White Balance Importance

[snapster]

How important is the white balance setting on a dslr. I've recently up graded my old rebel 2000 for a Digital Rebel, and I understand the relationship between iso, aperture, and shutter speed. What I want to know is what is the importance of white balance when it comes to getting great pictures.

Thanks for any help

[Jim_T]

How important is the white balance setting on a dslr. I've recently up graded my old rebel 2000 for a Digital Rebel, and I understand the relationship between iso, aperture, and shutter speed. What I want to know is what is the importance of white balance when it comes to getting great pictures.

Thanks for any help

White balance is very important..

If you try outdoor shots using tungsten, then the images will be horribly blue. If you shoot under tungsten lights using an outdoor setting, then the images will be very yellow.

Other than custom white balance or kelvin settings, white balance is pretty self explanitory.. (Cloudy, shade, sunny etc..)

Try shots using different white balances to get a feel for what looks best.. Personally I almost always use Auto when I shoot JPEG the odd time.

Of course, if you shoot RAW, then you don't have to worry about white balance.. Just choose the best setting at the time you process the image..

[Groundworxs]

I just started using the custom white balance and I noticed a big change. Auto is pretty good, the presets for cloudy, flouresent and the like are better, custom is even better. To set the custom it is pretty easy. Read the manual. If you are indoors under flouresent lighting for example- take a picture of something that is white in colour a piece of paper will do, or if you have a proper grey card it will be more accurate. Then go to the menu section find the custom white balance. It will ask you to select a picture. Select the picture you just took. It may then ask you to now change your white balance setting to read 'Custom' You are all set to go. Don't forget to change the settings back for other conditions.

Have fun

[Chris Mazurkiewicz]

When you have more than one light source from different types of light, AWB is the pits. Shoot raw and fix in post, or if you still want to shoot in JPG, shoot a white card and set WB off of that,
Chris.M

www.babyshmear.reach.net (http://www.babyshmear.reach.net)

[Groundworxs]

Good point Chris, also don't set your custom to lets say tungsten and then use a flash go with the raw idea.

[mdr]

I use raw using AWB and then fix in post processing.

[robertwgross]

What I want to know is what is the importance of white balance when it comes to getting great pictures.

It's about the same as in the old film days. If you had tungsten film in the camera and shot it in daylight, the same sort of problems would arise.

---Bob Gross---

[slin100]

As noted, setting the correct white balance is extremely important. This can be difficult in mixed-lighting situations, however. When possible, try to balance the light sources. For example, when indoors in a setting lit by tungsten lights and using flash to provide supplemental lighting, a CTO gel filter placed over the flash will color-correct it to the approximately the same level as the tungsten lighting. Then set the camera's white balance to tungsten and shoot away. The result will be well-balanced images.

Similar gel filters exist for color-correcting a flash to flourescent lighting, although experimentation may be required to find the right filter because flourescents lights often exhibit different color temperatures.

[Luvwine]

What is the difference between a "grey card" and shooting something white? I have an "expodisc" that I use for setting a custom white balance. I hear that "gray cards" are better than shooting something white. What is the difference? How woudl you use a gray card for a custom white balance and why is it better?

Thx,

-Luvwine

[robertwgross]

This is something that gets discussed often. Search within the last few days.

A custom white balance can be done from either a pure white card or a pure gray card. It must not have any color tint.

Exposure can be checked on a histogram using a gray card, in which case you get a single spike, or it can be checked with a three-tone card, in which case you get three spikes at certain places on the histogram.

Each card has its function.

---Bob Gross---

[Jon]

A standard grey card is a truly neutral colour, so your white balance won't be thrown off. Many "white" papers, walls, etc. aren't truly white, and when you try to use them for a custom white balance, the colour cast they add will throw your camera off. You'd use the grey card just like you would a regular white card; the difference is that the meter reading you'd take would be closer to the regular meter reading you'd get for whatever you were shooting under those conditions. If you were to try shooting a white card occupying part of the frame, as Canon's directions suggest, the white area may get more exposure than a similarly-placed grey card, and setting colour balance from a blown-out highlight would be an exercise in frustration. But the way you use an Expodisc is quite different, so as long as you don't use any exposure compensation, you should be OK.

