Fees for Shooting Games??

[cstewart]

This may get moved to business, but it is a sport shooting question...

Let's say my local baseball association asks me to photograph a game or tournament and to document the images via a web site which is then linked to via their web site, is available for parents / players, to view, etc. Print images could also be ordered directly from me...all the standard things.

What would a suitable "per game" fee be to charge the organization for covering the game and for the time in posting photos. Generally in a full game I would generate anywhere from 500-600 images, then pull 80-100 or so keepers for that for the web.

Also, let's say they wanted me to cover the full season or a larger group of games? Anyone care to share ballpark fees (pardon the pun) for something of that nature?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Chris

[prime80]

It really depends on what kind of print sales you think you'll get. If you expect really good print sales, then go lower on the fee. If you expect weak print sales, you need to make your money up front with higher fees. I would charge at minimum $100/gm to do what they are asking, and that's only if I expected strong print sales.

[namasste]

This may get moved to business, but it is a sport shooting question...

Let's say my local baseball association asks me to photograph a game or tournament and to document the images via a web site which is then linked to via their web site, is available for parents / players, to view, etc. Print images could also be ordered directly from me...all the standard things.

What would a suitable "per game" fee be to charge the organization for covering the game and for the time in posting photos. Generally in a full game I would generate anywhere from 500-600 images, then pull 80-100 or so keepers for that for the web.

Also, let's say they wanted me to cover the full season or a larger group of games? Anyone care to share ballpark fees (pardon the pun) for something of that nature?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Chris

Chris, this varies so differently from league to league, thats it hard to say for sure. That said, I'll give you my experience here shooting hoops, baseball, and soccer. I get paid $50/game to shoot with no edit, just a burn to disc then the group I shoot for does all the editing themselves. They expect a minimum of 75 images/game that are saleable images meaning exposure, color, sharpness, and action are all good to begin with. In addition, it's required that I capture every kid on the team I am shooting. If I get all the kids in the first 3 innings of play, I can move on to the next game. That said, I also shoot for two leagues where I have a season "contract". For them, I shoot only home games and any playoffs (which are negotiated separately). For the regular seasons home games, I guarantee that I will have multiple shots of every kid over the season and I charge them $60/game. At the end of the season, I provide a disc with images that can be used for any school purpose but cannot be resold or given to parents. In addition, I offer the parents of the athletes a 25% discount on print orders. I arranged this all through the boosters clubs. If they make playoffs then we negotiate on a game by game basis depending on what's involved. In all cases, I handle all editing and order fulfillment. I know it's not much more per game than when I don't edit, etc but I also get the entire season as well as print orders so it's a better deal for me.

In the first case ($50/game, no edit, leave when I have each kid) I am probably towards the lower end of the pay spectrum but it requires little work to get what I need so it's relatively easy money and takes little time. If you are to shoot one off games and do all editing and fulfillment, I think $40-50/hr is a reasonable rate and that would include time spent travelling and editing.

Hope that helps and makes sense. There are many here that have far greater experience and success doing this than I but this seems to work in my area so I run with it. In addition to the above, I plan on offering some specials this season too such as books and photoballs for coaches and seniors but I have not set pricing yet on these. I'll also take requests for the same on any athlete as long as its prepaid by the parent at the time I take the order (pre shoot).

Good luck with the work and have fun!

[cstewart]

Scott and John:

Thanks for the input. This sounds very similar to what I was thinking. Scott, in your first option, when you say "no edit" do you mean you give them images straight out of camera? No crop, no adjustments at all, etc. I assume you do a cull of all OOF and anything non-keeper that you did not catch while chirping at park?

