

Anyway, sorry for my attitude, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

My post here is in response to both people that responded to my post. As of July 6, 2001.

Anyway guys, thanks for the info, I guess I'll keep my trap shut now I guess :-)


Mark

[mpkirby]

One possibility is that the "Powershot" group at canon is busy at work developing a platform that basically targets 3 margets.

Their first product was the Powershot S20 in January 2000 (or so...can't remember the exact date). They follow this up with the powershot G1 in the Fall of that year, and the PowerShot Pro90 is a couple of months later.

The product line would have a low end product that has the same sensor as the higher end products, but no manual controls, and a low-end optics package.

The mid-line would have a lot of manual controls, a better optics package, but still retain a smaller form-factor.

The high-end would provide a top-notch optics package with large zoom.

If the three share the electronics and sensor package, then you have quite the economies of scale on the most expensive part of the product (CCD & Electronics), and you can increase the price for the fancier optics.

If this business model holds, then Canon is busy working on the core electronics package for a larger CCD (presumably that is the most complex integration...Then sensor with the electronics.. The optics is presumably pretty much an independent problem).

They then can introduce a series of variants (low,mid,high end) based on the core.

Of course this is all pure speculation...and could be a bunch of hogwash. A number of problems with this theory.

1) Other than software, I wonder how much of the product is really re-usable from generation to generation. Would it be worth creating a reusable component, or is it easier to just build a new one from scratch.

2) The optics integration may be a bigger deal than I am giving it credit. (could be that lots of software changes based on the optics.

Mike

[oops]

Mark and Mike are both right on with their analysis of Corporate thinking. Bleed the sucker for as long as possible THEN release the "biggie". It all goes down to quarterly profits, which Japan learned from America. As long as the quarter looks good, don't change anything; if the quarter sags, get back on top. Japan for years would sacrifice quarterly numbers to retain a long term quality image and this is what put Honda, Toyota, and Nissan on top of Consumer Reports year after year. That all changed when they competed not only with products but on the worldwide stock market as well. Phil is the expert here, being a Professor of Economics, and I am just showing my long years of careful admiration of corporate competition. I could be all washed up, so don't quote me please.

To the G1. As long as the G1 is selling as fast as they can produce it I can't imagine Canon Research and Development being allowed to release their new "toy" no matter how good it may be. And you can bet they have not one but two or more years of toys already in testing, trying to slash production costs for their eventual "Opening Night." So the real question may be "Is the G1 still selling?", or "What did They release?", or "What are the numbers?".

I'll bet they ALL know what we want; that is a no brainer. It's a matter of How Do We Stay On Top This Quarter?

[LogoPro]

Can't agree with you more, my dad always has said that - companies are more than a model ahead of what you buy - they hold off and hold off, it's a never ending nasty circle. In reality, we are all buying obsolete stuff, if in theory or reality camera companies already have higher or more powerful stuff invented when they sell us their "current" model. Yeah it is sad, and we know it is the truth, but - yes I'll agree with you - it's all about their yearly profits....

Yup, sad ain't it ? :-)


Mark.

[mpkirby]

Don't be too cynical. Remember that a development group that doesn't release a new product is a cost center.

The powershot group can't rest on their laurals (sp?) They need to come out with updates and improvements (even if its a new product, and not an "upgrade" to existing products) in order to justify their existance.

If we see the 3 products (S20, G1, and Pro90) as being the 3 segments that the powershot development team went after, then which one of those is not doing well? Which one is feature poor, or quality poor, or over-priced??

Are there any under-served markets? Perhaps there is a segment below the S20, but still with the 3mp sensor? Like an elph-like product.

What about cost-downs for the existing products? I know we work furiously to reduce the costs of our products after launch. (we do mechanical stuff though, and consumer electronics may be different).

Then there is the 4mp, or 5mp boogie man out there. It will take exactly 30 seconds for the G1 & Pro90 to go from hit to flop if the competition comes out with a better sensor package.

It would be a big deal for canon to hit that mark first.

So there are 3 things the group is probably working on.

1) Cost down existing product line to maximize profits.

2) port 3mp package to higher resolution package for all product lines.

3) Build a new variant for an as-yet un tapped market (anyone have any ideas on what that could be???)

Mike

[amjbrown]

Canon are almost certainly about to release a G2, because I bought a G1 last weekend.

I have vast experience in this field - mostly gained from Psion PDAs. I bought a 3a moments before the 3c was released, and waited until the eve of the 5mx before buying a series 5.

Seriously though, from the reading I did to select the G1 as my first digital camera, it appears the Canon slightly lag the rest of the market, and then deliver a very strong competitor. They seem to let Nikon strut around with the 990 for ages before delivering something that could comprehensively beat the 990's successor. For 4.1 megapixels, Sony seem to be first off the blocks with the S85 - I think Canon will wait a fair while before trumping them.

If I am wrong, it will be for the reason above!!

[afly]

As the digital cameras on market get better in the sense of producing good-looking big prints, I think the R&D cycle will eventually slow down (which has actually already happened). The urge to buy better camera is not as strong with digital cameras we have now than with the ones we had two years ago. This means that the products must be built to last longer, especially mechanically.

I think Canon has quite simple strategy. They wait that competitors show their cards, examine their products (or read the reviews) to find out weaknesses and strong points. At this point, they have good basic set of technology and few prototypes. They check that where competitors' products excel, they are not far behind, and then make sure they are clearly better where others have problems. And Canon can wait. They can easily afford it.