[slin100]

A standard grey card is a truly neutral colour, so your white balance won't be thrown off.My research indicates that many standard grey cards are not spectrally-neutral. Grey cards were designed for setting exposure, not for white balancing. Nevertheless, a gray card should get you in the ballpark and may be good enough for non-critical use.

[robertwgross]

My research indicates that many standard grey cards are not spectrally-neutral.

Exactly correct. That is why I used the term "pure gray card".

Some gray cards begin correct, but then they age over time in light.

---Bob Gross---

[FlyingPete]

[QUOTE=slin100] This can be difficult in mixed-lighting situations, however. When possible, try to balance the light sources. For example, when indoors in a setting lit by tungsten lights and using flash to provide supplemental lighting, a CTO gel filter placed over the flash will color-correct it to the approximately the same level as the tungsten lighting. [QUOTE]

This can on the odd occasion be used to good effect, an example was a shot I took indoors under tungsten lighting in winter, it was cold and dimly lit outside, the WB being set for Tungsten.

When I shot an image with a window in the background, all appeared good inside, however outside had a really cold blue colour that accentuated the cold outside, worked nicely!

[slin100]

When I shot an image with a window in the background, all appeared good inside, however outside had a really cold blue colour that accentuated the cold outside, worked nicely!
Sounds like a cool shot!

In my case, I used flash color-balanced with tungsten to provide fill for pictures of the kids next to the Christmas tree. Using uncorrected flash would have made the lights too orange.

[Hellashot]

Even if you are shooting in JPG you can redo the tint/white balance using just about any post processing software.

[slin100]

Even if you are shooting in JPG you can redo the tint/white balance using just about any post processing software.
It can be difficult if there's nothing neutral in the image. If one has time, take a second image of something neutral in the same lighting. One can, then, apply the corrections needed to white balance the second image to the first image.

[Persian-Rice]

I love this mentality of "you can fix it later".
I really would love to see some of you guys shoot with a film camera with all these bad habits.

You need to get it right the first time. First, because you can never correct it very very accurately. Second problem is that the camera can actually kill the picture if the WB is very off(unless you shoot RAW). Third, and most importantly, you are a photographer, anyone can take a shot, crop it to hell and manipulate it on the pc.

Snapster, want to know what white balance does? here is a perfect example for someone like you who has used film. Incorrect WB is the same as using outdoor film for a portrait with tungsten lighting. WB is your film type.

Cheers

[xdjoynerx]

its best to shoot in raw i think, and let the canon converter software take care of it (its always dead on, unlike the camera), or just use auto.

i find the presets pretty poor for most conditions.

[FlyingPete]

I love this mentality of "you can fix it later".
I really would love to see some of you guys shoot with a film camera with all these bad habits.

You need to get it right the first time. First, because you can never correct it very very accurately. Second problem is that the camera can actually kill the picture if the WB is very off(unless you shoot RAW). Third, and most importantly, you are a photographer, anyone can take a shot, crop it to hell and manipulate it on the pc.


I second and third that!

A 'corrected' shot never looks as good as the correct thing, to take the first comment further, try and shoot slides, everything needs to be bang on!

[Jule]

Ok, newbie here. Brand New to Digital 20D and indoor Strobes for new portrait studio. I have got most of my settings down pat, however, the white balance has me. What do you recommend for the gray card? Kodak pak at B&H? Any simple steps to this either? I did try some white paper that caused my whites to be slightly blue. Tryed another whiter paper and it causes some yellowing in faces with some of the backgrounds (cream colored). If your lighting and colors are correct, what is the balance of the histogram suppose to look like? Even left to right? Mild peak? I definately need to take some digital lighting and camera coarses but this project was slapped in my lap in a quick manner. In the mean time I have recieved a lot of help from good people like you guys. Thanks!

[AcuraFan]

so basically, if you want to have the best WB under all conditions - you'd constantly would have to reshoot the grey card as soon as you encounter a drastic light change????

(for example, hiking around the woods, i'd take a custom WB; then in heavy clouds, take another custom WB; then when i encounter indoor setting - a cabin, i'd take another custom WB shot to the grey card). is that how you would do it?

<-- haven't graduated to RAW editing, yet ;)

[KatManDEW]

When you have more than one light source from different types of light, AWB is the pits.

I found that to be shockingly true in a well lit room with both flourescent and incandescant, and fill flash. Pictures came out dark, and it looked like the subject was only illuminated by a flashlight.