[namasste]

Scott and John:

Thanks for the input. This sounds very similar to what I was thinking. Scott, in your first option, when you say "no edit" do you mean you give them images straight out of camera? No crop, no adjustments at all, etc. I assume you do a cull of all OOF and anything non-keeper that you did not catch while chirping at park? Chris, I shoot RAW so I will usually open in DPP so I can see each image then drop any that might be oof or so poorly composed as to be an embarrassment. I then close DPP and open photoshop because I convert from PS so I can apply my standard RAW settings to each image. This doesn't require me to actually do anything other than open and convert since the settings are automatically applied. I then burn a disc of the RAW and JPEGS and drop it off. I could get away with doing nothing at all, literally straight from camera images but I am just far too retentive for that so I have to do something. Just so you know, in ACR all that gets done is a slight bit of capture sharpening, and a slight bit of exposure comp if it seemed off at all. When I slight on exposure, I'm talking 1/3 or less. Again, this is all applied automatically.

[eigga]

500-800 images and then getting 100 keepers is not a great ratio....at least for covering large volumes of teams. You should be more selective or stop holding down the shutter :)

Everyone does the business part of this different. But I think you will be hard pressed to find and keep a league that pays you for taking the pictures.... actually most are wanting a % back. I for one dont charge up front .... but I know most dont agree with that.

[namasste]

500-800 images and then getting 100 keepers is not a great ratio....at least for covering large volumes of teams. You should be more selective or stop holding down the shutter :)

Everyone does the business part of this different. But I think you will be hard pressed to find and keep a league that pays you for taking the pictures.... actually most are wanting a % back. I for one dont charge up front .... but I know most dont agree with that.
Chris, I do agree with Matt on the keeper rates. I actually have the opposite problem in that I probably need to shoot more at games but I tend to focus so much on peak action that I can sometimes miss the secondary stories in the game. Anyway, I would say that for a prep game where you are only covering one team, 200-250 images with 150 keepers would be a good goal. That gives you enough sampling to get some variety but will force you to work on timing which I find leads to better image quality and a higher keeper rate. Others may feel differently but I think that is realistic.

As for finding a league that pays you, I agree its tough but it isn't impossible and all depends on how you position yourself. Going through booster organizations is a good way to get in. Know your audience before speaking with them and know what they have or have not done in the past and why. Basically be prepared and take the approach that you are there to be part of the "team".

[cstewart]

500-800 images and then getting 100 keepers is not a great ratio....at least for covering large volumes of teams. You should be more selective or stop holding down the shutter :)


Yes I am probably relying a bit too much on "spray and pray" while I work on my timing. Also, while a large percent of my images will be OK technically and action wise, I simply don't choose to put them in the "web display" as it would be too repetitive (same pitcher, same pose, etc.), hence a selection of only 100 or so.

As to getting paid to shoot, so far I have just been shooting on "spec" with the hope of making print sales, but also for the associations I am involved with as a coach and executive. I may have a chance to be the "official photographer" of our men's league and hence my question on fees and such.

[dmwierz]

Let me weigh in. If I'm giving digital files to anyone, I will always, and I mean always, edit the files (even if they tell me to not edit), which will include not only a culling of bad shots, but also a post-processing run to sharpen, straighten and tone the images. Shots right out of the camera are almost never acceptable without post processing.

My reputation is on the line with every CD I make so you had better believe I ensure whatever is on there is best quality.

Plus, when shooting a game and burning a CD, the prices discussed here are ludicrously (I just watched SpaceBalls) low. The cheapest I'd ever consider selling my work for when I knew I wasn't going to get post event sales (which is likely the case when you're selling a disk of digital images) is $200, and usually it's close to double that.

I'd say a couple hundred keepers is a good number from most games where the lighting is decent. Break down the per-person charges and deliverables and you'll end up with 10-20 "magazine quality" photo's of each kid, and lotsa times teams pool the money to buy a photo CD, and if this is the case, the per image cost is maybe $3 tops. Isn't your work worth at least that much?

My rule of thumb I tell people when this question comes up is take what you think you're worth and at least double it. When people are asked to value their own work, we all tend to WAY under price ourselves, which is a shame. You are taking pro-level images with pro-level gear and pro-level experience.