G1 must be the fastest selling digital camera at the moment. Introducing successor will not be easy, and I'm sure they won't hurry it any more than necessary. I bought G1 just because every digital camera I had tried were lacking decent flashlights. With G1, even if it doesn't take my 540EZ, I got a camera where it's possible to
have proper flashlight. And I had anyway 550EX on my shopping list. This means that my G1 was sold because "it is not bad and it takes the same flashes than my SLRs." Just guess how much worse G1 could have been, and I'd still have bought it.

The 5Mpixel market just waits who is the first to offer competitively (against 3MP models) priced and decent product. Recently announced Minolta Dimage 7 may very well start the landfall: it's basically almost Pro90 with little shorter zoom (28-200), 5.2 megapixels and $300 higher price. It doesn't take more than one or two other manufacturers to get this rolling. Olympus E-10 is bit out of track, but I guess something like C-5040Z is just around the corner, and Nikon will certainly follow.

I think Canon's next interesting product release would be the successor for D-30, especially since Canon's exclusive deal with Kodak for digital SLR bodies targeted to professionals expired in May (at least this is what I've heard from several, usually trustworthy sources). Since D-30 was intentionally crippled from the start, the only reason for delaying release of less crippled body is that the successor will be more just D-30 with decent autofocus.

[DistantEd]

I watched a similar discussion arise shortly after Canon launched the XL1 camcorder, and again after the GL1. Years later, Canon has given no hint of retiring either of these models. If there is one thing Canon does very well, its keeping everyone guessing.

My guess is Canon will hold on to the G1 until Sony and Nikon introduce their 4+ MP consumer models. But, I wouldn't bet money on that.

[LogoPro]

Hi Distant Ed,

I hope you are wrong :-)

I want to upgrade my old Epson PhotoPC 700 ( which takes ok images, 1280x960), and buy a Canon. I just hope they pop out a G2.

You know how it goes, - you hold off, and they don't bring out anything new, buy one, and a month later the new model is out which is 4x as nice.

Now imagine if Canon released a G-2 model with 5.x megapixels ! - yeah baby !

( only in my dreams) - if they are releasing a new model - say in the next 4 months, - it will be a 4.xx model, - there's no need to do more than that, as this is what the current market bears.


Mark

http://www.webfx2000.com/studio-dv

[antonin]

The original post talked about the D30.
I hate to be pessimistic, but I think that a G2, or a Sony DSC-S95, or a Nikon 1090 won't change much.
Sure, they will bring 4 or 5 megapixel images. But, unfortunately, what makes the D30 and D1 pictures so good is the narrower depth of field. And it's clear that "consumer" cameras will still use these little CCDs and thus they will still have very short "actual" focal lenghts. And they will still produce these camcorder-like, everything-on-focus, pictures.

The rate between the G1's (or Sony's or Nikon's) lens and a 35 mm lens is 5X. That means that, unless you're at max telephoto and max aperture, most of the picture will be in focus.

The ultimate example is the Minolta Dimage7. It has a 5 MP CCD,with great sharpness and colour. But the images still look non-professional because of its' short focal length.

Clearly, they are not made for serious photographers.

Bottom line: when they say "35 mm equivalent" it means just that -equivalent, not same as.

[DistantEd]

Doh! Canon has announced a successor to the XL1, the XL1s. Didn't see that coming when I posted yesterday. However, its not exactly an XL2.

I agree that digital cameras are designed to be only good enough to keep us upgrading every 8 months or so. Its as if they tossed out everything they learned about camera design. EOS bodies are designed to be comfortable to hold, the G1 feels like something from the '70s. Of course you can combine the two to get a $3000 D30. Funny how a $300 Rebel body adds $2300 to the cost of a G1 electronics package.

[DWallach]

My recommendation: don't think of these as cameras, think of them as computers. Of course, new computers are coming out all the time and are better than the ones you bought last week. Your best strategy is to figure out the features you need and the price you're willing to pay. If you can find a machine that satisfies your specs, buy it and be happy.

I'd been waiting forever for a camera that supported the IBM Microdrive, had decent manual exposure controls, supported an external flash, and was within my price range. Canon happened to be the first to market with such a camera so I bought it.

Since I bought the camera last December, the price has been steadily dropping, and at some point the G2 will be released, no doubt with the next generation of image sensor, deeper optical zoom, and other upgrades. But, the G1 still does everything I could want so I'll probably stick with it until somebody releases a digital camera something like the Leica M-series (smaller rangefinder camera bodies with interchangeable lenses).

[ega1]

DWallach wrote:
Since I bought the camera last December, the price has been steadily dropping, and at some point the G2 will be released, no doubt with the next generation of image sensor, deeper optical zoom, and other upgrades. But, the G1 still does everything I could want so I'll probably stick with it until somebody releases a digital camera something like the Leica M-series (smaller rangefinder camera bodies with interchangeable lenses).

I agree. I have no intention of upgrading just to get one more megapixel. I'll probably have the G1 as my primary camera for at least another two years.

In fact, I just downgraded. I picked up an S110. The quality doesn't approach the G1, but I can carry it around in a belt-clipped pouch. If I'm out with the dogs, the G1, lensmate, filters, 420EX, tripods, B-300, A-28, etc are just not an option. :)

[davidcomdico]

After the chunk of change I dropped on my G1 (and accessories) I'm not going to contemplate a new digicam purchase until I can take a shot of the nite sky, blow it up and have a decent picture of Saturn's rings. If the analogy above to computers is apt, that would be in roughly five years or so :-)

[mutungi]

Why worry about the G1-G2-G3, PRO 90, etc.....just get on with the task of what you got the respective cameras for.......catching images!!