I love this mentality of "you can fix it later".
. . . . .
You need to get it right the first time.


That is the way I would prefer to do it, if I knew how.

[KatManDEW]

so basically, if you want to have the best WB under all conditions - you'd constantly would have to reshoot the grey card as soon as you encounter a drastic light change.

I hope that's not the answer... :cry:

[AcuraFan]

I hope that's not the answer... :cry:

i don't know - that was meant to be a question

[Quinn Porter]

I hope that's not the answer... :cry:

If you have a lighting change, you will need to reshoot the grey card.

[FlyingPete]

If you have a lighting change, you will need to reshoot the grey card.

Yes unfortunately this is the case.

This is why shooting in raw can be good, set the camera to auto white balance, and if necessary, correct it from the RAW.

[Jon]

Yes unfortunately this is the case.

This is why shooting in raw can be good, set the camera to auto white balance, and if necessary, correct it from the RAW.

Meanwhile hoping that you can remember what colour various key elements were, so you can try to get the picture looking like it would have if you'd used CWB in the first place. Which is more trouble, shooting a grey card or fussing around guesstimating at colour shifts in PhotoShop?

[aam1234]

(for example, hiking around the woods, i'd take a custom WB; then in heavy clouds, take another custom WB; then when i encounter indoor setting - a cabin, i'd take another custom WB shot to the grey card). is that how you would do it?

Not really. For outdoors (in your example) you either set it for Cloudy or AWB, and you are good to go. Even inside the cabin and shooting with the light from the window only, you don't need CWB (AWB works fine in this case). You really need CWB when you have mixed lighting.

Don't know anything about studios so can't comment on it.

[FlyingPete]

Meanwhile hoping that you can remember what colour various key elements were, so you can try to get the picture looking like it would have if you'd used CWB in the first place. Which is more trouble, shooting a grey card or fussing around guesstimating at colour shifts in PhotoShop?

That is an extremely good point! You don;t always have a good white source in an image to use as a reference, or even worse, you have some blown out detail that appears white, even though it isn't!

[Pekka]

Meanwhile hoping that you can remember what colour various key elements were, so you can try to get the picture looking like it would have if you'd used CWB in the first place. Which is more trouble, shooting a grey card or fussing around guesstimating at colour shifts in PhotoShop?

Your and Percian Rice's attitude is of course commedable, but all this depends VERY much on circumstances. If you have 1 light source type (or steadily mixed sources), 1 surrounding surface color, you do not move and the subject does not move then it might be good to get custom WB. But for my reality it is all about being part of a situation, grabbing a moment, expression or gesture and that does not handle well "hey, could you hold this card a while - thanks - a moment --- ok, now can you do what you did 20 seconds ago again?".

Auto WB does usually very good job and the rest is all about taste (I shoot always RAW). Do what serves the photo best - if realism does not, then change it.

[Tom W]

I found that to be shockingly true in a well lit room with both flourescent and incandescant, and fill flash. Pictures came out dark, and it looked like the subject was only illuminated by a flashlight.

You may be dealing with issues other than white balance. This seems to be more exposure-related.

As an aside, sometimes you don't want the WB to be perfectly accurate. Sometimes, a little warmth of incandescent lighting (in moderation) adds mood to, say, a portrait of someone sitting by a fire. On the other hand, I can't think of any reason that someone would want to preserve the stark greenish tint of flourescent lighting.

[Tom W]

Not really. For outdoors (in your example) you either set it for Cloudy or AWB, and you are good to go. Even inside the cabin and shooting with the light from the window only, you don't need CWB (AWB works fine in this case). You really need CWB when you have mixed lighting.

Don't know anything about studios so can't comment on it.

Agreed - in outdoor shooting, and with flash, I've not had much trouble at all with AWB. Its when artificial lighting is introduced that it can be inadequate. Now, the 1D2 does incandescent fairly well, but if the lighting is mixed, you will have problems. And, if it is very mixed, even custom WB may be a problem.

I've shot in bars and clubs where the ambient lighting varies drastically with little subject movement, due to the mixture of colored neons, incandescent, and candlelight. In that case, it requires post-processing unless you want everybody to run around the place with a gray card taped to their forehead. Plus, you will want to retain some of the color cast as it lends to the ambiance of the setting.