Think about it: it takes at least 3 hours to cover a game, including driving, shooting burning. Your time had better be worth at least $50 per hour gross otherwise you'd be better off staying home and cutting the grass, or whatever else you'd be doing instead of this. With gas prices being where they are, and the high cost of your equipment, even at $50/hr gross you'll be lucky to be around $35 net, which isn't much considering shooting this game is taking you away from doing other stuff.

So, Chris, whichever model you choose to follow, don't make the common noob mistake of under-pricing your work. If you want to be pro, act like one and price like one. Pricing is one of those paradoxical things - if you're TOO low, the customer won't perceive the value to be there and they'll be suspicious. This has been my experience over 20+ years in sales of all kinds of different products and services and it's been born out over and over again selling and pricing youth sports images.

[cstewart]

Dennis:

Great advice and exactly the paradox I am dealing with. I like to be the "nice guy" because I know many of these guys and have been with our minor associations for many years as a dad and coach, however "nice guys" don't make a lot of $$ for their time!

I have considered many of my recent baseball images as "testers" or marketing pieces and have had the benefit of some sales of prints to parents. Now I hope to cash in on this literally by stepping things up a bit for some of these teams.

[collierportraits]

Amen. A hearty amen to dmwierz! I see a lot of underpricing and not much overpricing...

[namasste]

"Shots right out of the camera are almost never acceptable without post processing.

My reputation is on the line with every CD I make so you had better believe I ensure whatever is on there is best quality."

I agree with this to a degree Dennis but there are situations where the folks you are shooting for are more anal retentive than yourself. In my case, the outfit that doesn't want post work done has their own methodologies and because their rep is on the line, they want to do all of their processing. if I go messing with images it makes their life much tougher. That siad, they heave very high standards so I have to get things right in camera to even have a shot of them wanting them. A little capture sharpen is acceptable and I shoot a little looser for them since they have their own crop standards, otherwise, I give them what they ask for. The old, if the man wants a blue suit, sell him a blue suit theory. In addition, I am very familiar with their end product and have a high comfort level in their post work. If would NEVER give unedited images to a mom or dad or anyone that I wasn't intimately familiar with their process and comfortable with their output.

As for the rest, I do think you have to act like a pro, price like a pro, and shoot like a pro to get treated as one. That said, every market is different and knowing your market is critical in how you price. Ask lots of questions of friendly photogs, AD's, and parents to help understand what your market will bear. I'll leave it at that (Dennis, I'm sure you know why..:lol::lol::lol: thank God this week is done!)

[eigga]

I have two options for parents... on is free they buy what they like. The other is $400 and includes a CD and a few prints for each kid. I have only had one team pick the latter ... but my profits are basically same either way. Its hard for a team to get everyone involved to chip $30-$40 yet when they buy their own they spend $125... go figure

[tkoutdoor]

Amen. A hearty amen to dmwierz! I see a lot of underpricing and not much overpricing...
Sounds like the underpriced ones have the jobs... :cool:

[dmwierz]

"Shots right out of the camera are almost never acceptable without post processing.

My reputation is on the line with every CD I make so you had better believe I ensure whatever is on there is best quality."

I agree with this to a degree Dennis but there are situations where the folks you are shooting for are more anal retentive than yourself. In my case, the outfit that doesn't want post work done has their own methodologies and because their rep is on the line, they want to do all of their processing. if I go messing with images it makes their life much tougher. That siad, they heave very high standards so I have to get things right in camera to even have a shot of them wanting them. A little capture sharpen is acceptable and I shoot a little looser for them since they have their own crop standards, otherwise, I give them what they ask for. The old, if the man wants a blue suit, sell him a blue suit theory. In addition, I am very familiar with their end product and have a high comfort level in their post work. If would NEVER give unedited images to a mom or dad or anyone that I wasn't intimately familiar with their process and comfortable with their output.

