Safe or Out? You make the call!

[cstewart]

Bases loaded, infield in, 2-1 game, potential tying run on third, late in the game, ground ball to short, throw to home, force play at the plate in order, and...

1. Ball just above runners helmet (sorry for the tough lighting conditions!)
http://www.cjscons.com/ghbaseball/jul9/bin/images/medium/IMG_5025.jpg

2.
http://www.cjscons.com/ghbaseball/jul9/bin/images/medium/IMG_5026.jpg

As I did not catch the exact defining moment, what would your call be? Safe or out? I'll let a few guesses go by first and then let you know what the ump called.

[Palladium]

well done

exif #2

Camera Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon EOS 40D
Image Date: 2008:07:09 19:08:38
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 150.0mm
CCD Width: NaNmm
Exposure Time: 0.0005 s (1/2000)
Aperture: f/3.2
ISO equiv: 400
Exposure Bias: 0.33
White Balance: Auto
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)

[Zoodles]

Hmmm.. force play you said - can't tell by this angle if the catcher's foot has lifted off the plate - that would be the defining point I think...

My guess = safe

BTW - I used to play in that league in the late 60's early 70's
ooops I guess I'm old!!

[LuckyStar08]

I'll go with safe too.

[kona77]

I think he is safe but I am more interested in the champagne bottle near the catchers right foot in #2.:D

[Andy1265]

I'd say safe.

[Zoodles]

I think he is safe but I am more interested in the champagne bottle near the catchers right foot in #2.:D

Yah - I noticed that too!!!! Wassup>??

[Darsk47]

The foot is closer to the plate than the ball is to the glove, but the ball is likely travelling faster than the runner.

Blue looking comfortable behind the plate, not even in a crouch....just waiting to hear the pop in the mitt...so he thinks it's obvious.

Check that the catcher held the ball....runner's out.

[cstewart]

I think he is safe but I am more interested in the champagne bottle near the catchers right foot in #2.:D

It was thrown by a parent anticipating a bad call from the ump.

[Zoodles]

It was thrown by a parent anticipating a bad call from the ump.

Really??!!

[sunbeast]

I'll say safe and the champagne bottle is an aluminum bat :)

[Zoodles]

That's what I originally thought but the OP fooled me!!!!!

[FlyingPhotog]

I'll agree with Darsk... O-U-T

[cstewart]

Ok enough suspension...from where I saw it, which was right next to the red team dugout, and the way they saw it, and the way pretty much everyone else in the park saw it, the runner beat the throw, however, just as Darsk nailed it above, the umpire did not see it that way and called him out. In my opinion bad call, but hey what can you do.

And yes, that is the bat lying on the ground, NOT a champagne bottle.

Now for some technical stuff. THis game was really challenging to shoot as the light was harsh at this time of day/night. If you shot from 3B side you were shooting right into sun. From 1B side, the plate was harsh sun at start, then shadows, then shadows but with harsh sun on fence and fans essentially creating a big backlight...also, fences are all high so unless you are on the field (not much room) you are always shooting through one. This shot was through the fence and I was pretty much right next to first base. If you want to see what I mean, please feel free to go to http://www.cjscons.com/ghbaseball/jul9 and view the whole series.

[Andy1265]

Prolly a "I should know better" question, but when shooting through the fence, did you have to remove the hood?

I looked at your gallery. NICE! I've been shooting sons little league games but usually find that I get caught up watching the action and forget to take pictures. :o

[cstewart]

Prolly a "I should know better" question, but when shooting through the fence, did you have to remove the hood?

. :o

Andy:

A big NO to that question as the hood protects the lens from the fence. I actually place the hood right against the fence so as to get it just the right spot to avoid any interference from the links, which is minimal anyway because of the focal length. The only time I seem to notice an issue is when there is harsh sun reflecting on the links I am shooting through, otherwise I have good success doing this. Of course I'd much rather be on the other side of the fence but in the spot I was shooting these images from, there was maybe 10 feet if that between the foul line and fence so it was not possible.

Cheers!

Chris

[cstewart]

I looked at your gallery. NICE! I've been shooting sons little league games but usually find that I get caught up watching the action and forget to take pictures. :o

Also that is one nice thing in that my son is not playing all star ball this year, so I have no emotional attachment to the games and can stay focused on the action. But I have found myself getting wound up a bit at his hockey games that I shoot, especially when he starts (he is a goalie)!

[dekalbSTEEL]

that's just plain lazy umping right there.

http://www.answerbag.com/articles/video/How-to-Be-the-Only-Umpire-on-the-Field/4bb6e271-a82c-58cb-ba1d-f200acd54b47

[cstewart]

that's just plain lazy umping right there.


I've had the same ump myself as a coach for a number of games. He usually does bases and he has made some horrible calls, so when I saw him come out for this important league game I cringed a bit. The ironic thing was that he was originally doing bases but on the 4th batter of the game the home plate ump took a foul ball just above his protector on his collar bone (fractured it I think) and he dropped like he had been shot and was on the ground in some serious pain. He left the game as you would expect and this guy came in to do the plate. Ouch!

[Lonnie]

That is a really nice sequence of shots. This looks like a tie to me..probably shoulda gone to the runner.

[pigtailpat]

Hey guys -

Umps have a hard job, I have 2 older sons, nearly 21, who do alot of umpiring for various leagues. It's a nice thing for them to do, and pick up extra funds, while going through college. It is a tough thing, and I worry about overzealous parents at times for them. At one game, one of my sons got pushed by a parent (he didn't tell me until way after it happened). This particular series of shots just demonstrates how hard it is to make a call. This looks like it could be either way (I agree with poster above re: tie).