[Huckaback Photo]

Anyone here ever use a colour temperature meter or better still use it now to set up the white balance using the "K" setting ( k refers to Degrees Kelvin)
colour temp on a 1D mk 2 ranges from 2800 K to 10000 K in 100 k increments so you can play all day if needed !
In the days of film you quickly got used to which filter to fit on a lens, or you had a wasted set of pics. If you were feeling really flush or a working pro specialising in available light /industrial interior type shots, a colour temp meter was often part of the kit. a good one was not cheap.
In use take a reading to get "k" value (if you like)and then find the right colour correction filter for type of film in use ( pos daylight balance or tungten bal ) a interior shot with long exposure could often introduce one other problem that could effect colour bal (reciprocity failure)and i'm not explaining that here..

So our digital world has really speeded up the whole process of getting it right every time ?????
set auto white balance..take pic..look at screen, or better still, Laptop screen..thats it your done.
back home ...on computer..think i'll just alter the contrast /saturation, etc. etc.
and here we go again.. suddenly the colours don't look to good..
So get it right at the taking stage (or as close as pos) shoot raw if you prefer..
also make use of what has been mentioned above the good old 18% reflectance kodak grey card
by all means set the balance with it (as above)
meter it if you like and set this in the "k" value
most values can be easily found in books etc as a guide.
typical settings
candle light = 1900 k
house tungsten bulbs = 2800 k
sun light = 5200 k
flash = 6000 k
etc.

[Jon]

Your and Percian Rice's attitude is of course commedable, but all this depends VERY much on circumstances. If you have 1 light source type (or steadily mixed sources), 1 surrounding surface color, you do not move and the subject does not move then it might be good to get custom WB. But for my reality it is all about being part of a situation, grabbing a moment, expression or gesture and that does not handle well "hey, could you hold this card a while - thanks - a moment --- ok, now can you do what you did 20 seconds ago again?".

Auto WB does usually very good job and the rest is all about taste (I shoot always RAW). Do what serves the photo best - if realism does not, then change it.

Oh, I use AWB or a canned WB too, when the situation warrants (actually most of the time, since I'm usually in predictable lighting situations, and not in colour-critical situations). I think CWB may be less unreliable than AWB in mixed lighting situations, though. Any post-processing corrections are going to need to be limited to the area receiving a specific light (combination); if you get CWB of the dominant mix, you'll need to adjust those areas which are receiving one or another of the component light sources (full or partial shadow areas). If you CWB on the dominant light source, its impact will be adjusted for in the final capture, and you'll need to apply localized corrections for the other light types. If you AWB, you'll get a setting loosely based on the dominant light mix, as in the first CWB case, and have to adjust the same shadowed zones, but may need to adjust the dominant area as well.

If I was in a critical situation, and conditions were changing rapidly, I'd rely on post-processing based on a grey-card exposure after capturing the fleeting moment but it'd still be easier, all other factors being equal, to use the CWB.

[jimsolt]

When I shot an image with a window in the background, all appeared good inside, however outside had a really cold blue colour that accentuated the cold outside, worked nicely!
This happened because the "inside" was lit by a light source other than daylight -- probably tungsten. There are two ways to correct that. Use gels on the inside lighting to bring them to daylight temperature. Or use gels on the window pane to change the daylight to the indoor temperature. Given your apparent light ratios of indoor and outdoor light, there is really no way to balance the camera so that all looks "natural." I'm sorry I don't recall the gel numbers, but they are quite common and any store that sells such stuff would know what you need.
Jim

[AcuraFan]

tom w, aam1234: thanks for the tip. i sort of understand the CWB issues now

[FlyingPete]

This happened because the "inside" was lit by a light source other than daylight -- probably tungsten. There are two ways to correct that. Use gels on the inside lighting to bring them to daylight temperature. Or use gels on the window pane to change the daylight to the indoor temperature. Given your apparent light ratios of indoor and outdoor light, there is really no way to balance the camera so that all looks "natural." I'm sorry I don't recall the gel numbers, but they are quite common and any store that sells such stuff would know what you need.
Jim

Yes I was lucky with this that it was a good effect, the indoor light was tungsten. In that situation there was not much I could do to correct the light even if I wanted, I have had the simular situation where it caused an undesirable effect. The subject was mostly tungsten lit, but there was some daylight getting in that caused bluish areas on the subject, solution here block the daylight source.