As for the rest, I do think you have to act like a pro, price like a pro, and shoot like a pro to get treated as one. That said, every market is different and knowing your market is critical in how you price. Ask lots of questions of friendly photogs, AD's, and parents to help understand what your market will bear. I'll leave it at that (Dennis, I'm sure you know why..:lol::lol::lol: thank God this week is done!)

Scott, you're right, and when they insist on receiving originals (even when they don't ask for edited files), I always provide a folder with originals and one with edited files. All the feedback I've received when doing this had been in favor of the edited files, though.

Also correct is how every customer has different standards and requirements. I have one client for whom I shoot fairly frequently who prefers erring on the loose side so they have option when they've considering publishing the shots.

[Palladium]

IMHO - if your giving the digital images to non-editorial sites (eg. newspapers and even newspapers are reselling prints that they receive for free) or organizations that your not participating in the profits with- that one sure way to go out of business.

On the retail side the money has always been in the prints - give away (eg. sell on the cheap) and you have nothing left to sell - when you have nothing left to sell you might as well close up shop.

[dmwierz]

IMHO - if your giving the digital images to non-editorial sites (eg. newspapers and even newspapers are reselling prints that they receive for free) or organizations that your not participating in the profits with- that one sure way to go out of business.

On the retail side the money has always been in the prints - give away (eg. sell on the cheap) and you have nothing left to sell - when you have nothing left to sell you might as well close up shop.

With all due respect, these are both fairly narrow-minded views. First of all, I believe we're talking about youth sports here, so there are no editorial sales to speak of. Secondly, with youth sales, in this day and age of GWC's all over the place, it is imperative for shooters selling into this market to find any viable revenue model. IMO, not doing this is a surefire recipe for "closing up shop". This is why it is also critical not to sell CD's on the cheap. Yeah, you'll be foregoing print sales (though this isn't always the case), so you need to price it in a neighborhood that will allow you to make up for some of this.

I've seen CD's from $150 to $400. $150 when they buy prints from the photographer and don't get the images (basically this is what it costs to have a professional show up and cover the game) and $400 for a CD of all the shots from an event. At either extreme, the price went over pretty well, although this season, with the economic slump we're in, there's been a little more resistance.

[eigga]

you need to price it in a neighborhood that will allow you to make up for some of thisOr be in the right neighborhood :)

All this really isnt that difficult... price your CD to make all the profit you need ... otherwise make it from prints.

[Palladium]

... with youth sales, in this day and age of GWC's all over the place, ...

GWC are a fact of life - let the parents of team members with cameras give away their files. I'm in the print business.

I see that my local newspaper is selling the prints that people can upload to their sports section.

If I'm not a partner in the profits of the prints I'm not giving away the files - end of story - YMMV.

[cstewart]

GWCs = ?? "Girl's with cameras?" "Goons with Cameras?"

[dmwierz]

GWC=Gals/Guys with camera (or, Geeks, Gophers, Giraffes, Golfers, Grommets, Gulls, etc).

Also of note: DWC/MWC = Dad/Mom with camera = PWC: Parent with camera

[namasste]

GWC=Gals/Guys with camera (or, Geeks, Gophers, Giraffes, Golfers, Grommets, Gulls, etc).

Also of note: DWC/MWC = Dad/Mom with camera = PWC: Parent with camera
not sure on the above but around here, groundhogs with cameras are killing the market. what's next, golden retrievers?

[mfr301]

I know kind of an old thread but I've been away from POTN for a while.

For youth sports, I do NOT charge to go to the games and shoot for the league unless the league needs me there for a specific reason for them. Otherwise, I attend and shoot for free, they promote my website for me to the parents and on their website, and I get my sales from the parents' orders off the site.

Another way is through the year I may receive a request from the league for photos for an end of season event they may have. I then work out that price WITH them so everyone is happy.