BTW - very nice shots to the OP. This is the kind of action shot that has eluded me.

Pat

[cstewart]

Hey guys -

BTW - very nice shots to the OP. This is the kind of action shot that has eluded me.

Pat

Pat:

Thanks! I am not sure if you play(ed) or coach the game, but I have and still do in some way, shape or form since I was a kid (a distant memory it seems!) and I find this helps immensely in anticipating the play and what might occur, and then being able to get the lens there, grab focus, and snap away. Sometimes I get it, some times I don't! I also have been shooting my son's hockey games and I find that player/coach experience helps even more when shooting that sport.

Cheers!

Chris

[Justin_Thyme]

If the ump called it out he should have had a bottle thrown at him.
From what I see the runner is not just closer than the ball but much closer.
If anything it would have been a tie and that goes to the runner.
Also an error on the part of the runner, why sliding on a forced play, should have stayed standing and plowed through the catcher as its obvious the catcher is blocking the plate.
I coach little league and that is one of the hardest things to break the kids from doing is wanting to slide. In this case had he stayed upright there would have been no question as he is obviously bigger than the catcher and would not have lost momentum from the slide.

[cstewart]

If the ump called it out he should have had a bottle thrown at him.
From what I see the runner is not just closer than the ball but much closer.
If anything it would have been a tie and that goes to the runner.
Also an error on the part of the runner, why sliding on a forced play, should have stayed standing and plowed through the catcher as its obvious the catcher is blocking the plate.
I coach little league and that is one of the hardest things to break the kids from doing is wanting to slide. In this case had he stayed upright there would have been no question as he is obviously bigger than the catcher and would not have lost momentum from the slide.

Justin:

Yes, possible in major leagues, but at this age group (12-13) Baseball Canada and our local associations have a "Slide or Avoid" rule where a runner only has two options, slide (and they can't slide head first either) or do something to avoid the tag. You can not barrel the catcher over and it is designed to prevent injury. In fact if the runner had done that, the ump has the discretion to toss him from the game. At the higher levels of ball this is a possibility, but not here. Yes, it goes against what you ultimately want to do in some plate situations, but for this level the aim is to prevent injury.

[cstewart]

and if you look closely the catcher's foot is only on the plate and he is stretching toward the infield to make the catch, so the runner had pretty much full access to the plate. It was a bad call though! (IMHO too).

[Cdellama]

safe

[carpenter]

If the ump called it out he should have had a bottle thrown at him.
From what I see the runner is not just closer than the ball but much closer.
If anything it would have been a tie and that goes to the runner.
Also an error on the part of the runner, why sliding on a forced play, should have stayed standing and plowed through the catcher as its obvious the catcher is blocking the plate.
I coach little league and that is one of the hardest things to break the kids from doing is wanting to slide. In this case had he stayed upright there would have been no question as he is obviously bigger than the catcher and would not have lost momentum from the slide.

I don't see anything obvious that the catcher is blocking the plate. Looks to me like it's pretty open. Catchers' left leg could be well in front of the angle of the sliding runner. Secondly, MANY MANY U.S. little league divisions have a mandatory slide rule.

[SilverHCIC]

First, nice shots!!

I have a friend, whose son (presently in college) used to ump little league. It's not easy, and he said it took him a while to get really good at making these calls. Eventually, he gained enough experience to do it correctly. You do NOT need to see the ball initially; you listen for the POP as it stikes the glove. Instead, you focus on the bag to make sure the bag is properly covered and to be able to catch the moment the base-runners foot touches the bag. Last, (and you are allowed to delay the call) you check to ensure the ball wasn't dropped. If the POP occurs first, the runner is out. If the foot touches the bag first, the runner is safe.

BTW, while the ball is further away in the first pic, even young players throw a baseball with much greater velocity than even an Olympic sprinter can run on foot.

Regardless, great pics, and this was a tough call!!;)

[Fade2]

The kid is...................... SAFE!
Nice shots.

[moto]

Safe,, !

[Gatorboy]

Unable to make a decision because you are a bit early in your capture. Ball could be traveling at 60 mph and the runner is at about 9 mph.

Can't tell if the runner actually hits the plate with his foot -- so whatever the umpire called is the right call.

[Justin_Thyme]

Justin:

Yes, possible in major leagues, but at this age group (12-13) Baseball Canada and our local associations have a "Slide or Avoid" rule where a runner only has two options, slide (and they can't slide head first either) or do something to avoid the tag. You can not barrel the catcher over and it is designed to prevent injury. In fact if the runner had done that, the ump has the discretion to toss him from the game. At the higher levels of ball this is a possibility, but not here. Yes, it goes against what you ultimately want to do in some plate situations, but for this level the aim is to prevent injury.


I understand where you are coming from. We dont have that rule here and seem to sustain more injuries from slidng than running through the base. I do understand the concept and have coached for a year in a league that did have the slide rule in place. I didnt coach that league any longer after that year as coaches were teaching their kids to block the base because of it which provokes even more injuries. I am not saying for the kid to plow through them, maybe my first post sounded harsher than was intended. I teach my kids to run through the base looking ahead of it which doesnt go over too well when opponents are taught to block it to force the slide giving them the edge. As a coach it has always been my primary interest to keep it clean and fun but foremost, safe.;) When coaches teach dirty tactics, and its quite common Kinda takes the clean and fun out of it.

[dinanm3atl]

The foot is closer to the plate than the ball is to the glove, but the ball is likely travelling faster than the runner.

Blue looking comfortable behind the plate, not even in a crouch....just waiting to hear the pop in the mitt...so he thinks it's obvious.

Check that the catcher held the ball....runner's out.

From my day's umping little league that is what I would be doing :)

I vote OUT.