I'm looking at LONG TERM relatinships with my clients and not the "one night stand (pricing) model". HOWEVER, if the client is clearly a one timer, then they get the one timer price so don't get me wrong there. But, most of my sporting photos are for the long term relationships with the leagues. THey appreciate you more, respect you more, and promote you more. They also will use you longer over someone else trying to break into the league as well because they will remember how they were treated when you could have jacked up the price on them.

Just a quick thought.

Mike

[namasste]

If you can get the league to actually promote you, then hats off. Around here, it's policy that the HS's generally will not promote anyone but everyone has an equal opportunity to sell. That's why I have found it critical to beat the other photogs to the punch, so to speak. I make an arrangement with the boosters (not directly tied to the school so a little more autonomous) to cover a season. We lay out terms, services, and pricing up front. I always retain rights to sell to parents but will sweeten my deal with the boosters if needed by offering some discounts on prints. What I walk away with is a set # of games each at a game rate (which has been anywhere from $50-150) as well as sales to parents. The beauty is that I know I am being paid to be there and the parents look to my stuff first since they have a financial incentive. As long as I produce high end product, they have little to no reason to purchase prints from other shooters. This has gone very well and I was just solicited (yes, they approached me..nuts huh?) by the hockey and basketball boosters to cover girls hoops and boys hockey. I'll be candid, I get a 5 game minimum at $125/game + parent sales. It's so much better around here than spec sales which has become a very frustrating way to make any money at this. I'll also take assignments from MaxPreps when I know I am geting a game rate or it's a huge game where spec sales might work.

Hope this is at all useful. Again, what is needed and/or works around here might be much different elsewhere. BTW, if I am not getting paid to be there and it's a local game, I usually show up without gear to cheer the team on. This shows parents that you aren't just there to take $ out of their wallets but that you actually care about the kids down on the field. Don't underestimate the impact this can have. For me, it's easy since the local HS is only minutes from my house and I know most of the parents already anyway.

[transcend]

Let me weigh in. If I'm giving digital files to anyone, I will always, and I mean always, edit the files (even if they tell me to not edit), which will include not only a culling of bad shots, but also a post-processing run to sharpen, straighten and tone the images. Shots right out of the camera are almost never acceptable without post processing.

My reputation is on the line with every CD I make so you had better believe I ensure whatever is on there is best quality.

Plus, when shooting a game and burning a CD, the prices discussed here are ludicrously (I just watched SpaceBalls) low. The cheapest I'd ever consider selling my work for when I knew I wasn't going to get post event sales (which is likely the case when you're selling a disk of digital images) is $200, and usually it's close to double that.

I'd say a couple hundred keepers is a good number from most games where the lighting is decent. Break down the per-person charges and deliverables and you'll end up with 10-20 "magazine quality" photo's of each kid, and lotsa times teams pool the money to buy a photo CD, and if this is the case, the per image cost is maybe $3 tops. Isn't your work worth at least that much?

My rule of thumb I tell people when this question comes up is take what you think you're worth and at least double it. When people are asked to value their own work, we all tend to WAY under price ourselves, which is a shame. You are taking pro-level images with pro-level gear and pro-level experience.

Think about it: it takes at least 3 hours to cover a game, including driving, shooting burning. Your time had better be worth at least $50 per hour gross otherwise you'd be better off staying home and cutting the grass, or whatever else you'd be doing instead of this. With gas prices being where they are, and the high cost of your equipment, even at $50/hr gross you'll be lucky to be around $35 net, which isn't much considering shooting this game is taking you away from doing other stuff.

So, Chris, whichever model you choose to follow, don't make the common noob mistake of under-pricing your work. If you want to be pro, act like one and price like one. Pricing is one of those paradoxical things - if you're TOO low, the customer won't perceive the value to be there and they'll be suspicious. This has been my experience over 20+ years in sales of all kinds of different products and services and it's been born out over and over again selling and pricing youth sports images.

Finally, common sense prevails on this forum. That you for posting this.